Comments by decius

1051. Religion out of medicine, a new message for Ontario doctors

Comment #236008 by decius on August 24, 2008 at 2:58 am

Comment #236006 by Jesus86

Why do I have to repeat myself?

Because, in these premises, non-sequiturs are prone to be challenged.

1052. Why Dawkins is right and his critics are wrong

Comment #235990 by decius on August 24, 2008 at 2:11 am

Comment #235989 by Meadon

Not nearly enough.

Prof. Dawkins should call on you, and beg you on his knees. After all, he is the one who has been slandered, therefore he has to do the legwork.

Self-aggrandising git.

1053. Why Dawkins is right and his critics are wrong

Comment #235986 by decius on August 24, 2008 at 1:44 am

Comment #235978 by Fanusi Khiyal

Vermeer was, perhaps, the greatest painter who ever lived.

Not a chance.

TWP, welcome back.

1054. US school district sued over homophobic 'witch hunt'

Comment #235833 by decius on August 23, 2008 at 5:17 pm

Comment #235819 by hawt4dawk

HTML indeed.

not surprised to hear you like A'dam, for some reason. ;)

1055. A flea we missed?

Comment #235803 by decius on August 23, 2008 at 3:19 pm

Bien tornado, al.

El pescado tuyo esta de puta madre.

1056. US school district sued over homophobic 'witch hunt'

Comment #235801 by decius on August 23, 2008 at 3:11 pm

Hi hawt4dawk

I agree. The Enlightenment must be credited for having moved the moral zeitgeist away from such barbarous practices.

The work of Cesare Beccaria, in particular.

Of Crimes and Punishments

I am glad that you visited A'dam. I love that place.

1057. Why Dawkins is right and his critics are wrong

Comment #235618 by decius on August 23, 2008 at 9:26 am

Comment #235613 by Logicel

1058. Why Dawkins is right and his critics are wrong

Comment #235603 by decius on August 23, 2008 at 9:00 am

Comment #235584 by Mitchell Gilks

I agree.

It was meant more as a joke, though. The irrelevance of his comment persists whether he is a SP or a sycophant.

1059. Why Dawkins is right and his critics are wrong

Comment #235572 by decius on August 23, 2008 at 8:34 am

Comment #235546 by DrCogSci

Incidentally, at Decius, you're not doing the general tone of the conversation any favours by accusing those who don't agree with you of dishonest practices (Morphing/Sockpuppetry). How about DrJumpsToConclusions for your new moniker instead?

Well, you appeared in this thread out of nowhere, offering nothing but sycophancy and praise for an insulting idiot, whose theses are deprived of any intellectual value and are not supported by evidence and logic, trying to convince us all that he is in fact something different than the arse-clown that he appears to be.

My joke wasn't so far-fetched, after all.

1060. Kamikaze bacteria illustrate evolution of co-operation

Comment #235561 by decius on August 23, 2008 at 8:20 am

Don't feed the troll.

1061. US school district sued over homophobic 'witch hunt'

Comment #235536 by decius on August 23, 2008 at 7:41 am

Comment #235531 by hawt4dawk

I didn't see the series, but most people ignore that tarring and feathering resulted in permanent disfigurement and was often deadly.
Death might have occurred either due to heatstroke induced by skin insulation, or as a result of infection of the burns and wounds, since the tar was poured molten at high temperature.

1062. Why Dawkins is right and his critics are wrong

Comment #235468 by decius on August 23, 2008 at 5:30 am

Comment #235465 by Meadon

My point is, liberal, non-literalist religion is not incompatible with evolution or science

An unsubstantiated assertion for which you have failed to provide any evidence, or even to make a barely coherent case. As if the magic word "liberal" meant anything outside of your emotional attachment to it.

Your point is that you have no point, as that joke of a blog of yours demonstrates.

Take your disgraceful accusations, half-hearted apologies, total lack of scholarship, and ridiculous wishful thinking as far away from here as you can - they are all most unwelcome.

1063. A flea we missed?

Comment #235457 by decius on August 23, 2008 at 5:05 am

Comment #235455 by Steve Zara

And yet he says he is not a homophobe.

Wanting to have it both ways appears to be a distinctive feature of theologians, clergymen and bigots.
He belongs to all three categories, with various degrees of distinction.

You shouldn't be too surprised.

1064. Why Dawkins is right and his critics are wrong

Comment #235451 by decius on August 23, 2008 at 4:49 am

I want to change my moniker into DrSockPupt.

Josh, can you help?

1065. Sincerity no substitute for evidence

Comment #235443 by decius on August 23, 2008 at 4:19 am

Comment #235408 by NakedCelt

You didn't pay any attention, did you?

take echinacea as an immune booster over winter.

The absurd notion of "boosting one's immune system" has already been thoroughly debunked in this very thread. Links were provided also for your benefit.
Is promoting ignorance and superstition more important to you than doing some research?

Perhaps Echinacea has anti-bacterial properties. I don't know and I don't care. What it certainly does not is boosting your, or anybody else's, immune system.

I don't get colds the way I used to before I started.

Interesting! Do you have an agreed-upon yearly quota of infections? How does it work? Does the Germ Pool Committee inform you via registered letter, or do you pay a subscription for a guaranteed minimum of seasonal ailments?

t's worth noting that some treatments now fully absorbed into scientific medicine were discovered as traditional cures -- quinine as relief for the symptoms of malaria, for example.

It's worth noting that herbal efficacy was never disputed.
Keep on grasping at straw men and ignoring the real issues - namely, proper dosage and purity.

"big pharma" is not the conspiracy some make it out to be, I can't help thinking it's responsible for a little quackery here and there in its own right -- antibiotic treatments for viral infections stand out in particular.

DUH!

Some viral infections, including influenza, can weaken your mucosa or other defences, paving the way to concurrent bacterial infections.
When a particular viral strain is known to do so, antibiotics may and should be prescribed.

1066. A flea we missed?

Comment #235171 by decius on August 22, 2008 at 1:47 pm

Comment #235159 by irate_atheist

My experience with priestly double-talk suggests the fairy tale of the miracle most likely be a pre-emptive justification for an act of embezzlement of church funds, or some other felony - in case one someone might find something amiss.

1067. A flea we missed?

Comment #235142 by decius on August 22, 2008 at 1:23 pm

Comment #235119 by David A Robertson

you should at least make sure you understand what it is you are saying. Quote mining is when someone selectively takes quotes from people, out of context, in order to make accusations etc

Which is what you did with Paula Kirby's review of your book, feigning a positive response, when in fact she thrashed it.

Your duplicity truly disgusts me.

Where did you say that you derive your morals from?

1068. A flea we missed?

Comment #235139 by decius on August 22, 2008 at 1:13 pm

Comment #235119 by David A Robertson

I have never heard an argument against God by atheists which does not pre-suppose the non-existence of God.

Don't tell me that you don't know that EVERY scientific enquiry starts with a null hypothesis?

Seriously, get yourself a decent scientific and philosophical education, if that's the case.

1069. The rise of Miliband brings at last the prospect of an atheist prime minister

Comment #234552 by decius on August 21, 2008 at 2:44 pm

Comment #234546 by David A Robertson

Still waiting for an answer to the question

That's rich, coming from you.

1070. The rise of Miliband brings at last the prospect of an atheist prime minister

Comment #234526 by decius on August 21, 2008 at 1:54 pm

Comment #234523 by David A Robertson

The point is having someone, religious or not, more likely to subscribe to a secular agenda. An atheist is possibly more likely to do so.

A secular humanist agenda is just the opposite of Stalin's policies. Don't make us repeat why for the umpteenth time.

As a foreign observer, I couldn't help noticing the damage inflicted by knee-bending Blair in his eternal pandering to religious institutions and sectarian schools.

1071. The rise of Miliband brings at last the prospect of an atheist prime minister

Comment #234518 by decius on August 21, 2008 at 1:35 pm

Comment #234517 by clearthinker

Why don't you use the basic courtesy to post under a single moniker?

1072. Q&A with Richard Dawkins after lecture at UC Berkeley

Comment #234326 by decius on August 21, 2008 at 7:32 am

Comment #234315 by mitch_486

That partly depends on what education you have received.

The Ancestor's Tale
Climbing Mount Improbable
Unweaving the Rainbow
The Blind Watchmaker

by Richard Dawkins are all suited for the lay reader.

The Selfish Gene
The Extended Phenotype

are a bit more technical.

1073. Sincerity no substitute for evidence

Comment #234316 by decius on August 21, 2008 at 7:16 am

Comment #234302 by hungarianelephant

You may have a point, there. My quarrel is essentially with quackery.
I have nothing in principle against a model as you describe, as long as its efficacy and cost-effectiveness are proven, and no human resources are misplaced.

1074. Religion out of medicine, a new message for Ontario doctors

Comment #234289 by decius on August 21, 2008 at 5:12 am

Comment #233220 by Jesus86

Examine your faith, my friends!

Just wanted to emphasize, in case anyone missed it.

1075. Sincerity no substitute for evidence

Comment #234282 by decius on August 21, 2008 at 4:35 am

Comment #234262 by hungarianelephant

It's generally acknowledged that there might be some positive effect from the nature of the consultation itself.

You are describing another aspect of placebo:

"placebo response is a therapeutic or healing effect of an inert medicine or ineffective therapy, or more generally is the psychosocial aspect of every medical treatment"

It has already been investigated, its mechanisms are well known. It is already used by some practitioners without much publicity.

The ultimate aim is not to provide ourselves with a lovely little clockwork model of the human body. It is the promotion of public health. If this can be furthered by stealing useful techniques from CAM, even if they work by a placebo effect, then surely that is a good use of public money.

I disagree, and so does the medical establishment. Longer consultations often cost more to the health services than effective treatments, and do not guarantee a positive outcome. There is also the moral dilemma of "conning" the patient.
The aim is eventually to provide the best treatment available and placebo never is.

1076. Sincerity no substitute for evidence

Comment #233955 by decius on August 20, 2008 at 4:29 pm

Comment #233953 by AtheistRamblings

You clearly haven't got a clue of what you are talking about, sorry.

1077. Sincerity no substitute for evidence

Comment #233946 by decius on August 20, 2008 at 4:18 pm

Comment #233916 by kaiserkriss

where for some reason the "woo-woo" treatment worked, after experiencing nothing but failure with several conventional doctors.

You can't be sure - may be the conventional treatments began to work at the same time when you approached the quack. Or perhaps the condition naturally healed.
This is the fallacy that I was describing earlier, and the reason why anecdotes do not carry much weight in evidence-based medicine, and in science at large.

On the other hand taking that famous quote "that everything worth inventing has been invented" in this situation and NOT being open to new ideas, however crazy they may seem, is in my opinion just as narrow minded as the Author of the above quote. We constantly need new ideas to test and move forward. It is part of the scientific process.

I agree, but study after study have been returning negative results for decades, and yet the CAM crowd keep on demanding more and more vain expensive research, while they can't even indicate a plausible mechanism for the effects that they ~~describe~~ make up.

Similar claims are continuously made about the paranormal, and scientific scepticism must treat all claims equally, without wishful thinking getting on the way.

1078. Sincerity no substitute for evidence

Comment #233828 by decius on August 20, 2008 at 12:51 pm

Comment #233798 by kaiserkriss

So we should take your anecdotal evidence, together with your post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy, at face value.

Unfortunately many Doctors trained in the traditional medical schools won't go out of their way and actually do proper research on the subject that can substantiate or refute the claims.

And you seem to ignore that an enormous body of research has been done.
How long do we have to flog a dead horse for, and waste public money into investigating pseudo-science and quackery?

ARTICLE

1079. Sincerity no substitute for evidence

Comment #233811 by decius on August 20, 2008 at 12:31 pm

Comment #233766 by Bonzai

In the context I used it, I find the analogy quite appropriate. Since you claim it is a false analogy, maybe you can tell me why

The context was a claim of efficacy. Gunpowder will always and immediately blast when ignited, a compass will always point north. This circumstance makes empirical testing, as well as repeatability, easy and incontrovertible. The only drugs which can be similarly tested are powerful psychotropic substances and poisonous alkaloids.
Those deemed to be curative require double-blind tests and large samples. Most conditions will heal by themselves, etc.

you are also exaggerating the problem by ignoring that many traditional herbs have been used for thousands of years.

Argumentum ad antiquitatem, or appeal to tradition. A worthless line of reasoning.

For thousands of years people have thought blood-letting and Hippocratic Humoural Theory valid medical notions. They were deadly wrong.

If people could figure out how to make steel and build big ships without knowing modern fluid mechanics, engineering science and material science, I wouldn't find it too surprising that they could figure out the medical properties of a few herbs.

Again the same false analogy.

I already granted the efficacy of herbs. You can chemically synthesise the active principle, as it's normally done with truly effective herbs (think about aspirin), and get rid of dosage and purity problems.

That is a very bold statement as we know that life expectancy is not just related to medical technology. Such a reductionistic approach would be considered quite unscientific even in the Public Health Departments of major universities. It is common knowledge that there other factors such as diet and nutrition, level of overall development, living conditions

Granted. There should still be a measurable difference, given that much of the increased life expectancy can be directly related to the effectiveness in fighting and eradicating disease.

So, I repeat my challenge. You claim that Chinese medicine is effective, show any statistical positive impact that it had when western medicine wasn't around, in a fair comparison. No difference at all would only mean no efficacy.

But I also think that you are a bit simplistic and dogmatic in your idealization of it and your categorical dismissal of anything that may not fit within its paradigm.

Oh boy, where did I hear this one before?

All I am asking for is some fucking evidence.

1080. A flea we missed?

Comment #233774 by decius on August 20, 2008 at 11:51 am

Comment #233756 by Oystein Elgaroy

I had to look the episode up.

My question is, was it even a crime?
It looks to me as if they were being extorted mafia-style, and ended up likewise punished for failing to pay up.

1081. A flea we missed?

Comment #233734 by decius on August 20, 2008 at 11:02 am

Comment #233653 by Cartomancer

Let's give Robertson the Dimwit a practical example.

Correct me if it isn't pertinent to what you said.

Svetonius provides us with detailed biographical accounts of the life of Augustus, among other emperors. Historian cross-check with other sources and archaeological evidence to weed out legend and gossip from fact.

To dismiss the passage here quoted, they needn't do anything of the sort. Materialistic and atheistic assumptions immediately allow the good historian to recognise this as rubbish:

Later, when Octavius (Augustus's father) was leading an army through remote parts of Thrace, and in the grove of Father Liber consulted the priests about his son with barbarian rites, they made the same prediction; since such a pillar of flame sprang forth from the wine that was poured over the altar, that it rose above the temple roof and mounted to the very sky, and such an omen had befallen no one save Alexander the Great when he offered sacrifice at the same altar. Moreover, the very next night he dreamt that his son appeared to him in a guise more majestic than that of mortal man, with the thunderbolt, sceptre, and insignia of Jupiter Optimus Maximus, wearing a crown begirt with rays and mounted upon a laurel-wreathed chariot drawn by twelve horses of surpassing whiteness.

1082. A flea we missed?

Comment #233722 by decius on August 20, 2008 at 10:27 am

Comment #233712 by JAMCAM87

I guess you are going to say "I told you so."

I told you so.

Congratulations all the same.

1083. Sincerity no substitute for evidence

Comment #233709 by decius on August 20, 2008 at 10:01 am

But what about Chinese medicine?

Well, Bonzai, while we are at it, let's put to rest this further superstition, shall we?

First of all, gunpowder and compass represent a false analogy with medicine. I am sure that you can see it for yourself.

Chinese medicine, like all ancient medicine, relies heavily on herbs. Some are effective, some are not. The problems with herbal care have already been highlighted.
In short, for one effective alkaloid ingested through herbal remedies, you end up taking twenty more - some beneficial, some useless, some outright dangerous. Furthermore, it is very difficult to provide an effective dosage, as different specimen and varieties of the same plant yield different amounts of active principle. Different types of soil directly and rather unpredictably influence the effectiveness of a herb.

Evidence-based medicine has more than doubled life expectancy during the past century.
If Chinese medicine actually represented a valid alternative to western medicine, we could predict longer life expectancy in China before the formulation of the Germ Theory of Disease.

Here is my challenge to you: please, provide evidence for a longer life expectancy in China in the beginning of the last century, compared to European figures.

1084. Sincerity no substitute for evidence

Comment #233686 by decius on August 20, 2008 at 9:18 am

Comment #233618 by notsobad

Strengthening your immune system with herbs is a good practice though.

I won't challenge, for lack of time, all the anti-scientific notions that, sadly, have been put forward by several posters, here.
All I can say to those who mistrust "big pharma", and evidence-based medicine on the basis of anecdotes of malpractice, is that they should look at the wider picture, and how the system, far from being perfect, is a self-correcting one.

Also, failures in evidence-based medicine do not automatically validate CAM. It's the same fallacy into which cretinists engage when they attempt to poke holes into evolutionary theory, as if that would make cretinism true.

However, the egregiously unfounded comment that I quoted is a dangerous one to make.
It implies a complete misunderstanding of how the immune system works and has evolved. It also opens the door to some of the worst quackery on the market.

Notsobad, I refer you to this article, among many others that you can find for yourself.
Your immune system cannot be boosted with supplements, cure yourself from that dangerous delusion.

ARTICLE

1085. A flea we missed?

Comment #233568 by decius on August 20, 2008 at 3:50 am

Comment #233334 by 35bluejacket

Don't worry, it is extremely easy to fall for it. In fact, that's the point.

Comment #233483 by David A Robertson

What can one expect from a site where Landrover Baptist is used to make a killer point!

David, do you find any meaningful difference between Landover Baptist and Westoboro Baptist?

The latter is no joke.

1086. A flea we missed?

Comment #233326 by decius on August 19, 2008 at 5:02 pm

Comment #233310 by 35bluejacket

Landover Baptist is a well-known spoof, although everybody is supposed to pretend that it's for real.

Check out Poe's Law

1087. A flea we missed?

Comment #233272 by decius on August 19, 2008 at 3:29 pm

Comment #233251 by NMcC

Thanks for your reply and kindness.

I submitted that link to you because I consider that example as the best factual refutation to those christian objections.
However, given your propensity for granting the historicity of Jesus the man, at the light of the same example, you may want to ponder that a real person isn't needed to jump-start a cult around a name.
Prophecy, myth, and a set of rituals are perfectly sufficient. Promises of immense rewards (supernatural or material), will greatly help to attract acolytes and believers.

Josephus is one of those authors whom I am not acquainted to, because he develops his themes from a perspective that I find uninteresting.

Therefore, I go with the scholarly consensus, that declares those passages anything between a forgery and a series of later interpolations. Stylistic considerations and demonstrable anachronism have consolidated this opinion.
Eusebius has been famously named as the forger.

I couldn't resist looking up this quote by bishop Warburton, who wrote in 1759 of the Testamentum Flavianum

A rank forgery, and a very stupid one, too

Keep in mind that, even in the opposite camp, no one has had the audacity to argue in favour of the total authenticity of the passages - a minority of scholars claim some rather meaningless bits to be partially genuine.

I will look up the part about the Antiquities and the alleged brother of Jesus, because I don't recall much, as we speak.

1088. A flea we missed?

Comment #233243 by decius on August 19, 2008 at 1:26 pm

Comment #233240 by Philip1978

his hatred of atheism and gay people alone smacks of a desire to keep it all in the whole "polluted because they haven't found Jesus" light.

A very odd proposition. The worship of an icon depicting a bleeding naked male corpse hanging from an ancient instrument of torture only seems to add elements of sadism and necrophilia to the pre-existing homosexuality.

1089. A flea we missed?

Comment #233230 by decius on August 19, 2008 at 12:21 pm

Comment #233086 by NMcC

I am one of those atheists who holds the view that the Jesus of the Christian religion was a real historical person. I think the evidence (in as much as it can be called 'evidence') points to the likelihood that, Chinese Whispers fashion, his 'biography' was passed on orally, before finally being written down as hagiography for the first time some 40 years later by the unknown 'Mark'.

As I understand the Christian response to this claim, it is that 40 years is too short a time lapse for legend to form and that the early Christian claims concerning Jesus must therefore be true.

To such Christians, and to you, here is a perfect example of a mythological figure arising in an even shorter time.

LINK

1090. A flea we missed?

Comment #232786 by decius on August 18, 2008 at 3:24 pm

Comment #232777 by Steve Zara

I find it quite amusing to see the same discussions about the protocols and manners of posting going on now as I saw on usenet in the early 90s!

Yes, totally redundant.

1091. A flea we missed?

Comment #232769 by decius on August 18, 2008 at 3:05 pm

Comment #232755 by JAMCAM87

You confuse categories. Expletives have literary value and scurrilous language is acceptable when not gratuitous and in extremely poor taste.

A tiny minority of self-conceited visitors unfamiliar with the ways of internet may indeed leave on account of colourful language. So what?

1092. A flea we missed?

Comment #232757 by decius on August 18, 2008 at 2:58 pm

Comment #232754 by phatbat

swear words shouldn't be treated as somehow demonstrative of a limited vocabulary as David often suggests

Ahem. I suggest you read some Pinker. Actually, no, just watch this lecture.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBpetDxIEMU

Finding yourself in agreement with Robertson should be great cause of concern, btw.

1093. A flea we missed?

Comment #232747 by decius on August 18, 2008 at 2:47 pm

Comment #232741 by JAMCAM87

If Hitler posted on this site I would not speak to him using foul language.

Fine, that's your style and no one will object to it. Don't presume to tell others how they should express themselves when faced with dishonesty and fundamentalism, though.
My experience also suggests that this is a place where one comes to learn, not to teach.

1094. A flea we missed?

Comment #232736 by decius on August 18, 2008 at 2:40 pm

Comment #232728 by JAMCAM87

My friend, you are mistaken, there. Robertson deserves no sympathy. He wasn't indoctrinated, he is the indoctrinator, and this is only a marginal reason. You will find out on your own, sooner or later. No doubt about it.

1095. A flea we missed?

Comment #232701 by decius on August 18, 2008 at 2:00 pm

Sorry to interrupt with an OT.

Did those of you who watched the Hitchens/Prager/D'Souza calamitous debate notice that the latter has considerably polished his manners, renounced a huge amount of pseudo-scientific arguments, and even lowered the pitch of his squawking?

I wonder who is coaching him.

1096. A flea we missed?

Comment #232452 by decius on August 18, 2008 at 6:29 am

Comment #232448 by Cartomancer

Standing ovation.

1097. A flea we missed?

Comment #232449 by decius on August 18, 2008 at 6:20 am

Coretemprising,

Thanks for you concern.

I took the liberty to go through your personal contribution to the "intelligent conversation". It appears to amount to approximately fifty posts over a period of a year and four months, many of which relate aspects of your personal life.

Constructive criticism is always welcome, and much more so are comments of any substance.

1098. A flea we missed?

Comment #232360 by decius on August 18, 2008 at 2:15 am

Comment #232350 by David A Robertson