801. Fleabytes

Comment #143049 by Vaal on March 13, 2008 at 11:46 am

Irate_atheist

So, David, why do you not believe in Zeus? Or Thor? Or Allah? Or Baal? Or Ganesha?

Interesting point. I have always wondered, if you believe that one God exists, then why not ten, or a hundred, or an infinite number of Gods. Maybe all quark particles are Gods? What does that make an anti-quark?

Does David believe more devoutly than an Aztec who is sacrificing his child to the Sun God? Would he sacrifice his child to placate his God? What would that Aztec father think of David. Would he put him to death as a blasphemer or heretic? Who is the true believer?

My biggest question is Why believe in a God at all. What is God? In the Ice ages, they revered the animals they hunted, as they depended on them for there very existence. You can see ample evidence of this in the caves at Lascaux, where the Shamans painted them in reverence over 16,000 years ago.

The Egyptians, the Aztecs, all depended on the harvests and attributed the seasons, the weather to their Gods. If they had a bad harvest then they had sinned against the Gods. What was the benefit to the the Priests? They had a free lunch and power over their communities, as what more power could they have than to threaten the unruly with eternal damnation.

What of people who lived by a volcano that erupts once every 1000 years. They would worship the volcano as a God, and should the volcano erupt, then the people had sinned. Of course, the volcano would just erupt when its magma chamber filled, as it had for millennia before the humans ever existed. Nature exists in supreme indifference to mankind, just as it did to the dinosaurs.

If God did exist, then why would he need to be worshiped? Why should he care? Would he really want to see people groveling prostrate to him. That sounds more like a human characteristic. In fact, David has got it nearly right, man created God in his own image, with all his nasty character traits.

Why would you need to feel loved by your supernatural being? It sounds more than a little insecure. What is the morality in worshiping a God who would incinerate you for eternity, should you not believe in him. That is the action of an evil vindictive psychopath, not a loving God. Not very rational, is it David?

802. Fleabytes

Comment #142950 by Vaal on March 13, 2008 at 8:51 am

Now, if we had had an email from GOD on post 5000, saying "I EXIST", I would have been impressed! HaHa!

Maybe he is waiting for post 10,000!

803. Fleabytes

Comment #142926 by Vaal on March 13, 2008 at 8:03 am

So, after 5000 posts, anybody been persuaded by David's arguments for the existence of a personal supernatural deity, or has it just been more of the same?

I think personally when he issued the quote below, that his world view was confirmed as abject intellectual surrender.

Yes I am. I am totally amazed at the Universe. So much so that I cannot conceive of it as being self-existent, or having come from no where and nothing. Therefore I worship its Creator.

No more to be said.

804. Two More Fleas

Comment #142462 by Vaal on March 12, 2008 at 2:21 pm

Has anyone provided a proof of God's inexistence

What!!!?? Bl*dy idiot. That is the start to his book? Zeus help us. Those straw men are charging off the cliffs like a herd of lemmings.

Have any of these books got anything new to add, or is it just complete bollocks. Excuse the French. Anyone getting bored with this incessant dross?

805. Fleabytes

Comment #142273 by Vaal on March 12, 2008 at 8:39 am

Nice case of animal intelligence, communication and empathy shown on this BBC report of Whales being rescued by a dolphin in NZ..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7291501.stm

There was also a very interesting recent article about a group of young swimmers being protected by a pod of dolphins from a Great White shark. Now you wouldn't expect that to be in the interests of the dolphins to put themselves in mortal danger for another species. Obviously they didn't read any scripture, or maybe they did. :-) Moses the dolphin returning from Mount Pico to find the other dolphins worshiping a golden lobster?

806. Seven new deadly sins: are you guilty?

Comment #141708 by Vaal on March 11, 2008 at 5:44 am

I presume his Royal Highness, Darth Ratzinger, and his retinue, will be providing an example to all us sinners by travelling by bicycle and sailing ship to protect the environment?

807. Fleabytes

Comment #141479 by Vaal on March 10, 2008 at 1:36 pm

Man. Stop it!!!

808. Seven new deadly sins: are you guilty?

Comment #141476 by Vaal on March 10, 2008 at 1:33 pm

#141473 by noodly_noodleson

The test gave me a 'gluttonous' level 3. So it's sending me to hell and calling me fat??

Still, you will be able to burn it off :-))

809. Fleabytes

Comment #141467 by Vaal on March 10, 2008 at 1:19 pm

Absolutely class Cartomancer. Nearly fell off my chair laughing!!

810. Should Galileo's tomb be opened for DNA tests?

Comment #141455 by Vaal on March 10, 2008 at 12:59 pm

#141453 by noodly_noodleson

Vaal, will that be your ten percent tithing?

Knock it up to 20%. Will add the second middle finger. :-)

Hmmmm, yes, perhaps the girl is descended from Jesus?! I see where you are going. Could be a film to be made...

811. Should Galileo's tomb be opened for DNA tests?

Comment #141449 by Vaal on March 10, 2008 at 12:46 pm

That's sorted. I shall be leaving my middle finger to the Church.

812. Seven new deadly sins: are you guilty?

Comment #141441 by Vaal on March 10, 2008 at 12:28 pm

My Goodness. The hypocrisy is breathtaking!

How about some new sins..

1) Their myopic policies creating an aids epidemic in Africa on the scale of the holocaust.

2) Actively encouraging the exponential and unsustainable population growth that absolutely DOES breed environmental destruction and poverty. When is enough Darth? One hundred billion, two hundred billion?

3) The suppression of knowledge for nearly 2 millennium? How long did it take the "infallible" Church to apologise to Galileo for actually reporting the truth? 300 years? Think the hotline to God is a bit faulty.

4) Terrorising Children by threatening them with eternal damnation and torment by their "loving God", who is so paranoid and desperate that he will incinerate you for eternity, should you not worship him. Sound like a human trait perchance?

5) Making up new dogma's as you go along?

6) Disseminating untruths as truths in the insidious propaganda war against knowledge.

7) Proselytizing the young before the age of 14.

8) The obsession of the holy with sex.

I am sure there are many other "sins" that more able people can fill in...

813. Oklahoma: One Step from Doom

Comment #141086 by Vaal on March 10, 2008 at 2:39 am

The bill itself says that a student cannot be graded down if they say that what they are being taught interferes with their religious beliefs.

WHAT!!!!?? How about the Earth being carried on the back of an elephant? Talk about Dumb and Dumber, and this from the nation who put a man on the Moon, and who have probes on Mars and Titan. I am flabbergasted. This sort of nonsense should be fought tooth and nail, or ignorance will become the norm.

I would be very interested in the results of a science test on the cretins who propose this legislation. I expect that they would be shown as utter science dunces. Would they even know that the sun is a star? Somehow I doubt it.

814. Fleabytes

Comment #140945 by Vaal on March 9, 2008 at 6:55 am

Hilberts hotel? Had to look that up. See, learn something new every time I come on to this site.

Thought for a moment MPhil was referring to the hotel at the end of the Universe in Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy.

815. Fleabytes

Comment #140929 by Vaal on March 9, 2008 at 5:53 am

Congratulations to Wales for the triple crown. I am still suffering from the appalling England performance against the Scots, although in fairness, the Scot's aren't a bad team.

You guys are definitely going for breaking 5000 posts, aren't you? ;-)

Has Opaquethinker given up, or are we destined for another tidal wave of inanity?

816. Lords Approve Abolition Of Blasphemy

Comment #140921 by Vaal on March 9, 2008 at 5:40 am

Not quite sure of the law there epeeist. Surely you can still become a Lord if you are a British citizen, or did Hitchen's give up his British citizenship? Can you not have joint citizenship?

Actually, a very good candidate for the house of Lords would be David Attenborough, particularly when an astonishing 87 of the myopic Lords voted to retain this obscene law. If anybody deserved a title of being a Lord, it would be him.

817. Lords Approve Abolition Of Blasphemy

Comment #140893 by Vaal on March 9, 2008 at 4:07 am

Strangely enough I have been in meetings at work where the subject is just as tedious as any debate at the house of Commons/Lords. However, had I been caught nodding off, then I would have been given the sack. Perhaps those of our elected and paid representatives in the house of Commons caught resting their eyelids should be given the same courtesy.

The house of Lords seems to be full of people who seem to resemble the old fogies, Statler and Waldorf, from the muppets, so they have a bit more excuse to nod off, at their extreme age. Mind you, it is probably not helped by a cigar and a brandy at the bar, before having a well deserved kip in the chamber!

818. When blasphemy bit the dust

Comment #140633 by Vaal on March 8, 2008 at 5:04 am

Lord Elystan-Morgan quoted approvingly from The God Delusion, in which Dawkins describes the Christian God as "a petty, unjust, unforgiving control freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully. Lord Elystan-Morgan did not believe that Dawkins should be prosecuted for this statement.

Actually, anybody who was read the Old Testament would regard RD's description of God as indisputable. It is all there in black and white, for anyone to read. I fail to see how it would be blasphemy as that is exactly what he was.

Comment #140531 by Prom_STar
I think RD was misquoted. Wasn't he referring to the Old Testament (pre-Christian) god?

I think yes, but the Christian God is the God of the Old Testament as well as the New.

Interestingly, the early Christian Church was nearly driven to schism by the complete transformation of God's personality in the New Testament. There was a split ("splitters") by a group believing in Marcionism, which declared the Christian God was an entirely new and different God from the Jewish God, and characterized Yahweh as a "bungling or malicious demiurge". Marcion had a good deal of support, and had history gone his way, then the Christians would now be worshiping
a new God. Would he have been called Marcus? Eventually he was declared a heretic and excommunicated (a good case of history again being written by the winners).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcion

It wasn't till the Islamic God, Allah, reappeared before he reverted back to the tyrannical, psychotic desert God of the Old Testament (classic case of plagiarism).

Still, I raise a glass to the abolition of this anachronistic asinine non law, and sincerely hope, but unfortunately doubt, that it will be adopted throughout the rest of the world in my lifetime.

819. Lords Approve Abolition Of Blasphemy

Comment #140174 by Vaal on March 7, 2008 at 3:12 am

I am surprised they debate anything in the house of Lords. Whenever I see it on TV, they are mostly having a kip (sleeping, for our American friends). In fact, I am sure there were a couple of dead ones in the corner. Could have sworn I saw a skull or two! Probably been there since the civil war.

820. Crossing the Divide

Comment #140167 by Vaal on March 7, 2008 at 3:01 am

I would definitely have had a little chat to him aside after the ceremony. Cheeky g*t!

821. Crossing the Divide

Comment #140164 by Vaal on March 7, 2008 at 2:56 am

Comment #140122 by epeeist

My father's family are Catholics, but my father was a staunch Marxist of the Trotskyist persuasion. When he died we had a Catholic funeral, purely for the benefit of the family, it wasn't something he would have wanted.

It didn't stop the priest at the funeral attacking the idea of Communism and claiming that my father had come back to the fold.

Really? Did you say anything to him about it? I would have been enraged if a witchdoctor had hijacked my funeral like that. It makes you almost wish that you could return as "Carrie" did, and grab his foot from the grave!

822. What's the Point of the Archbishop of Canterbury?

Comment #139789 by Vaal on March 6, 2008 at 1:48 pm

D'Arcy

Nah, they are both propping up the fashion industry, otherwise they would be wearing the emperors clothes. Still, that would definitely make Royal Ascot far more interesting, although it probably wouldn't do the poor Archbishop any favors. :-)

823. Crossing the Divide

Comment #139773 by Vaal on March 6, 2008 at 1:30 pm

"He has flirted with atheism but found it too depressing."

Really? For such an intelligent man, I find that comment baffling, especially considering his career. I would say just the opposite. The religious world is a small narcissistic world with narrow horizons, poor answers and displaying incomprehensible arrogance. To be free of that appalling and limited dogma is empowering and illuminating.

As Carl Sagan says so eloquently..

In some respects, science has far surpassed religion in delivering awe. How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, "This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant. God must be even greater than we dreamed"? Instead they say, "No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way."

824. Lords Approve Abolition Of Blasphemy

Comment #139731 by Vaal on March 6, 2008 at 12:49 pm

Lord Elton: I was not going to take part until the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, rose and trailed the name of Dawkins and The God Delusion.
I recommend that he reads a better and more recent book, The Dawkins Delusion?

Hmmm, so Lord Elton, the Dawkins Delusion is a "better" book, and what is the relevance of it being more recent? How would it be less recent considering the title. One doubts quite sincerely if he ever read the God delusion.

Perhaps he should read Paula's devastating rebuttal of the flea books?

How does one become a Lord? Can we recommend Paula or RD? Actually, I think Hitchens would be a GREAT Lord. Imagine him ruffling the feathers of all those pompous oafs.

The Bishops Bench, is that the dunce bench? Maybe that is why they wear those hats.

Good news that this asinine non law is finally being consigned to the dustbin of history, after centuries of sadistic homicidal abuse.

What worries me is why they are even debating it in the 21st Century and that there is ANYONE with any grey matter between their ears who could possibly support it?

825. Lords Approve Abolition Of Blasphemy

Comment #139712 by Vaal on March 6, 2008 at 12:19 pm

YO!!!

826. Fleabytes

Comment #139655 by Vaal on March 6, 2008 at 10:45 am

This thread still going on? Must be a record!

When was the last time Opaquethinker was on?

827. What's the Point of the Archbishop of Canterbury?

Comment #139652 by Vaal on March 6, 2008 at 10:40 am

Who else would wear that ridiculous attire and those preposterous hats?

I always think that Religious leaders wear these comical costumes as a sign of a great practical joke, that nobody else can see through. They keep wondering how long they can pull it off for, before people get the joke.

828. Bulldozers tear down giant religious teapot

Comment #138592 by Vaal on March 4, 2008 at 3:30 pm

Haji Mohammed bin Junoh, the imam of the largest mosque in the area, said: "Pin is a deviationist. It is possible that he is dealing with Satan."

Does a 21st Century sentient being, with all his faculties intact actually believe that? Religion really is a mental illness. He should be wheeled off in a straitjacket, gibbering that sort of nonsense. Words fail me!

829. Fleabytes

Comment #137665 by Vaal on March 3, 2008 at 10:22 am

Comment #137592 by Artful_Dodger

"Let's roast a few Christians in their absence". You guys are so good at that.

Roasting Christians? I thought feeding Christians to the Lions was the correct way to lionize Christians. Would that be considered a Lion barbecue?

830. Fleabytes

Comment #137512 by Vaal on March 3, 2008 at 3:13 am

Inverness? Is that close to the Wea flea? No doubt he will make a visit to fling his usual inanities. I wonder what he looks like, white hair with a demonic look in his eye, bible under his forearm, crumpled clothes and wide hat, punching at the air in religious zeal like some Hollywood caricature.

Is Steve going as well? That would be funny to see you wrestling with the wea flea. :-))

I look forward to seeing it on the website.

831. America: slouching towards the Enlightenment

Comment #135574 by Vaal on February 29, 2008 at 5:25 am

The Jedi all live in England, according to the last census. Trying to escape the dark side!

signed Obi Wan Vaal

832. Fleabytes

Comment #133928 by Vaal on February 27, 2008 at 3:16 am

Didn't think I would be drawn in again. Last post, promise.

So, no evidence then. Just reality versus LA LA land. Bit pointless even responding to such vacuous thinking. When you have run out of straw men and mud slinging and can advocate a blinding and enlightening argument that can persuade us poor unenlightened dolts, then it will merit a response.

Until then, still waiting...

833. Evidence can't shake your faith if your faith excludes it as evidence

Comment #133699 by Vaal on February 26, 2008 at 2:47 pm

al-rawandi

My brother was a sea king pilot in the Royal navy. Some of his friends went on to be Harrier pilots, but he did fly jet provosts in training at nearly mach 1 through the hills of Wales. He described it as the biggest buzz of his life!

834. Evidence can't shake your faith if your faith excludes it as evidence

Comment #133319 by Vaal on February 26, 2008 at 4:05 am

Well they'd be worshipping a god called Vaal rather than Yaweh and stating that he landed in a winged horse that farted flames!

Fantastic. Think of the laws you could make up..

1) Thou shalt not watch soap operas, as that is blasphemy and punishable by stoning.

2) Thou shalt wear your underpants on your head on the Sabbath, and greet each other with the word "wibble"

3) Thou shalt worship cricket.

4) Thou shalt not eat brussel sprouts on pain of death.

etc etc

835. Evidence can't shake your faith if your faith excludes it as evidence

Comment #133304 by Vaal on February 26, 2008 at 3:41 am

Now, imagine time travel is possible. Can you imagine landing a harrier jump jet beside Abraham. Now that would have been a little bit more impressive than a burning bush.

Interestingly, I wonder how they would have written that up in the Bible?

836. Church is paying a high price for its celibacy rule

Comment #132814 by Vaal on February 25, 2008 at 8:23 am

On a separate note, has anyone seen the film "Evelyn" with Pierce Brosnan. A very moving film, about the power of religion over peoples rights in Ireland in the 1950's. A real eye opener! Highly recommended, and a very good pointer for religion not playing any part in a secular society (although the ArchBishop would probably disagree).

There is also the added bonus of "Father Jack" playing as Evelyn's grandfather. See if you recognise him!

837. Church is paying a high price for its celibacy rule

Comment #132771 by Vaal on February 25, 2008 at 7:42 am

"Feck", "Girls", "Drink".

838. Evidence can't shake your faith if your faith excludes it as evidence

Comment #132565 by Vaal on February 25, 2008 at 1:37 am

Watch out for those burning bushes, Prof!

Honestly, so many words saying absolutely nothing, and then they wonder why their arguments are laughable.

839. Fleabytes

Comment #131720 by Vaal on February 23, 2008 at 4:20 am

Ah well, I was hoping that David would actually write an interesting and enlightening riposte to Paula's criticisms of his book, perhaps one that could engage some serious consideration that his world view has some basis on evidence that we have missed, but alas it has degenerated into obfuscation and whining that is more reminiscent of a spoilt child.

However, I will look forward to the article that he will submit to Josh, but I suspect it will be more of the same. As Steve then, I bid farewell to this thread as it is not adding any value.

840. Fleabytes

Comment #130719 by Vaal on February 21, 2008 at 7:35 am

David

I think you will find that, contrary to your "fundamentalist atheist" comments and similar mud slinging, that most people on this website would LIKE to hear evidence for your supernatural entity. If you can show incontrovertible evidence for your deity(s), then please bring it to the table.

Unfortunately, as Paula and others have indicated, the arguments come down to no more than smoke and mirrors, unedifying personal attacks and armies of straw men. Hardly convincing. I suspect that it will be more of the same, but try your best and please try and persuade us without the usual obscurantism and inanities. Try and write to convince US, not your flock.

841. Fleabytes

Comment #130652 by Vaal on February 21, 2008 at 5:21 am

Thanks Tyler, Steve

To be honest I don't often answer replies from the likes of the Artful dodger, as they never offer up an argument that is worth replying to. When they come up with a real argument that grabs the attention, I will look forward to it. I haven't seen one yet. Paula, Steve and others are much better at replying to that sort of gobbledegook than I am. I don't have the patience for that breed of inanity.

Yes, Hungarianelephant, I would highly recommend Richard Leakey's books. The sixth extinction is a real eye opener, and I found origins reconsidered: in search of what makes us human very enlightening.

842. Fleabytes

Comment #130636 by Vaal on February 21, 2008 at 3:53 am

Comment #130582 by Artful_Dodger

Even Darwin portrayed evolution as being "towards" the higher forms of which human beings are the supreme example

Ah, the arrogance and conceit of religion. We are NOT the end result of evolution. Evolution doesn't care; it could have been any other species that evolved to best fit the niche available. If history had been repeated, the geological upheaval that caused the rift valley that changed the environment from forest to savannah may not have occurred, our ancestors would not have become bipedal, and humanity would not have existed on this small planet. We are here due to geology, not any supernatural agent.

I look at the news and see examples of the "supreme example" of evolution and see very little evidence of it. Let's look at the "supreme example", compared to other species. On our own, we are weak, slow, poor sense of smell, hearing, weak eyesight, lesser senses than many other species ie bats, dolphins. One to one, I would bet on a Tiger anytime.

Is intelligence inevitable? The dinosaurs were very successful for 150 million years and yet showed little need for intelligence. If it wasn't due to a catastrophic impact then they could still be walking the Earth.

Let's look at the concept that intelligence makes us superior to other species. Yes, it gives us adaptability that no other species as yet has had, but looking at the damage that we are causing to our planet and to other inhabitants of this small world, one could argue that intelligence could be the greatest own goal that has ever happened to life on our planet.

If we encountered another species from another solar system whose consciousness would be comparable to us comparing ourselves to a lemur, would that then make them the "supreme example". Where would that relegate mankind to? Sheep? An irony indeed for the flock!

The Universe is supremely indifferent to our existence. It has managed to exist for 13 billion years without humanity, and if our world was subject to a catastrophe such as a nearby supernova, solar instability, a large asteroid impact, a supervolcano, then the Universe would continue just as well without us.

It is breathtaking that the religiously infected accuse atheists/scientists of arrogance, yet they show astounding lack of humility.

843. Fleabytes

Comment #129781 by Vaal on February 19, 2008 at 3:12 pm

Wow! Got to admire your patience and fortitude Paula, having to wade through that unmitigated drivel. I think I would rather hang by my toes in the garden!

Good work. I am surprised that the wea flea was the strongest of the critics. As you, I would have considered McGrath as the intellectual heavyweight although I have never heard anything other than vacuous inane badlerdash from him.

Your evisceration of the wea flea was most refreshing. How you got through his mind numbing obscurantism and solipsism with your mind not turned to jelly is remarkable. I will mark it as one of my favourite articles and refer to it in the future as ammunition against the banal circular arguments from the rationally challenged. YOU should write a book!

844. A match made on RichardDawkins.net?

Comment #129570 by Vaal on February 19, 2008 at 10:22 am

"The only real downside is that V will no longer have the best cricket team in the world on her doorstep ;-)"

Course she will. She is living in Scotland :-)

845. Atheists An Increasingly Outspoken Minority

Comment #129475 by Vaal on February 19, 2008 at 7:25 am

I regard this as good news, as politicians may have to be wary of playing the God card, as atheists are voters too, and in a close run contest they may regret marginalising or even demonizing non theists.

I would actually speculate there are far more atheists/agnostics in the religious community than people think. I went to a religious school in N. Ireland and I would say that the minority were believers. Most people considered themselves as Catholics or Protestants in terms of their social circles.

I have often wondered how many atheists there are in the Muslim community? Probably far more than people think, and hopefully growing.

846. A match made on RichardDawkins.net?

Comment #128438 by Vaal on February 17, 2008 at 2:24 am

Yo! Many congratulations to you both. I am sure that you will both be very good for each other. Let us know when the wedding date is and a glass or two will be raised to your future together.

I hope to see you Veronique and Yorker when you can make it down to England and will take you out for a meal in Windsor to celebrate. Hopefully Phillip can join us :-)

847. Ben Stein Wins Intelligent Design Money

Comment #128069 by Vaal on February 16, 2008 at 2:52 am

Worrying. There should be a disclaimer on the movie saying "This is complete bolloxs and it may damage your brain!".

Unfortunately the ignorant will flock to see it, and it will be another pseudo arrow in their armory of religious propaganda, for us to have to refute.

I worry about humanity, have they lost the capacity of critical thought? We were always taught at school to question everything yet the Religites have no qualms at all when it comes to misrepresentation, lies, spin and inanity beyond comprehension. Hopefully people will see it for the utter cobblers it is, and it will give RD and PZ Myers and others the opportunity to tear it to pieces.

848. Pleas for condemned Saudi 'witch'

Comment #127001 by Vaal on February 14, 2008 at 4:05 pm

Unbelievable. Looks like the dark ages are alive and well in the 21st Century. I desperately worry that this ignorance and barbarity is creeping into the West through the back door.

It is our duty to raise as much noise about these dreadful abuses of human rights wherever we can, wherever they are, with politicians, newspapers, articles etc. Hopefully, it will do some good, as it did with the Saudi rape victim who was pardoned by the Saudi King in the face of the outrage of the world to her appalling sentence by demented clerics.

849. Exorcism undergoes a revival across Europe

Comment #125361 by Vaal on February 11, 2008 at 9:29 am

Burning witches next?

850. Charles Simonyi Professorship in the Public Understanding of Science

Comment #125212 by Vaal on February 11, 2008 at 4:25 am

How about Alistar McGrath :-))

He could bore everyone to death, blah blah blah, yada yada..