851. Amazing Meeting 3, 2005

Comment #25996 by scottishgeologist on March 16, 2007 at 1:55 am

Randi is ace! www.randi.org should be on every freethinker's list of places in cyberspace to visit on Fridays.

He really does do some serious demolition work on the nutjobs.

852. Does God answer prayer? ASU research says 'yes'

Comment #25993 by scottishgeologist on March 16, 2007 at 1:51 am

Re the amputees argument. There is actually another side to this one, and we need to look at less evolved creatures to see it. Crustaceans can grow claws if they lose one. Here's an excerpt from an article:

"Crustaceans - such as crabs, crayfish, and lobsters-are capable of creating a new limb completely from scratch. While scientists have long been intrigued by this uncanny ability little is known about the process. Working with fiddler crabs, University of Oklahoma zoologists Penny Hopkins and David Durica are trying to determine how, when a crustacean loses one of its appendages, it can grow a new one that is fully functioning and identical to the lost limb.

Crabs lose their legs quite frequently, Hopkins explains. When a bird decides to dine on one of the small crunchy animals, it grabs it by one of its 10 limbs and flies away. The crab can free itself by constricting a special set of muscles that causes the captive leg to fall off. It then can grow a new one in about two weeks - even the showy large claw that male fiddler crabs wave about to attract a mate. "These animals grow new nerve, new muscle, new everything!"

Absolutely fascinating.

So lets get this right - God can do all sorts of miracle healing but doesnt heal amputees, despite the fact that in his "creation" there are creatures who do just that.

Either God's got a thing about crustaceans (just like he does for beetles - there are about 350,000 describe species apparently) Or he just likes to leave humans limbless. Or he simply is incapable of doing it. Or, on the other hand, maybe he just doesnt exist.....

853. Does God answer prayer? ASU research says 'yes'

Comment #25939 by scottishgeologist on March 15, 2007 at 6:07 pm

Dan P

there was the infamous "prayer for fertility" study that actually made it into a peer reviewed journal.

James Randi goes into great detail about it:

http://www.randi.org/jr/070904that.html#1

Occasionally, the charlatans slip the net....

Randi is brilliant at nailing this sort of stuff.

854. A 'Sad First' in the History of the Congress

Comment #25936 by scottishgeologist on March 15, 2007 at 6:01 pm

Goodwithwood,

If Frank Zappa were around now, he'd own these faith-heads no problem!

his comment in that positiveatheism list of quotes I gave is scarily prophetic:

"The last election just laid the foundation of the next 500 years of Dark Ages."
-- Frank Zappa, in 1981

855. Does God answer prayer? ASU research says 'yes'

Comment #25934 by scottishgeologist on March 15, 2007 at 5:55 pm

Hey BaronOchs

Your comment: God comes across more as a slot machine, insert the prayer and collect your miracle.

- serious deja-vue there! Because in an earlier posting I referred to the Duke University study into IP. In the BBC report on it:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3193902.stm

The Bishop of Durham, the Rt Rev Tom Wright, said: "Prayer is not a penny in the slot machine.

"You can't just put in a coin and get out a chocolate bar.

Brilliant!!!

856. God's dupes

Comment #25901 by scottishgeologist on March 15, 2007 at 3:19 pm

Totally agree with the comments so far. Sam Harris seems to have a "way with words". A classic example of the sort of sayings that make you say "wish I had said that!"

He seems to be able to cut right through the BS and summarise things very nicely, pithily and with humo(u)r (that was a sop to conservapedia BTW...)

More Sam, more!!!

857. Was there ever dog that praised his fleas?

Comment #25887 by scottishgeologist on March 15, 2007 at 2:25 pm

Fedler, the "superior" thing probably comes from the doctrine of the Elect. The idea that God has chosen some people to slavation and some to damnation. What Calvin referred to as the "horrible decree". The doctrine basically makes a nonsense of free will and the idea of "choosing " Jesus or "deciding to become a Christian"

In the bible, christ refers to "his Elect" several times. If you want to read a blistering attack on this doctrine, check out "Holy Willie's Prayer" by Robert Burns. The Scots dialect may be a bit difficult for some, but the poem is brilliant. At the time of burns of course, Scotland was like a theocracy where the churches held enormous sway

Here's a link to it:

http://www.worldburnsclub.com/poems/translations/holy_willies_prayer.htm

Some would actually argue that Burns was a "God fearing man" but his reputation as a bit of a "lady's man" would tend to go against that. He liked a good drink as well....

858. Does God answer prayer? ASU research says 'yes'

Comment #25879 by scottishgeologist on March 15, 2007 at 2:16 pm

Oh yeah, heres another link to a study that shows that prayer doesnt work: (The Duke U study)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3193902.stm

I like the line "putting God to the test" What's wrong with that? Is he scared he's going to fail? Wait... if I put out an exam paper for a non-existent candidate, I can wait all day and he isnt going to show up, the result is "failure"

But you can look at it another way. What if prayer studies showed, "hey, prayer does make a difference, prayer to God does help" Just think what a mighty weapon of God that study would be.

Atheism stopped dead in its tracks - "The God Delusion" gathering dust on the shelves. Muzzies flocking to churches to hear "the Lord's word" .

Richard Dawkins seen cycling down a leafy lane like a John Major-esque spinster off to communion.

A "Mighty movement" of the holy spirit, sweeping the secular west at last, borne on the wings of irrefutable evidence.

Tell you what, if that happened, I'd be in church. I'd be stupid not to.

But (quick reality check) it just doesnt happen like that. Why? Is God shy? or is it a case of the invisible and the non-existent looking rather similar?

859. Does God answer prayer? ASU research says 'yes'

Comment #25867 by scottishgeologist on March 15, 2007 at 1:56 pm

Prayer is the biggest load of BS that the religites can come up with. A study was done last year, published in the American Heart Journal which PROVED that there was no positive effect WHATSOEVER.

http://www.livescience.com/othernews/ap_060330_prayer.html

The only people who benefit from this talking to the sky fairy are the deluded dolts DOING the praying. Talking to the sky, FFS!

I remmeber a charismatic type once telling me that God had 3 answers to prayer - "Yes" "No" and "Wait"

Well, hey, if I set up a lump of stone (and being a geologist, I'd choose something cool, really cool, like rhomb porphyry, eclogite or kimberlite) and then if I prayed to it, I'd get exactly the same responses!!!

These lamers do my head in - "I feel that God is telling me" or "I prayed about it and guess what , it happened!! " Wow, what about the dozens of times it DIDNT happen, no doubt you have conveniently forgotten about them. Of course what you then get is the win-win scenario: If you get what you want, isnt God an awesome dude, like, totally, amazing, fantastic and all that hyperbole. But when you DONT get what you want, then its a case of "It must be his will" or "His ways are higher than ours" or "God must have special plan"


Actually, there is one good thing about prayer - when these idiots are on their knees talking to their imaginary friend, they are NOT out an about polluting young minds, irritating the crap out of everyone else or spouting their homophobic, genocidal, mysoginist, exclusivist BS.

860. A 'Sad First' in the History of the Congress

Comment #25748 by scottishgeologist on March 15, 2007 at 2:08 am

The knee jerk response to this is in itself enlightening. It just shows how irrational the whole thing is , and, lets face it, if one man can make the whole edifice feel threatened, then either they are way off beam, and totally deranged OR they realise that their edifice is just a tissue of deceit, lies, control-freakery and BS.

Very similar response in fact to the slew of anti-Dawkins books that are appearing.

They just make themselves look ridiculous, And of course, by all this high profile protesting, they are providing the infamous "oxygen of publicity" (It was Margaret Thatcher who first said that wasnt it?)

They obviously feel that their house of cards is threatened.

Advice to theists: Shut up. Keep schtoom. And who knows, the atheists might just slither away and leave you with your cozy comfort blanket.

Oh yeah, re frankzappa, I agree , cool name. F Z was brilliant. His list of quotes here is priceless:

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/zappa.htm

Possibly, only bettered by his lyrics in "The Dangerous Kitchen"

http://www.lyricsdomain.com/6/frank_zappa/the_dangerous_kitchen.html

What on earth was he on when he wrote that...? :-))

861. Carl Sagan's Cosmos for Rednecks

Comment #25745 by scottishgeologist on March 15, 2007 at 1:48 am

Roy_H

Yes thats a good one! Saw the Top Gear prog as well. Death wish or what?

There is another cartoon along the same lines called "Technology for Country Folks" - its a little bit gentler and very funny:

http://www.cumberlandcollege.sk.ca/newsletter/issue2/Technology%20for%20country%20folks.jpg

:-)

862. Turkey: Creationism Documentary

Comment #25541 by scottishgeologist on March 14, 2007 at 3:30 am

Actually Christian Fundies and Muslim Fundies are pretty similar in a lot of respects, mainly over the things that they hate. And they do a lot of hating.

For a canonical list of nutjobs just have a look at this. Man, what a rogues' gallery...

http://adultthought.ucsd.edu/Culture_War/The_American_Taliban.html

863. Was there ever dog that praised his fleas?

Comment #25536 by scottishgeologist on March 14, 2007 at 3:01 am

Just one more observation before I go and earn todays crust.

Q. 29. What are the punishments of sin in the world to come?

A. The punishments of sin in the world to come, are everlasting separation from the comfortable presence of God, and most grievous torments in soul and body, without intermission, in hell-fire forever

From the Larger Catechism, one of the subordinate documents fo DR's church.

864. Was there ever dog that praised his fleas?

Comment #25532 by scottishgeologist on March 14, 2007 at 2:44 am

DR: it is variously described as a place of darkness and fire – the two are kind of incompatible.

In other words, just another bible contradiction.

"Many Christians think that the bible teaches conditional annihilationism – ie. That after a period of time the person is annihiliated"

In other words The John Stott style of theology.

This actually gets quite interesting because what we are seeing here is a "watering down" of traditional reformed teaching on hell, in order to make it more palatable to a science savvy generation

John Stott is one of the leading evangies and has been criticised by other evangies for adopting an anihilationist position.

Looks like the cracks are starting to appear, doesnt it? The old absolute certainties arent quite so certain now.

865. Remote sheep population resists genetic drift

Comment #25526 by scottishgeologist on March 14, 2007 at 2:12 am

Actually, chaps, the activity in question is clearly originates in the soaring peaks of my homeland:

http://www.cairngormbrewery.com/sheepshaggers_gold.htm

:-)))))))))

866. Evangelicals battle over agenda, environment

Comment #25525 by scottishgeologist on March 14, 2007 at 2:06 am

Hey,

"Dobson himself, Minnery said, is busy writing a book on child rearing."

Whats that one gonna be called? "Dawkins - the Jesus Camp Years"

867. Evangelicals battle over agenda, environment

Comment #25524 by scottishgeologist on March 14, 2007 at 2:04 am

Its amazing how these fundies get hung up on what goes on in the bedroom. Its so obsessive, you almost wonder if there is something mentally wrong with them. OK there is - it's called religion.

But regarding more liberal issues, its fascinating how little concern they show for the teachings of their founder.

Matthew 25 31-46:

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

This passage clearly states that there is eternal punishment for NOT being active in areas of social concern. So called "liberal" issues feature all the way through this passage. And the reward for failure is eternal damnation!

Funny how they are prepared to state that "fags will burns in hell" with total certainty, yet ignore this key teaching.

Lucky for these bigots that the whole religion thing is just BS anyway, isnt it?

868. Was there ever dog that praised his fleas?

Comment #25483 by scottishgeologist on March 13, 2007 at 3:49 pm

Jessie

You asked:
Another question: do you, personally, think that all non-Christians deserve to be tortured for eternity? That's billions of people suffering for billions of years. Wait, actually billions of years would merely be the first second of eternity.

Anyway, yes or no?

No fundamentalist Christian, I've noticed, ever answers these for me. I wonder why.

Good questions. What is interesting to me is the attitude of various "evangelicals" over the years. Two examples.

R M McCheyne. Scottish Pastor. In one of his sermons 11th Dec 1842, he spoke about "The eternal torment of the wicked - a matter of eternal song to the redeemed" Based on Revelation 19:3. He makes the 3 points:

1) The eternal torment of the wicked will be a matter of no grief to the redeemed.
2)The torment of the wicked will be a matter of joy to the redeemed
3)The reason why the redeemed will rejoice at the condemnation of the wicked.

Sick stuff. You can find it in the book "A Basket of Fragments" by Christian Focus Publications.

There is also the example of Jonathan Edwards, the famous preacher, who said in a famous sermon, The End of the Wicked Contemplated by the Righteous, that "when the saints in glory shall see the wrath of God executed on ungodly men, it will be no occasion of grief to them but of rejoicing"

Both these men are held up by modern day evangies as "great men of faith" "giants of the faith" "steeped in the Word" and all that BS.
I sometimes wonder if all this "hell talk" is little more than a way of scaring people and thus controlling them. There is a story of a Scottish preacher who was asked why his sermons took an hour - "well he said, it takes me 20 mins to preach them into hell and then 40 mins to preach them back out again!"

Of course if you want to experience some real BS, you need to check out the "Hell House" - RD covered this in his Virus of Faith program. Almost laughable until you realize how serious these people are.

Nutjobs here:
http://www.godestiny.org/hell_house/HH_kit.cfm

869. Academy denies claims from job candidate

Comment #25413 by scottishgeologist on March 13, 2007 at 2:05 am

Veronique

No need to apologise - if you've got good stuff, keep it coming! Interesting to hear the Australian side of things. Always think of Oz as a modern, forward looking progressive sort of place.

Looks like you've got your nutjobs as well. After all that creationist "geologist" John Mackay who did a tour of the UK recently is from Australia - there is also the lovely Ken Ham.

Ther is another matter which is now slowly fading from memory. Readers of this site will be familiar with David Robertson, pastor in the Free Church of Scotland. There was an almighty row and schism in the church a few years ago, over an alleged "affair" in Australia. You can read a brief resume of it here:

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-60026680.html

Sorry if this is a bit off topic - but it shows just how corrupt some of these holier than thou types can be.

But to go BACK on topic, there is an obscure web site here:

http://www.aapi.co.uk/mansbacher/absent-minded.htm

which has a very interesting article about Christian schools and the same Professor. Mind you, the article was written by a complete nutjob who was thrown out the church.....

You know, non-belief is actually much, much easier...

870. Academy denies claims from job candidate

Comment #25239 by scottishgeologist on March 11, 2007 at 7:08 am

Carl mentioned:

The prospectus also seems to suggest the school is teaching the kids about eternal punishment for sinners. With it having both a nursery and reception class the shock is clearly heightened.

Fact is, if they have nailed their colours to the mast of evangelicalism (which they clearly have) then they are BOUND to teach these things. After all, hell is a key christian doctrine.

Some fundies would argue that liberal churches are apostate in that they DONT talk about this stuff (Prob because they dont beleive in it)

If these Emmanuel types are true to their faith virus, they will teach that christianity is the ONLY way and that all other faiths lead to hell. Period.

Coz thats what their founder said. "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh to the Father but by me." John 14:6

And: Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:12

Interestingly however, the word "hell" never crops up in any modern translation of the OT. Also, it does not appear in any of Paul's letters.

Makes you kinda wonder....

871. Was there ever dog that praised his fleas?

Comment #24956 by scottishgeologist on March 9, 2007 at 1:33 pm

The Free Church is shooting itself in the foot by closing its message board.

To quote: "Increasingly, the message board was reflecting attitudes and discussions that the Committee feels are unrepresentative of the church, unhelpful, and distracting"

Of all the churches, certainly in Scotland, the FC definitely had the most lively forum. I suspect it was not just atheist input to it that closed it - I have looked at it several times and there were numerous " fundie vs not-so-fundie" threads going with all the usual YEC / Evo / OEC, Bible versions, church discipline and stuff like that being argued.

If they do put up another message board that will, to quote "appeal more to our own constituency", then they run the risk of appearing to be narrow, inward looking and censorious.

872. You can't trust science!

Comment #24864 by scottishgeologist on March 9, 2007 at 12:29 am

Reminds me of the Chick Trabcts web site:

http://www.chick.com/catalog/tractlist.asp

(Warning: seriously fundie stuff , and its serious, its not a joke...)

Or if you want cloying creationist BS, try "After Eden"

http://www.answersingenesis.org/aftereden/index.aspx

These are seriously emetic.

Of course if you want PROPER "AFter Eden" stuff:

http://www.contessa.co.uk/after-eden.asp

Hah! now were talking!

873. Conservapedia v Wikipedia

Comment #24774 by scottishgeologist on March 8, 2007 at 1:38 pm

discipline

Thanks for filling in with some scary detail there.

I checked the amazon link you gave - sounds like a book worth getting a hold of.

One of the things that RD was accused of in his 2 part documentary "The Root of all Evil?" was that he only went for fringe nutjobs and extremists. From what you are saying about the Christian right in America, what he reported on (Ted Haggard et al) was totally mainstream. That is scary.

I have heard about this "dominionism" business several times before. Is it really the dominant force in American evangelicalism?

and just as a little exercise, a "whois" lookup on the .com, .net. .eu .info and .org variants of the conservapedia TLD, reveal a whole bunch of these things registered by Andrew Schlafley.

BTW, the .co.uk variant hasnt been registered yet....

874. Conservapedia v Wikipedia

Comment #24715 by scottishgeologist on March 8, 2007 at 7:09 am

That stuff on the Kangaroo is unbelievable. "Their legs are strong and powerful, designed by God for leaping" Is it me, or does that sort of pish not just sound like something you'd read in a childs story. It's so puerile its embarassing.

And as for that rafting business.... "Land ahoy me hearties, ooh aar, that be Oz, land of beer, sheilas and utes"

It MUST be a hoax... surely a parody... NOBODY can be this stupid can they?

Even the really obvious stuff is stupid:

"Kangaroos have large ears on top of their small heads" And then they have a picture of a 'roo showing smallish ears on a reasonably proportioned head...

Actually, if this is the cutting edge of evangelicalism, then , well, all I can say is "We've won" By a long way. Vague notions of "spirituallity" and "transcendence" might be hard to fight against. But this is like shooting rats in a barrel.

As for the Cactus entry... well these things are clearly Satanic.... maybe a bit too phallic for the fundies...

Difference between a cactus and a church? Cactuses have the pricks on the OUTSIDE.... OK its an old one, but hey, lets keep the laughs going...

Should have a prize for the most amusing and / or embarasssing entry in conservapedia. Actually, the name "Conservapedia" could cause David Cameron some discomfort... Better get a strongly worded statement out David, just in case.

875. Was there ever dog that praised his fleas?

Comment #24684 by scottishgeologist on March 8, 2007 at 3:55 am

"If you don't hold belief in god that important, then all you are doing is attending is a fairly large social club."

Ohnhai, you have just hit the nail on the head. A lot of these "church-goers" are doing just that - they dont even know half of what their holy book supposedly teaches. The whole thing is just a collective, cozy hug-in.

A bit like that ridiculous "World day of prayer" last FRiday. http://www.worlddayofprayer.net/

All these women getting together , differnet denominations, all very ecumenical and lovey dovey.

Tell me , all that "prayer" concentrated into one day, all that pleading to God (Fervently, no doubt), presumably has amde a big differnece to things?

Checked the news over the past week? Exactly - no differnece whatsoever. None. Prayer is a total waste of time. And these losers know it.

Instead what they probably got out of it was a nice cozy feeling, a sense of well being and little else.

876. Conservapedia v Wikipedia

Comment #24605 by scottishgeologist on March 7, 2007 at 2:26 pm

Quote:

"In fact, reading through it leads me to wonder if it isn't actually a parody site"

Its pretty hysterical, brings to mind a certain "You cant be serious!!!", John MacEnroe style.

Finest ever parody site however HAS to be Pastor Deacon Freds Landover Baptist Church. If you've never seen it, grab a beer, sit back and click your merry way to www.landoverbaptist.org

However bad the news, however crap the weather, however rough you feel, after spending 10 minutes at Landover, I guarantee, you will feel much, much better.

Sounds like Conservapedia might be the same sort of place!

877. Was there ever dog that praised his fleas?

Comment #24405 by scottishgeologist on March 6, 2007 at 12:36 pm

Chris,

re: What puzzles me is how on earth Robertson managed to get his scribblings published

It is Christian Focus Publications that is publishing it. Probably fairly easy to get this sort of thing published, considering how topical it is, and besides, the advertising for it started a long time ago with the Channel 4 two part documentary!

What is really interesting however, is how much effort has gone into refuting RD by all these writers. It's like they've all gone "Sh*t - look whats happened, c'mon, c'mon guys, we need a response... fast... quick....get writing" and gone into headless chicken mode.

If you examine David Robertsons articles on the Free Church web site for 2006, he had an article dated 2 Jan 2006. Then nothing for ages, almost a whole year. Then suddenly, 10th Nov "Dawkins Delusion" and all the other articles that presumably make up the book. Nothing in 2006 worth commenting on? Until RD comes along? Then a massive burst of apologetic gunfire.

It's almost funny...

878. Research links some scriptures to hostile acts

Comment #24400 by scottishgeologist on March 6, 2007 at 12:07 pm

Billy mentioned:

"Some of them are not justifiable on any grounds - like killing babies because their parents have a different faith"

Which is a very good point. How this squares with the "God is Love" beats me. Unless of course, such children were reprobate, "damned" by divine decree a la Calvin, anyway, in which case they were just being bundled off to hell a little bit quicker than being allowed to become adults. Of course other religites might argue that such children were "saved" and this is God's way of taking them before they become adults and possibly lost (except this would clash with the "perseverance of saints" / once saved always saved doctrine"

Of course it could just be a human created tale of bronze age savagery, with the "God told us to do it" thrown in to justify it. Occam's Razor anyone?

I came across a childrens bedtime bible story book the other day - Daniel in the lions' den Story goes: Daniel's enemies want rid of him - trip the king into passing a law - makes Daniel's prayer to God blasphemous - Daniel rounded up thrown into the lions' den. God protects Daniel - Daniel freed. End of children's story. All cutiesie and cuddly. Lions are all smiling, fluffy beasts. Child goes to sleep. Aaw aint that cute.

Read the actual story in Daniel 6. Now look at verse 24:

"At the king's command, the men who had falsely accused Daniel were brought in and thrown into the lions' den, along with their wives and children. And before they reached the floor of the den, the lions overpowered them and crushed all their bones"

You dont find that bit in the children's story now do you? Just imagine it - wives and children - WTF did they do? Imagine the scene - the sheer horror on childrens faces as they and their mothers are ripped to bits by lions.

Can you imagine the nightmares a child would have, going to sleep on that BS story? If that isn't child abuse, I don't know what it. Of course, the Christian apologists get round this by simply missing it out. Just like they miss out the "eating dung" "drinking piss", the soldiers with huge dongs in Ezekial, the incest and the almost incessant killing right through the OT. How about the ripping open of pregnant women as in Hosea 8:13:

"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword;
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open"

And yet the apologists still try to convince us that this is the word of a God of Love. Sorry, it simply doesnt work.

879. Senator calls for answer on creation of universe

Comment #23969 by scottishgeologist on March 3, 2007 at 8:00 pm

Yup, I go with the PZ stuff. It fits with Dawkins "time to get angry" We've had enough of this lame crap. Time to stop being so polite, so deferential. F*ck religion and all its manifestations. This story shows clearly what a bunch of wank it really is.

880. The Dawkins Confusion: Naturalism ad absurdum

Comment #23774 by scottishgeologist on March 2, 2007 at 3:53 pm

Hey, Epeeist

you mentioned you live near Alderley Edge. I remember reading about that in Alan Garners "Weirdstone of Brisingamen" during English lessons at school. The whole story was set in the area.

Absolute cracker of a book. Much more credible than that bible stuff....

881. Faith

Comment #23764 by scottishgeologist on March 2, 2007 at 2:43 pm

Riley

you are probably right about the anger thing. Richard Dawkins mentions it himself in his article at:

http://www.simonyi.ox.ac.uk/dawkins/WorldOfDawkins-archive/Dawkins/Work/Articles/2001-09time_to_stand_up.shtml

As he says - "It is time to stop pussyfooting around. Time to get angry. And not only with Islam"

There has been a sea change in recent years and I think a lot of people are "coming out" as it were. Of course, because of this sea change, there is the backlash of a stream of books and articles which all seem to have the word "dawkins" in the title.

I can see it getting a lot more heated!

882. The Dawkins Confusion: Naturalism ad absurdum

Comment #23674 by scottishgeologist on March 2, 2007 at 3:09 am

There is also a wikioedia entry on him:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Plantinga

Briefly: Alvin Carl Plantinga (born 15 November 1932 in Ann Arbor, Michigan, of Frisian ancestry) is a contemporary American philosopher known for his work in epistemology, metaphysics, philosophy of religion and support of intelligent design. His current position is John A. O'Brien Professor of Philosophy at the University of Notre Dame. He is a Calvinist, despite being a professor at a traditionally Catholic university. Like Richard Swinburne, he is a contemporary philosophical apologist for Christianity. He gave the 2004-5 Gifford Lectures at St. Andrews University, titled Science and Religion: Conflict or Concord (to be published).

Notice he is described as a Calvinist. Presumably he subscribes to this beaut:

Calvin said in his "Institutes of the Christian Religion" [1536], that even though it is "awful," "Some men are born devoted from the womb to certain death [to eternal suffering and damnation, not to mere oblivion], that God's name be glorified in their destruction." He also says: "If there were no one to punish, then God would be incapable of demonstrating that he was a mysteriously vindictive God."

883. Falwell says Christians shouldn't focus on global warming

Comment #23671 by scottishgeologist on March 2, 2007 at 2:41 am

Yes, the same Falwell (and Pat Robertson) who reckoned that the 911 attacks were the result of gays, lesbians, ACLU, pagans... the list goes on.

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/14/Falwell.apology/

The Urban Dictionery sums him up pretty well (you'll grin at these)

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jerry+falwell


The best thing about people like Falwell, Robertson, Hinn et al is that they do a lot of the spade work for us by their ludicrous remarks. The notion of "giving them enough rope to hang themselves" should be encouraged.

884. Faith

Comment #23629 by scottishgeologist on March 1, 2007 at 9:05 pm

Riley

look like you hit the Achilles heel of christianity over on David Robertsons church website:


David Robertson:

Besides which I know of no Christian parent who tells their child that if they do not believe XYZ they will be going to hell. We tell our children that they were made for God and for relationship with him and that he loves them and that they are covenant children who belong to him.

Riley:
I'm genuinely heartened to read that you do not fully teach your children what's in The Bible.


Brilliant. Just brilliant. This is one of those areas where if you were to push a lot of "believers" then they would start to shuffle about uncomfortably. That is why, hell seldom gets mentioned in a lot of churches. Including so called "bible believing " ones.

(That comment of Robertsons will NOT go down well with the conservative members of his church BTW)

This "lack of preaching on hell" is what one researcher called a "conspiracy of silence"

Check this out:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,2763,1658115,00.html

885. If God is talking to you, too, Mr Cameron - don't listen

Comment #23503 by scottishgeologist on March 1, 2007 at 6:27 am

Regarding David Cameron and religion, there is an article here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4446864.stm

from the 2005 leadership contest which contains the interesting line:

On religion, he added: "I believe in God and I try to get to church more than Christmas and Easter, but perhaps not as often as I should, but I don't feel I have a direct line."

That last phrase is refreshingly reassuring (I hope!) Most born-again evangie type DO claim to have a personal God they can talk to (and presumably talks to them....)Cameron is clearly a "nominalist"

This is in complete contrast to Dubya of course.

BTW, ever wondered how that conversation went?

(Phone ringing)

God: F*ckin phone, some loser wanting to talk to me wonder who it is this time. Oh no, that fud Dubya...

Hi, Dubya, God here, what can I do for yah my old mate?

Dubya "Well God, thanks for answering. I know you are busy what with all that burning in hell stuff you do - all these unbelievers to torture, but I was just wondering, got a little problem here"

God "No prob, sure, kinda busy with the killin and the smitin and the hell and all that stuff, but how can I help yah?"

Dubya "OK, God, I want to invade Iraq, kick Saddams butt, and generally pick up where my Pappa left off"

God "Go for it Dubya, nuke the SOB's ass - go on, I'll see you alright. If anybody asks, just say God told yah to do it. Pastor Ted will give you more details on Monday. If any of these liberal faggot demoncrats give you any grief, let me know and I'll smite them."

"Cheers, God. I knew I could count on you..."

886. Faith

Comment #23296 by scottishgeologist on February 27, 2007 at 4:20 pm

Paul Creber mentioned Alex. The absolutely fascinating amazing and wonderful thing about Alex is that HE USED TO BE A MINISTER IN THE SAME CHURCH as David Robertson.

Alex's "anti-testimony" would make a great article for this site I am sure. How someone went from being a preacher in a Calvinist church to a freethinker - it must make interesting reading.

What I would like to know is, what actually made the difference -what actually broke the camels back - what was the hinge point?

Of course, it begs the question, how many more followers of the same religion are having the same doubts, the same nagging questions, the same worries?

Or was Alex just a loose cannon? Alex, if you are reading this, can you fill us in?

887. Faith

Comment #23288 by scottishgeologist on February 27, 2007 at 2:58 pm

Teapot

You are right - lets have stpetes back again. No way is censorship right. OK, he talks a lot of pish at times, but its important to hear both sides.

And he does fight his corner well.

No more bans!

888. Faith

Comment #23094 by scottishgeologist on February 26, 2007 at 8:57 am

Fud - a WONDERFUL word. (And a lot of you probably thought it meant Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fud (It looks really funny when it is spelled out like that on the wiki page...)

Something beautifully "Chewin the Fat" -ish about it for those of you who have ever watched this fine program on BBC Scotland.

Anyway, to see the fud in question:

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/output/2006/07/25/newsstory8579896t0.asp

Would you buy a book from this man......?

889. Faith

Comment #23089 by scottishgeologist on February 26, 2007 at 7:54 am

Hey Billy

Youre right about stpetes. No doubt you'll be rushing off to buy his latest book "The Dawkins Letters":

http://www.eden.co.uk/shop/dawkins-letter-the-1001601.html

Or if you are feeling like really banging your head, how about "Deluded by Dawkins":

http://www.standrewsbookshop.co.uk/isbn/1842913557.htm

I love this stuff - faith heads running around like headless chickens trying to stem the flow of reason. Wonder what the next hurredly rushed out title will be. Oh I know: "Dawkins Deluded" that'll do. Must be about the only combination left.

Actually, if you apply the principle of opportunity cost, when you nutjobs are busy occupied writing this garbage, you are not actually out and about spreading your faith venom. So every second spent writing is a second NOT spent indoctrinating. I like that - keep scribbling.

Well listen carefully, faith heads - you might just learn something here. You've had it too good for too long, you've blinded the weak and the vulnerable with your bullshit for long enough.

Watch in despair as the tables start to turn. You've been rumbled. And you are all as empty and useless as the non existent fairies you believe in. Payback time!

890. Is God a Delusion? Atheism and the Meaning of Life

Comment #22979 by scottishgeologist on February 25, 2007 at 8:48 am

Seems there is quite an industry in producing books with Dawkins' name in the title. How about this one:

"Deluded by Dawkins"
http://www.standrewsbookshop.co.uk/isbn/1842913557.htm

Well, full marks for an original title there....

Or this one from our old chum David Robertson:

"The Dawkins Letters"

http://www.eden.co.uk/shop/dawkins-letter-the-1001601.html

Amazing how one man can produce such a response, all these faith heads running round trying to stem the flow of reason....

All I can say is that Dawkins must have hit the target bullseye to have got such a reaction.

891. Foreword for the UK edition of 'Letter to a Christian Nation'

Comment #22428 by scottishgeologist on February 17, 2007 at 6:32 am

maryhelena

The Jesus roject sounds rather like the "Jesus Seminar" (article to be found at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar

Should be interesting to see what come sout of it. The JS was attacked by fundies as "liberal", one group calling it "Satans Masterpiece"

The fact that such a vast amount of research needs to be done and that you still get zillions of christian denominations, no matter what the results, speaks volumes.

Actually, watching denominations attack one another is quite amusing "catholics arent true christians" "charismaniacs are deluded" "if you dont speak in tongues, youre not saved", and so on - just look at all the differnet "-isms" that christianity uses for its different branches.

Yet, they keep telling us that "Scripture tells us..." Whatever "Scripture" says, it cant be that obvious or clear....

892. Fossils: The Devil's Handiwork

Comment #22303 by scottishgeologist on February 14, 2007 at 1:43 am

That is classic! I love the look on his face when he mentions the devil.

There is another beauty along these lines (its a spoof BTW) on the Landover Baptist web site - another absolute GEM of religion-lampooning) where tampons are referred to as "Satans Little Cotton Fingers"

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0999/cotton.html

The whole of that web site is worth a look. Its a piece of sheer brilliance.

893. Guinness 'Evolution' Ad

Comment #22162 by scottishgeologist on February 13, 2007 at 5:32 am

Luthien

Speaking of such "Evil cinemas" nonsense and other such Talibanesque lunacy,I heard a wonderful joke:

Q: Why do Calvinists object to sex standing up?
A: It might lead to dancing.....

(And there was a great advert for Glenfiddich a few years ago - an unbelievably stern looking elderly couple in front of a croft house,(obviously dyed in the wool calvinists) with the comment "Two sure ways to Hell: dancing and Glenfiddich"

Absolutely classic!

894. Is God a Delusion? Atheism and the Meaning of Life

Comment #22150 by scottishgeologist on February 13, 2007 at 4:17 am

When it comes to anti-Jewish rhetoric, you only have to look at the founding father of the Reformation , Martin Luther for some real cracking stuff:

(This comes from Wikipedia:

On the Jews and Their Lies (German: Von den Juden und ihren Lügen) is a treatise written in January 1543 by Martin Luther, the German theologian, in which he advocated harsh persecution of the Jewish people, including that their synagogues and schools be set on fire, prayerbooks destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes razed, and property and money confiscated. Luther argued that Jews should be shown no mercy or kindness, should have no legal protection, and that these "poisonous envenomed worms" should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time. It is widely regarded by scholars as a significant work in the development of modern anti-Semitism. Four centuries later, the Nazis used quotations from this pamphlet, which was cited by the publisher of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer during the Nuremberg trials, to justify the Final Solution.

Luther of course is revered as one of the founders of the Reformation, the great Protestant, looked up to by todays "evangelicals" (AKA blind, bigoted faith heads)

Wonder what Prof McGrath makes of his statements, or , are they like the vile incidents that litter the Old Testament, just conveniently ignored, never preached upon, and if ever mentioned "oh you are just taking them out of context"

(Its a bit like the story of Calvin and the burning of Servetus - evangies squirm and twist and try to wriggle their way sematically round this hideous episode as well - after all, Calvin is their hero...)

895. My critics are wrong to call me dogmatic

Comment #22131 by scottishgeologist on February 13, 2007 at 1:55 am

Howzat

I took a look and couldn't see any good arguments of why the God of the Bible is true while Allah, the Greek gods or any others are not

Good point.

Several weeks ago, on TV, I saw a group of protesting Muslims - one of them held up a placard proclaiming "The Koran is the Third Testament"

Tell me, stpetes, why was this man wrong? Why are Muslims wrong? After all, they accept Jesus as a prophet, they just claim that their religion is a step further on and is the true one.

Makes a degree of sense in a way. If you accept that God revealed himself through Mohammed. Islam is just a further stage in the process - Judaism - Christianity - Islam.

So why is Islam wrong? Are Muslims deluded? And how come only Chritianity is right? After all, the two cannot BOTH be right.

And according to the teachings of both, the false believers are all heading to hell. That means billions of muzzies burning for eternity. Or else, if the muzzies are right, billions of christians suffering eternal torment.

(BTW, Do you really believe that sort of stuff? Do you really preach it? And tell me, after the funeral service for an unbelieving husband, do you tell the grieving widow that her husband (who was never in a church in his life) is now suffering for all eternity? Bet you dont. That would imply a degree of intellectual honesty if you did.)

Of course, it may be, just maybe , might it not , that BOTH religions are wrong? That when you die, thats it. No heaven. No hell. No gods. Its what happens to all other animals after all? Why not the Naked Ape?

896. Guinness 'Evolution' Ad

Comment #22122 by scottishgeologist on February 13, 2007 at 12:56 am

LOL - good one - that should upset a few fundies. Guinness ads have often been good and thought provoking.

Actually, I *think* it was Guinness he was talking about, or it may just have been alchol generally, but that loveable cuddly preacher from Northern Ireland, the Rev Ian Paisley once referred to it as the "Devils buttermilk"

:-)

897. Ancient boy's skeleton sparks evolution debate

Comment #21190 by scottishgeologist on February 8, 2007 at 12:47 am

These sorts of silly views are killing our faith."

Wonderful! Just keep pressing home the attack.

Brings to mind a couple of quotes: First TH Huxleys "Tragedy of science - the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly FACT"

Or, another Huxley (Aldous)
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." ~ Aldous Huxley

"But facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed." ~ Robert Burns, A Dream (1786)

Burns, my countryman, of course had a very incisive way of viewing religion. His "Holy Willies Prayer" (just google for it) should be mandetory in all classrooms)When Burns was alive, Scotland was little more than a theocracy.

Or, Stephen Jay Gould:
"Facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts do not go away while scientists debate rival theories for explaining them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's, but apples did not suspend themselves in mid-air pending the outcome."

898. World's oldest rocks show how Earth may have dodged frozen fate of Mars

Comment #21056 by scottishgeologist on February 7, 2007 at 12:37 pm

Love this stuff! Great FSM page at:

http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster


Contains this gem:

The Noodles Prayer
The most common prayer, as dictated by the prophet Ragu:

Our saucer which art in a colander, draining be Your noodles. Thy noodle come, Thy meatballness be done on earth, as it is meaty in heaven. Give us this day our daily sauce, and forgive us our lack of piracy, as we pirate and smuggle against those who lack piracy with us. And lead us not into vegetarianism, but deliver us from non-red meat sauce. For thine is the colander, the noodle, and the sauce, forever and ever. Ramen.

An alternate prayer, with slightly more Piratical influence:

Our Pasta, who "Arghh" in heaven, Swallowed be thy shame. Thy Midgit come. Thy Sauce be yum, On top some grated Parmesan. Give us this day our garlic bread. And give us our cutlasses, As we swashbuckle, splice the main-brace and cuss. And lead us into temptation, But deliver us some Pizza. For thine are Meatballs, and the beer, and the strippers, for ever and ever. RAmen.

The final deformed/columbined reformed/combined version:

Our pasta, who art in a colander, draining be your noodles. Thy noodle come, Thy sauce be yum, on top some grated Parmesan. Give us this day our garlic bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trample on our lawns. And lead us not into vegetarianism, but deliver us some pizza, for thine is the meatball, the noodle, and the sauce, forever and ever. RAmen.

The gangsta-ass pimp version[1]:

Our pasta, who art in a crazy ass nigga drainn be yo noodles wit tha S-N-double-O-P fo rizeal where tha sun be shinin n I be rhymin. Thy nizzle come, Thy sizzle be yum, on top some grated parmesan dogg. Fo-fo desert eagle ta yo motherfizzles dome fo sheezy so i can get mah pimp on. Its jiznust anotha homocide. Gizzy us this day our garlic bread, n forgive us our lack of piracy, as we pirate n smuggle against those who lack piracy wit us fo sheezy keepn it rizzy yo to increase tha peace. And lead us not into vegetarizzles but deliva us some pizza, fo' thine is tha meatball, tha noodle, n tha sauce, playa n gangsta n shizzay hittin that booty. RAmizzen

Tremendous!

899. Do stop behaving as if you are God, Professor Dawkins

Comment #21051 by scottishgeologist on February 7, 2007 at 12:17 pm

Jeepyjay mentioned Bertrand Russell. Ah! now there is a man who didnt mince his words. I love that story about him:

...on one of his lecture tours of America, Russell found himself at dinner sitting next to the principal of a respectable girls' college, who asked him: 'Why did you give up philosophy?' To which he is supposed to have replied: 'Because I discovered I preferred f*cking.'

Probably apocryphal, but hey its funny. It throws up an amazingly funny picture in my mind of gasps of horror and swooning matrons. And much teenage tittering...

Russell is definitely worth checking out - his observations on Christianity are great. "Why I am not a Christian" is one of his most famous writings.

Interesting that various Christian apologists have come up with books entitles "Why I am a Christian" eg John Stott.

What IS it about these guys that they feel the need to respond to a book with another with a similar title? Lack of imagination? Or just a pantomime style argument "oh yes it is oh no its not..." Or perhaps its simply a case of coat-tailing.

900. Dawkins Delusion (3rd article, Same Stupid Title)

Comment #20973 by scottishgeologist on February 7, 2007 at 6:34 am

Billy, of course there is that other fine piece of edifying prose from the "inerrant, inspired infallible" "word" of "the Lord"

Here it is for those that arent familiar with this portrayal of pure evil:

Judges 19:22-29 (New International Version)

22 While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him."

23 The owner of the house went outside and said to them, "No, my friends, don't be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don't do this disgraceful thing. 24 Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But to this man, don't do such a disgraceful thing."

25 But the men would not listen to him. So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. 26 At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight.

27 When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. 28 He said to her, "Get up; let's go." But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.

29 When he reached home, he took a knife and cut up his concubine, limb by limb, into twelve parts and sent them into all the areas of Israel


Bet you didnt get that in Sunday School did you? Bet you didnt act out that little play did you? No innocent childish drawings of THAT on the walls of the classroom eh?

Even if this is simply a narrative of an evil act that took place, the fact that a story of such evil is considered canonical and included in the Bible just shows how twisted these holy books of hate actually are.

The "offering" of the concubine (Note the way that women are "liberated" in this story) is actually very similar to the story of Sodom and Lots daughters being offered - maybe the two stories are intertwined, cross-translated, mixed up whatever - you tend to get that with old fairy tales....

Whatever, If you made a film of even a small part of the OT, you'd probably end up in jail. The worst porn of today doesnt even come close...

Hey, you dont even find this sort of thing on Ogrish.com...