51. What's wrong with science as religion

Comment #222562 by Vinelectric on July 31, 2008 at 2:35 pm

I am not convinced that science is even capable of knowing everything.

So, we need to make the rest up. A very good excuse, that is.

If the writer has any understanding of the concept of "worship" in the Judaeo-Christian sense viz the duality of love and fear of the object of worship, the root word in Hebrew denoting "service"..etc he would not be confusing the religious worhip of God with the feelings of awe and wonder that science can induce in those who come to understand it.

Rubbish.

52. Breeding for God

Comment #221906 by Vinelectric on July 30, 2008 at 9:32 am

Old Sarum

I know where you're coming from. It is almost nauseating to see Fanusi deliberately confusing the "intoleratnt" Muslim with the average one, Serdan making the unbelievable claim that he knows of no assimilating Muslim (watched the UK "Apprentice" in recent years?) and even Rod the farmer suggesting that immigration is to be stopped altogether, a view more charactersitic of the National Front than non-xenophobic Humanism.

Don't get too worked up on this but know that the administrators will not publish any reassuring articles that do not feed a certain paranoid anti-Muslims mindset.

Here are some of the articles that I sent to them and were turned down for publication:

Sam Harris is wrong to say that the Muslim community does not disowe atrocities committed in their name:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4694441.stm

Muslim public opinion converges with that of the West:

http://www.gallup.com/press/104209/Who-Speaks-Islam-What-Billion-Muslims-Really-Think.aspx

Immigrant Muslims can and do assimilate well into Western societies, non conforming fundamentalists are a nuisance to everyone:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-when-two-sides-of-islam-go-head-to-head-852358.html

(OK I admit I can find better links to support this last point, will try to look for one soon).

53. Breeding for God

Comment #221397 by Vinelectric on July 29, 2008 at 3:24 pm

You people in the UK need to do something about this rise of Islam

Have more sex.

You haven't been reading the article. You need to out-sex religious people.

Don't ask me how you're going to fund bringing up your little army though, just do it.

54. Council ban on atheist websites

Comment #221391 by Vinelectric on July 29, 2008 at 3:16 pm

Dr Technical

Re comments 47,49, come on guys, give me some credit, I do understand the point of the original article. Note the ";-)"

Trust me, I know the feeling!

55. Sydney brothels say Pope's visit will give business a leg-up

Comment #219330 by Vinelectric on July 26, 2008 at 5:07 pm

SilentMike

Nice reply and very educational. I agree we should be referring to it as the Israel-Hizbollah conflict.

It's probably an odd coincidence that yourself, living in Israel, and myself living in the muslim Middle East happen to think that this particular conflict is not primarily driven by religion. I think we both should keep quiet and let those, educated by Internet propaganda, do all the interesting analysis of this complicated situation.

Would you also remind us how other Muslim countries such as Morocco and Jordan hold no issues with Israel? (It's probably because they don't have the means..wink wink). You can also recall that even Saudi Arabia has held Nasrallah responsible for the conflict. Now agree or disagree with the Saudis, they really are the "proper" Muslims in the region.

Deep down it really is a fight for territory and the reigns of power and influence in the Middle East.

56. Sydney brothels say Pope's visit will give business a leg-up

Comment #219319 by Vinelectric on July 26, 2008 at 4:41 pm

Nairb

Are you saying religion plays no part in conflict between Israel and Lebannon?

Of course I didn't and you can read for yourself what I wrote above.

If you took religion out of the equation, you'd still be left with the territorial dispute where Hizbollah wanted to reclaim Southern Lebanon from Israeli occupation (I'm referring to the origins of the conflict, not the 2006 complication). Israel, in turn, had originally occupied these lands to set up a safe buffer zone against its northern neighbour.

That is slightly different from the Palestenian/Israeli conflict where you can trace the origin of the difficulties to the Palestenian revolt against the immigrating Jews who had laid claim to the land for religious reasons. Here it could be argued that religion is really at the core of the matter.

I think that you'd fall out with anyone if they'd threatened/trespassed your private property irrespective of their religious persuasions.

As for the 2006 Israeli attack on Lebanon, Human Rights Watch have pointed out that, contrary to claims by Israel, the IDF has failed to discriminate between combatants and civilians. It goes to show that the IDF is as potentially detrimental to the stability of the region as HAMAS is. Hezbollah must have known this but still gambled by kidnapping the Israeli soldiers. We knew it was an idiotic decision even before the war started but such was the situation where the Israeli response was so brutal and disproportionate that no one (in the Middle East) would dare criticize Hasan Nasrallah's naive intuition.

57. Sydney brothels say Pope's visit will give business a leg-up

Comment #219215 by Vinelectric on July 26, 2008 at 1:34 pm

Village-idiot

Easy, you're losing it mate, come back to the thread when you've calmed down.

35blujacket

The purpose of the photos are to outrage you, stir you to the core of your soul and show the dangers of dogma,

I'm glad you were moved. These pictures are typical of daytime Arabic news channels. Keeps the public informed but refreshes the cycle of violence with knee jerk emotive responses from the public.

Please read more about the Israelie Lebanese conflict. Your conclusion that it is all to do with dogma (neglecting the fact that territorial occupation has nothing to do with it) is not true.

Do you know that Jordan is almost 100% Muslim yet remained at peace with Israel? In fact displaced Palestenians amount to almost 60% of the population. Do you think they are not as dogmatic as Hizbollah? Trust me they are but they don't have an active territorial dispute with Israel.

I can repeat this again if you want me to. Religious dogma is dangerous but as it happens, it is not the prime cause of the conflict in this particular case. That is not being sympathetic to religions, that is saying it as it really is (from a personal perspective).

If you or Village Idiot do not agree then simply state so without concluding that we are stupid. I'm also trying to suppress the tendency to make such remarks so control yourself and clear your head instead of forcing an opinion on your audience.

58. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #219090 by Vinelectric on July 26, 2008 at 8:51 am

Steve Zara

Even if it was an explosion (a 14th century bedouin/a 21st century child may think of it as such) I've already given Joe the links to show him that the Arabic words in this verse were interpreted differently by those living at the time of the prophet such as Abdullah Ibn Abbas.

59. Sydney brothels say Pope's visit will give business a leg-up

Comment #219024 by Vinelectric on July 26, 2008 at 5:44 am

Village-Idiot

Hmm, nothing to do with religion? Who are you trying to convince? Take this back or I'll be, using your phraseology, certainly suspicious of your intelligence!

Hahaha..! You silly moo..

Someone had suspected that you had a soft spot for religion when you linked the hizbollah site. I was saying to 35bluejacket that that had nothing to do with anyone being sympathetic to religion. It was a humanitarian crisis irrespective of the motive so it deserved our attention anyway.

Understand?

EDIT: by the way Lebanon/hizbollah fell out with Israel over occupied lands. Religion made matters worse but it is not the main issue here.

60. Toward a Type 1 civilization

Comment #218787 by Vinelectric on July 25, 2008 at 5:32 pm

Here, here.

Just in case anyone missed JAMCAM87 first post, you must check out the youtube link, especially the last minute of the interview.

Go, on..

61. Sydney brothels say Pope's visit will give business a leg-up

Comment #218777 by Vinelectric on July 25, 2008 at 5:16 pm

35bluejacket

Your religious slip is showing.

That conflict has had world wide repercussions. Nothing to do with religion. Not sure what village-idiot's intentions were. I'm certainly suspicious of yours !

62. Sydney brothels say Pope's visit will give business a leg-up

Comment #218772 by Vinelectric on July 25, 2008 at 5:08 pm

.. many of them do it because of their own personal repression," Eros spokesman Robbie Swan told AFP. "And often it's because of religion."

Yeah pimp, whatever. Tabloid coloumn fillers on the website, always a joy to read.

Next topic please...

63. Islam subway ads cause stir in New York

Comment #218378 by Vinelectric on July 25, 2008 at 10:37 am

Al

EDIT: kkelly beat me to it.

The study you linked has more to say on the context of domestic violence. Men are less likely to suffer grave harm at the hands of their female partners. No onder why they aren't as keen to report.

Link to aricle



..However, men were more likely than women to commit "severe" acts of violence, such as beating, choking, burning, forcing sex or actually using a knife or gun on their partners...

I don't know what other studies confirm their claim that women are more likely to perpetrate such crimes but these are the national statistical figures for the UK:

2006 UK Home Office Crimes report:

• The majority of victims of domestic violence were women (77%) while most victims of
stranger violence were men (76%, Table 3.03).

Judging by national statistics it seems that feminists are justified in claiming that men are more responsible for serious domestic violence than women.

64. Richard Dawkins slaps creationists into the primordial soup

Comment #217458 by Vinelectric on July 24, 2008 at 11:21 am

black wolf

I'm also eagerly awaiting the responses to your question on possible mechanisms underlying quantum fluctuations.

The religious position is often expressed as the need for an absolute standard of evaluation, necessarily external to our own understanding.

Religion has to explain what justifies their suggestion that there must be an absolute standard (for such things as morality) to begin with. They also need to explain where they got that concept of "nothingness" and "creation ex-nihilo" from and why we so deperately need a sustainer god.

Physicists look for a unifying theory with an open mind. Such a theory may or may not exist but as long as we can come up with a mechanism to help explain natural phoenomena in a uniform and predictable manner everyone will be happy.

Furthermore, practically speaking we improve on the health services, production lines, the law by practically auditing what we do. We begin by defining an agreable gold standard and then compare our efforts to it. Eventually our practise supersed the golden standards and we end up redefining them.

We have advanced civilzation by denying the absolute.Why be sympathetic to the rigid religious "absolute standard" at all?

65. Richard Dawkins slaps creationists into the primordial soup

Comment #217430 by Vinelectric on July 24, 2008 at 10:44 am

aberdeen

If Dawkins doesn't know if there is a God, then he should say so

Bad start, Richard always says he can't be 100% certain there is not a god of some description.

There is no evidence that anything in motion has ever come to be in motion by itself, without something else first causing it to be put in motion. ,

And thus so we conclude that the concept of a "prime mover" is unacceptable.

By the way, nature is full of examples that contradict your premise.

*The changing axis of the Earth's magnetic field.
* Your self-charging heart circuitry will continue to work untill something forces it to pack up.
*Your sleep and wakefullness cycle is naturally automated.
* A radioactive sample will decay without anyone's permission. Particle physicists will tell you weird and wonderfull stories about particles that come into being and disappear without a trace.

That line of reasoning is no use to your cause.

66. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #216737 by Vinelectric on July 23, 2008 at 1:07 pm

al-rawandi

The fatalism of Islam is what makes the calls to convert truly amusing.

The mother of all psychological subversion.

67. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #216733 by Vinelectric on July 23, 2008 at 1:04 pm

al-rawandi

You've certainly sabotaged his efforts to impress the audience! What face of Islam is this guy promoting by abusing white pearl and talking dirty back to you?

He's either too dumb for you to care or really putting it on.

68. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #216712 by Vinelectric on July 23, 2008 at 12:45 pm

Joe Morreale / Khanzee / Clearmind:

Re: 21:30 and 75:3-4.

Have you not noticed that 21:30 contradicts the Big Bang model in every way? Stars are born when gaseous nebulae condense or clump together not "cleft asunder". Planets are born when interstellar dust "comes together" into larger lumps or as by-products of star formation.

The verse seems to imply that the stars and planets were one entity that disintegrated into its constituents. And that is the meaning you give in the translation, not the true meaning according to Muhammad's trusted companions. In fact the true meaning, as I've alreay linked twice before, is more to do with Allah imbuing the (seven) heavens and Earth with the means to support life.

Interestingly, Muhammad's theory turned out to be the exact opposite of what we've come to learn through direct obsrvation and sound scientific reasoning. That should be an embarrasement not something to brag about.

As for 75:3-4, I've already explained to you that the actual meaning, according to Ibn Abbas, (the best man to understand the Quran according to Muhammad himself), is much less impressive and more bizarre than what you've been led to believe.

These verses may cause you to de-convert one day. That will only happen when you learn the language and get to read entry-level Islamic texts for yourself.

69. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #216010 by Vinelectric on July 22, 2008 at 4:54 pm

Khanzee

Secondly, If a geometrical shape (i.e a square) can be drawn from a point which has no dimensions mathematically, why then can the world not be created from nothing?

Comparing Apples and Oranges is misleading. If a figure of a square can not be formed without the use of sketching material(graphite, ink, photons on a computer screen) then why is it assumed that the universe can can be formed without building material?

Have you not noticed that sharp geometry(straight lines, round circles) is not a charactersitc of animal or plant structures? Look at your own body. There are no straight lines like the ones we intentionally draw on a piece of paper, your heartbeats vary in rate and interval duration all the time, there are no right angled structures, the colour of your skin varies from one millimeter to the other...etc

That suggests to me that natural structures come about without the carefull input of a designer.

70. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #215994 by Vinelectric on July 22, 2008 at 4:27 pm

Khanzee

Thirdly, if the universe was created by chance, then obviously it could not be governed by laws

I'm no physicist but allow me to recommend a book for you to read.

Do you have a good background in Mathematics? Try the "Comprehenisble Cosmos" by Vic Stegner to understand how the laws of physics are not laws imposed on the universe as such but a are akin to an intrinsic property that arises spontaneously from the principles of gauge invariance (when we choose to study the universe from a mathematically idependant frame of referrence).


Oystein Elgaroy

It is not the "nothing" we have a problem with

I'm under the impression that both philosophers and scientists agree that the concept of "nothingness" is untenable and that the current understanding of the big bang does not lend support to such a thing. For the bang to happen there must have been something to bang in the first place.

Is that not true?

71. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #215942 by Vinelectric on July 22, 2008 at 2:20 pm

Joe Morreale

We are able to put together in perfect order the very TIPS OF HIS FINGERS

Learn your Arabic and your Quran. Tabari and Ibn Katheer explain: We are able to create him with cattle hooves instead of fingers.


Read this.

REMEMBER THAT YOU HAVE NOT DIED BEFORE

And neither have you.

4:56 Those who reject Our signs, We shall soon cast into the fire;

Your god is an immoral thug. You might as well enslave yourself to the next mobster you meet.

72. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #215920 by Vinelectric on July 22, 2008 at 1:50 pm

Joe Morreale

We received a new threat regarding my latest book [on Freemasonry] only yesterday, directed against myself, for the book not to come out; it came from the Freemasons, who phoned a friend of mine.

If there was a conspiracy theory behind any of this it would be that Haruy Yahya is an agent of a committed anti-Muslim group who wants to ridicule Muslims so that the myth that they are beyond repair persists for ever. I'm still entertaining the possibility that you yourself are a Jihad-Watch puppet. I live in a Muslim country but I haven't come across people as closed-minded as you are.

73. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #215912 by Vinelectric on July 22, 2008 at 1:39 pm

Joe Morreale

You need to be carefull with darwinism-watch. The section on the vestigial organs is full of non-factual info. The appendix has no "important" role in the immune system. In fact it has an important role in causing death and disease as it is the commonest source of acute surgical pathology.

Biologists do not claim that humans evolved from modern apes but that we share a common ancestor with them.

It really is irresponsible of those who author that site to cause unnecessary confusion by doubting that which science and common observation (as in the case of the frequency of appedicitis) just to win a case for a deity.

The site also keeps talking about how impossible it is for amino acids to form spontaneously when we've already observed how such molecules come pre-formed in meteors from outer space.

Have you read the link to the Endogenous Retro-virus video on youtube? This is not just established scientific fact but we have already made use of these observations to treat nasty cancerous growths that your god presumably invented.

You really have no excuse for falling for the creationist fraud unless you just feel in the mood for surrendering your faculty of reason to those who don't know what they're talking about.

74. Richard Dawkins on Al Jazeera English

Comment #215561 by Vinelectric on July 22, 2008 at 6:09 am

Prof Richard Dawkins

Thanks for appearing on al Jazeera, I've sent you a private message a few days ago as I was desperate that you'd make an appearance in Middle Eastern media soon. Have you read the current edition of Prospect Magazine and their shocking poll results on who people think are the world's most influential intellectuals? The top ten were Muslims like Qaradawi and you came 19th. Ridiculous, isn't it?

People in our part of the world are simply not used to anyone challenging their worldview in anyway. Your brief response to the "Adam" question is a much needed spark to stimulate someone out there, in the intellectually suffocating Islamic world, to maybe give their religious convicitions a second thought.

The US and Canada have enough intellectuals to help them sort their religious infestations. Why not divert a bit of your attention to the Middle East for a change? That would be very much appreciated.

Regards
Taha

75. Richard Dawkins on Al Jazeera English

Comment #215390 by Vinelectric on July 21, 2008 at 7:07 pm

A dream come true!

Welcome Welcome Proff...

76. Surgeon General Nominee Dismisses Homosexuality Paper

Comment #215309 by Vinelectric on July 21, 2008 at 3:51 pm

kkelly

It's sad but true, the anus and rectum don't handle repeated cock-poundings all that well. But why would a straight man care enough to investigate it?

Maybe you're trying to prove a point about public perception of homosexual acts but it is obvious your comments have backfired, anyhow to answer the question:

They do, because in clinical practise, vaginal childbirth is the commonest cause for urinary and faecal incontinence. Augmentation of the pelvic sphincters is still not routinely available but can be achieved by injecting ceramic based bulking agents around the anal/urinary sphincters under ultrasound guidance. Surgical options do exist but are too drastic to be offered casually.



See this peer reviewed article


By the way, fistulae and enlarged haemorrhoids (note the latter are normal anatomical structures) have many other causes but usually result from habitual straining and a tendency to constipation. Many patients would deny that and it is suspected that there is an underlying structural weakness in the tissues supporting the anal canal in those people.

Nevertheless anal intercourse is unnecessary trauma and one "risk factor" than can be controlled. Faecal incontinence is quite disabling and healthcare professionals should be as keen on discouraging it as they do with heavy drinking and even smoking. That advice would be directed at both heterosexual couples and gay men.

77. VOICES OF SCIENCE - Available Now on DVD

Comment #211255 by Vinelectric on July 15, 2008 at 4:52 pm

And forgot to say, whilst the English are fond of the rhetorical trick of empahsizing a subject by deliberately mentioning it in a disparaging manner e.g I was a bit confused (meaning very confused) or He was a bit rude (well if that were true then it wouldn't have bothered you at wall, wouldn't it?). Dawkins sometimes achieves the exact opposite when being dismissive of a subject by acknowleding its importance in a very limited way.

As an example, Weinberg states how disappointing that the Muslims have abandoned science starting around the 12th century given their role in...(I assume he means their positive role in advancing science).

Dawkins interrupts to do two things: first he states a fact "their role in preserving Greek science". The other thing is that, by intervening to end the coversation there and then he is effectively excluding any other interpretation of what Weinberg ought to say: their additional role in actually contributing to that science as well (which is also a fact!).

Maybe I'm being a bit paranoid but some people are so measured in their speech and so carefull with their choice of words it makes you wonder whether the Prof was making a statement by making an under-statement!

78. VOICES OF SCIENCE - Available Now on DVD

Comment #211243 by Vinelectric on July 15, 2008 at 4:32 pm

I'm really embarrased as I was unable to understand a lot of what Weinberg was saying and would apprecaite some help. Dawkins appeared to follow comfortably when I failed completely to grasp some of the concepts being discussed!


1. What does the term multiverse mean exactly?

The chaotic inflation model postulates that our bang is one possible event out of many outcomes of random fluctuations of some primordial field. "Successful" outcomes lead to rapid inflations and failed ones go nowhere. Thus a bang is one of mutually exclusive outcomes of the fluctuations of that source field.

Thus one would understand a multiverse to be a term referring to the set of all possible universes not many universes "in parallell" as some cosmologists such as Max Tegmark suggest.

http://www.wintersteel.com/files/ShanaArticles/multiverse.pdf

2. What persuades Weinberg that dark matter is fine tuned?

He said that theoretically derived values for the vaccum energy are much larger than observed ones. I understand that the non-measured contributions must be equally impressive and comparable in magnitude in order to cancel the predicted excess and leave us with the tiny observed value.

However that difference can not be explained by contributions from the field energy at shorter wave length. You'd expect that calculating at smaller lengths, for the same field, would yield a more accurate answer. Not come up with a an answer of similar magnitude but negative value sufficient to "cancel" out your first prediction.

What exactly is cancelling the theoretical values?

79. Children Are Naturally Prone To Be Empathic And Moral

Comment #209577 by Vinelectric on July 12, 2008 at 4:51 pm

However, when the children saw animations of someone intentionally hurt,..

Whoever granted this study the ethical approval needs more training in research ethics.

80. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #209392 by Vinelectric on July 12, 2008 at 5:34 am

Fanusi,mordacious, Goldy, Bonzai and epeeist.

On the Capitalism vs Socialism discussion.

The way I see it, what makes life in first world countries so attractive (especially to immigrants from the Middle East) is because they have the wealth to fund social security establishments. Ask any random British person how the NHS has transformed the lives of the working class in the last 60 years. The system is costly and far from perfect but is still financially sustainable and any party that threatens to abandon it knows that it would be committing political suicide.

81. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #209178 by Vinelectric on July 11, 2008 at 6:45 pm

Fanusi Khiyal

I hope that "Averroes really belongs to us" was a joke.

I'm sure that one day your knoweldge will match your rhetoric but for the time being I've decided it's wiser to let the wave of trolls ebb away before we resume our quarrels (at full throttle, that is).

Till then let me tell you that we are where we are today because of a collective human effort. Only ignorance and arrogance can explain why anyone would want to think otherwise. It is true that Western civilisation has overtaken all the others and leapt millenia ahead, much to the benefit of everyone. However, belittling the contribution of any scholar, whether they be Arab or not, to the establishment of the scientific base that allowed the subsequent European exponential upstroke to happen is dishonest to say the least.

Just log on to Britannica and in ten minutes you'll learn that the Andaleusian scholars wern't content with just transmission (as if that is something to be condemned) but have made significant advancements in mathematics (decimal numeration, algebra), navigation systems and even anticipated Johannes Kepler in modelling planetary orbits.

Don't take my word for it, start with these links but do not let any stretch of imagination tell you that that part of the world played a petty role in helping this species pull itself by the bootstrap and deliver itself from the woes of disabling ignorance.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/14885/algebra

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/367982/Maslama-al-Majriti

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/557573/Spain/70380/Culture-of-Muslim-Spain#ref=ref587430

82. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #208905 by Vinelectric on July 11, 2008 at 11:16 am

Joe Morreale

TRUTH DOES INDEED HURT, AND BADLY TOO!

Ouch!

83. An Irishman's Diary

Comment #208869 by Vinelectric on July 11, 2008 at 10:28 am

snoov

What noble meaning?

84. An Irishman's Diary

Comment #208864 by Vinelectric on July 11, 2008 at 10:24 am

What should we say instead, "address ourselves to the issue"? (as in direct our attention to the issue).

I'm confident that that meaning of the word "address" will make its way to the dictionaries sooner than expressions such as "return back" and "ain't nothing" will.

85. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #208591 by Vinelectric on July 11, 2008 at 4:04 am

clearmind

You're certainly not doing your religion any favour so I suggest you leave for the sake of your own kind. Take this embarrassing forgery as an example, are you trying to persuade us that Aa'isha was 18 when she married the prophet? (..So Aisha was born in 605.
She got married in 623 with the prophet. )

Have you no never heard of these famous hadiths?

Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236:

Narrated Hisham's father:

Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.


Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.


Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3311:

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.

Bukhari and Muslim, can't get more authentic than that. Now the stereotype of the ignorant, stupid and dishonest Muslim is forever imprinted in the conscience of every guest on this forum.

You don't happen to be an undercover of Jihadwatch, or are you? ;-).

86. Bisexual Species: Unorthodox Sex in the Animal Kingdom

Comment #208573 by Vinelectric on July 11, 2008 at 3:34 am

Not sure I'll be quoting this article in my occasional debates with religious folk.

I could be missing something very important here: if animals mostly engage in homosexual activity under certain stressful situations (captivity, social tensions...etc) then that makes the behaviour "abnormal", doesn't it?

Human beings seem unique as some do have a true "homosexual identity". Not in response to stress or what have you.

87. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #207409 by Vinelectric on July 9, 2008 at 5:25 pm

BillySands

One more usefull link on therapeutic retroviridae.

http://www.oncolyticsbiotech.com/

88. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #207406 by Vinelectric on July 9, 2008 at 5:19 pm

BillySands

Creotards, please take note of ERVs

Great presentation.

Here is how we've made use of retroviruses to deliberately infect cancer patients and selectively kill neoplastic cells or make them more susceptible to adjuvant radiotherapy. We're carrying Phase II trials in the UK and, I believe, in Canada.


http://www.cancerhelp.org.uk/trials/trials/trial.asp?=&trialno=10830

Calilasseia

Thanks for the link. What happens in the US should concern everyone.

89. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #207398 by Vinelectric on July 9, 2008 at 4:46 pm

Bonzai

The same effect can be seen back home with conservative religious groups being unable to cope with the slowly modernising majority. They protest that society has forsaken its (religious) roots and the frustration begets extremism.

Unfortunately, understanding how/why such movements emerge, does not make it any easier on us to figure out how to keep them in check. That psychological nostalgia effect will always persist to some extent in societies which attempt to escape from traditionally inflexible social systems such as those of early Islam.

90. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #207387 by Vinelectric on July 9, 2008 at 3:49 pm

Steve Zara

For some reason medicine is a different matter, and all kinds of craziness turns up.

Like you said, (para-phrasing) if it works then it probably is true.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1032916/Pensioner-goes-knife--using-self-hypnosis-pain-relief.html

91. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #207385 by Vinelectric on July 9, 2008 at 3:43 pm

Gregg Townsnend

That pool of fundamentalism, borne in the harsh deserts of the Middle East, constantly feeds the immigrant populations in Europe and North America. A side effect of strong cohesive family bonds with those "left behind".

92. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #207379 by Vinelectric on July 9, 2008 at 3:37 pm

al-rawandi

b-yedin wa inuna al-Mawsa'un

Minor adjustment: b-aydin wa inna la-moosi'un

Have a look at this (in Arabic):

http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?l=arb&taf=TABARY&nType=1&nSora=51&nAya=47

moosi'un is derived from "si'ah" (seen-ayin-closed teh). From the phrse "zu si'ah" meaning "capable". So it literally means: we have the capability (of doing so).

93. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #207373 by Vinelectric on July 9, 2008 at 3:31 pm

Al

Yes and Yes. I'm having a memory block right now but can't think of a word for "expand" different from the word we use for "widen".

Everytime I struggle with a Hebrew word, even though I'm a native Semitic language speaker, I feel embarrased that some native English speakers like yourself seem to have an effortless command of a language as alien to them as Arabic. You're a "Pentium 10" as we sometimes say.

94. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #207363 by Vinelectric on July 9, 2008 at 3:16 pm

Gregg Townsend

A combination of ignorance, mis-trust in whatever is "Western" and harsh living conditions (true for most of the Middle East).

That keeps the pool of backwardness and superstition alive. Imagine saying to the heat-struck, financially deprived average Sudanese that you want them to hear what a Western Sceintist's criticism of a book that promises them eternal bliss in the after life.

They'd rather play deaf than undermine the only worldview they've known since early childhood.

95. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #207354 by Vinelectric on July 9, 2008 at 3:02 pm

al-rawandi

The language and sentence structure of such books makes them impenetrable to the layity. A lot of what ordinary Muslims know about the Quran is hearsay.

One of my favourite examples is 51:47. Here the phrase "wa inna la-musi'oon" sounds like "and verily we are expanding it. Muslims will tell you that the verse means: And the skies, we have built with might and indeed we are (we will be) expanding them.

If you actually look up the tafseer you'll notice that the phrase actually means "and indeed we are capable" not "we are expanding it". Even for a fluent speaker of modern standard Arabic the difference is subtle. If the author of the verse meant to say "expanding" he/she should have used "mu-wassi'oon" not "musi'oon".

I wonder what ertu has to say about this.

96. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #207342 by Vinelectric on July 9, 2008 at 2:38 pm

ertu

Qu'ran 21:30 CREATOR OF BIG BANG

"Do not the unbelievers see how the heavens and the earth were joined together, before We cloved them assunder? We made every living thing out of water. WILL THEY THEN NOT BELIEVE?"

There was no "Heaven" and "Earth" at the Big Bang. Ibn Abbas gives a different meaning to the words "ratqq" and "fatqq". Look up Ibn Katheer, according to him Ibn Abbas interprets this as "barren/dry" and "made fertile/wet" respectively.

Furthermore, why does the Qur'aan speak of seven heavens? Why does the next verse claim that mountains prevent earthquakes? (Ibn Katheer, Al Tabari)

Can you not see that the author of the Qur'aan doesn't really know what they're talking about?

97. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #206614 by Vinelectric on July 8, 2008 at 2:46 pm

qomak

I think you have every reason to ask: "and so what, it's all bollocks". It's just that I have an interest in the language and really do care to figure out what the man was talking about. Out of mere interest.

98. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #206596 by Vinelectric on July 8, 2008 at 2:10 pm

al-rawandi

Mohammad was really pushing his luck with this story. Anyways, where's Fanusi when you need him? An uncompromising and relentless attitude is the only possible antidote to the surge in the troll activity on this site. (No disrespect intended, for a change !)

99. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #206595 by Vinelectric on July 8, 2008 at 2:02 pm

Paula Kirby

I have a theory (theory as in feeling, not theory as in evolution!) that the seriously religious have a deep inner NEED to believe their myths

Nietzche had an interesting observation about Nihilism (from the wikipedia entry on the subject:

Nietzsche asserts that this nihilism is a result of valuing "higher", "divine" or "meta-physical" things (such as God), that do not in turn value "base", "human" or "earthly" things.

The believer's will is subverted to the point where he/she sees no other direction in life apart from that prescirbed to them in their texts. I know the feeling exactly. Years of intensive subjection to texts that threaten torture in the grave, a certain degree of exposure to Hell fire...etc can paralyse your intellect. Whatever's left of it is invested into affirming the only worldview you've known in life. Yo feel that, for better or worse, if you lose it your whole world would collapse around you and you wouldn't know what to do with yourself.

Yes I do agree there is a "need" to believe the myth but that in itself may result from wishfull belief in a blissfull afterlife (e.g the more lenient forms of Christianity) or deep and insufferable terror as in the case of Islam.

100. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #206570 by Vinelectric on July 8, 2008 at 1:27 pm

qomack and al-rawandi (may find this interesting).


On Zul-Qarnain's useless story. For the sake of intellectual honesty (you can check al Tubrusi's interpretation) that verse was mis-tranlated by Yusuf Ali.

Maghrib Ash-Shams has several meanings:
1. Literal: the setting place of the sun

or

2. Allegorical: Mthe westernmost point in the land (reached by Zul-Qarnain)

or

3. as Al Tubrusi (d 1153 AD) describes in Al Bayan Fi Tafseer Al Quran: the westernmost land inhabited by human beings.

Same for Mashriq Ash-Shams

No one can be sure which meaning Mohammad intended but it could equally be any of the above.