801. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #247280 by decius on September 14, 2008 at 8:37 am

Comment #247278 by GoatBoy36

That's funny, I've had to read a lot of philosophy books, and I can't recall coming across ether, angels, arcadia or Atlantis in any of them.

- Aristotelian philosophy: planets as heavenly bodies made of ether


- Arcadia refers to a Utopian vision of pastoralism and harmony with nature. The term is derived from the Greek province of the same name which dates to antiquity; the province's mountainous topography and sparse population of pastoralists later caused the word Arcadia to develop into a poetic byword for an idyllic vision of unspoiled wilderness. The Utopian vision, Arcadia, is associated with bountiful natural splendor, harmony, and is often inhabited by shepherds. The concept also figures in Renaissance mythology.

The inhabitants were often regarded as having continued to live after the manner of the Golden Age, without the pride and avarice that corrupted other regions. It is also sometimes referred to in English poetry as Arcady. The inhabitants of this region bear an obvious connection to the figure of the Noble savage, both being regarded as living close to nature, uncorrupted by civilization, and virtuous.



- Atlantis is the name of a legendary island first mentioned in Plato's dialogues Timaeus and Critias.
Many ancient philosophers viewed Atlantis as fiction, including (according to Strabo) Aristotle. However, in antiquity, there were also philosophers, geographers, and historians who believed that Atlantis was real. For instance, the philosopher Crantor, a student of Plato's student Xenocrates, tried to find proof of Atlantis's existence. His work, a commentary on Plato's Timaeus, is lost, but another ancient historian, Proclus, reports that Crantor traveled to Egypt and actually found columns with the history of Atlantis written in hieroglyphic characters.[8] Plato never mentioned these columns. According to the Greek philosopher, Solon saw the Atlantis story on a different source that can be "taken to hand".

802. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #247276 by decius on September 14, 2008 at 8:19 am

Comment #247275 by Fanusi Khiyal

You didn't answer. When did we get out from the State of Nature?

803. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #247274 by decius on September 14, 2008 at 8:15 am

Comment #247270 by Fanusi Khiyal

I need to ask you in which historical period you see us living in the alleged State of Nature? When did it end, precisely?

804. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #247271 by decius on September 14, 2008 at 8:11 am

Comment #247267 by GoatBoy36

Hope that's helpful.

Sorry, it isn't.
Philosophy books have been filled for millennia with absurd notions like ether, angels, arcadia, Atlantis etc.

Either you demonstrate that the State of Nature is what Hobbes said it is, and that it's our natural tendency, either we can use the available science, history and archaeology to dismiss the concept as preposterous.

805. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #247266 by decius on September 14, 2008 at 8:07 am

Comment #247264 by Fanusi Khiyal

Funny:

Stop dancing around the question,

no place for industry, because the fruit thereof is uncertain; and consequently no culture of the earth; no navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by Sea; no commodious Building; no Instruments of moving and removing such things as require much force; no Knowledge of the face of the Earth; no account of Time; no Arts; no Letters; and which is worst of all, continuall feare, and danger of violent death; And the life of man, solitary, poore, nasty, brutish, and short.

How is this dancing around the questions?
Those are the points that you and Hobbes have indicated as hallmarks of civilisation.

Yes, a violent death was more likely in the past, so fucking what?

806. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #247263 by decius on September 14, 2008 at 8:00 am

Laurie


Check your mailbox, mate.


Comment #247260 by Fanusi Khiyal

So, it's either palaeolithic or modernity? Speaking of false dichotomies.
You may want to check when art, commerce, navigation, writing and social structures appeared.

A hint: the Neanderthals, your cousins, already provided for the elderly.

807. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #247257 by decius on September 14, 2008 at 7:47 am

Comment #247250 by GoatBoy36

Progessive ideas like Islam?

Do I even have to answer this?

Simply saying that some of the most important thinkers in human history wrote their most famous works some time ago does not a counterargument make.

In politics and sociology, authors seldom survive their times, nor do they often write with anything different in mind than their own time and place.
Does Machiavelli refer anywhere to a system different from the Medieval Italian principality?
Does he ever claim that his advice should be understood as universal?

Don't waste your time posting ad hominem remarks about Machiavelli, Hobbes

I didn't. But I am glad that you are willing to stick out your neck and argue in favour of their ideas. I will be glad to discuss them with anybody who has the courage to openly declare his leanings.

So, you can answer my earlier post, where I asked Fanusi why we should start from a false premise like the State of Nature.

808. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #247252 by decius on September 14, 2008 at 7:38 am

Titania

PM pour vous.

A taste of baroque guitar with a hint of modern arrangement.

809. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #247244 by decius on September 14, 2008 at 7:10 am

Comment #247237 by Titania

I have checked what is on youtube. Unfortunately, folk is not my cup of tea, no matter how good the lyrics are.

I like a lot lute, archlute, theorbo, baroque guitar and (some) acoustic guitar, but nothing later than the first quarter of the 18th century. Another planet, I tell you, another planet.

810. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #247236 by decius on September 14, 2008 at 6:58 am

I share my birthday with James Randi, but he refused to pay me the million dollars on account of that.

811. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #247234 by decius on September 14, 2008 at 6:54 am

Comment #247226 by Laurie Fraser

812. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #247225 by decius on September 14, 2008 at 6:46 am

Comment #247219 by Titania

Thank you.

-------------------


_{I am 45}, but don't say it around here.


Edit - The subscript was screwing up the comment index.

813. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #247221 by decius on September 14, 2008 at 6:36 am

Comment #247215 by Fanusi Khiyal

The State of Nature is Hobbes's starting point. He argues against it in order to push his preconceived conclusions. It is by no means anything rooted in objective reality, since commerce, art, culture and community are concepts as old as mankind.

What's your point and why should we think a la Hobbes, if we don't want to reach his artificial conclusions?

814. Our scientists must nail the creationists

Comment #247214 by decius on September 14, 2008 at 6:17 am

Comment #247212 by hauntedchippy

From having attended the lecture Michael gave

Impressive.

I am also truly shocked

I am shocked, I tell ya, I am truuuuuuuly shocked. *runs around doing his best impression of a headless chicken*

815. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #247210 by decius on September 14, 2008 at 5:57 am

Comment #247207 by Fanusi Khiyal

Do you or do you not advocate the Hobbesian state?

If not, I have no reason to argue against it.

If you do, please state it unambiguously.

816. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #247209 by decius on September 14, 2008 at 5:55 am

Comment #247203 by Titania

OK, I'll try.

817. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #247198 by decius on September 14, 2008 at 5:19 am

Fanusi

I don't really need to refute wacky ideas such as the Hobbesian state, they have been refuted by history and the raise of democracy is testament to that.
Now, if you have a case to make as to why we should renounce established principles like the separation of powers, and most emphatically, take responsibility for your advocacy of tyranny, I shall be glad to discuss the issue further.

818. Our scientists must nail the creationists

Comment #247192 by decius on September 14, 2008 at 5:12 am

Comment #247177 by Quetzalcoatl

I will then demand to be appointed as resident soothsayer and begin to charge for my services.

819. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #247179 by decius on September 14, 2008 at 4:55 am

Comment #247173 by Fanusi Khiyal

I find it amazing that in a comment you strongly advocate a course of action or a societal model:

If you are going to protect your society when push comes to shove, you need to be sure that there will be many who will fight and die in order to protect your society. You need that basic, visceral loyalty. If your society doens't have that, be prepared to loose against those who do have that. It's really straightforward: those societies capable of mobilizing large numbers of their own people in a time of war, will win.

Then if someone objects, you deny the prescriptive nature of your statements:

So that we don't have to live by them. What is so difficult about this? Precisely because we don't want to live in that state, we need to understand it.

This attitude of yours is nothing short of doubletalk, and a rhetorical subterfuge designed to shake off responsibility.
In other words, you preach like a demagogue and demand to be treated as an analyst.
Sorry, but I can see through that, and I find it very dishonest.

820. Our scientists must nail the creationists

Comment #247174 by decius on September 14, 2008 at 4:40 am

I was half-expecting some fresh Robertson's trollage in this thread.

821. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #247164 by decius on September 14, 2008 at 4:20 am

Comment #247162 by Fanusi Khiyal

In the Hobbesian state

Machiavelli then Hobbes.

How can you seriously suggest that we take into consideration political outlooks that might have worked at the time of the Italian principalities or of the English civil war?

Isn't half a millennium enough time for your brand of extreme conservatism to come to terms with more progressive ideas?

822. Q&A with Richard Dawkins after lecture at UC Berkeley

Comment #247134 by decius on September 14, 2008 at 2:44 am

Comment #247128 by AllanW

we are not a free education service placed here for your sole benefit

I bet his soles are apter to learn than he is, though.

823. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #247122 by decius on September 14, 2008 at 2:09 am

Goatboy36

I won't have time for novels for a while, no matter how good they are, sorry. They no longer rank high in my choice of reading, except on vacation.


Titania

I think Galway has sunken to new lows. It's most incredible and rude to ask an audience of a secular cultural event to pray. I doubt that he would dare to do so in Europe.

Edit - I knew him for a theist because he claimed in an interview that god taught him to play the flute, or any such nonsense including apparitions and/or leprechauns.

824. Have We Ever Faced An Enemy More Stupid Than Muslim Terrorists?

Comment #247119 by decius on September 14, 2008 at 2:01 am

Comment #247112 by Diacanu

Rational_G-
And Mr Diacanu, a little off subject, but I must congratulate you on your total destruction of Teratornis, who annoys the shit out of me.



No thanks necessary, it was a pleasure.

Where, where?

825. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #246968 by decius on September 13, 2008 at 3:34 pm

Comment #246966 by Titania

Galway, a great performer and a rabid theist. :)

826. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #246958 by decius on September 13, 2008 at 3:06 pm

Comment #246951 by GoatBoy36

No sorry, I didn't.
I suspect that his experience as a war prisoner with the Japanese has somehow shaped his opinion, which is all well.

Others went through the same experience and would not advocate retaliation on civilians, though.

827. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #246945 by decius on September 13, 2008 at 2:47 pm

Comment #246933 by GoatBoy

No worries.

Titania said:

here are times such as with the Nazis or Imperial Japan where force may have been necessary, but even there it can be debated whether the force used was proportionate to the threat and whether there were other means.

This seems to me pretty far from a blanket advocacy of pacifism.
I suppose that it's rather uncontroversial that heinous acts such as the fire-bombing of Dresden and the nuking of Nagasaki weren't necessary and still overshadow the allied effort.

828. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #246923 by decius on September 13, 2008 at 2:29 pm

Comment #246915 by Fanusi Khiyal

Sorry about the misspelling of Titiana's name. Typo.

BS has said that she's a porn star, i.e. accepts money for sex. Hence "whore".

Goatboy misspelt it.

You see, prostitution and adult entertainment provide a social service to a sizeable part of the population which would be otherwise unable to find a willing partner. Over long periods, the ensuing sexual frustration can turn into something much worse. I am sure that you realise this.
I see absolutely no need to use a pejorative term while addressing a sex worker.

829. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #246914 by decius on September 13, 2008 at 2:14 pm

Some minor quibbles, if you indulge me.


I object to Brandy being called "whore", and to Titania being called "Tatiana".

830. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #246906 by decius on September 13, 2008 at 2:02 pm

Comment #246869 by Titania

This site is not dedicated to the destruction of religion by military invasion or violence or patriotism or the suspension of civil liberties for those who are religious, and all the other tools you advocate using to impose your world vision on other people. I think Richard Dawkins himself would differ with you there.

It seems that Richard heard you, but answered in the wrong thread.

Comment #246900 by Richard Dawkins

Instead of taking them seriously and being afraid of them, the right way to deal with these Islamic morons is to LAUGH at them

.



Comment #246902 by GoatBoy36

I'm always quite amused when people start saying that force should never be used to defend ourselves, no sir, never ever .

Who said or implied any such thing?

831. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #246892 by decius on September 13, 2008 at 1:45 pm

Comment #246888 by Hellene


I gather you didn't watch Beyond Belief 2006 - there is enough Atran's inanity there to make your antennae fall off from overstimulation.

Edit- The whole conference video is several hours long.

832. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #246877 by decius on September 13, 2008 at 1:15 pm

Comment #246876 by GoatBoy36

Little time, but I'll do what I can.

Edit- You edited as well, and the sense of your words is now clearer.
Be reassured that when it comes to the threat of Islam and obscurantism that the west is facing, I am by all means a hard-liner.
That doesn't mean that I am ready support the steamrollering over the founding principles of western civilisation.

833. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #246873 by decius on September 13, 2008 at 1:07 pm

Fanusi

I will be glad to discuss any theory as soon as you renounce your role as resident verbal contortionist. I find it useless to argue unless ambiguities are removed from the table, first.

Roger Stanyard asked you:

Who do you propose we kill?

To which you replied:

Whomever we need to. And it's "whom do you suggest".

This is unequivocally prescriptive and not pertaining any hypothetical discussion of an abstract theory.

Similarly ambiguous and self-contradictory is the reinterpretation that you gave of your earlier statement regarding the code of honour.

834. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #246840 by decius on September 13, 2008 at 11:33 am

Comment #246839 by Fanusi Khiyal

Out of pure fairness, allow me to refute BS when I see it.

I feel rather comfortable onto the moral high horse of western values, if you don't mind.

835. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #246838 by decius on September 13, 2008 at 11:27 am

Comment #246832 by Fanusi Khiyal

Sorry, but you keep on using phrases like 'will be desperately necessary', 'whomever we need to', 'the more willing you are to use those drastic measures, the less likely you will have to do so' ( I don't have time to dig up more, but they are plentiful in your writing).

That sounds very prescriptive to me.

836. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #246831 by decius on September 13, 2008 at 11:01 am

Comment #246828 by Fanusi Khiyal

And you call that non-prescriptive?

837. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #246822 by decius on September 13, 2008 at 10:28 am

Comment #246817 by Fanusi Khiyal


In other words, you want us to become like those that you despise, and that we live by a "code of honour" - rather than by the law - in order to destroy them more effectively.

Then what? Enjoy our rediscovered barbarity and plunge into a rerun of the Middle Ages for a millennium or so?


This is what you said earlier:

The trouble is that this is refuted by the facts. We are seeing such a widespread capitulation by our cultural institutions in the face of Islam's attack. That's the 'tragedy of the commons' problem: from a rational actor's point of view, it makes just that bit more sense to wait for the other guy to stick his neck out first. Go back and read the first leaflet o the White Rose in Nazi Germany. You'll see exactly the same thing. That is why rational self-interest - as it's commonly understood - can't be a substitute for a code of ethics or a code of honor.

838. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #246800 by decius on September 13, 2008 at 8:22 am

This is really interesting.

Earlier, Fanusi was advocating some fanciful code of honour. I checked and rechecked, but said concept appears to be missing in western jurisprudence and in moral philosophy, and I began to wonder where he might have learnt of such thing.

Later, he went on to argue in favour of killing "whomever we need to" and, suddenly, all started to make sense.
I heard all that before! From the Italian mafia, of course!

839. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #245699 by decius on September 11, 2008 at 10:23 am

Comment #245686 by Sciros

Provide some criticism that isn't unfounded

Well, I broadly did and you conceded some of it earlier.

Fair enough. Make a solid case for the regress and I think we'll have a worthwhile conversation.

I will gladly expand of it, but right now I have to pull a Robertson because my rendering has finished and, by extension, my break from work.
I will pick up from here tomorrow - many apologies.

That's true, however you manage both:

You are right, that one was poorly phrased.

840. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #245673 by decius on September 11, 2008 at 9:44 am

Comment #245670 by Sciros

don't confuse thinking sensibly with nationalism.

I don't, but it is pretty clear that you don't take any criticism of the US well, be it founded or unfounded. That's a hallmark of nationalism.

the democracies of the world haven't stopped advancing.

That's arguable. While in certain fields there are advances, I don't see why we should not complain against regress when we spot it, and try to reverse the process for the common good.

Claiming post-modernism is any sort of "problem" is retarded. It may be a stupid outlook, but there's plenty of other stupid outlooks to go around

How deep.

Contrary to other outlooks, Post-Modernism has managed to infiltrate academia, and when parts of the intelligentsia fall for nonsense a whole lot of concurrent problems arise.
If you want, I can point you to some informative readings on this matter, which are neither alarmist, nor unfounded.

Let's leave the problems of 'non-democracies' for them to solve, we have our own set to care about.

Not a day has gone by ever that someone hasn't gone all "gloom and doom" because of some isolated problems that he/she sees as symptoms of the world being a hellhole.

I leave this manichean world-view to the simpletons, thank you. Being critical of select aspects of western culture doesn't amount to blanket criticism or to advocate doomsday scenarios.

841. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #245663 by decius on September 11, 2008 at 9:11 am

Comment #245648 by Sciros

I mean that there are a number of fields in which progress has been hampered by faulty ideologies such as Post-modernism, Political Correctness, unbridled multiculturalism, and that we are experiencing regress with regard to freedom of the press, science budgets, public education etc.
The popular fascination with values that run counter to the Enlightenment can also be seen as a major regress.

Now, if your nationalism blinds you to all this, feel free to call "asses" those who dare pointing it out. I couldn't care less.

842. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #245642 by decius on September 11, 2008 at 8:31 am

I would say that, in general, western democracies aren't faring well, lately, and the US is leading the march backwards.

843. What does atheism say about the purpose (or the meaning) of life?

Comment #245528 by decius on September 11, 2008 at 3:58 am

Comment #245524 by David Kragt

Let me try to explain again.

Thank you, there is absolutely no need that you take upon yourself the herculean task of thinking, particularly on our behalf.

844. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #245414 by decius on September 10, 2008 at 4:58 pm

Comment #245412 by Hellene

1973, I slept under the redwood in the second photo.

Surely, you meant to say that you slept with the redwood in the second photo.

It all started with an innocent hug, then things got steamier.

845. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #245402 by decius on September 10, 2008 at 3:56 pm

Comment #245401 by secondsoprano

Excellent point.

846. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #245395 by decius on September 10, 2008 at 3:39 pm

Laurie

Your avatar may freak socialists out.

847. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #245388 by decius on September 10, 2008 at 3:23 pm

1758. Comment #245320 by Fanusi Khiyal

decius, have you ever read "The Gulag Archipelago"? No? Well, it would be worth your while.

Yes, I did.
An excellent piece of literature and a very vivid recount, why?

Do you really think that a gun would have saved Soltzenitchin?

Does he claim as much? I don't think so.
A violent reaction to the secret police would have got him killed, and we would have lost him and his novel.

848. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #245381 by decius on September 10, 2008 at 3:03 pm

Comment #245369 by Steve Zara

Just to illustrate the kind of guy I am, I also went swimming with my wallet in my swimming trunks pocket.

The hat! Did you keep the hat, too?

849. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #245376 by decius on September 10, 2008 at 2:57 pm

Comment #245368 by al-rawandi

Come on, al, geez.

Spotting fallacies is a national sport, here. It implies no malice on either side.
How could I possibly know that you skipped a line, when you replied directly to it just a short while ago?

850. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #245366 by decius on September 10, 2008 at 2:51 pm

Comment #245362 by Gregg Townsend

Of course, Gregg.

I hope that you won't rat me out to teratornis.