951. As Religious Strife Grows, Europe's Atheists Seize Pulpit

Comment #31927 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 15, 2007 at 12:56 am

I just can't imagine how you would propose to remove religion from Africa, without actively working to resolve its socio-economic problems, which are the very things you assert would be resolved simply by "removing" religion, as if it were a pivotal brick in a Jenga tower of human misery.

We actually have a case study ongoing in Ireland. As the republican south has become richer, religiosity in the South has decreased, and violence in the north has also fallen. By the late 90's the church was being challenged on every front, and the dam burst of the abuse scandals did further damage.

Luckily Ireland had spent several decades preparing a well educated society. Correlation? I'm pretty convinced, but it probably needs a proper study.

952. As Religious Strife Grows, Europe's Atheists Seize Pulpit

Comment #31921 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 15, 2007 at 12:31 am

I know you can find a study to support whatever. But this was a european study, so I hope that helps.

This is uncontroversial. We all know that per capita income in the total US is higher than the total EU. The key point is the numbers are skewed by the uberrich in the US.

On social indicators, even including the poorer accession countries, the EU is miles ahead, so much so that the top 10 best countries to live in the world are frequently all European.

Imagine if the US were suddenly to integrate Mexico into the federal system as a state? That would pull your per capita income down lickitisplit. Thats the equivalent of what the EU did in the eastern accession.

I think the US is a fine place too, but you really have some messed up social policies.

953. As Religious Strife Grows, Europe's Atheists Seize Pulpit

Comment #31822 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 14, 2007 at 12:54 pm

MIND_REBEL, To paraphrase denoir, you won't solve the worlds problems by removing religion - the best bet for removing religion is to solve the world's problems. Widespread secularism is a emergent property of modernity in the First World, not the other way around.

Yeah, I wanted to respond to that, but you guys seem to have summed it up nicely.

954. Coming out as atheist: Noel Gallagher & Gabriel Byrne

Comment #31817 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 14, 2007 at 12:29 pm

"2. Why the hell do people want "publicity" for atheism? That seems very silly to me... indeed, foolish. I don't want people "converting" to atheism for the wrong reasons, and I don't want people professing to be atheists for no good reason."

I don't care why they "convert", but I do want them to. When they pack in faith they :

a) Are no longer funding this rubbish.
b) Are no longer being swayed by "faith based" arguments.

Just a few days ago, some old fart told millions around the world that there was "another kind of reason", with which we could explore reality. Thats simply crap, and we should not sit idly by when it happens. Currently we have little choice.

Anything we can do to undercut and eliminate that and similar platforms is good.

955. As Religious Strife Grows, Europe's Atheists Seize Pulpit

Comment #31806 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 14, 2007 at 11:21 am

27. Comment #31805 by cheshirecat on April 14, 2007 at 11:13 am

No there needs to be a balance. Not just freetrade but fairtrade. Thats why US protectionism against poor markets is inexcuseable. The EU do it to some extent too.

I'll support you to the hilt on that. Both the US and EU agricultural lobbies exert disproportionate influence on policy making, and I actually think the EU may be worse on that front.

956. As Religious Strife Grows, Europe's Atheists Seize Pulpit

Comment #31794 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 14, 2007 at 10:18 am

However the GDP of America is higher than that of Britian and Ireland.

Actually ... Ireland now has a slightly higher per capita GDP than the US, and of course thats welcome. However social indicators, are a much more meaningful indicator, and the EU has this wrapped up.

All top 10 "best places to live" are European Countries, the US doesn't even make it into 10th place, that goes to Spain!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4020523.stm

957. As Religious Strife Grows, Europe's Atheists Seize Pulpit

Comment #31789 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 14, 2007 at 10:07 am

The most potent force driving activist atheism is concern that Islam, Europe's fastest-growing religion, is jeopardizing the principles of the Enlightenment -- and emboldening other religions to raise their voices, too, and re-fight old battles.

Thats it in a nut shell.

The USA is a land of extreme wealth and extreme poverty, sometimes in close proximity, extreme poverty however, is much more common than extreme wealth. I'll put it this way, if I had to choose a country to go broke in, I'd take a European one any day!

I'll echo this sentiment. The "religious" US is outperformed by the "atheist" EU in almost every social indicator you care to name,and thats lumbered with tens of million of new citizens from the eastern accession. Give me the EU, and atheist morality any day!!

958. For God's Sake

Comment #31642 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 13, 2007 at 3:27 pm

Sounds to me the US would benefit from a candidate that would simply refuse to endorse, discuss or otherwise entertain religion. Could be a runner after Bush.

959. For God's Sake

Comment #31627 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 13, 2007 at 2:34 pm

I will take good care to do nothing of the kind, for a God defined is a God dethroned. Again, every positive definition is deniable, the Infinite is the undefined

Canny ... you see the trap. Though how you can see it and still worship .... well whatever mysteriously undefined and indefensible creature you beleive in is the real mystery.

You don't have to be like me to be sane, and you wouldn't be the first to question my sanity:-) However, if God is nonsense, or at best meaningless to our lives, wouldn't you like to explore that possibility? Don't you think you owe it to yourself, or at the very least your children. If religion is total tripe, do you want to risk infecting your kids with it?

960. For God's Sake

Comment #31615 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 13, 2007 at 1:52 pm

I do find it mildly entertaining to visit sites like this (religious, political and/or philosophical – not to mention scientific; this site hits the mother load) and watch the pandering and posturing on matters that often times require the sacrifice of reason.

Pompous too. Nice:-)

I do believe in 'God' Mr. World Citizen….. if that makes me 'delusional' I guess I'm o.k. with that…….

Really? Wouldn't you prefer to be sane? Do you literally think you might be delusional, and just not care? Or do you think, we just think you're delusional, and you couldn't care less what we think? That might almost make sense.

By all means define your God, and lets have a look. Who knows, maybe you are actually worshiping the one true God, and will convince us of it? Be sure to define all the characteristics in explicit detail, plus how you know that this is so. Take your time, there's no rush:-)

961. For God's Sake

Comment #31605 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 13, 2007 at 1:01 pm

who or what will replace 'God' as justification for murder and war……? I just have this strange feeling that global acts of violence and war aren't going to disappear / or even dissipate with the absence of 'God'.

I could be wrong….. But I'm not going to get all fucking bent out of shape about it……

Let me point you to the Dogma lesson to clear this point up. Enjoy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYqWTgwVx9k

962. For God's Sake

Comment #31604 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 13, 2007 at 12:56 pm

I'm not talking about what YOU consider societies best interest; I'm talking about the collective interest of the 'group'.

Whats in the collective interest of "the group", as you so quaintly put it, is to be largely left to our own devices, unless we interfere with others.

I know it's 'in fashion' to call people who believe in 'God' crazy these days…..

Is it? By Christ, we are making progress:-)

to which I say; He who says there is no God, without having defined God in a complete and absolute manner, simply talks nonsense.

ROTFL. This is dumbest, most ingenous thing I've heard in months, and I've heard a lot!! It's not up to the Atheist to define your God for you, you lazy prick. You define it, and we'll knock it down:-) Thats how it works.

LOL .... Really:-) A new wrinkle, I sort of like it:-)

But I digress….. what we're talking about here is the supposed 'danger' of the Christian right….. Like I said before…… danger my ass.

You certainly DO digress. Only an idiot could fail to see the obvious danger of religious zealots of any stripe a few steps removed from the strings that control the most powerful nation state the world has ever seen. An idiot or a disingenous, and rather clever God botherer. I've got you firmly pegged as the latter:-)

963. For God's Sake

Comment #31590 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 13, 2007 at 11:43 am

Could one of you 'brighty bright naturalist' types explain to me what this supposed 'danger' is and why people (in general) should be afraid?

People in general, like to do what they want, with a minimum of interference from others. A secular government is the best garantor of that.

As to your other comments, if you are content to live in anarchy, kudos. Personally, I prefer my world more ordered, uniform and agreed ground rules, fairly applied to all. No God required.

964. For God's Sake

Comment #31552 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 13, 2007 at 8:24 am

For Gods sake!!! Can't we just leave Helian in peace?

965. T. rex tissue shows they are related to chickens

Comment #31516 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 13, 2007 at 4:46 am

Hi all ... my latest offering. This time on a controversial subject .... GW.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7v1c0smq-us

966. Einstein & Faith

Comment #31515 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 13, 2007 at 4:46 am

Hi all ... my latest offering. This time on a controversial subject .... GW.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7v1c0smq-us

967. The God Delusion is one of the Ten Best Audiobooks

Comment #31514 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 13, 2007 at 4:44 am

Hi all ... my latest offering. This time on a controversial subject .... GW.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7v1c0smq-us

968. Is God poison?

Comment #31390 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 12, 2007 at 9:10 am

Note, oh great movie director, that I did not "unilaterally" break the prevailing cease-fire, but was sorely provoked. The claims of my opponents on this thread that my comments constitute "torture," in violation of international law, are also greatly exaggerated.

Oh it's like THAT is it? Attack my Art (note the capital A) would you? Blaggard!!

Oh I don't know. I think my perspective is more realistic than yours on this particular front, but you're a clever chap, no argument, and that always gives me pause. Then so is Dawkins. Hah!! Trumped!

You're right of course:-) There is a certain level of hatred fueling the criticisim of the US, and that is not good. I'm guilty of it too from time to time.

However, it is tough to be utterly dispassionate when discussing the actions of the worlds most powerful nation state, arguably, the most powerful nation state that the world has ever seen, when those actions cause (pause for breath) tens of thousands of deaths.

I guess my point is that I see where you are coming from, and even agree with you in principle, but think your sympathies and energies would be better spent on those incapable of defending themselves, rather than those all too capable and willing to do so. But this is becoming a redux ...

969. Hey Mom, I'm an Atheist

Comment #31288 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 11, 2007 at 10:36 pm

112. Comment #31227 by cheshirecat on April 11, 2007 at 4:05 pm

There are plenty of things that are child abuse. While unpleasant I don't think this qualifies. The mother seemed even more upset than he did. not that her actions were excuseable but the incident may have done them both some emotional damage.

Oh no. We don't get to let this woman off the hook. If at some point the kid chooses to forgive her behaviour, that's his business and fair play to him. However, in the meantime he's the kid and shes the adult. She gets to carry the can.

Next you'll be telling us that a raped 10 year old is at least partially to blame for being so darn sweet. For fucks sake, wise up.

970. Is God poison?

Comment #31183 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 11, 2007 at 9:19 am

Oh Helian ... must you?

Guys, in many other respects, Helian is a sound sensible chap. However, he has an aggravating and irrational blind spot with regard to criticism of the US, characterising any hint of it as rabid demagogoury. This penchant does not appear amenable to reason, it's been tried, by Dawkins no less.

Best leave it alone.

971. Hey Mom, I'm an Atheist

Comment #31157 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 11, 2007 at 7:46 am

I stole this from some poster and pharngula, but it was too good to pass up.

"Isn't swearing a sin?"

I think that was the 10789th commandment, subpart 9, paragraph (j): "Thou shalt not say 'fuck', even when thy son perturb thee, for it maketh thee to look like an unhinged lunatic, yea and the heathens shall laugh at thy stupidity, thus saith the Lord."

-jcr

Posted by: John C. Randolph | April 11, 2007 06:53 AM

972. Hey Mom, I'm an Atheist

Comment #30984 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 10, 2007 at 2:02 pm

It's offical. I'm an internet addicted, attention seeking youtube vlogging whore. Had to respond to that video. I HAD TO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2IPGbu5zaA

973. Hey Mom, I'm an Atheist

Comment #30957 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 10, 2007 at 12:45 pm

21. Comment #30952 by simplemind on April 10, 2007 at 12:31 pm

i fail to see the interest of this. We know of the tug of war between kids and parents so whats the relevance here?

He's one of us being yelled out by one of them. Thats all the justification required to burn the bitch at the stake in some circles. We are merely engaging in a little justified critcism, so cut us some slack.

The mother is stressed and unable to communicate the son provoking a response and recording it.

You don't have the faintest idea what is going on here. Not enough to excuse the mothers visible actions, or to condemn the sons imaginary ones.

its hardly material thats endorsing for atheists. Maybe somone can convince me otherwise

It works for me and practically everyone commenting at the you tube segment, so yeah, sounds like you're a party of one. No change there then:-)

974. Hey Mom, I'm an Atheist

Comment #30956 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 10, 2007 at 12:36 pm

Some of us, however, do not see any reason to be apologetic or defensive about our beliefs (or lack thereof). Instead of berating this kid from a position of near-total ignorance, you ought to be encouraging him to feel free to express his personal beliefs without fear of reprisal.

In complete agreement with you on this. The child, this adolescent, was relativley calm in the face of his mothers anger. He tried to articulate why he had come to his conclusions but she interrupted him. Only when she grabbed his chair, leaned in and screamed into his face, did he raise his voice. Just watching the clip I could feel my own adrenaline surge, what must it take for a 15 year to remain rational, coherent and relativley calm in that situation?

I'd say on balance, and conscious that we have little to go on, the kid looks more like an adult than his mother, or his gutless wonder of a father.

975. Is God poison?

Comment #30906 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 10, 2007 at 9:36 am

You know what's interesting? The "moderate" atheists that used to argue that we needed to be more respectful, understanding and consider theology seem to have vanished.

Did they just get frightened off? Or change their minds? I had a few exchanges in the beginning about that kind of thing, but it's fairly unusual now. Any ideas?

976. Even non-believers must recognise the moral necessity of Christianity

Comment #30904 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 10, 2007 at 9:29 am

I remain convinced that even without the added destructive factor of religion, nationalism/patriotism is a definite long-term danger that humankind must eradicate ....

Amen to that:-) It's nationalism that allows Americans to feel comfortable with the idea of "Fighting them over there, so we don't have to fight them over here.". Regardless of it's actual truth or falsehood, it conveys an inevitable sense of, all things being equal, better an innocent dead Iraqi than an innocent dead American.

In fact some will read this, as blatant as it is, and happily endorse it with a clear conscience. Thats what we are up against:-(

977. Is God poison?

Comment #30895 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 10, 2007 at 9:02 am

My Jewish friends never told me the mohel (pronunced "moil") actually performed fellatio!

OH GOD!! I'd forgotten all about that!!! Geagggh ....

978. Is God poison?

Comment #30894 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 10, 2007 at 9:00 am

I think Richard used this quip as a kind of "second-hand" way to get back at Tyson who had confrontationally rebuked him.

Oh yeah ... it was subtle. You could take it as accepting the rebuke, or Richard basically telling Tyson to Fuck off. Ah the joys of multi layered language, and those that wield it well:-)

That said, I have to say I like Tyson. He's not sufficently reflective to a be a "Sagan Clone", too bubbly and enthusiastic for my cynical tastes, but he's pretty good nonetheless.

979. Is God poison?

Comment #30876 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 10, 2007 at 7:59 am

Did I miraculously become thick-skinned and insensitive just during my reading of his book

Not in the least. I've seen Richard in a lot of settings, and he invariable comes across as charming and interested. The one exception is perhaps the interview with Ted Haggard, and he can certainly be forgiven for loosing the rag on that occasion.

For creative and entertaining use of the word "Fuck", while in full concilitary mode, he gets full marks for this clip : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_2xGIwQfik

980. Is God poison?

Comment #30847 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 10, 2007 at 4:09 am

So, as I said, I don't get the point. Mr. Bethune seems to be angry at religious extremists, and he seems to be angry at 'radical atheists', but he somehow fails to make clear why exactly he's so angry at everybody. Can anyone eludicate?

Not really. I find myself cheering along and saying YEAH a couple of times during the article. The author reels off many of the major crimes of religion (and a number I was completely ignorant of!!), and then does a wierd little pirouette and is suddenly annoyed with the people pointing this stuff out??!! Huh?

The stuff about RD was ill informed, but otherwise s/he did a great job of reinforcing my conviction that religion IS poison. I mean that business with the Mohel eeeagggh, shudder, gahhhhh. Some doddering cleric sucking, sucking, the severed foreskin off a child's penis really doesn't need the added detail of herpes (JESSSSUS) to make me queasy. That freaked me right out:-(

I don't think we are loosing, but religion is trying to break back out of the box, we in the west agreed to put it in several hundred years ago, and that will not wash. Hence the significant annoyance on "our side".

981. Even non-believers must recognise the moral necessity of Christianity

Comment #30825 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 10, 2007 at 2:49 am

He was a true believer in a religion, Marxism

I know that!!! Hence MY video that I made MYSELF. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leYp24x_0Uo

Be nice, no need to gut me completely ....

982. Then Call it God

Comment #30820 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 10, 2007 at 1:58 am

However, every once in awhile, I do see some apprehensive worship of RD that does put me on my guard. Atheists are humans after all, and have it in their power to idolize anything without thinking including a plain-speaking, down-to-earth guy like RD.

Yeah, it really bears repeating. In fact, I've begun to wonder if we will actually see "atheist" extremists at some point. You know, blowing up churches or mosques. Could it happen? I have to say, I think so ... every broad based movement has its wings and wingnuts.

Crazy, prophet or heretic:-)?

983. Even non-believers must recognise the moral necessity of Christianity

Comment #30817 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 10, 2007 at 1:52 am

Thanks guys for the enouragement on the vid. I few youtube atheists have also commented on it.

It was a lot of fun and that "Stalin was an atheist and he killed lots of people meme" has been driving me nuts for the last few months at least.

In one respect, atheists have an easier task than theists. In order to deny the existence of God, it is only necessary to accept one proposition.

A few people have commented on the snippet above, and I missed it on the first pass, so I'll be brief. Occams razor?

984. Even non-believers must recognise the moral necessity of Christianity

Comment #30713 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 9, 2007 at 1:24 pm

Hi guys .... I've done it again. Be nice, I literally spent the whole damn day on this thing. Downloading software, installing, recording, splicing video and audio, tearing my hair out, cursing, calling on God. Finally, here it is ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leYp24x_0Uo

985. Praying for the Apocalypse

Comment #30711 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 9, 2007 at 1:23 pm

Hi guys .... I've done it again. Be nice, I literally spent the whole damn day on this thing. Downloading software, installing, recording, splicing video and audio, tearing my hair out, cursing, calling on God. Finally, here it is ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leYp24x_0Uo

986. Even non-believers must recognise the moral necessity of Christianity

Comment #30707 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 9, 2007 at 12:15 pm

57. Comment #30667 by Logicel on April 9, 2007 at 9:31 am

Fishpeddler, Cruel? At least Brian and I do not nuke cans of corn in the microwave for the pure pleasure of it!!!!!!!!

Actually ... I do ... sorry, it's a compulsion ... I need HELP!!

987. Even non-believers must recognise the moral necessity of Christianity

Comment #30636 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 9, 2007 at 5:08 am

This is the real world situation. The vocal atheists are such a small minority that there is little chance of defeating both the local irrationality (Christianity) and the imported irrationality (Islam) since we can expect no backing from our über-tolerant secular friends

No, this kind of woolly headedness must be rejected and it's dangerous.

Islam is an odious religious cult. No argument. But Islam does not represent anything approaching an existential threat to western civilisation, even in the EU. It will take generations of migration for islam to become the dominant religion, and it is unlikely that insane "taliban class" Islam will ever get a meaningful political hold in Europe.

This kind of talk is simply serving to whip people into hysteria about how the "muslims are coming, the muslims are coming!!!". It is factually wrong, it is morally disgraceful given the relative strengths of the parties, and it has the potential to result in thousands more deaths in Iran and Iraq, and if our western lunatic fringe has it's way, in millions of deaths in the middle east.

So cool your jets there pal, before your rethoric takes an eye out. The "menace of Islam" has been blown out of all meaningful proportion to the actual threat. We do not need to validate one set of absurd propositions to protect ourselves from another.

988. Even non-believers must recognise the moral necessity of Christianity

Comment #30606 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 9, 2007 at 2:21 am

"The terror of death will always drive our species to search for an alternative."
...and that, Ladies and Gentlemen, is pretty much game over and why it is difficult to see religion ever dying out.

Not if blindness, paralysis and similar conditions become rare to non-existent.

Not if we make "eternal life" medically feasible, or death unlikely (due to personality backups) or at the very least pushed into the far distant future. I'm not suggesting that any of this is likely soon, but in 500 years? Who could possibly say?

Personally I'm hoping for radical life extension in the next 50 ...., you know just another 30 years or so as a bridge to the next breakthrough. I reckon if I can hang on for another 100 years full body transplants should be all the rage:-)

989. Even non-believers must recognise the moral necessity of Christianity

Comment #30596 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 9, 2007 at 1:41 am

It was one of the most remarkable occurrences in history. Primitive tribesmen surged forth from the Arabian peninsula. Within 100 years, they had defeated the Byzantine and Persian empires. Only Charles Martel prevented them from overrunning Western Europe.

Sounds like the same pap trotted out about the success of Christianity, or SNAP Communism. My how it spread, with what speed and how we feared the domino effect.

Same shit different era. Humans surrender their fate to some higher power, be it God, Emperor or State, and commit all manner of barbarity in its name. Wake up and smell the coffee guys!!!! Dogma, belief in the self evidently false is the problem.

990. Even non-believers must recognise the moral necessity of Christianity

Comment #30594 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 9, 2007 at 1:35 am

In the benighted countries where an anti-religious system of belief was imposed with such totalitarian rigour that it became a pseudo-religion, horrors ensued.

And that is exactly the point. All religion is "pseudo-religion", because it's all self evident bullshit, and when men succumb to it's siren call of absolute certainty, whatever the dogma, they become beasts.

991. Prophets of the new atheism

Comment #30581 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 8, 2007 at 11:46 pm

Japan is not used as an example of religious extremism. Is it it because debate centres on the Abrahamic faiths? I am curious.

Good question. It's probably because we are generally responding to the claim that "atheism gone awry" has contributed to terrible suffering in the 20th century. Invariably Stalin is trotted out, although they are becoming more coy about mentioning Hitler, that has been slapped down so hard and so fast so often, that even they are getting the message.

Theists never bring Japan and the emperor up, because it's self evidently not atheist. Worse still, it uncomfortably joins the dots from killing for God invisible, to killing for God in human form, to killing for an acknowledged human with such absolute power, that he might just as well be God.

It highlights the common thread of slavish and unthinking adulation that binds all dogma, human or god focused, together. It makes explicit the obvious truth that human inhumanity requires people to surrender themselves to someone or something, to do a "Nurenberg", and thus abdicate their moral responsibilities to something greater than themselves. What, or who that happens to be is almost irrelevant, because the outcomes are invariably the same.

When you think about it, they'd be crazy to bring that up, but we certainly ought to.

992. Prophets of the new atheism

Comment #30578 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 8, 2007 at 9:54 pm

my 2 cents

I just finished this article : http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2003653502_klinghoffer06.html, and I really have to wonder about this comment : Such a wild caricature will be unrecognizable to any believer (like me) in the God of Israel. But Dawkins and Harris seem unfamiliar with religious tradition as biblical monotheists know it from personal experience and deep study.

Has this guy read the Bible? It is packed from cover to cover with God instructed genocide, ethnic cleansing and rape. His statement is a flat out lie. By all means respond to atheists, but lets not lie about the actual readily available content of the Bible, that just makes this author and your paper look like fools.

993. Answers To the Atheists

Comment #30518 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 8, 2007 at 10:02 am

Thanks for your offer, I really appreciate it, but internet speeds here are so damn lousy that it often takes me more than a minute just to upload comments such as this one. Perhaps we could converse by email instead?

coughlanbrianm@gmail.com there yah go. Hang in there. Outright denial may not be the best course of action in your situation, a gradual dilution of the worst excesses of your families brand of faith, firmly supported by the right scriptures might be more practical.

Attending a different, and more liberal church for some plausible scriptural difference might also be in order. Baby steps, you want to get them used to this without stressing the familial bonds too far.

994. Prophets of the new atheism

Comment #30512 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 8, 2007 at 9:27 am

The whole god thing really does give life a purpose, and a sense of community, religites are loath to surrender.

Does it though? What is the purpose of a Christian? To promote Christ in their lives? How many of them even do that effectivley? How is it materially different from us choosing to promote reason? Besides, after death what then? Worship God for eternity, while most of the humans that ever lived are tortured endlessly? What sane person, with even a molecule of empathy could spend eternity knowing that billions of fellow humans, perhaps members of their immediate family, were in present, immediate and endless agony? Would such a creature even be recognisably human?

The gloves really do need to come off. This is, in principle, what Christians have in mind when they say "meaning", they simply don't realise that this is the merciless logic of their faith. We need to present it in these stark terms.

995. Answers To the Atheists

Comment #30498 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 8, 2007 at 8:29 am

You see, they (my family and the congregation) doesn't know I'm a nontheist -- not yet. I'd be committing social and financial suicide to proclaim my lack of belief. Believe me, I've tried; judging by the amount of venom I had to take when I was only expressing doubt, they just might burn me at the stake if I confessed my lack of beliefs.

So, again....

Somebody... anybody... HELP ME!

Jesus, sounds bad. You need a local support network for sure, absent that feel free to give me a call on skype : briancoughlanworldcitizen to talk your situation through. I used to belong to a christian group, and I have gone through something similar.

996. Prophets of the new atheism

Comment #30496 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 8, 2007 at 8:21 am

Thanks logicel, I posted this in the comments section, but in case it doesn't show up :

Here yah go http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/17607

Title: Superstition In All Ages (1732)
Common Sense

Author: Jean Meslier

997. Prophets of the new atheism

Comment #30493 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 8, 2007 at 8:06 am

So, I think that neither side in the atheism/theism debate can really make a convincing case out of the Nazi/Communist examples, simply because dogmatism is not necessarily based on religion, nor on the rejection of it.

On the contrary, what one can say with absolute confidence about communist and nazi society is that they were deeply irrational and required "faith" in party "dogma", or some elevated and supreme leader to function, they required a rejection of self evident reality in favour of dogma to survive.

These societies did not suffer from an excess of rationality, they suffered from it's absence. From a relentless stream of irrational faith absent evidence, in a dogma that any objective observer could clearly see was disastrous. Yet to say so invited professional obscurity, and even death. Sound familiar?

Comparing these societies to religion is not conflation, it is putting them exactly where they belong. Religion and dogmatic irrational societies, are simply subsets of the same problem. They pull the same strings, leverage the same flaws and result in the same murderous purges. The only significant difference is the focus of adulation and slavish worship.

998. Prophets of the new atheism

Comment #30484 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 8, 2007 at 7:40 am

Roll, good press bad press, positive negative critcism, it all goes into the mix, and it's all appreciated:-) It's the facial hair .... I should have shaved right?

999. Answers To the Atheists

Comment #30475 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 8, 2007 at 6:36 am

The same stuff. We need to constantly counter these fluffy religious memes with our own cast iron one, which has and avalanche of evidence on it's side.

Atheists are, on average, more intelligent successful and well adjusted than theists. The more atheist a society is, the healthier it is in terms of crime and poverty.

This simply cannot be said often enough.

We also need to robustly reject the idea that societies undergoing upheaval and revolution are secular in any meaningful sense. Communisim, Nazism, and the Jacobins all fit neatly under the umbrella of religious dogma. Any system that has true beleivers, dogma and kills "heretics" co-opts all the flaws of humanity that religion does.

On another note, I have taken the plunge and begun to publish stuff on youtube, and I'd appreciate to know what people think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ib5PXu_w68

1000. Prophets of the new atheism

Comment #30473 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 8, 2007 at 6:35 am