51. Do they really think the earth is flat?

Comment #224546 by rod-the-farmer on August 5, 2008 at 5:02 am

I don't think it is fair to equate flat-earthers with creationists. Flat-earth belief can be easily refuted, in varying degrees. Most people, standing at the top of a cliff overlooking a large enough body of water, can see the curvature of the earth. They might still deny it, but a trip in the shuttle will be the clincher, I suspect. They may not WANT to believe, but the proof is there. Actually, I suspect a large proportion of supposedly flat-earthers are merely devils' advocates, honing their debating skills, as has been mentioned previously. In summary, the evidence is there, clear & unambiguous. Only a literally blind person could miss it.

Now creationists are something entirely different. It is difficult, if not impossible, to prove a negative. The non-existence of dog cannot be shown to be true. So creationists can believe what they like, and we cannot PROVE they are wrong. They will deny any attempts to show the extremely low probability. You could try to demonstrate the endless proofs of an old earth, using all the modern sciences, and point out their illogical refutation of it all, when preferring to use a single bronze age book as their "proof".

One group is 'fixable', the other is not likely. Equating the two is fun, and annoys the creationists, but not likely to generate converts.

52. Embracing goodness, without God

Comment #224034 by rod-the-farmer on August 4, 2008 at 2:44 am

Re Comment 3, #223798 by mordacious1
Now THAT made me laugh. I could never claim to be Canada's top atheist. Maybe one of the more vocal ! But in keeping with the idea that atheists are good people too, my next door neighbour is a Jehovahs Witness. Very nice, elderly, solid farm wife living alone, she is no longer steady on her feet, and in fact drives her car to the end of her driveway to pick up her mail, a distance of at most 100 yards. Her nearest family lives several miles away, so when I have the tractor-mounted snowblower fired up during the winter, I always check her driveway in case it needs doing too. She once offered to pay me, but I declined, saying "Of course not, we are neighbours." I often cut the most difficult part of her lawn, along the edge of the road. What I am going to say if she describes such acts as 'christian charity' I don't know. She is a nice person, and I don't want to have her faint and fall at the thought of an evil atheist living next door.

53. Evangelically Serious Science

Comment #223633 by rod-the-farmer on August 3, 2008 at 2:15 am

One can only hope it is picked up by other country broadcasters and made available to the rest of the world. I will start prodding the CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Company) to see if I cannot get them moving in that direction, if they have not already started.

54. Why Islam Is Unfunny for a Cartoonist

Comment #223438 by rod-the-farmer on August 2, 2008 at 9:19 am

The prosecutor's office notes that it has also taken action against Muslims suspected of discrimination. A Moroccan-born Dutchman was recently convicted of discrimination for writing in a blog that homosexuals should be tossed from rooftops and thrown down stairs. A court ordered him to do community-service work.

So, that makes....one ? And one would therefore assume no one has complained about imams preaching death to apostates, limited rights for women, etc. etc. or any of the other nasty bits in shariah law ? I had up to now been an admirer of the Dutch.

If they don't do something about any imams who preach violence, I take it all back.

55. The moment of truth

Comment #223105 by rod-the-farmer on August 1, 2008 at 1:21 pm

By two to one the judges rejected her bid, arguing that one "cannot, at one's whims or fancies, renounce or embrace a religion".

Hah. Just watch me. Now I am a zoroastrian, now I am not. Too fast for you ? Let me slow it down. Now....I ...am...a catholic..........now I am not. See ? Easy. Over to you, IrateAtheist.

56. Is Killing Liberals a Hate Crime?

Comment #222608 by rod-the-farmer on July 31, 2008 at 3:25 pm

I was under the impression that Hate Crime legislation was passed to allow more senior jurisdictions to lay charges when it became apparent that local officials would not.

57. Workers' Religious Freedom vs. Patients' Rights

Comment #222605 by rod-the-farmer on July 31, 2008 at 3:18 pm

Re Comment 21 by PatternSeeker

I suggest that anyone who has an ethical problem performing certain procedures mark themselves "off" for the period. The cut in pay should demonstrate how strongly they feel about opting out.

As for the circumcision question, I would state my position something like this...."I am opposed to genital mutilation. It costs millions/thousands of lives around the world, and is medically un-necessary."

58. What's wrong with science as religion

Comment #222592 by rod-the-farmer on July 31, 2008 at 3:06 pm

The human story is a tale told by idiots suffering from delusions of both purpose and grandeur, and we are all actors in this grand farce.

This is a pretty good description of religion, telling us all we have a purpose here on earth. But then he DOES work at an evangelical college. Can you teach Physics to evangelicals without stumbling over the age of the universe question ?

I get the impression he feels there must be a purpose to our existence, and the only place this can be found is in religion. Science can't do this, it seems to him. Sorry, I do not agree. I can easily imagine someone thinking there is NO purpose to Life at all, at least in the terms religion uses. I can just as easily think of someone who discards religion as the source for such a belief in the "purpose" of an individual life, while at the same time thinking while we are here, it is a good thing to avoid harming others, while trying to improve the lot of all. That would seem enough of a purpose, to me. If he is moved to awe regarding the natural universe, why drag bronze age myths into it ? We humans have a terrible tendency to say "If I don't know the answer to that question now, and I am an educated person, then therefore it must be beyond ALL our knowing."

Argument from personal ignorance ? What is depressing is that many of the people who take this attitude are highly educated scientists, who seem to forget that time marches on, and knowledge increases with it. I need to ask these people face-to-face, "If you had a chance to talk with someone like Ernest Rutherford, would you tell him he had everything right ?" He was very bright, but still had some things wrong, now that we know a bit more than he did, back then.

59. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222109 by rod-the-farmer on July 30, 2008 at 3:51 pm

Speaking of ancestry, anyone on this site done the Spencer Wells DNA swab thing and sent it off to National Geographic or whoever it is ? What do you get back, if I may ask ? Anyone ? Anyone ? One of the two gentlemen from Verona ?

60. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222024 by rod-the-farmer on July 30, 2008 at 1:01 pm

I agree with Al and Steve. kkelly seems to have a sort of Tourette syndrome, occasionally coming out with inappropriate comments. kkelly, you need to think over very carefully what you post here. Some is offensive, and you owe all of us, I suggest, an apology, and a commitment to cease in the future.

61. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #221743 by rod-the-farmer on July 30, 2008 at 4:12 am

A quarter of Muslim students said they had little or no respect for homosexuals. As for whether British Muslim servicemen should be allowed to opt out of hostilities with Muslim countries, 57% said they should and a further 25% said they were not sure.

So let me see if I understand this point. British muslim students believe it is OK for a muslim to opt out of serving in a muslim country when in the UK military. But if a muslim wishes to opt out of certain activities of the muslim faith (e.g. wearing a scarf or a burkha, praying 5x per day) then that person is an apostate (or nearly) and should be beaten, raped, killed, stoned or whatever. Seems fair to me.

Religion poisons everything, to coin a phrase.

62. Religions thrived to protect against disease

Comment #221740 by rod-the-farmer on July 30, 2008 at 3:57 am

Ahhh....so....now that they have established religion is just another disease emanating from hot countries.......and given that global warming is here, should we then expect to see more religious activity as temperatures rise ? I am confused. (And my wife says "Easily done".)

63. Breeding for God

Comment #221725 by rod-the-farmer on July 30, 2008 at 3:28 am

Thanks, Fanusi mark me down as a supporter.

(1) Stop immigration from any country, but especially muslim countries unless the in-bound have signed a 'charter of rights' and agree to be expelled if they violate them. "If you don't agree to abide by the rules of our society, we won't let you live here. You can only visit."
(I thought I had a previous post on this, but it was on a different site)

(2) Close faith-based schools, and offer comparative religion classes. Anyone who objects to their children learning about other religions (and NO religion) is a target for an investigation into possible child abuse.

64. Church exorcism protected by First Amendment

Comment #221339 by rod-the-farmer on July 29, 2008 at 2:13 pm

Hiram Sasser, is the director of litigation for Liberty Legal Institute, a non-profit organisation representing litigants in religious freedom cases..... And while this might mean "certain harms may go unaddressed", he said, "the larger protection of the church and religious freedom is the overriding concern."

Good grief. Protection of A church takes precedence over the right of the individual to escape her tormentors. Prudence requires I not suggest ways of dealing with this, privately.

65. Faith is not the answer

Comment #221333 by rod-the-farmer on July 29, 2008 at 2:06 pm

So fat christians are....what ?.....an anomaly ? The work of the devilled egg ?

66. Council ban on atheist websites

Comment #221158 by rod-the-farmer on July 29, 2008 at 11:49 am

Grrr. OK for staff to look at religious websites during work, but not atheist sites. Grrr.

67. A third of Muslim students back killings

Comment #220592 by rod-the-farmer on July 28, 2008 at 4:14 pm

I am a bit surprised I have not yet heard of one of the more radical political parties in the UK demanding a stop to muslim immigration. I thought someone would start beating that particular drum by now. I guess if certain people are worried about being out-bred, one way to slow that down is to stop further immigrants.

I have often thought one way to control who enters your country is to demand that any potential immigrant sign a document of understanding. It would list the core beliefs of the target society, including the rights of women to do everything men can, without exception. (If this in fact the case for the new society!) There might even be courses the prospect would have to take at the local consulate or embassy, and should there be any family members (e.g. women, or men who believe they have absolute control over all family members) who might be affected by any changes from the "old" society to the "new", these individuals could be given one-on-one sessions to make them aware of these changes. Any refusal by any one family member to allow any other family member to attend such a session, is grounds for rejection, no re-application within six months. Assume every family member signs, then immigration is permitted, with the specific understanding that anyone who breaks one of the laws relating to these core beliefs, is instantly deported, and can never re-apply. The remaining family members are welcome to stay, if they choose. If you choose not to sign, then you stay where you are.

68. Catholics To Pope: Lift Birth Control Ban

Comment #220518 by rod-the-farmer on July 28, 2008 at 2:23 pm

I wonder of those catholic groups who wrote the pope would consider holding back all their contributions to their local churches ? I bet there are enough individuals, who if they did this, would find their respective churches reporting back up the chain of command "Hey, our finances are drying up here. If this is not fixed, we will have to consider closing some of our churches. Let's have another look at this contraception thing."

Money talks, to coin a phrase.

69. Texas Fiction Science

Comment #220051 by rod-the-farmer on July 28, 2008 at 2:55 am

I have said it before, but will repeat it here...

To a creationist...and in particular the SBOE....

(1) Please list IN DETAIL the strengths of the theory of evolution, as you see them.

(2) Please list IN DETAIL the strengths of the theory of creationism, as you see them.

(3) Please list IN DETAIL the weaknesses of the theory of evolution, as you see them.

(4) Please list IN DETAIL the weaknesses of the theory of creationism, as you see them.

My position is that until this is done, and posted on a public site, they should not be allowed to teach in Texas, Louisiana, etc.

I feel once they answer these simple question, they will be then open to attack. But only then.

70. Escape or betrayal.

Comment #218230 by rod-the-farmer on July 25, 2008 at 5:17 am

Re Comment #217827 by kaiserkriss

Farmer, While I think the sentiment of your argument is good, the reality is, it won't work that way.

I would much rather invest in a company that has a policy of providing free education to women for example in a Muslim country. Work the system from the inside until the stupidity of the current situation is realized.

I support your idea of helping educate women. However, what I have read about this tactic, in Afghanistan at least, is that people like the Taliban destroy the schools, and attack the young women who attend. I am concerned as to what would happen to muslim women, once they ARE educated. Will they be able to find jobs ? Radical muslim men seem bent on preventing the education of women, other than perhaps how to perform menial tasks. And it even seems some muslim women support this sort of thing, as "unseemly" for muslim women. I am reminded that Adam & Eve were forbidden to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. How telling is THAT !

I can't speak about schools in other muslim countries, but I suspect it is better, although I did read an article about university in Pakistan, where the female students were pretty much cowed into silence during classes.

I see the problem here as one where many (perhaps most) muslim men remain convinced women are second-class citizens. It is the right of men to treat women as brood mares. So perhaps in addition to educating women using your suggestion, we work on the men, using mine. If the men understand they will not see any of MY western money, due to their treatment of women, that may be an incentive to change, coming from within. But I agree it will be a long row to hoe. I cannot get out of my mind that video of the Cohen character who emigrated from the U.S., and converted from being a jew, to a muslim, complete with complaining to RD that he "allowed" his (western) women to dress like prostitutes, in Cohens' eyes. I'd like to ask him why he "allows" his own women to dress like they have leprosy.

71. Red hot enlightenment led me to believe in one fewer god

Comment #217636 by rod-the-farmer on July 24, 2008 at 1:32 pm

Re Comment #217550 by Shaden

I can't say that I've seen a horse with blinkers...

I used to have a Mustang with blinkers, and a friend had a Pinto with them as well......

72. Escape or betrayal.

Comment #217629 by rod-the-farmer on July 24, 2008 at 1:21 pm

For several years now I have suggested one small way we in the west can individually contribute to changing this situation. Many of us have heard of the so-called "green" investment funds. These purport to invest your savings only in those companies which are environmentally sensitive, and practice this sort of thing in whatever industrial processes they use to run their businesses. I suggest now is the time for a "gender equality" fund. Monies sent to whoever operates it will only be invested in organisations and countries where gender equality is the norm. Those countries who do not offer women equal access to education, to travel, to clothing, jobs etc. will find the managers of this fund will tell them

"Sorry, our members do not support your policies re gender equality. Under our rules we are forbidden to invest money in your country."

This works at a secondary level as well. Company A may indeed be gender neutral. But if they OPERATE in a non-neutral country, the fund manager would say the same thing.

"Sorry, our members do not support that regime due to their inequality of sexes. We can't invest our money in your COMPANY because you have offices there, AND sexual equality is not present in those offices."

Those countries who want our investments, would have to start changing their policies re sexual equality. No one is forced to, as these are sovereign states. Who knows, it may even become a badge of honour, to be able to say (in addition to ISO9001, for example) that your company/country is on the gender equality "approved" list.

I suspect a great many women would direct their investments to such a fund, and maybe many men. A simple rationale for doing so is that with only 50% of the population participating fully in society, they would seem to be less efficient than a country with women playing a full role. Anyone with any familiarity with the female of the species knows full well they bring a different insight to problem solving. And in the west, it has become obvious that women control a growing piece of the financial pie, both as single women and in a marriage.

Are there any fund managers on this site, who could set up such a scheme ? I would contact my financial advisor if one were to become available.

73. Historian predicts the end of 'science superpowers'

Comment #217598 by rod-the-farmer on July 24, 2008 at 1:01 pm

Interesting. One of the problems I have read re U.S. universities is the increased attention given to foreigners entering the U.S, by the Border Patrol. This is causing those students to re-consider attending U.S. universities for advanced degrees, and choosing other countries (Europe, Canada, Australia) instead. That means declining enrollment of foreign students.

Then we combine this with the as-yet un-measurable decline in science knowledge, due to the fundie attacks on subjects like evolution (among others). The result may be an enhancement to the effect described in the article above. Spreading the higher levels of science eduction around to other countries would seem to be of benefit to all. Intellectual competition between schools is usually good.

Noteworthy is the lack of any comments on the effects this will have on the muslim world. As has been mentioned before on this site, Spain translates more technical books in one year than the entire muslim world has done in the past 1,000 years. This does NOT bode well for the future of islamic countries. They would seem to be a new type of "have not" people surfacing.

74. How Anecdotal Evidence Can Undermine Scientific Results

Comment #217126 by rod-the-farmer on July 24, 2008 at 1:07 am

Here is an anecdote. Personal. Several times in my adult life I have had minor cuts and abrasions on my lower legs when I was wearing shorts. Different dogs I have owned have decided they should lick those wounds, if they happened to be near when there was a small amount of fresh blood. I noticed that those wounds the dog had licked, healed much more quickly than any they did not. I imagined there was some sort of enzyme in dog saliva that promotes clotting or some such thing. When I mentioned this idea to my doctor he was dubious.

Anyone wishing to test this hypothesis scientifically, please feel free.

75. A Natural Selection

Comment #216640 by rod-the-farmer on July 23, 2008 at 11:08 am

I am reading The Ancestors Tale, and the visual charts of the passage of time cause me to shake my head in amazement. No WONDER there have been many evolutionary changes. Look at all the TIME they have had to occur. This really helped bring it home for me.

76. Good Science Writers: Richard Dawkins

Comment #216361 by rod-the-farmer on July 23, 2008 at 3:09 am

I am working my way through The Ancestors Tale, after grinding my way through The Blind Watchmaker. The latter nade me think I had perhaps reached my personal Peter Principle re my understanding of biology. I found it rather difficult. The former is much easier, for me. TGD was really good. (My personal comments on the ability of RD as a science writer.)

And now for my burning question, which I have as yet not seen answered in Ancestor, but is where the question came to me. What prevents organism A from successfully breeding with organism B ? Or even partially successful, as in mules. Please be specific.

77. Islam subway ads cause stir in New York

Comment #216349 by rod-the-farmer on July 23, 2008 at 2:24 am

How on earth are any Muslim children to get any affection outside their home when they can't see their mother's face?

On seeing a woman in a burka, I hope to be near a small child who asks "Why is that lady wearing a mask ?" My response "Maybe she has leprosy and is horribly disfigured."

78. Islam subway ads cause stir in New York

Comment #216111 by rod-the-farmer on July 22, 2008 at 6:50 pm

I just watched the movie refuting evolution on the whyislam site. An expensive, professionally-done movie assembled out of quote-mining, half-truths and outright falsehoods. Even a lesser light such as myself would have no trouble refuting this in front of an audience. I suggest anyone intending to watch it have pen & paper ready to make notes on all the garbage "facts". Plus it has the usual conflation of abiogenesis with evolution. Sigh.

I did have one thought though. Maybe we start telling the U.S. school boards that muslims are opposed to teaching evolution. Now THAT might get them thinking.

79. Islam subway ads cause stir in New York

Comment #216077 by rod-the-farmer on July 22, 2008 at 5:59 pm

How about another enticement....

"Join OUR group, and if anyone tries to leave, YOU get to KILL them".

80. Richard Dawkins on Al Jazeera English

Comment #215391 by rod-the-farmer on July 21, 2008 at 7:09 pm

Today there was an article about dinosaur tracks found in Yemen. The locals are very impressed, and hope it drives tourism.

http://www.reuters.com/article/scienceNews/idUSL2024546120080522

There did not seem to be much objection to the proposed age of the tracks, from the locals, who one might assume did not have a really broad science education.

81. Surgeon General Nominee Dismisses Homosexuality Paper

Comment #215389 by rod-the-farmer on July 21, 2008 at 7:04 pm

Well, if few will do so, then I feel I must comment that some of the language on this particular thread is....inappropriate....for this site. While I support the rights of gays & lesbians to do what they wish in the privacy of their own homes etc., the terminology used by kkelly and some others is.....not.....necessary.

Flame me is you wish, but I was surprised to see this here. Might I suggest that those responsible delete their own posts as required. The tone of the debate will be improved, and we will not be held up as "an example of the sort of things that atheists talk about".

82. Nine face stoning death in Iran

Comment #214625 by rod-the-farmer on July 20, 2008 at 5:40 pm

I bet if someone smuggled out a video of the stoning, the world wide outcry would put an end to it really quickly. Few countries can stand the public pressure against such a revolting idea, if the video became available.

83. Jefferson Bible reveals Founding Father's view of God, faith

Comment #214432 by rod-the-farmer on July 20, 2008 at 1:02 pm

LOTR fans. Figures. There are probably a lot of them/us on this site. I found the first book way back in 1966 or so. Have all three extended editions on DVD within a few feet. Plus The Hobbit and The Silmarillion (I think) in book form. Several softcopy editions of LOTR. The original paperback is really worn, after about 10 or more readings. My wife and son are also now fans. None of us speak Elvish, tho'. And our honeymoon trip to NZ happened before they made the film, otherwise we would have gone to some of the places.

84. Jefferson Bible reveals Founding Father's view of God, faith

Comment #214391 by rod-the-farmer on July 20, 2008 at 11:21 am

Yet, he is the least likely person I'd want to pray with

Not being familiar with the more obscure rituals of the xian church, is this a common activity ? Inviting someone to pray with you ? This seems creepy to me. Kind of like the Ori in Stargate. You have to pray publicly or we zap you with our advanced technology. And anyway, I thought the bible specifically recommended private prayer. The more I think about this, the more it sounds like mind control. Yuk. (shivers)

85. Calling World Conference on Dialogue a Symbol of Unity Among Different Traditions

Comment #213493 by rod-the-farmer on July 18, 2008 at 1:49 pm

Ban Ki-Moon says

debunk the dangerous myth that religion, even when properly understood, inspires violence.

Are we to interpret from this that it is only improperly understood religion that leads to violence ? Ok. Interesting claim. Do you have any evidence to support this ? And your plans to deal with this, if true, are....?

King Abdullah says (according to a previous comment, the accuracy of which I am trusting in)

It is therefore incumbent upon us to declare to the world that difference must not lead to conflict and confrontation, and to state that the tragedies that have occurred in human history were not attributable to religion, but were the result of extremism with which some adherents of every divinely revealed religion, and of every political ideology, have been afflicted.

Again, OK. YOUR plans to deal with this "extremism" are....? There is a common perception (perhaps not entirely accurate) in the west that Islam is a violent religion, since many/most of the actions causing death to innocent civilians in recent years, are done by people claiming to be devout muslims.

Dear King

How about getting all the islamic scholars in your country to throw out these violent individuals, and those who train and exhort them to acts of v iolence, to advise the world wide Ummah that they are not to be tolerated, that Islam is a religion of peace, and any country which harbours them will find any and all its' citizens banned from pilgrimage to Saudia Arabia. That would help, and is a relatively painless way to help ensure compliance. I await your response, yours truly, a rationalist who has so far avoided extremism and/or violence in my faith (or lack thereof).

86. The Return of Religion

Comment #211789 by rod-the-farmer on July 16, 2008 at 9:55 am

Yet I do not know a religious person among my friends and acquaintances who does deny that picture.....(The mystery that confronts us as we gaze upwards at the Milky Way) or who regards it as posing the remotest difficulty for his faith.

If this is really true, he needs to get out more. Or at least, read up on the subject on the internet.

The evangelical atheists are subliminally aware that their abdication in the face of science does not make the universe more intelligible, nor does it provide an alternative answer to our metaphysical enquiries. It simply brings enquiry to a stop.

Aaarrgghh. Atheists bring inquiry to a stop ? Does the man have his head on backasswards, or is he truly this deluded ? It is the goddidit brigade who bring rational inquiry to a halt. Atheists continue to ask questions, and explore, and test predictions. Let me think now. What sort of inquiry would atheists "bring to a stop" ?? How about "Why are thoughts ?" "Who is yellow ?" Clearmind, we need your input here.

87. Fury at funeral songs ban

Comment #211487 by rod-the-farmer on July 16, 2008 at 4:36 am

My orders for MY funeral are that at the beginning, attendees will be told the rules..."No priests permitted inside. No one is allowed to pray out loud during the ceremony. Anyone found praying out loud will be forcibly removed from the room, by friends & family who will literally kick your ass. You want to pray out loud ? Do so outside." And that includes some members of my immediate family, who may indeed wish to pray for me.

I agree with the previous comments that a church which imposes rules as described is entering a death spiral. No donations indeed. Quote Carlin ON..."God is all powerful, all-knowing, all wise. But God needs MONEY"....quote Carlin OFF.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

88. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211470 by rod-the-farmer on July 16, 2008 at 3:53 am

Hang on, Steve

I don't care. I am actually shocked that people like you, on a supposedly clear-thinking site, are proposing what seems like a dictatorship of idea - that in a democratic society, we can force ideas on others. That sounds like fundamentalism to me.

Forcing our ideas ? No one is being forced to participate in this debate, either here or on Pharyngula. Certainly none of the "other" side. Nor are they forced to watch the proposed PZ Myers video of cracker desecration. There is NO impact on anyone on the dark side. None of us is out knocking on doors, offering to give them free copies of the PZ Myers DVD. There is NO impact.

On OUR side, the good and true knights for truth and rational thought, what impact do we find ? Threats of extreme violence against PZ, and attempts to have the student expelled from university, and to have PZ fired from his job. Now THAT is what I think most people would agree is "forcing their ideas".

I appreciate your desire to have calm debate, but with the truly delusional, it is not always possible. Their behaviour has to be held up into the light, for all to see. They have the right to be offended....but not to physically attack the person they find offensive. Count me among those standing at the barricades on this one.

89. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211334 by rod-the-farmer on July 15, 2008 at 7:12 pm

Several recent posts (elad-usa possibly the first) have compared medical treatment of deluded individuals to what PZ is attempting to do. I certainly appreciate your clinical experience, and the success a moderate, calm approach my well produce, but I suggest that the circumstances are quite different here.

In your case, the individual has been confined, probably at the request/order of a government agency, for his protection, of that of society as a whole. Or maybe even a self-commit ? These individuals may or may not have threatened to do bodily harm to the staff of the facility where they are kept. There may well be "guards" who will assist in restraining the individual should he/she attack a clinician during one of these calm sessions. Your home address is not made public to the more bizarre of these patients, is it ?

In the case of PZ, he is being threatened by multiple people who have NOT been diagnosed as deluded, no matter what we atheists may think of them. They are therefore free to travel around the country, even to seek him out personally. They can purchase/own firearms. PZ has NO protection by the state, and the number of individuals who may indeed try to harm him, may be significant. As we all know, some of the more violent members of this "deluded" group have already committed murder to try to impose their religious beliefs on those who do not hold those same beliefs.

So while your experience with a less confrontational approach may work well, this is an apples vs oranges comparison. He is not just preaching to those who wrote the threating letters, he is addressing his comments to those who hold similar beliefs, but who are not violent about it. Perhaps they will see how dangerous their belief system can become, when adherents are whipped into a frenzy by demagogues like Donohue.

90. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211248 by rod-the-farmer on July 15, 2008 at 4:44 pm

Comment by Steve Zara

There are better ways to argue. We argue with them when they step out of line and try and change teaching in schools, or when then preach nonsense about gays. But to disrupt their meetings because they believe absurd stuff about bread is too much for me at least.

I would agree with you, if the individual in question had deliberately and publicly disturbed the meeting, as did the UK heckler at the service held by the gay bishop in very recent days. Now THAT was "disturbing a religious ceremony", and for that I thought he would be charged. But to fail to consume the cracker can hardly be called a disturbance. THAT became the operative word when some church members tried to detain him and rip the cracker from his hands. Once they did that, I am 100 % with him, and to quote Charlton Heston, they would have to pry it out of my cold, dead hands.

They have only themselves to blame here. What was a minuscule transgression of the ceremony escalated to a physical confrontation, if not quite an assault. And then to death threats to a person who was not even there, but reported the incident and how he planned to satirise the belief system of those who were the "first responders".

91. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211237 by rod-the-farmer on July 15, 2008 at 4:24 pm

Perhaps we should start a rumour that lapsed catholics all over the U.S. are planning to attend a local mass, and secretly kidnap the host crackers, so they can be desecrated later, off church property. Imagine the suspicion with which all communicants will be viewed during this part of the ceremony. Even if nothing happens, and no one does anything, it will be fun just to watch. And listen.

92. Ants, terrorism, and the awesome power of memes

Comment #210746 by rod-the-farmer on July 15, 2008 at 3:29 am

clearmind
The obvious answer to who made the Mona Lisa is the human artist who painted her. The next question you pose is "Who made you/me ?" The answer is, "My human parents". The difference between what/who made an object, and what made something alive, is that one sits there and does nothing, while the other strives to live, to grow, to reproduce. The weeds in my lawn are extraordinarily hard to exterminate, because they are programmed to try to stay alive. If I wanted to "kill" a painting, it has no power to resist me....into the burn barrel it goes. It does not, and cannot send seed spores into the wind, to grow new paintings somewhere nearby.

If the environment changes, the painting cannot react on its' own. That which is alive, will try to adapt, in order to keep living. 100 years from now (assuming the painting lasts that long, with no degradation of materials used) it will still be the same painting. A stray cosmic ray hitting the painting will cause no noticeable change. But if, during reproduction, a section of my DNA (or that of my wife) is either mis-copied slightly, or damaged by that same cosmic ray, our offspring may have changed slightly. The change is more likely to be detrimental that beneficial. But with lots of humans reproducing over long periods of time, some of those changes will be beneficial.

And with the enormous amounts of time available, living organisms will change, and sooner or later, into something quite different. And they keep changing. The painting just sits there.

93. Ants, terrorism, and the awesome power of memes

Comment #210372 by rod-the-farmer on July 14, 2008 at 11:44 am

Tell you what, clearmind. I have been warned against doing this in the past, but maybe I will give it a shot anyway. I will engage with a debate with you, on whatever topic you choose, with one proviso. Each of us can provide a statement in one sentence only. Nothing more than one. Our response to that one statement can only be three sentences. Hopefully this will clarify and focus the debate down to one topic at a time. We can debate either here, on a separate thread, or directly, using the RD Forum email, or if you provide your home email, I will provide mine.

94. Ants, terrorism, and the awesome power of memes

Comment #210182 by rod-the-farmer on July 14, 2008 at 4:09 am

clearmind

You understand, do you, that many of us find your comments unintelligible ? You may have a point, but your ability to explain it clearly is not very high. You jump around, making whatever point you think you have, difficult to see. The standard of debate on this site is quite high, but your contributions don't add much. Try thinking them through a bit more before posting.

95. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #209806 by rod-the-farmer on July 13, 2008 at 11:40 am

Giving away a semi-automatic rifle.....the mind boggles. Whatever happened to s jacket with a sport team logo ? Or maybe some music CD's, or a gift certificate for a clothing store ? And a CHURCH did this. What sort of kids did they think would be attracted to such an offer, that they would not reach with a chance to win a nice jacket ? And the only reason this did NOT happen was that a key person was unable to attend. Does this mean this sort of thing has gone on before, and it just never became public news ? Only in the Excited States of America.

Edit - What do you think would happen if this was an Amish gathering ?

96. France rejects Muslim woman over radical practice of Islam

Comment #209715 by rod-the-farmer on July 13, 2008 at 4:41 am

Muslim dating service - they are taking shots from all sides now, it appears.

http://www.motifake.com/index.php?start=11088

97. France rejects Muslim woman over radical practice of Islam

Comment #209702 by rod-the-farmer on July 13, 2008 at 3:53 am

Perhaps the court could have suggested a way for the husband to obtain citizenship for his wife. He could wear a burka for the same number of years, and the same hours of the day, as his wife. And if she were to stop immediately, he would have to continue until he had racked up the same number of hours she had already accumulated.

Seems fair to me.

98. Pope confirms sexual abuse apology

Comment #209700 by rod-the-farmer on July 13, 2008 at 3:31 am

"It is essential for the Church to reconcile, to prevent, to help and to see guilt in this problem,"

I do not see anything here, nor have I ever heard, on the use of the word "punish".

99. France rejects Muslim woman over radical practice of Islam

Comment #209613 by rod-the-farmer on July 12, 2008 at 7:56 pm

Re 48. Comment #209600 by lastgreekstanding

Je voudrais etre capable de parler entierement en francais, et on m'a dit que j'ai du bon accent, mai je manque de la pratique.

Please excuse my English keyboard. Typing accents is such a pain in Windows. (I speak a bit of German too.)

Edit - I only mentioned English areas of Canada, because I AM familiar with the scenario I described therein. I cannot speak with experience about French-speaking areas of Canada.

100. France rejects Muslim woman over radical practice of Islam

Comment #209504 by rod-the-farmer on July 12, 2008 at 1:00 pm

I wonder how many other countries have some sort of similar litmus test for becoming a citizen ? In Canada I think you have to pass a questionnaire about Canadian history, current events and such. I imagine you just go back to being a landed immigrant if you fail. I doubt ANY country would deport those who failed. I expect you can try again, like for a driving licence. I bet there are other things she cannot do, like run for office, get a job working for the government, etc.

In any case, the ruling has my support. The English areas of Canada have many people who came here as immigrants decades ago, but who still cannot (apparently) speak English, because they immersed themselves in cultural ghettos where they had no need to speak English. But it IS interesting that she (a) can speak French fluently, and (b) only began wearing the burka AFTER she came to France.