51. Against the grain: There are questions that science cannot answer

Comment #72033 by monkey2 on September 20, 2007 at 7:28 am

To be fair to the Independent, their journalist Nick Jackson has reported what he has read from Mary Midgley's 'Impact Pamphlet 'Intelligent Design and Other Idealogical Problems' and what he has heard from an interview with the author.

The initial idea of publishing this drivel may have come from Sarah Moore at Kings College London who is probably keen to advertise the upcoming debate at the Franklin Wilkins Building on the 3rd October

It is a testament to the growth of public interest in the subject that the Independent provided a journalist and column inches. We can't blame them for exposing insane views, especially when these insane views may be held by those at the heart of government.

I expect Mary Midgley to be given a rough ride at the debate and lose. I hope that Nick Jackson has his seat booked and will be allowed to report the outcome. It won't be particularly newsworthy when Mary Midgley gets her butt bitten, but on the other cheek, the Independent has set her up and it's readers are entitled to hear her howls.

Edit

Thanks to rgpratt for his research into the debaters and Roger Stanyard for his exposure of Steve Fuller. 3:1 against. No pressure then on Dr. Nicholas Everitt!

52. Religious education

Comment #71485 by monkey2 on September 18, 2007 at 9:49 pm

Bonzai says
You Brits here should start some kind of campaign to stop this madness.

Zaphod says
If religious education is to be mandatory it should have a secular module in it like humanism.

I tried to find out who designs the RE framework. It appears to be SACREs to some extent. I had decided that this must be an acronym for Secret Association for Christian Religious Education until I finally came across a detailed and relevant description of their activities at Http://www.humanism.org.uk/site/cms/contentViewArticle.asp?article=1266 .

53. Religious education

Comment #71260 by monkey2 on September 18, 2007 at 8:34 am

Thanks gcdavis for those links

I dipped in to Unit 1C: Celebrations: why do Christians give gifts at Christmas? Section 3: Invisible gifts
Why might a Christian want to 'give their heart' to Jesus? Children might say, 'Because I love Jesus'.

Surely that crosses the line between education and 'grooming'.

54. The Nonbelievers

Comment #71128 by monkey2 on September 17, 2007 at 10:00 pm

David Abel is a clever journalist who has decided what angle he is going to spin. Atheism is a religion. He knows that atheists are going to detest that angle. He is attempting to create or endorse the impression that humanists are the happy clappy religious version of atheism.

We have all observed recently that there are as many different personal gods as there are christians and that there are as many different atheists, from Sapient to Spinoza, as there are atheists.

Who do you want to bury/cremate you? A Humanist chaplain or Reverend Green? Who do you want visiting prisoners? A Humanist Chaplain or Reverend Green?

If Greg Epstein wants to get involved with care in the community then he has my support because I know that's not for me. In fact I'm a bit embarrassed that the only support he and others like him are going to get from me is this post!

55. The Dawkins debate

Comment #70524 by monkey2 on September 15, 2007 at 10:34 pm

Russell

You describe the ordinary punters evidence of God as being easy for them to understand with short chains of reasoning usually given to them by trustworthy people.

I think you could mention the Bible here as being conducive to these short chains.

You then describe the long chains of arguments that are required to understand the scientific view of the world.

Is there not a case for a 'short chain' book that offers a scientific view of the world. A book that does not seek to explain but simply tells it as it is at the present time?

56. Scientists' Good News: Earth May Survive Sun's Demise in 5 Billion Years

Comment #69988 by monkey2 on September 13, 2007 at 2:03 pm

Oh [rapturous] day! Callooh! Callay!"
He chortled in his joy.

57. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #69322 by monkey2 on September 10, 2007 at 10:28 pm

Downunder
I'm amazed that you acknowledge the ability of evolution to throw some light on how we came to be here and yet you can't see that evolution can offer an answer to why humans are so hell bent on fighting, why there is excessive glorification of winners and why have we set no limit to human greed.

If your cat can give a decent answer to any of your questions then you shouldn't be asking them.

58. The Fleas Are Multiplying!

Comment #68852 by monkey2 on September 8, 2007 at 11:53 pm

If you go to amazon you can 'Search inside' chapter 1 of Thomas Crean's 'A Catholic replies to Professor Dawkins'

This is a quote from TGD:

'There exists a superhuman, supernatural intelligence who deliberately designed and created the universe and everything in it, including us'

This is how Crean would 'prefer to replace the Professor's summary of theism':

'The whole universe, including ourselves, was designed and created by the supreme and uncreated intelligence', whom we call God.

Crean asks to his readers to consider for reasons of reverence the addition of 'supreme' as a description of God, which he says is a relatively minor point, and the subtraction of superhuman and supernatural because they could both be applied to angels as well as to God. He claims that 'for present purposes, nothing significant turns on these different ways of stating the question'.

Crean hasn't explained why he has added the description 'uncreated'. In fact he has slipped it without a mention in the hope that it will not be noticed. It is clearly one of the changes that he has made and, therefore, is covered by his claim that for present purposes, nothing significant turns on these different ways of stating the question.

So how does the insertion of 'uncreated' effect the argument; 'You say there is a creator, so I ask the question; who created the creator?' Clearly it is no longer possible. The argument would then be; You say there is an uncreated creator, so I ask the question; who created the uncreated creator?

Is Crean suggesting that the uncreated supreme intelligence evolved?

59. We need a more intelligent religion debate

Comment #68618 by monkey2 on September 7, 2007 at 10:55 pm

In J.M.Barrie's Never Never Land, Tinker Bell was dying because people had stopped believing in fairies. The only way to sustain them was to have children shout out "I believe"
In the real world it is God that is dying and Hobson, Bunting et al. are now being encouraged to 'shout out'. They don't care what they say in their articles. It's just an opportunity to shout "I believe".

60. What do these atheists understand of religion?

Comment #68033 by monkey2 on September 5, 2007 at 6:19 pm

Let's stick to critiquing the content of the article, rather than attacking the author.

61. Christopher Hitchens and Bill Donohue on Mother Teresa

Comment #68024 by monkey2 on September 5, 2007 at 4:59 pm

Reminds me of a cartoon I saw about 35 years ago:

62. Like any half-decent atheist, I'm fond of a bit of religion

Comment #67959 by monkey2 on September 5, 2007 at 11:37 am

Graeme wrote:

I've heard that atheist funerals can be very good but I've never been to one...
Maybe its time that I drew EXACTLY what I want at my funeral.
Any recommedations?? Anyone got their intructions written into their will?

63. Interview with BHA President Polly Toynbee

Comment #67953 by monkey2 on September 5, 2007 at 11:08 am

Polly Toynbee is a media savvy journalist / commentator. An excellent choice for President.

If anyone hasn't heard President Toynbee before this was her being very polite.

64. Real Out-of-Body Experiences

Comment #67803 by monkey2 on September 4, 2007 at 9:39 pm

Ehrsson threatened the illusory bodies of eight men and four women with a hammer. All of the subjects flinched or winced in alarm and the electrical currents in their skin jumped even though Ehrsson had explicitly promised not to hurt any of them at the beginning of the session.

When the rubber hand is whacked with a hammer, people wince and sometimes cry out.

The techniques could also be used to put people into the computer-generated virtual avatars either for therapy (as in body-image modification for anorexics) or for enhancing game experiences.

65. The New Atheists

Comment #67655 by monkey2 on September 4, 2007 at 7:09 am

Why has this particular article been reposted here three months later?

66. Mother Teresa's '40-year faith crisis'

Comment #67158 by monkey2 on September 2, 2007 at 9:23 am

Wow, if I came across as lecturing atheists at all I apologise. I have more respect for nonbelievers than I think you realise. I think some of your intentions are admirable. You're sceptical and always trying to understand things. That, it seems to me, is the way you should be about things.

67. Mother Teresa's '40-year faith crisis'

Comment #66659 by monkey2 on August 30, 2007 at 9:00 pm

At the risk of upsetting him, (I'm sure he'll forgive me), lane is an interesting example of the power of religion.

A young man in a vulnerable situation. He was indoctrinated by a religious person or religious persons unknown. He has swallowed their ichthus dogma, hook, line and sinker.

It is hard not to feel sorry for him as he swims through life imagining that someone else is making his decisions.

Live and let live. He's not doing any harm to anyone but himself, some might say.

The story of Mother Theresa, however, puts a different light on that attitude. Her treatment of the dying, by forcing her religious view of suffering on them whilst at the same time doubting it's veracity, is unforgivable.

I find it not surprising that lane admits to having his own doubts when he's teaching his little Sunday school class.

There is an urgent need to support the growth of a Humanist based program that reaches out to young people in need. It just can't be left to the religious.

68. The world's oldest bacteria

Comment #66014 by monkey2 on August 27, 2007 at 8:25 pm

I think this article may have lost something in translation. Some of the words seemed to have lost letters too.

The news is exciting - the oldest 'active' cells ever found. It would be nice to know where they were found. Was it nort-western Canada, Sibiria or the Antarctic?

Their project was about examining how bacteria can live after having been frozen down for millions of years. I hope they weren't too disappointed with their find being only half a million years old!

69. Only secular schools will overcome sectarianism

Comment #65741 by monkey2 on August 26, 2007 at 8:19 am

Yorker said

I'm glad to see the long-awaited politicisation of atheism has begun, once we gain strength the political vote-whores will have to change their ways.

70. Open letter to Michael Shermer in response to his letter...

Comment #65729 by monkey2 on August 26, 2007 at 7:13 am

Pewkatchoo

You are quite right. Atheism is the default position. It exists in everyone including the most deluded. Take Mother Theresa for example.

We may see a patch of blue sky that appears to be expanding when, in fact, it is the clouds that are moving.

The same could apply to science. A clearer understanding of the natural world around us is being revealed as the clouds of our ignorance are blown away.

I like the idea of humanist based ethics as being the default position as well.

71. Open letter to Michael Shermer in response to his letter...

Comment #65708 by monkey2 on August 25, 2007 at 11:28 pm

Bad

I could fisk your original post but it would only appear as a ridiculously inadequate representation of my breathless misreading.

I'd prefer to point out that Brian Sapients article was reposted to this web site from www.rationalresponders.com a point that seems to have been missed by some of the early posters who seemed to think it was written for them.

The Rational Response Squad has had a big influence on the god debate in the US. A vastly more effectual influence than our message boarding here will ever do.

I felt a tangible connection to Brian and Kelly with them posting here. Their web site has a big link to this site under the heading of 'friends'. I was a bit embarrassed at the inanity of some the comments they had to deal with but hey, it's the internet. He's a cool dude and she's a cool chick. They know the score......in fact Brian read the score Zealots 1 Atheists 0

It could be argued that any discord that has surfaced was caused by Michael Shermer's article. If it was carefully worded not to be critical of anyone mentioned, was he then referring to the RRS and others by omission?

My problem is that I consider the work done by the RRS to be a vital part of the engine that is moving atheism forward. If the four authors mentioned are each assigned a cylinder and if the RRS was assigned the carburettor then the 'blasphemy challenge' would be the nitrous oxide injection.

We've got a long way to go. As far as I'm concerned the faster the better.

72. Open letter to Michael Shermer in response to his letter...

Comment #65570 by monkey2 on August 24, 2007 at 10:05 pm

BAD

You are a naughty atheist aren't you.

According to your reading of the article, atheists should refrain from sneering. Yet the obvious disdain in your post is outrageous.

Perhaps you should not be looking down your nose at the arguments of others but instead give them serious consideration. As a result youv'e underestimated your opponents, leading to a clumsy response.

Your argument - not mine!

73. Poll: Which religion do you associate with?

Comment #65071 by monkey2 on August 22, 2007 at 8:23 pm

Automath says

They could have more easily had none as an option.

74. Open letter to Michael Shermer in response to his letter...

Comment #65065 by monkey2 on August 22, 2007 at 7:50 pm

Michael Shermers article was rubbish. Sorry. I think Michael Shermers article was rubbish. It was full of statements that made me shout "That's rubbish". I feel that my personal view has been vindicated by the number of posts and the 'Rational Response' response.

My original reaction to the article was that here was an atheist that was just having a bad day. Just as Bizarro Dawkins turns out to be a 20 year old virgin and we can all say "Ah poor thing. I know what he needs", so Michael Shermer may have been feeling a bit down in the dumps.

I wondered if there was anything we could do to cheer him up. I reread his article trying to find out what it was that he wanted. Apart from the silly reference to 'militancy' his article is fine until he gets to his numbered reasons. Suddenly the black clouds arrive almost as if he has cut and pasted them on a rainy day.

Don't attack religion or their numbers will increase. Confine yourself to the wonders of science. It reads a bit like a personal mantra. After such a distinguished career in the service of atheism perhaps he just wants to retire quietly and be left alone. There is no doubt his phone must have been ringing non-stop recently from journalists wanting 'Mr Skeptic' to comment on the recent attack on religion.

I suggest that, in order to cheer him up, we have an annual awards ceremony for atheists and that 'Mr. Skeptic' is nominated for a lifetime achievement award.

75. Rational Atheism

Comment #64803 by monkey2 on August 21, 2007 at 11:49 pm

What's the point? We may as well give up. There's no hope. Whatever you say it will just make things worse. I'm just going to go and lie down. I wore myself out writing that article for scientific american. I still can't find my prozac.

76. God Bless Me, It's a Best-Seller!

Comment #64125 by monkey2 on August 17, 2007 at 10:16 pm

you can get away with anything in this country if you can shove the word "Reverend" in front of your name.

77. Good luck, Dawkins!

Comment #63773 by monkey2 on August 15, 2007 at 8:32 pm

I've seen too many horrible outcomes to think it's just a bit of harmless fun.

78. Church and State: Divided we stand

Comment #63566 by monkey2 on August 14, 2007 at 9:24 pm

You could argue that if a secular government controls the church through establishment it will be able control fundamentalism.

However it's a double edged sword.

In practice the secular government has to pay for that control with a tacit approval of all things religious.

79. Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris: The Unholy Trinity ... Thank God.

Comment #63534 by monkey2 on August 14, 2007 at 5:56 pm

I like 'pissed off faithless'. Is that what happens when you get a vicar drunk?

80. Church and State: Divided we stand

Comment #63527 by monkey2 on August 14, 2007 at 5:18 pm

It is no coincidence, in my view, that organized religion is thriving in America and dying in much of Europe. The separation of church and state is good for religion.

81. Scarlet Letter Campaign Update: A Victory

Comment #62691 by monkey2 on August 10, 2007 at 9:54 pm

CreationWiki - What a wonderful resource for Atheist arguement.

I've just had a look at their dinosaur story with references to dinosaurs mentioned in the Bible ie the Behemoth ( Sauropod) and the Leviathan ( Plesiosaur).

Is that all! No mention of T Rex! Any antediluvian folk story would surely have to mention them.

82. Science and the Islamic World

Comment #62683 by monkey2 on August 10, 2007 at 9:09 pm

Our female students have not issued the threat of throwing acid on the uncovered faces of women. However, such a threat could be used for creating the fear of Islam among sinful women. There is no harm in it. There are far more horrible punishments in the hereafter for such women.

83. Another Flea is Born

Comment #62457 by monkey2 on August 9, 2007 at 7:47 pm

Great bit of advertising for the village atheist http://www.thevillageatheist.co.uk/ who has been over-run with work and personal matters but has now returned.

84. God Answers Prayers Of Paralyzed Little Boy: 'No' Says God

Comment #60759 by monkey2 on August 2, 2007 at 7:48 pm

Interesting proposition archaeoangel

If we could get 100 people to donate 1 Kilo of peanuts each it might work.

Salted or Dry Roasted?

Do you have an address for Ganesh?

85. God Answers Prayers Of Paralyzed Little Boy: 'No' Says God

Comment #60751 by monkey2 on August 2, 2007 at 7:38 pm

Shame on you toastmonster

If only I could walk, this would be the greatest day of my life

86. God Answers Prayers Of Paralyzed Little Boy: 'No' Says God

Comment #60744 by monkey2 on August 2, 2007 at 7:22 pm

Thanks a lot toastmonster

Spoil everyone's fun why don't you.

I suppose you don't believe in santa either.

87. They let anybody onto the faculty at Oxford nowadays

Comment #60706 by monkey2 on August 2, 2007 at 5:56 pm

When I first saw Alistar McGrath debating with RD. (#14 Top 100 Articles). I came away feeling very stupid because I couldn't follow AM's argument.

I thought it was because I was out of his league. Him being an Oxford Professor of Historical Theology.

Thank you PZ for demonstrating so clearly that he just talks nonsense.

88. The Out Campaign

Comment #60668 by monkey2 on August 2, 2007 at 4:21 pm

As I said Yorker It's not going to be easy.

Faced by two atheists, one shouting "I'm a None" and the other shouting " I'm a Bright" the inquisition would have to cart off the None first.

89. The Out Campaign

Comment #60653 by monkey2 on August 2, 2007 at 3:53 pm

RD writes

Fill OUT 'Atheist' on any form that asks for your personal details, especially the next census form.

90. Charles Darwin - Legacy

Comment #55762 by monkey2 on July 12, 2007 at 7:12 am

Apologies - on further digging it does not seem that Prof Kauffman has receieved any templeton award, grant or prize. I apologise for any distress I may have caused to him or his family.

91. Charles Darwin - Legacy

Comment #55653 by monkey2 on July 11, 2007 at 10:04 pm

You are quite right Ian. I have no problem with the idea that speciation may be subject to chaos and yes AndyD the sand analogy made a lot of sense to me to.
My complaint was that in order to make something easier for us to understand it does not help to ask us to picture the hand of God pouring sand onto a table. Why not simply the sand in an hourglass or Kauffmans own hand? It struck me as gratuitous religiosity.
Since my original post I've googled - templeton prize steven kauffman - and in the first article I read it appears that two or three years ago he was given the Templeton Award. Since we are told that the documentary was filmed in 1998 his gratuitous religiosity clearly goddamned worked.

92. Charles Darwin - Legacy

Comment #55374 by monkey2 on July 10, 2007 at 9:51 pm

One pictures the hand of God dropping sand onto a table

93. I believe that there is no God.

Comment #52823 by monkey2 on June 28, 2007 at 6:27 am

I believe there is no god nor was there a creator
Heaven and hell do not exist
Jesus christ was no gods son
being neither conceived nor born supernaturally
If he lived then he died and stayed dead
Having neither descended nor ascended
He neither sits nor judges
I do not believe in spirits churches saints resurrection
Or everlasting life Amen

94. Row over religion's role in US jails

Comment #51990 by monkey2 on June 25, 2007 at 8:10 pm

I would love to see a secular / Humanist version run in parallel if I didn't feel very uneasy about the use of brainwashing as a tool for reintegrating prisoners into society.

95. Atheists: stand up and be counted

Comment #50644 by monkey2 on June 19, 2007 at 7:42 am

What can we do?

Just when you think you have the world all suussed out you go and find that Adam Rutherford, is the first ever human. Next your going to tell me that fides_et_ratio is Eve.

Please carry on and take no notice of me. I'm just totally frustrated by the failure of this thread to answer/ discuss the article at the top of the page. An opportunity hidden under the fog of Genesis

96. Atheists: stand up and be counted

Comment #50636 by monkey2 on June 19, 2007 at 7:05 am

What can we do?

stop press. Fides_et_ratio has resigned his post as a catholic school teacher and is standing as the first atheist candidate in the uk parliamentary elections. Congratulations.

97. Atheists: stand up and be counted

Comment #50622 by monkey2 on June 19, 2007 at 6:00 am

Thank you Rokort for comenting on my suggestion of a UK Parliamentary Candidate.

The title of the post was Atheists - Stand up and be Counted. That sounds to me like a call to do something practical. Adam Rutherford refers to the Government, politicians and their religous beliefs. Am I the only one who could hear him shouting "for Gods sake give me an atheist to vote for" ?

As parents, Atheists can lobby the head teachers, but it is the politicians who ultimately have the power to define the school curriculum. We can petition them to get rid of Faith Schools but if they take their religous beliefs into parliament, quietly hidden in their back pockets, what hope is there for them to vote rationally.

98. Atheists: stand up and be counted

Comment #50568 by monkey2 on June 18, 2007 at 7:42 pm

What can we do?

How about an atheist candidate in the UK Parliamentary elections. It's not that expensive and it has, over the long term, been a successful tactic for the greens. Politicians nowadays all want to be 'greenier than thou'.

99. Does God Exist? The Nightline Face-Off

Comment #39786 by monkey2 on May 11, 2007 at 11:24 pm

In response to chauvinj's question
"where exactly did they get their theory of evolution from?"
I have a copy of 'Did man get here by evolution or creation?' published by the Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society in 1967. Kirk Camerons 'research' into evolution almost certainly consisted of reading this book and possibly only this book. I say possibly because I couldn't find any illustrations of Crockaducks. He may of course have a later edition.