51. Unlike Others, U.S. Defends Freedom to Offend in Speech

Comment #192126 by FightingFalcon on June 12, 2008 at 1:27 pm

The Holocaust happened. Inciting people to believe other than the historical truth is illegal because it incites people to act on lies.

But that's absolutely ridiculous! Freedom of speech says nothing about you having to say correct or proper speech.

It's my right as an American to go to any street corner and say that the Holocaust was a lie invented by Jews. Or that World War II never happened. Or that we never landed on the Moon...

All of those ideas may be stupid but I'm allowed to say them. I've never understood anti-Holocaust laws or laws that ban Nazi regalia/Mein Kempf. You don't learn from history by trying to white wash it and pretend like it never happened.

52. Godless

Comment #192115 by FightingFalcon on June 12, 2008 at 1:13 pm

P.S. "..."In God We Trust," on the currency in 1907,.." - it was 1957.

I think the article was talking about how some people tried putting "In God We Trust" on our currency back in 1907 but that President TR stopped them.

53. Godless

Comment #192110 by FightingFalcon on June 12, 2008 at 1:09 pm

Reply to Comment #6....

I'm pretty tired of seeing that video on here. How many people are going to make up their mind on Obama based on a 2 MINUTE video?!

I thought Atheists were all about collecting as much data as possible and then making an educated decision based on what the evidence seems to favor?

One speech by Obama does not make him a secularist. Especially when there are plenty of other speeches that show his sympathy for the oft-mentioned "Judeo-Christian roots of America".

54. Intelligent people 'less likely to believe in God'

Comment #192107 by FightingFalcon on June 12, 2008 at 1:00 pm

If you're caught early enough, then surely your faith will be just as strong?

I was caught at a young age and became extremely devout. However, I would like to think that I'm a fairly smart individual and that my studying of religions caused me to doubt the validity of 2000 year old texts, burning bushes, virgin births, etc. Rather than seeing Christianity as unique, I saw it as one of many belief systems invented by humans to explain what we couldn't (as of yet) understand.

I have found GENERALLY that the more religious a society is, the less educated it is. This is well documented throughout history though and should be no surprise to anyone. Why did Imperial Spain contribute nothing to the sciences while Protestant Prussia and the Reformed Netherlands (both relatively open and tolerant societies) make tremendous advancements in science and math?

It should be no shock to anyone that having a closed mind that is brought about largely by religion should leave you less educated. This is common sense yet very hard for Theists to accept.

The less you study, the less intelligent you are. Period.

55. Godless

Comment #192087 by FightingFalcon on June 12, 2008 at 12:39 pm

Obama has been the more overtly God-centric candidate in this campaign,

[sarcasm]

Wait....isn't McCain the psychotic Christian evangelical in this race?

[/sarcasm]

56. Unlike Others, U.S. Defends Freedom to Offend in Speech

Comment #192083 by FightingFalcon on June 12, 2008 at 12:34 pm

In case the article didn't communicate this: You can say mean and hateful things, you just can't incite hatred. We're just as free to swear, tell each other off and so on.

Enjoy your ability to say mean and hateful things for the near future until the Human Rights Tribunal hands down its verdict. With a 100% conviction rate, you can be guaranteed that your RIGHT to publicly criticize religion will soon be coming to an end.

57. Unlike Others, U.S. Defends Freedom to Offend in Speech

Comment #192075 by FightingFalcon on June 12, 2008 at 12:26 pm

I'm not a fan of the whole of the Bill of Rights

I don't want to get off on a side bar here but I'm honestly curious to hear why anyone would object to the Bill of Rights. What Amendments in particular do you not like and why?

58. Unlike Others, U.S. Defends Freedom to Offend in Speech

Comment #192068 by FightingFalcon on June 12, 2008 at 12:21 pm

And people wonder why I love America so much...

You'll take our freedom of speech only over our dead bodies!

59. New Online Survey

Comment #191622 by FightingFalcon on June 11, 2008 at 10:25 am

It listed "Air Force" as a race.

Am I supposed to pick that? I have no idea what to answer now...

60. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #191620 by FightingFalcon on June 11, 2008 at 10:22 am

Your point about limited resources and the fight with AQ is valid. It is just a pity that the atrocities happening in Zimbabwe don't get the same publicity worldwide, and the problem nipped in the bud before it turns into another Rwanda

It's regrettable to be sure and we should do anything we can (short of force) to get Mugabe out of office since it is clearly the will of the people that he be voted out. However, that effort should be co-ordinated through the African Union and South Africa in particular. This is not a fight that I'd like to see us spend any significant amount of money or manpower on when we have much more pressing issues in the world.

Now, some would consider this hypocritical (although I'm not suggesting that you are saying this) but it's simply prioritizing. A lot of people see America as this great defender of freedom and that it's our job to oppose tyrannical dictators and uphold human rights but we simply cannot do it all at once. I am a firm believer in exporting the American values of peace, free trade, democracy and human rights (at least, we used to believe in these things) but only by positive example. Sometimes military force obviously is necessary but it should never be initiated without provocation. Human rights abuses in Sudan, Zimbabwe et al are definitely unfortunate but we have no business getting involved. Military force rarely solves ethnic hatreds anyway and it simply puts a lid on a time bomb that will explode as soon as you remove your military forces. Or, as in the case of Serbia, you're stuck with a military presence for the foreseeable future.

61. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #191464 by FightingFalcon on June 11, 2008 at 2:50 am

He also banned drinking alcohol on the tube and buses - not so popular.

I heard about this law change recently.

I couldn't believe that drinking was ever legal on the tube! =)

62. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #191448 by FightingFalcon on June 11, 2008 at 1:47 am

I'm thus suggesting the GWOT is a bit selective. Surely pressure could be put on the right people in South Africa to stop Mugabe and co terrorizing his own people, or else

Of course the GWOT is selective. We don't have the time, money or manpower to tackle all terrorist organizations or all tyrannical dictators. Especially since we never declared war on the latter.

We declared war on worldwide terrorism but we were attacked by AQ. They are the primary threat to American interests in the world. Iran isn't a threat in and of themselves as much as they are a threat because they could make a nuclear weapon and give it to AQ. Our #1 top priority should be the destruction of AQ and then move on to other terrorist organizations and/or rogue states.

As for putting pressue on Zimbabwe - everyone knows that nothing is possible without South Africa. They are by far the most powerful country economically and militarily in Africa. Any sort of pressure (economic, political, diplomatic or otherwise) has absolutely no chance without their help. I'm afraid that, in this case, there is just nothing that we can do. We have other problems to worry about right now.

If the Constitution guarantees a secular state

It doesn't. What it guarantees is a law against the establishment of an official religion. The so-called separation of church and state appeared in a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to (I believe) John Adams. Unfortunately for all of us, letters written by Thomas Jefferson are not law. Theists may be annoying but they're right when they claim that separation of church and state is not US law.

Freedom of religion means exactly that a secular society where the right of citizens not to be bothered by religion or to be discriminated against because of it is paramount.

What freedom of religion means is that every American has the right to worship as they see fit without government interference.

No where in the Declaration, Constitution or US law is a secular society guaranteed. If that were the case, all aspects of religion in society (including Chaplains in the military/government) would have to go. This is something that even I am opposed to.

63. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #191255 by FightingFalcon on June 10, 2008 at 1:16 pm

He's basically in the pocket of the generals now. Should the miracle happen, and Tsvangirai gert elected, there will be a coup before you know it.

Wasn't Tsvangirai just arrested? I don't see a favorable outcome in that country until Mugabe dies. The guy is 82 (I believe) already - hopefully not too much longer.

edit: Just read that Tsvangirai was released the same day that he got arrested.

Still, I would bet my life savings on Mugabe getting re-"elected" in the runoff.

64. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #191245 by FightingFalcon on June 10, 2008 at 1:06 pm

My point is this, it is close to Europe, maybe it is about time that Europe started shouldering the burden for its own borders and defense. I am getting pretty sick of the sissies in Europe sitting around guzzling tea, while someone else is responsible for fixing everything. They just expect Americans to go and shed blood while the Europeans shake their limp wrists at "Imperialism".

I used to use these same exact arguments, until I realized just how much Europe actually is helping. Do you know how much France (of all countries) is helping OEF-TS? Did you know that they have the largest contingent of troops in Africa aiding the GWOT? Given their Imperialistic past in Africa, our African GWOT goals would not be possible without their assistance, because of the roots that they have in so many of these countries. Europe may not be getting the headlines because of opposition to Iraq/Afghanistan but victory in the GWOT will not be possible without our European allies.

In addition, European countries have a comparative advantage in soft power over America. European countries spend far greater amounts of money on reconstructive efforts than we do (outside of Iraq) and they have a much better track record at rehabilitating formerly war torn countries. Just look at what the carrot of EU membership does to the internal politics of Eastern European nations. 10 years ago the Balkans was tearing itself apart and now, other than Serbia, it is a tremendous achievement for the EU.

Europeans are doing their fair share in the fight against terrorism, NBC proliferation and democracy promotion. We have an advantage in hard power and that's why we get the headlines with troop numbers in Iraq and Afghanistan. But the fight against terrorism is so much more than those two countries alone and without Europe, we would be in very bad shape.

Don't pay attention to the European citizens who protest against our actions in other countries. Look at the governments and the armed forces, who support us and are desperate to work with us. Just today I found out that the French (again, of all countries) are dying to train with us. I almost fell off my chair...

There are a lot more things going on behind the scenes that don't get picked up by the media because, again, they don't know about them or they aren't sexy enough to sell.

65. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #191240 by FightingFalcon on June 10, 2008 at 12:59 pm

You brought up GWOT and Africa.. The shit happening in Zimbabwe is absolutely disgusting, yet nothing is done about it, or has been done for the past 10 years after that shit Mugabe overstayed his welcome on this planet.

See, here is where I disagree. The nations that I'm talking about are GWOT partners and they've agreed to voluntarily let us into the country. We (meaning my unit alone) aren't forcing our way in - we really aren't that big/powerful enough to do that. Most countries are more than glad to help us (or really be helped by us) because they are facing insurgents of some kind, whether they are rebels, Islamic militants, Al-Queda, etc.

Zimbabwe is a purely domestic affair. We have no interests in that country and it would take military force to open that country up to us. If Zimbabwe's government were threatened by AQ, then we may change our stance a bit. But as of right now, they are not a threat to us or our interests and they are not willing to host US troops. I have absolutely no interest in getting involved there.

66. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #191236 by FightingFalcon on June 10, 2008 at 12:46 pm

I understand there are plenty of people who want to train with us, there is nothing wrong with that. How does a military base in Greenland help that? This is a war on terror, or polar bears?

Having never been stationed in Thule, I have no idea what goes on there. I would assume scientific research of some kind but I'm not sure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule_Air_Base

There ya go. Wikipedia said it used to be a research center and is now critical to our early warning ICBM detection system.

Of course I get it, I understand what is happening in places like Chad and Mauritania, and Nigeria, Somalia, and many other places. I understand we can help these people. What does Ramstein have to do with that. Why don't we just fly direct? Does German sovereignty mean nothing to America, or to Germans for that matter?

Honestly Al, you really have no idea what you're talking about here. Please stick to topics that you know a lot more about.

The reasons for why we can't fly directly into these countries are numerous. Take your pick:

1) Pre-positioned forces in Europe allow us to respond to crises much quicker. My unit has responded to presidential-ordered evacuations within hours of notification. Not days.

2) Runway capabilities. Many runways in Africa cannot handle a C-5 so we use Ramstein as a major port to route our supplies and people through and then put them on smaller planes that we can use. These planes are too small and cost inefficient to make the long trans-Atlantic flight.

3) Tentative nature with many foreign countries. Working diplomatic clearances is an arduous and constantly changing process. One day we're cleared hot and the next day we're denied. Being already in Europe doesn't make this a big deal because its a short flight to most other locations in Europe and Africa.

4) Personal relationships with host nations. I can't describe how important it is to have a personal face-to-face relationship with these countries.

5) The amount of money/time/effort that we save by already being in place cannot be measured. We don't save any money by moving our forces back home while still trying to maintain the same posture in Europe and Africa. We lose money and time while risking our ability to respond to any crisis, any where at any time.

I could go on Al, but I won't. Honestly, leave this one up to the professionals. I literally do this for a living, working Logistics for Special Operations.

67. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #191228 by FightingFalcon on June 10, 2008 at 12:25 pm

I am not convinced. There are plenty of countries that don't have countless overseas bases, that are economic and world powers, and are plenty safe. It's an industry. The Air Force recently made a play for 300 F-22's, Gates told them to fuck off and they are getting 180. The Air Force desperately wants to fight MiG's with their cool new toys, no idea what the fuck is really going on. We need predator drones, not F-22's.

I'm sure those predator drones will come in handy when/if we should come into conflict with a major world power. The F-15 has already been matched by Russia, France, the UK, China, India, Brazil and Argentina. I don't want to be on the same playing field as other countries. I want to be so far ahead of them that they don't even think about attacking us. I'd rather deter the enemy through incredible strength than be moderately stronger than them and fight a costly war to prove it.

The desert? What the fuck are we doing in the desert anyway?

Have you ever heard of the GWOT? Do you have any idea how involved we are in that mission? Do you have a clue as to how pivotal the struggle is in Africa right now?

And you will have to forgive me if I am skeptical when an employee of the US government says "just trust me".

I really wish you could come to my unit just for one day. Working where I do has greatly increased my appreciation for the GWOT and just how involved it is.

Please read about OEF-TS and try to understand just how important Africa is to the security of this country. While I certainly believe in non-intervention, I absolutely reject isolationism. If there are countries out there who are desperate to train with us (and again *trust me* there are plenty) to combat against terrorism, then we have every obligation to help them.

68. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #191221 by FightingFalcon on June 10, 2008 at 12:09 pm

Uhhh we have over 700 overseas military bases, most do next to dick to keep me safe. How the fuck is the Iraq invasion keeping me safe? We are there, hoping that the Iraqis will use oil to pay us back for this whole shit show. We have wasted BILLIONS on a war that didn't make me any safer, at all. How does an air force base at Ramstein help me? It doesn't. Okinawa? It doesn't it is a huge waste of money. Dwight D. Eisenhower said "beware the military industrial complex", I suggest you heed his advice.

You don't know what these bases do for you because you aren't in the military and the media really couldn't care less about what we do (or doesn't know about it) outside of Iraq and Afghanistan. Trust me, there are reasons for our international bases. If there wasn't a reason for them, we'd close them down, as we've done with many bases in Germany.

What does Ramstein do for you? Well, being the largest Aerial Port in the world, it's the central hub for moving anything to the desert. Nothing goes to the desert without going through Ramstein first so I would say that it does a lot. You do realize that we're not just fighting a war, right? The military has a lot more on it's plate than just Iraq and Afghanistan. Again, just take my word on this one.

As for tax cuts for the wealthy? I can asure you that every cent of a tax cut that goes to the underclass gets spent into the working economy, this then increases corporate profits, which means they can spend more on business development and expansion.

I'm sorry, I just don't buy the "trickle up" theory at all. When you want to create economic growth, you target the people who are directly responsible for it. Not people that will indirectly help out a random sampling of companies.

If you hate welfare, how about hating the welfare handed out to US corporations.

Who said I approved of corporate welfare?

69. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #191217 by FightingFalcon on June 10, 2008 at 11:56 am

I work at a Mutual fund, people are banking their golden years on corporate profit. In fact a cap gains tax increase will hit the middle class the hardest. It is just liberal sloganeering:

My favorite part of this entire election season so far has been Obama's performance on Capital Gains Taxes. Credit goes to Charlie Gibson from ABC who pointed out to Obama that increased Capital Gains Taxes would mean LESS government revenue than right now. When pressed on the issue, Obama basically admitted that he didn't care because the system needs to be "more fair". It didn't matter that the government would get less money - rich people just HAD to pay more taxes!

The next day someone must have gotten hold of Obama and given him some Capitalism 101 because he came out later and said something along the lines of "Well, of course we must adopt a plan that increases government revenue while being more fair to all Americans." News flash: If you wanted a system that is more fair and increases government revenue, try cutting Capital Gains Taxes...

That man annoys the living shit out of me.

70. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #191213 by FightingFalcon on June 10, 2008 at 11:51 am

Republicans get elected, increase stupid spending (defense, and other wasteful programs) while cutting taxes for the wealthy, thus decreasing government income. This drives us into debt.

Defense is a stupid and wasteful program? Have you ever stopped to think about what allows you to sleep soundly at night?

I really am surprised to hear you jump on the "tax cuts for the wealthy" bullshit line of the Democrats. I honestly thought you were smarter than that.

The tax cuts were aimed to both lower the tax burden on Americans but also to spur economic growth. You don't increase economic growth and employ more Americans by cutting taxes on the poor. You do that by cutting taxes on the rich, who actually employ people. Tax cuts for the lower class do absolutely nothing for us and while I do favor tax cuts in general, I really support tax cuts where they would do the most good for the economy.

Democrats get elected, balance the budget

Really? Democrats balanced the budget? I could have sworn it was a Republican Congress that balanced the budget.

Democrats have already broken their PAYGO promises in less than one year of control in Congress. These are the absolute last people I would ever trust to balance the budget.

Despite my libertarian views, the Republicans really are the biggest scoundrels ever. Total dipshits, evil liars.

I have no love for Republicans but I absolutely loathe Democrats. They can take their "collective society" bullshit schemes and go straight to Hell.

71. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #191211 by FightingFalcon on June 10, 2008 at 11:45 am

Can anyone explain to me why Obama wants to introduce a "windfall profits" tax on the oil companies to fund his energy handout of $100.00 to every citizen when the obscene profits the oil companies are raking in only represent on average a 4% return on Capital?

You, my friend, are trying to be rational at a time that American politics does not allow it.

Obama's idiotic "windfall profits" tax will change nothing because oil companies will do whatever it takes to maintain their relatively modest profit margin of 8-9%. A tax on oil companies will be passed DIRECTLY onto the consumer. If you want higher gas prices, vote for Obama.

I've spent too much time and energy defending "Big Oil" and the free market in the face of such enormous stupidity. I'm getting pretty tired explaining basic economics to people. Neil Boortz, an American libertarian, had a good piece on this today:

http://boortz.com/nuze/index.html

First article there.

edit: I especially love how someone finally pointed out how much retirement money (Mutual Funds, retirement plans, pensions, etc.) is invested in major companies like Exxon Mobile. It should be no surprise why the police unions recently came out in defense of Exxon Mobile...

72. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #191195 by FightingFalcon on June 10, 2008 at 11:08 am

Notice his mantra: tax cuts and war (= continue creating the biggest deficit in mankind; what he does not state is the republican dream to use this to starve the beast and kill all social programs.)

I'm sorry - that entire post really has to the most incoherent rambling that I've ever read. Honestly, I have no idea how you reached your conclusions or where your premises came from.

If the Republican dream is to use the "starve the beast" tactic, then why has social spending increased under a Republican administration more than it did during a Democratic one? Why increase the very thing that you're trying to get rid of? I don't think people are *that* dumb to miss a tactic like that.

I can't even address any other points because they border on lunacy.

73. The 14-year-old Afghan suicide bomber

Comment #191159 by FightingFalcon on June 10, 2008 at 9:55 am

Am I right that given the information the kid has, our soldiers over there could go find these two Mullah jackasses, gut them like pigs, and disband the school? What have we been doing over there for the past 7 years if this is still going on? Does it not make sense, in the interest of saving lives, to go to the source?

I think that defeats our whole purpose for being there.

It may be time for those of us in the West to accept the fact that democracy and Islam simply don't go together. Just look at what has happened in the Gaza Strip, Iraq and Afghanistan. The Gaza Strip voted in terrorists, Iraq acknowledged a state religion and Afghanistan has all but brought back Sharia law. All of this was done democratically, more or less.

If these people voluntarily choose to live in the 7th Century, there isn't much we can do about it. This is the price you pay for imposing democracy on a society that isn't ready for it.

74. Logical Proof of the Existence of a Divine Creator, Why Atheism is Not Logically Sound

Comment #191148 by FightingFalcon on June 10, 2008 at 9:43 am

I read for about a minute before wanting to throw my laptop across the room.

What a piece of shit.

75. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #191099 by FightingFalcon on June 10, 2008 at 8:05 am

They don't list his vote on stem cell research.

He voted in favor of embryonic steam cell research.

I just finished reading an Editorial in the Wall Street Journal that I felt was fitting to this thread:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121305280815658925.html?mod=todays_columnists

"Secularists are wrong when they ask believers to leave their religion at the door before entering into the public square. Frederick Douglass, Abraham Lincoln, William Jennings Bryan, Dorothy Day, Martin Luther King �quot; indeed, the majority of great reformers in American history �quot; were not only motivated by faith but repeatedly used religious language to argue for their cause. To say that men and women should not inject their 'personal morality' into public policy debates is a practical absurdity. Our law is by definition a codification of morality, much of it grounded in the Judeo-Christian tradition."

- Barack Obama

Maybe people shouldn't make their minds up after a 2-minute clip from a guy who constantly changes his mind.

76. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #190634 by FightingFalcon on June 9, 2008 at 10:00 am

I wish I could elaborate, but I can't.

Hehe - I love not being able to tell people where the gov't sends me for work =)

77. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #190605 by FightingFalcon on June 9, 2008 at 9:35 am

I am way way too young to run for the big office. I am looking into jobs with various government agencies that may be interested in a person with my "skill set".

When/if you do decide to run, please remember me.

I'll be more than happy to shrink the size of government and get our economic policy back to sanity =)

78. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #190501 by FightingFalcon on June 9, 2008 at 7:57 am

In the US, all politicians pay lip-service to it, but I wonder how many really believe in it?

How many politicians take their Oaths to the Constitution seriously? How many Americans are actually convinced that the purpose of government is to enhance their lives rather than defend the Constitution?

By the way, oustanding avatar. Not too many people like him around anymore.

79. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #190492 by FightingFalcon on June 9, 2008 at 7:42 am

My greatest fear is that he is either a power hungry hypocrite, or a total and complete idiot.

I think it's the latter but it has more to do with inexperience than idiocy.

The guy has two years in the Senate and prior to that he was in the Illinois state senate. Not exactly the greatest credentials to run on.

This is his first major campaign (he went basically unchallenged for his Senate seat) and he's finally being subjected to some form of media scrutiny. He can't get away with making idiotic comments anymore and so he attempts damage control but is awful at it.

I completely forgot about about his comments at AIPAC. His comments there and then the damage control he attempted the next day were hilarious. The man is a walking gaffe machine. At least with President Bush his gaffe's (put food on your family) are funny and don't harm anyone. Obama's gaffes make enemies of entire countries.

80. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #190486 by FightingFalcon on June 9, 2008 at 7:33 am

Hey, its your chad to hang mate, not mine. I'm just slightly worried that we may soon have a world leader, who foreign policy skills extend to signing:

"Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb bomb Iran".

Scary.

As opposed to one who said that he'll invade/bomb Pakistan if they don't give us permission to hunt terrorists in their own country?

Or the one who said that Iran was a tiny threat and then literally the NEXT DAY said that Iran was the greatest threat since the Soviet Union?

The man has no damn idea what he's talking about.

81. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #190478 by FightingFalcon on June 9, 2008 at 7:14 am

Is it just me, or are the atheists so fucking liberal leaning, that they are screwing themselves into whichever idiotic Dem candidate happens to make their way through the fight.

What I've seen a lot of on this site are Atheists who refuse to put things into perspective. I literally watched as people cried the end of the American school system because one school board president in Texas changed English standards on his own. The hysteria on this site is out of control.

That's why I'm not surprised to see so many single-issues voters here. How many people commented here that, after watching a 2 minute video of Obama, they suddenly have hope for America? Nevermind Obama's foreign and domestic policy stances. Nevermind how his stances on trade and the military may affect their countries (assuming that they aren't American).

All some posters care about is that Obama is more secular than McCain and will therefore make a great president.

I used to think that Atheists were more intelligent than Theists because they weren't blinded by religious fervor. Now I'm not so sure.

82. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #190474 by FightingFalcon on June 9, 2008 at 7:03 am

You're not answering my question. You're a historian -- I'm interested in HOW you think the FF's personal, metaphysical beliefs has relevance today.

I've already answered this. I said I care because I don't like people changing history to push a political agenda. Me personally? It doesn't affect me what the Founding Fathers believed religiously. It doesn't change their political views or what they wrote in the Constitution. However, there are lobbying/interest groups who try very hard to distort history and tell us that the Founding Fathers were something that they weren't. If you don't believe that this isn't happening right now then you clearly blind.

Anyone who thinks that NAFTA has been good for the ordinary working people of the US and Canada is either seriously deluded or is a raging right-wing Republican:
http://www.chomsky.info/articles/199303--.htm

You cite Chomsky as evidence of free trade being evil?

Gee, why don't I just cite Hitler as proof of Jews being sub-humans?

Let's hope for everyone's sake that Obama gets elected. I can't face another four years of another rambling incoherent American president. Please America, spare us (the rest of the world) from these nin cum poops that can't string a sentence together.

I'd rather have a "rambling incoherent" American president than one who doesn't even understand what Capital Gains Taxes are. Or one who calls Iran a "tiny" threat and then the next day calls it the greatest threat since the Soviet Union.

Talk about an empty suit. I've never seen people get so excited over absolutely meaningless rhetoric before.

83. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #190468 by FightingFalcon on June 9, 2008 at 6:57 am

Regarding the USA situation, the actor Alec Baldwin claimed that the GOP had been hijacked by fundies:

Quote: "To me, the Republican Party is the real great tragedy of the last 25 years because there are lot of good and decent people and a lot of good political points [that have] come from the Republican Party in the post-war period, but it has been hijacked by these fundamentalist wackos," Baldwin said

Politics is seldom a completely black and white business.

The GOP certainly has been hijacked, but not just by Christian evangelicals. Look at the Republican Party of the mid to late 90s (the one that swept Congress) and compare it to the one today. The "old" Republican Party believed in peace, freedom, free trade, low taxes and small government. The new Republican Party is nothing like this - the size of government has increased at an alarming rate under a supposedly "conservative" president. The Republicans under Bill Clinton were opposed to intervention in Iraq, Somalia, Serbia, Bosnia, etc. The Republican Party is the traditional party of non-intervention while Democrats have traditionally been a more hawkish party. This is hard for many current Americans (and Europeans) to accept but it is the case. Democrats got us involved in WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam and a host of insurgencies. Only recently did they switch their traditional stances.

84. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #190415 by FightingFalcon on June 9, 2008 at 3:59 am

I think it's silly Americans care so much about the views of the founders of there nation. My nation, the UK, was formed by a stupid union based on stupid monarchy in trying to reconcile the monarchs territories into one state, a completely stupid premise for founding a nation, but I think it's important what the UK's like now and I think Americans should stop worrying themselves about what the founding fathers thought, except in a purely historical sense and not in a political sense like it is often used. Rather than asking "what did the founding fathers create this nation to be like?" (as if they all agreed on that!) you should ask "what do we want the US to be like now".

Perhaps it's because your country was founded upon such "stupid" principles that you can't look to it for inspiration.

The American Experiment was such a unique and far-sighted achievement that we Americans constantly look at our beginnings to see what type of model country we should be. America hasn't seen a group of such highly gifted and intelligent men as our Founding Fathers since 1789. It's only natural to look to them for inspiration given our current crop of "leaders"...

85. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #190412 by FightingFalcon on June 9, 2008 at 3:57 am

On McCain is it just me or are all republicans fuckwits?

It's just you.

I highly doubt that the tens of millions of Republicans are all "fuckwits".

86. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #190338 by FightingFalcon on June 8, 2008 at 10:23 pm

I'm more than aware of his stance on this. More than most Americans for that matter. I have to assume that the short term consequences will be more than enough to force a reevaluation of the policy.
But in the mean time, my disdain of the rights movement to impose all things Christian is greater than the economic back lash from an obstacle placed in the way of trade between Canada and the US.
Which is the lesser of the two evils?

NAFTA has resulted in trillions of dollars of trade between Canada and the United States, in addition to creating a significant number of jobs and contributed to economic prosperity in both countries. This is just one FTA that Obama wants to get rid of.

And you're more concerned about stupid issues like 10 Commandments in court rooms? Jesus! Talk about single-issue voters...economics are infinitely more important to me than the slight religious differences between Obama and McCain.

What do you care if some, none or all of the "FFs" were atheists? How is this fact (once we know it) relevant to today's discussion?

If you can't see how our Founding Fathers being Atheist would greatly affect today's political discourse then you seriously need to think about the issue some more.

If proof were found of our Founding Fathers either being radical Christians or god-denying Atheists, you don't see an impact here on current politics? Please tell me that you can...

87. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #190232 by FightingFalcon on June 8, 2008 at 3:17 pm

I guess I can't leave just yet....

If you found that one "founding father" was an atheist, would you believe that "...our Founding Fathers were Atheists?" If you found that two "founding fathers" were atheists, would you believe that "...our Founding Fathers were Atheists?" How many atheists would you need to find to believe that "...our Founding Fathers were Atheists?"

The statement "our Founding Fathers were Atheists" implies that every single one of them was. In order for that statement to be true, every single one of them would have to be an Atheist. Sorry to be so nit-picky when it comes to the English language but words do have meaning.

I think this counts as evidence:

What it counts as evidence of is Jefferson's Agnosticism. Not his Atheism. No amount of twisting his words will ever amount to evidence of Jefferson's denial of a supernatural being. He most certainly believed in a Divine Providence of some kind. Done.

As for George Washington:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington_and_religion

He seemed, like many Founding Fathers, to hold a critical view of organized religion while still believing in, at the least, a form of Divine Providence but most likely the Christian god.

Finally, does it really matter what people think the founders wanted or what quotes they mine (mine included)? We have the First Amendment.

You don't understand why it would be important for what the Founders were thinking when they created this country? Our philosophical and intellectual roots as a nation don't matter? How about we just drop history altogether? Why we rebelled against Great Britain surely doesn't matter, does it? Surely that has no bearing on what type of government we should have...

And despite the fact that he has some protectionist attitudes

Some protectionist attitudes? The man wants to unilaterally withdraw from NAFTA and opposes all free trade agreements. Make no mistake about it, Obama will return America to the 1920s and disastrous legislation like the Smoot-Hawley Tariff.

88. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #190220 by FightingFalcon on June 8, 2008 at 2:47 pm

One more post before bed....

There was a good article in this week's Economist about how religious faith will play a role in the American election:

http://www.economist.com/world/na/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11496934

Enjoy.

89. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #190216 by FightingFalcon on June 8, 2008 at 2:40 pm

I was going to add the caveat in 55 that you (Falcon) should be parachuted in to educate Obama about Capital Gains taxes, but then I thought you wouldn't thank me. ;-)

Well, I would have to educate him on a heck of a lot more than just Capital Gains Taxes. Like how raising taxes and increasing government regulation don't spur economic growth. Or how adding a "windfall profits tax" on oil companies won't do anything to lower the price of oil - it will drastically increase gas prices. Or maybe how Americans could make much more money by being allowed to invest in private retirement accounts rather than the less than 1% rate of return that we get in our Social Security checks. Heck, you could earn more at your local bank!

On second thought, I'd probably get too angry trying to explain economics to him. He honestly doesn't have the faintest grasp on Capitalism. The man truly scares me.

Hmmmmmm...does "anyone" include yourself?

As an historian completely dedicated to discovering objective truth, of course it includes me.

Please tell me where I've distorted history to suit my political agenda. I abhor such tactics and would never adopt them myself.

History may be an interpretation of facts but no amount of "interpretation" could ever make me believe that our Founding Fathers were Atheists. Just using that as an example, please don't go off on a tangent...

90. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #190210 by FightingFalcon on June 8, 2008 at 2:28 pm

FightingFalcon: I don't get it: How could anyone find consolation in believing that a 'big guy in the sky' is sitting on his hands, while your rotting in captivity under the 'care' of your guards?

Part of some divine plan, eh?

Sure does require shit for brains to accept that...

I'm not defending it but I can kind of understand it.

Battling against your captors is most importantly a battle of wits. You need to keep your mental sanity otherwise you will break down and succumb to the enemy. Above all, belief in a purpose is the one idea that will get you through captivity (I've had training in this so I can vaguely understand). Belief that your cause is just (freedom, nationalism, etc.) will go a long way but nothing can quite match religious conviction. I can easily see how many POWs would turn to religion in a situation like that. I honestly don't know how I'd react and hope to never be in a position like that.

91. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #190206 by FightingFalcon on June 8, 2008 at 2:23 pm

Well from Barry's and Toads reposted link. It Obama for me! (Damn! How can I achieve American citizenship by October?)

Wanna switch? I'd be happy to contribute to the Tory take-over of Britain =)

92. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #190204 by FightingFalcon on June 8, 2008 at 2:21 pm

My Granddad did. He was a Japanese POW.

And he remained an Atheist? I'm surprised, and encouraged, to hear that.

93. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #190202 by FightingFalcon on June 8, 2008 at 2:17 pm

What the heck? And I had this guy as my favorite to win the election.

I just know I'm gonna get flamed for this but here goes...

McCain spent 6 years in a POW camp. I find it hard to believe that anyone could endure that much torture without some religious beliefs to get them through it. Say what you want about religion, one of its tenets is that it gives people strength to believe in a higher purpose and that an all-powerful being is protecting you.

McCain is less vocal about his religious beliefs than fellow Republicans but I wouldn't be surprised if deep down he is very religious. I just don't see someone spending that much time getting tortured without finding some sort religion. Belief in a just cause can only get you so far...

94. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #190185 by FightingFalcon on June 8, 2008 at 1:51 pm

More like Grover Norquist http://www.comedycentral.com/colbertreport/videos.jhtml?videoId=167408

I recently found out about this guy, but I forget how.

I'm not sure how I feel about him yet but anyone in favor of lower taxes and smaller government can't be all that bad in my book.

95. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #190182 by FightingFalcon on June 8, 2008 at 1:49 pm

Why should you (or anyone, for that matter) "...take offense at either side trying to tell me that the Founding Fathers were either hard-core Christians or Atheists opposed to religion?" What??? Are you related to one of the "founding fathers?" It's just an idea -- for discussion and conversation. Lighten-up!

As an Historian, I've seen way too many examples of people pushing political agendas by distorting History. Indeed, sometimes the only way to pass certain political agendas is to change the way that people view History.

I'm concerned with one thing only in this world - what is true. I don't let anyone get away with distorting History to suit their political agenda.

96. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #190180 by FightingFalcon on June 8, 2008 at 1:46 pm

methinks you should support Bob Barr.

Ugh - the incompetent Libertarian Party. I am a member but I hate admitting it =)

I'll probably end up voting for McCain simply because Obama literally knows nothing about economics. His tap dancing on Capital Gains Taxes alone showed me how little he understands about basic laws of Capitalism.

O well....the joy of being a Libertarian in America...

97. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #190173 by FightingFalcon on June 8, 2008 at 1:36 pm

he's for cival unions - just like mccain- i deserve marriage lol

Yea, I just saw that.

Too bad. I don't see what the big fuss is about. I suppose you can always move to Mass or California but I suppose it still sucks.

98. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #190172 by FightingFalcon on June 8, 2008 at 1:33 pm

Here is Obama on the same topic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPBxl53ZNxQ

Refreshing

I think this should be posted on this site. It's important to see both candidates views, even though I'm British, what happens in America affects the world.

Just wait until we approach November and Obama attempts to crack the Republican stranglehold over the South.

We'll see who believes in separation of church and state then...

99. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #190168 by FightingFalcon on June 8, 2008 at 1:31 pm

as far as gay marriage - obama and mccain are equally against it - so therefore I am not voting for either one!- I'm not a 2nd rate citizen, I don't deserve to be treated as seperate but equal - i feel like when it comes to marriage I should be just as entitled to that WORD as anyone else

McCain voted against the Federal Defense of Marriage Act but he did campaign against gay marriage in Arizona.

I'm honestly surprised to hear that about Obama. I figured he supported gay marriage.

100. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #190162 by FightingFalcon on June 8, 2008 at 1:20 pm

Whatever you label Jefferson, and I think he would be called an atheist today, he had a repulsion of religion. He tried to build a strong wall between church and state. Madison, Jefferson, Paine...and don't forget Franklin who was quite a slut for a xian.

Go to the Jefferson Memorial where you will see this quote (one of my favorite if not for the reference to god):

"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

There is little evidence to believe that Jefferson was an Atheist. Certainly very critical of organized religion, he was (as I said before) somewhere between a Deist and Agnostic. Please learn the difference between religion and divine providence. Jefferson may have hated the former but he believed in the latter.

Uh...old school Federalists believed in a strong central government...Hamilton ring a bell...he wanted a monarchy.

Hamilton was one Federalist and I'll go out on a limb here by saying that he was probably the only Founding Father to favor a return to the monarchy.

I don't mean to turn this into Civics 101 but since we are showing an ignorance of Federalism here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalism

I did not literally mean to imply that John McCain was a Federalist in the 1789 sense. I meant that he supports power sharing between states and federal government. Today, there are few allies left of State and Individual rights. John McCain is one of the few.