Comments by Dower

51. Christopher Hitchens to God: Drop Dead

Comment #41926 by Dower on May 17, 2007 at 10:02 am

I'm a Christian and I have Hitchens' book on reserve at the library. Looking forward to reading it. Sounds provocative.

I am a former Christian. So is Dr. Bart D. Ehrman, whose book "Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why" should also be on your reading list.

Regards,

Dower

52. God grief

Comment #41912 by Dower on May 17, 2007 at 9:43 am

My problem with this review:
Why if evangelists and religious fundamentalists are so easy to tear down as 'easy targets' can't we succeed in doing so?

Squinky

As a de-converted Christian, I think the reason it isn't easy to tear down evangelists and religious fundamentalists is that they refuse to read, watch or listen to anything that contradicts their revelations.

53. Christopher Hitchens to God: Drop Dead

Comment #41889 by Dower on May 17, 2007 at 9:12 am

We all know that religion often leads to oppression. But instead of ditching their faith, millions of believers are doing something much more challenging and worthwhile: working on reform.

Religion is delusion. How do you reform delusion?

54. Christopher Hitchens to God: Drop Dead

Comment #41887 by Dower on May 17, 2007 at 9:08 am

Then we go off, clutching our sacred texts, to abuse, oppress, and murder.

Yes, that is exactly what you do.

55. Television evangelist Falwell dies at 73

Comment #41819 by Dower on May 17, 2007 at 6:16 am

Great post, Dr. Benway ...

56. Television evangelist Falwell dies at 73

Comment #41756 by Dower on May 16, 2007 at 8:28 pm

The Atheist Reaction to Falwell's Death
STAFF REPORTS
HumanistNetworkNews.org
May 16, 2007

Atheists have not been timid in their responses to the death on Tuesday of Christian conservative televangelist The Rev. Jerry Falwell.

"...it must be acknowledged in the wake of Rev. Falwell's death that he and the organizations he founded, especially the so-called Moral Majority, were serious threats to our Constitution and, specifically, the separation of church and state.... [he] was a dangerous man who opposed and worked against many of the key values underpinning our secular American democracy," stated Ellen Johnson, president of American Atheists, in a press release.

While always provocative, Falwell alienated many after Sept. 11, 2001, when he blamed the terrorist attacks on the Twin Towers on gays and lesbians, abortion rights advocates, and supporters of secularism. At one time he even blamed the popular children's show The Teletubbies for "promoting" homosexuality (see Matt Bors "Idiot Box" cartoon on this subject in this week's Cathartic Comics section of HNN).

Falwell was often accused of hiding behind his religion so others could not attack him after he voiced strong views. "[Falwell proved] that there is no vileness that cannot be freely uttered by a man whose name is prefaced with the word Reverend," stated Christopher Hitchens in a recent issue of Slate."In his dingy racist past, Falwell attacked those churchmen who mixed the two worlds of faith and politics and called for civil rights. Then he realized that two could play at this game and learned to play it himself.... it's extraordinary that not even such a scandalous career is enough to shake our dumb addiction to the "faith-based."

While Falwell will likely be lionized among theists and conservatives, it appears he will not be missed by atheists. It remains to be seen if his controversial ideas live on after his death.

Humanist Network News is a weekly e-zine and monthly podcast of the Institute for Humanist Studies. The Institute for Humanist Studies promotes humanism, a non-religious philosophy based on reason and compassion. IHS advances human rights, secular ethics and the separation of religion and government through advocacy, innovation and collaboration.

Great article. Fair and rational without resorting to hatemongering and name-calling. A good role model for this board.

57. The stone is cast

Comment #41679 by Dower on May 16, 2007 at 2:52 pm

LOL. Funny thing is, right after I clicked 'Submit', I noticed that, too, and thought, "At least I'm giving him/her something to harp on to save face", so I skipped the editing. Glad I could help.

Nice little story to save your own face.

Dower

58. Television evangelist Falwell dies at 73

Comment #41670 by Dower on May 16, 2007 at 2:14 pm

What would you suggest people do in that situation?

What purpose does it serve to go on a rant, calling a dead man every derogatory name in the book? He's dead.

I understand you're glad he's dead. That's fine. You are being intellectually honest.

But what purpose does it serve (talking to everybody here) to keep on ranting about what a horrible person he was.

He's dead, he's gone, he no longer exists.

It serves no purpose to keep on kicking the corpse.

That's all I am going to say on the subject.

So, save your energy, kids. I won't be responding to any follow-ups.

Dower

59. The stone is cast

Comment #41644 by Dower on May 16, 2007 at 1:06 pm

The whole sorry fiasco is nothing more than an example of the herd instinct. Two posts ("f--k you" and "in the ass") popped up, and the herd took off.

60. Television evangelist Falwell dies at 73

Comment #41636 by Dower on May 16, 2007 at 12:40 pm

Being glad that Falwell is dead is no more "hateful" than being glad if the news surfaced that Bin Laden was dead.

I would not rejoice over the death of Bin Laden or the death of any other human being, including Falwell.

If there's one thing I have learned since leaving the christian church and rejecting the whole idea of an afterlife, it is this: Life is precious, and we only have one.

It is sad to see anybody wasting their lives following some sky-god, and rejoicing over their deaths is hateful.

61. Television evangelist Falwell dies at 73

Comment #41633 by Dower on May 16, 2007 at 12:22 pm

I'm glad Dover is incorrect in his many false claims

OK, get with it. Prove my claims false. And by the way, the name is Dower.

62. Television evangelist Falwell dies at 73

Comment #41577 by Dower on May 16, 2007 at 10:39 am

Baron, I was a fundmentalist christian. For years, I refused to read anything but the bible and books published by fundamentalist publishing houses. I would not entertain any thought that contradicted any of the "biblical beliefs" that I held so dear. My experience is typical of fundamentalist christians, such as your friend.

I found my way out when I began to recognize the inconsistencies in the sacred book. A lot of christians will not accept the idea that the bible has errors because they are taught (from the pulpit) that the bible is "the verbally inspired, inerrant word of god." Most christians accept what they are taught from the pulpit and never try to verify the authenticity of the message for themselves.

63. Television evangelist Falwell dies at 73

Comment #41572 by Dower on May 16, 2007 at 10:18 am

I still don't get where so many christians get this idea of persecution?

Some ideas:

Because they run into opposition when:

1) They want to put nativity scenes on public property.

2) They want to throw out the theory of evolution and teach creationism in the schools.

3) They want to put the ten commandments in all the courts and schools.

4) They want to persecute gays.

5) They want to ban abortion.

In other words, they feel persecuted because they don't get their way. And they will never cease to feel persecuted until the day they set up a theocracy that is based on their holy book.

64. The stone is cast

Comment #41567 by Dower on May 16, 2007 at 10:06 am

If that makes me a hate-monger (or, as you put it, a "hate-mongerer")

Good eye, Mr. Maxwell, but actually the word is spelled "hatemonger," without the hyphen.

65. Television evangelist Falwell dies at 73

Comment #41556 by Dower on May 16, 2007 at 9:49 am

Well we are souless amoral atheists, what was his excuse?

He had more of an excuse that us soul-less, amoral atheists. He was delusional.

66. Television evangelist Falwell dies at 73

Comment #41555 by Dower on May 16, 2007 at 9:46 am

Venom flows on anti-Falwell blogs

This is the headline on WorldnetDaily.com, one of the most widely read boards on the Internet.

Great P.R. for our cause, right?

This is why I think the trash talk on the RD boards was so damaging.

67. Television evangelist Falwell dies at 73

Comment #41552 by Dower on May 16, 2007 at 9:41 am

The same methods?

A straw-man argument.

I am talking about his hateful and venom-filled pronouncements. The same hateful and venom-filled prouncements showing up on this board.

When you talk like that, you people are no better that Falwell.

68. The stone is cast

Comment #41548 by Dower on May 16, 2007 at 9:36 am

Therefore, Dower's assertion that it "Seems like Flynt has more decency that a lot of the posters here" is unwarranted and inappropriate.

Given that Flynt has provided the probablity that many posters would like Falwell if they came to know him, it is prudent that the hate-mongerers now cut Falwell some slack.

Including you, Mr. Maxwell. So much for the pot calling the ketle black.

69. Television evangelist Falwell dies at 73

Comment #41527 by Dower on May 16, 2007 at 8:35 am

Oh c'mon chill out. No is calling for the practice and preaching of Christianity, in even it's most odious forms to be punishable by stoning. Which is the fate this wannabe Herman Goering had in mind for plenty of his fellow humans. We didn't kill him, we're just genuinely pleased a deeply unpleasant and dangerous man is dead.

Nothing wrong with that, would you have been weeping at the bedside of Jim Jones? Falwell has inflicted far more suffering and misery than Jimmy could have dreamed of. Probably because Jimmy was sincerely insane, Falwell was a cardboard cutout fraud.

I am not defending Falwell. I am just opposing the way the board is using the same methods he did in spreading his hate and venom.

70. Television evangelist Falwell dies at 73

Comment #41512 by Dower on May 16, 2007 at 8:11 am

But don't let me stop you enjoying your self-righteousness, Dower. You clearly love it. :-)

Oh, I see. To oppose hate-mongering, to oppose irrationality, to demand valid arguments and evidence is to be self-righteous.

Silly me.

71. Television evangelist Falwell dies at 73

Comment #41507 by Dower on May 16, 2007 at 7:58 am

let's be glad that one particularly loud and influential voice has gone, no longer able to stir up hatred.

Yeah, and meanwhile, let's go on stirring up hatred on this board.

How irrational.

72. The stone is cast

Comment #41492 by Dower on May 16, 2007 at 7:29 am

Dower I'm sure they found plenty in common.

Baron, although I have seen no evidence that Falwell and Flynt have anything more in common than that their last names begin with an "F," there is some degree of probability that you could be right. I base that assessment on the two full pages of legal action taken against clergymen that are printed each month in the Freedom from Religion Foundation's monthly newspaper.

73. The stone is cast

Comment #41488 by Dower on May 16, 2007 at 7:20 am

My mother always told me that no matter how much you dislike a person, when you meet them face to face you will find characteristics about them that you like. Jerry Falwell was a perfect example of that. I hated everything he stood for, but after meeting him in person, years after the trial, Jerry Falwell and I became good friends.

Porno king Larry Flynt's reaction to the death of Jerry Falwell. Seems like Flynt has more decency that a lot of the posters here.

74. The stone is cast

Comment #41483 by Dower on May 16, 2007 at 7:16 am

calling me insane is a personal attack

Dear, dear Jay. I didn't call you insane. You applied a factual statement to yourself.

75. Television evangelist Falwell dies at 73

Comment #41479 by Dower on May 16, 2007 at 7:10 am

I have it on very reliable evidence that Falwell admitted as he was dying that he knew there was not god.

So, show us the evidence.

76. Atheists with Attitude: Why do they hate Him?

Comment #41465 by Dower on May 16, 2007 at 6:46 am

Many Christians expect Jesus Christ to return to earth in the immediate future, and usher in an end of the world as we know it. This belief has been common since the founding of Christianity in the 1st century CE. As the second millennium CE came to a close, belief was particularly high:
bullet An Associated Press survey in 1997 revealed that 24% of American adults expected to be still alive when Jesus returns. Many of these probably believe that they would be raptured (elevated from the earth to be with Jesus) and thus will never experience death.

A poll conducted for Newsweek magazine in 1999-JUN asked American adults whether they believed that Jesus would return during the next millennium -- i.e. between years 2001 and 3000 CE. Results were:

All persons surveyed : 52%
Evangelical Protestants: 71%
Non-Evangelical Protestants: 48%
Roman Catholics: 47%
Non-Christians: 20%

This may be the source of Harris' research.

77. The stone is cast

Comment #41435 by Dower on May 16, 2007 at 5:54 am

Jayalenik,

So you are into irrational, personal attacks against nonbelievers as well as personal, vulgar-spewing, hater-mongering, irrational attacks against believers.

That is one of the symptoms of insanity, trying to run off in two directions at the same time.

Dower

78. The stone is cast

Comment #41409 by Dower on May 16, 2007 at 5:07 am

Nice to see a fair and rational review of the life of Jerry Falwell.

And thanks to the vulgar, hate-mongering reaction of the majority of the posters on these boards, I have been enlightened to the irrationality of a modern-day lynch mob.

There was no excuse for it.

79. Television evangelist Falwell dies at 73

Comment #41295 by Dower on May 15, 2007 at 8:07 pm

Foxfire, Smithnya, your posts are the best yet. Fair, compassionate and rational, without in any way condoning Falwell's actions. My hat's off to you both.

Dower

80. Television evangelist Falwell dies at 73

Comment #41282 by Dower on May 15, 2007 at 7:15 pm

Very good post, Smithnya. "Respecting the dead" is not the point, here. In this case, the dead is not worthy of respect. The point is that as athiests we need to rise above the hate-mongering of our opponents. And we cannot do that by being hate-mongerers ourselves.

81. Television evangelist Falwell dies at 73

Comment #41194 by Dower on May 15, 2007 at 3:42 pm

Contributors..

The greatest gift that freedom from religion and ideology offers is true and unbound freedom. The use of that power in the form of vitriol exhibited by many here is obvious. In the Darwinian context, will such expression enhance or attenuate our survival as a group? I lament the loss of a member of our species and celebrate loss of the dogma exuded by him.

Drjez, Well-spoken.

Thanks,

Dower

82. Television evangelist Falwell dies at 73

Comment #41184 by Dower on May 15, 2007 at 3:29 pm

Hey Logicel
can I flag dower for lame sarcasim

Learn to spell the word, first.

Dower

83. Television evangelist Falwell dies at 73

Comment #41136 by Dower on May 15, 2007 at 2:33 pm

Dower, you can flag those posts as offensive.

Logicel, thanks for the tip.

BTW, I have already noticed on the networks and cable-TV the mourning for Falwell is under way. Why mourning? If what awaits Christians isn't better than the lives they have now, why not rejoice?

For example, shouldn't they be saying: "Dr. Falwell, you lucky guy, you. I wish it had been me and not you?"

Wouldn't that be more rational, given the Christian belief system?

84. Television evangelist Falwell dies at 73

Comment #41132 by Dower on May 15, 2007 at 2:25 pm

Logicel, messages like No. 4 and No. 5 are what I was referring to. Those kinds of personal attacks are unwarranted. Nothing wrong with using Falwell's own statements to hang him out to dry.

I was just concerned about the personal attacks putting off some fence-sitters. I welcome every sheep who leaves the fold. I want them to hang around to get the message, not send them back to the fold in disgust, thinking there is no better way.

Dower

85. Television evangelist Falwell dies at 73

Comment #41111 by Dower on May 15, 2007 at 1:54 pm

Is it just me, or does anybody else here think that some of the hateful things being said about Falwell are as bad as the hateful things Falwell said about us?

This does not help our cause, folks. Fence-sitters arriving at this board will come to the conclusion that the athiests have no more to offer than the theists.

I would suggest that we focus our attacks not the man, but on the man's ideology, as some of you are already doing.

86. Statement of Concern about Impact of AIG's Creation 'Museum'

Comment #41016 by Dower on May 15, 2007 at 10:46 am

Unfortunately, religion will never be "wiped" out, either by reason or by force.

Zeus was swept into the dustbin of history. God will be to.

87. Hitchens vs. Hannity on Religion and God

Comment #40966 by Dower on May 15, 2007 at 9:07 am

Hi Dower, when did you bail yourself out of the celestial prison? A fellow "minister" of the gospel here, albeit from quite some time ago. There do seem to be a few of us knocking around these days:-)

Hi, Brian.

I bailed out years ago when I became an elder in my church and was called upon to preach whenever the pastor was gone. I took my position seriously and did extensive research when preparing my sermons. The inconsistencies I found in the biblical text were mind-boggling and the attempts by Christian apologists to explain them away fell short.

Erhman, Hitchens, Dawkins and Harris have done the world a favor by exposing the different belief systems for what they are: man-made institutions.

My son remains a hard-core fundamentalist (thanks to my indoctrination of him as a child), but my daughter is a skeptic. She will not brainwash her own daughter the way I brainwashed my children.

88. Christopher Hitchens Explains It All for You: Move over, Sam Harris; another atheist wants the pulpit

Comment #40948 by Dower on May 15, 2007 at 8:37 am

Christopher Hitchens is wrong. Intellect by itself cannot save us. As this interesting but mostly irrational tome shows, it can't even save him.

What the hell do we need to be saved from?

89. Hitchens vs. Hannity on Religion and God

Comment #40938 by Dower on May 15, 2007 at 8:26 am

As a onetime fundamentalist lay preacher, I can attest to the fact that many believers find their faith, however unwarranted, a virtue. In fact, they regard it as evidence of God, for their sacred book teaches them that:

... "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1)

As long as believers base their faith on the sacred texts, the only way to expose the fallacy of their belief system is to point out the fallacies in their sacred book.

Bart D. Ehrman, a former fundamentalist Christian himself, does an excellent job of exposing these fallacies in his book "Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why."

90. Why Christopher Hitchens is not Great

Comment #40710 by Dower on May 14, 2007 at 6:41 pm

Sam Harris not only has a bachelor's degree in philosophy, he is working on a doctorate in neuroscience.

91. Why Christopher Hitchens is not Great

Comment #40646 by Dower on May 14, 2007 at 4:11 pm

Jesus himself forgave the adulterer and told her accusers to only punish her if they themselves were innocent.

Hitchens made it pretty clear (showed the evidence) that this passage was not in the original text of the sacred book. McCullough chose to pass over that evidence (for which he had no answer?).

92. Among the Disbelievers

Comment #40494 by Dower on May 14, 2007 at 11:04 am

If one does not believe in God, what should one believe in instead?

This appears to be the writer's biggest concern. Why does he feel he has to have something to believe in? The religious appear to be very insecure in their religious beliefs ("If I don't have God to hang onto, what do I have left to hang onto?")

93. Growing Up in the Universe: 2-Disc DVD Set

Comment #39550 by Dower on May 11, 2007 at 5:39 am

94. Growing Up in the Universe: 2-Disc DVD Set

Comment #39549 by Dower on May 11, 2007 at 5:38 am

Subtitles are also needed for those of us who are deaf. I would appreciate it if the next edition had them.

Thanks,

Dower

95. More on the Atheism Front

Comment #39345 by Dower on May 10, 2007 at 11:20 am

>>Phillip E. Johnson (born 1940) is a retired UC Berkeley American law professor and author. He became a born-again Christian as a tenured professor ... <<

Why do they have to be so sneaky? Are they so insecure in their so-called belief system that they have to use deception to try to destroy the arguments of those who do not agree?

96. Is Christianity Good for the World?

Comment #39329 by Dower on May 10, 2007 at 10:23 am

Wilson says: " ... we must receive the gift of forgiveness" ...

Forgiveness for what? From who? Says who?

97. More on the Atheism Front

Comment #39172 by Dower on May 10, 2007 at 5:56 am

Wilson, like most Christians, doesn't question the origins of the sacred book upon which he bases all of his arguments.

As a longtime, onetime fundamentalist lay preacher, I have been on the other side and heard all the arguments and, regretfully, taught them to others.

It was only after I dropped my "confirmation bias" and began looking at the other side of the equation that I saw the error of my ways.

BTW, the Nightline atheist-Christian debate was painful to watch. I felt sorry for those on the Christian side who arrived with "irrefutable proof" that God existed ("the world was created, therefore there is a creator').

I used to believe that myself.

98. An ecumenical contempt for religion

Comment #38440 by Dower on May 8, 2007 at 5:30 am

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1007-03.htm

Here's will you will find the "Bush says God told him to invade Iraq" article.

99. Republican candidates range from ignorant to dishonest

Comment #37399 by Dower on May 4, 2007 at 11:36 am

I will not vote for another bible-thumping, born-again Christian fundamentalist ... in name or in reality ... we need leaders, men or women who will follow reason, not blind faith ... I turned away from religion after being enlightened to the fact that the sacred book I spent so many years preaching out of was written by the finger of man, not the finger of a sky-god ...

100. The God disunion: there is a place for faith in science, insists Winston

Comment #34760 by Dower on April 25, 2007 at 6:17 am

Judaism, Islamism and Christianity are all religions "of the book." Take away "the book," and they are nothing.

As a Christian lay preacher (former), I blindly accepted the bible as the literal and inerrant word of God (faith). Once I put aside my preconceived viewpoints and studied the bible critically, (reason) I became aware that it was not what it was what it claimed to be.

As long as Lord Winston is a practicing Jew (faith), he will remain blind to all the fallacies of the Talmud (reason).

Faith and reason cannot co-exist. It's one or the other. The argument that you can have it both ways is the argument of fools.