1151. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #257297 by Wosret on September 30, 2008 at 9:42 am

I'm not effected by this really, because Fanusi has never held any credibility with me to begin with.

I'm ignorant of most things. So if I get into a discussion of politics, history, economics, geography, or things like that, I probably know less than a forth grader. For this reason I almost always only focus on reasoning, I hardly ever call into question the information I'm presented with, unless it seems wildly unlikely. Everyone seems to praise him on his knowledge of the topic, but denounce his conclusions. Since I don't consider the ability to repeat things you've read or heard with accuracy especially impressive, all I've seen is absurd lines of reasoning being wrangled out of that information.

I agree with the thrust of what Al is saying (must have a brain tumor), that Fanusi's posts should be judged on their own merits, and not dismissed because you don't like some of his views. The his information, or reasoning.

I also agree however, that holding revoltingly wrong, and horrifically offensive view points is detrimental to one's credibility, and is enough not only to ignore them, knowing that whether they make decent points about something, or poor ones about others, their motives are to rationalize the conclusions they have already reached, the disgusting and offensive conclusions, and thus should be marked as offensive, and a troll. That is why the feature is there.

I just should remind everyone that this has not been established about Fanusi, so comparisons with the KKK and so forth are unjustified. The line of reasoning, although I agree is correct, is inapplicable to Fanusi, as things currently stand.

1152. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #257236 by Wosret on September 30, 2008 at 8:24 am

3934. Comment #257235 by Peacebeuponme

I'm lookin' forward to the October second debate. Biden is a goof, but he's still going to mop the floor with that clown. He could just stand there and smile, as she loses the debate by simply talking.

1153. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #257205 by Wosret on September 30, 2008 at 7:43 am

3908. Comment #257200 by Mark Jones

Yes, clearly the "enter" key. (*knocks head*).

1154. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #257197 by Wosret on September 30, 2008 at 7:38 am

3901. Comment #257190 by al-rawandi

A common retort for anti-semites is "Well I know a couple Jews." Or LF's "I play in a band with Jews".

1155. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #257189 by Wosret on September 30, 2008 at 7:30 am

3886. Comment #257167 by Laurie Fraser

I find pacifism immoral. Maybe no less than my own philosophy -- cowardice, but inaction is still a type of action, which holds consequences as well. Many of which can be dire.

3896. Comment #257183 by al-rawandi

I find you guilty of almost everything you blame others for.

1) vitriol? Check
2) judgmental moralizing? Check
3) Telling people to shut up/fuck off/ leave? Check.

You know, when you point fingers Al, three fingers are always pointing back. d(^_-)b

3898. Comment #257186 by Peacebeuponme

I know, right? His space bar must feel victimized.

1156. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #257104 by Wosret on September 30, 2008 at 4:21 am

Laurie Fraser, it was clear to me that Al was merely trying to pick someone out and wage bullshit accusations towards them because that is what he saw happening to Fanusi. I thought that Al clearly meant everyone to notice that his accusations were bullshit, so he could teach you'all a lesson.

So, I didn't think that it warranted acknowledgment.

1157. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #257097 by Wosret on September 30, 2008 at 4:07 am

3848. Comment #256995 by Steve Zara

I think what you suggest is unfair, and unjust. You appear to be saying that you'd rather he'd leave or to use the "troll" and "offensive" buttons because this would be easier than refuting his posts every time, and because he has got a thick head.

None of that actually makes him a troll or offensive. I think that marking him as such because you don't want people to see his repeated, and unyielding post, or Darwin forbid, convince anyone, and don't want to spend the time engaging him over it is an abuse of the feature.

Your reasons then are not because he is a troll or offensive, but for other reasons.

1158. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256931 by Wosret on September 29, 2008 at 6:46 pm

I'm against Fanusi Khiyal leaving.

I don't particularly like him, or even pay attention to him for the most part, and I have been vocal about the fact that I think he's crazy.

He shows profound naivety, and shallowness of comprehension of people, and the implications of what they say, and the policies they espouse. He willingly associates with hate spewing racist thugs, and apologize for them, as "only rants" that they don't really mean.

He has however, (to my knowledge) not said anything I find offensive (to anything other than my commonsense, and rational faculties), nor has he done anything criminal, or otherwise worthy of this spectacle.

I think he really needs to think deeply about what those hate speeches mean, and the gravity and implications of the language and graphic concepts they so venomously construct. He needs to consider that they should not just be insulting to the races they speak of as subhuman, but to any decent and intelligent person.

I am however not willing to tell him to shut up. Not based on what has been uncovered about him, and not based on anything he has said. I will not partake, or take seriously any unsupported speculations about his motives, or his aims for visiting this site, and even if I did, thinking that he holds offensive, and disturbing views does not automatically make his contributions offensive and disturbing.

I personally think that this has escalated unreasonably far. You can attack his character, and find him objectionable, and tell him he's a horrid human being, but your personal dislike of him is not license to tell him to shut up and leave, or to deem him offensive, and a troll in all circumstances of his appearance, regardless.

I think that a defense of his character is unnecessary (unless he would like to convince those that think so, that he is not a horrid person) uncalled for, and a sorry excuse to tell him he has to shut up and leave.

You're always free to ignore him. I for one would be disappointed in anyone that even suggests that he ought to leave over this.

1159. 'God as Science Fiction'. Richard Dawkins at the Edinburgh Book Festival

Comment #256746 by Wosret on September 29, 2008 at 1:11 pm

You both make good points.

1160. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256736 by Wosret on September 29, 2008 at 12:57 pm

I think you guys are making an awfully big deal out of this. I'm glad we're not the crew on a submarine or anything...I'd start to get worried.

1161. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256720 by Wosret on September 29, 2008 at 12:22 pm

3679. Comment #256717 by hawt4dawk

Finally, "liberals" whom you seem to so despise, far from [just] being ridiculous people who like to dance around in costumes with gay people, fight and die for security and freedom in the millions.

1162. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256665 by Wosret on September 29, 2008 at 10:05 am

3657. Comment #256656 by GoatBoy36

That's silly and disingenuous. I'm not hanging out there, and having friendly discussions with its members. Clearly our situations are different.

1163. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256653 by Wosret on September 29, 2008 at 9:56 am

3651. Comment #256649 by Fanusi Khiyal

No, it's not a group. Anymore than not believing in fairies is a group.

1164. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256648 by Wosret on September 29, 2008 at 9:52 am

3640. Comment #256637 by Fanusi Khiyal

Atheism, nor Darwinism are groups.

1165. The God Delusion's cameo in season premiere of 'Family Guy'

Comment #256628 by Wosret on September 29, 2008 at 9:35 am

I doesn't mention the most important part. Brian says that he is an atheist. I mean, it was clear from before. He has called the bible a book of fairytales and such, but this was the first time he outright said he was an atheist.

1166. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256621 by Wosret on September 29, 2008 at 9:28 am

3620. Comment #256607 by decius

Yes, Hanlon's Razor came to mind for me pretty quickly. I've long thought that he just does not appreciate the gravity of what he is saying.

It also just appears to me that he doesn't appreciate the gravity of what others say either.

1167. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256603 by Wosret on September 29, 2008 at 9:17 am

3609. Comment #256592 by al-rawandi

Although I'm troubled by the idea of association with such people at all I am still on the fence about this...but, I thought I'd just comment to say how comically ironic I think your post is. You do realize that you are moralizing about moralizing?

1168. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256553 by Wosret on September 29, 2008 at 8:26 am

3575. Comment #256549 by Fanusi Khiyal

Steve never said that quote was. He said that it was an incitement to violence. I've only seen anyone refer to the first comment posted as racist.

1169. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256548 by Wosret on September 29, 2008 at 8:23 am

3569. Comment #256543 by Fanusi Khiyal

what, exactly, is "racist" there?

1170. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256539 by Wosret on September 29, 2008 at 8:14 am

I also agree with Sciros (first time for everything). I didn't know the context, but even without it I found the denunciation lame, now that I do, I agree that it was in extremely bad taste.

I think Steve is right that that was not the major point though. His only response to such a person was a "thank you".

1171. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256510 by Wosret on September 29, 2008 at 7:37 am

3543. Comment #256507 by Laurie Fraser

"LT Crd" is how you abbreviate "Lieutenant Commander"

1172. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256504 by Wosret on September 29, 2008 at 7:28 am

Also, I should point out that an ad hominem is only invalid if it isn't relevant to what is being discussed. I think that hatred, and racism towards the group one is discussing taking action towards very much is relevant to the subject.

It may not in itself invalidate what was said, but it isn't irrelevant either.

Now I'm not calling him a racist, or saying that he hate muslims, but I believe that is what is attempting to be established, so I think that it is relevant. If it can be established, I think that it will speak towards his motivations, and cast doubt on his sincerity with respect to any restraint or evenhandedness he may assert.

1173. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256490 by Wosret on September 29, 2008 at 7:14 am

3514. Comment #256469 by Titania

Yike! The vitriol, the venom, the acidic permeating hatred. I can't believe that someone would willingly associate with such a racist lunatic.

1174. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256443 by Wosret on September 29, 2008 at 6:30 am

3498. Comment #256442 by Laurie Fraser

http://www.urbandictionary.com/

This will answer all.

1175. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256434 by Wosret on September 29, 2008 at 6:17 am

3487. Comment #256430 by Serdan

Oh it certainly isn't absolutely necessary. Merely currently necessary. Any disagreement you have with the laws or the way things are done will not change them. It still remains true that without some form of civil union, those rights are denied to you, as things currently are now. Whether you and I agree with it or not.

Though, I do think that some form of civil union should be necessary, as it is a contract, of which I think should be required before many of those legal rights should be granted to you, but that is a long and exhaustive discussion for another time.

1176. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256421 by Wosret on September 29, 2008 at 5:56 am

3477. Comment #256416 by Fanusi Khiyal

Not nearly as good as the series.

Well, in my original comment I specified "by Miyazaki Hayao". So I assumed that is what you were referring to.

I'm still waiting on "Ponyo on the Cliff by the Sea" to come out. My Japanese is sadly not nearly good enough to watch it raw...so I have to wait for english sub...so lame.

1177. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256418 by Wosret on September 29, 2008 at 5:51 am

3476. Comment #256414 by Serdan

About 1,400 legal benefits are allotted to couples upon marriage in the US. There is like a hundred pages worth, if one cared to read it. I suggest you google "legal rights allotted to married couples" or something around those lines to read some of them.

1178. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256413 by Wosret on September 29, 2008 at 5:43 am

3474. Comment #256410 by Serdan

Because there are legal and social benefits that would not be allotted to us otherwise.

1179. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256404 by Wosret on September 29, 2008 at 5:35 am

3464. Comment #256399 by Peacebeuponme

Although I may attract some ire, I sort of hold your view. I would definitely, and without a doubt vote "yes", but personally I think the institution of marriage has been hi-jacked by the religious, and I'd rather some form of civil secular union, with absolutely no religious involvement for myself. Though not all homosexuals are religion hatin' atheists like me, so I wouldn't behave in a way to limit what they can do based on what I'd rather do.

1180. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256396 by Wosret on September 29, 2008 at 5:28 am

3453. Comment #256386 by Fanusi Khiyal

I did answer your post about that actually.

Keep me entertained with the little stuff? I am easily distracted. Anything fluffy, frilly, fury, pink, purple, shiny, cute, and with big eyes, and I'm entranced for quite some time.

Seems to betray my saying that I liked Mononoke better, but sometimes I do opt for the one with the better story and plot.

1181. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256383 by Wosret on September 29, 2008 at 5:19 am

Even though "if gay marriage is decriminalized polygamy is next" is not an argument at all, but an unexplained assertion, I'm not sure how I feel about it.

I think that a case is to be made that it is an inherently unequal contract, with an unequal power distribution. I also tend to not like it, because it's not romantic. Though, the latter objection is not an intellectual one, so is irrelevant.

I'd need to hear some good arguments for and against it, but currently I sway to being against it.

1182. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256365 by Wosret on September 29, 2008 at 5:00 am

3435. Comment #256359 by Fanusi Khiyal

The point of that was, if you were to ask me to list the Jewish contribution to humanity, I could rattle off a nigh endless list of first-rate minds, and inventions.

You also launch into a long and extremely idiotic commentary on my views, ignoring everything I've written on this. I've said what I advocate, and you are skipping over it. Seriously, what's the point here?

1183. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256349 by Wosret on September 29, 2008 at 4:49 am

3419. Comment #256336 by Fanusi Khiyal

Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

Oh, they're fine with it in general - it's just when you actually use that specific people get angry and huffy.

1184. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256333 by Wosret on September 29, 2008 at 4:27 am

3411. Comment #256324 by Fanusi Khiyal

I was pointing out that you can, in fact, make generalizations and predictions of large groups of peoples.

"Muslims as a group have very few individuals that have contributed...".

1185. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256316 by Wosret on September 29, 2008 at 4:15 am

3401. Comment #256308 by Fanusi Khiyal

Your reasoning hurts my brain. I thought that I knew what you were saying until you mentioned predictions by Nietzsche...it almost seemed as if you were saying "hey, look, someone made predictions and they came true, that makes me right in mine!" but of course that would be absurd, so you can't be saying that...so I don't understand what you meant by that.

One, I disagree with your basic premise, that groups contribute, opposed to individuals. I didn't contribute anything to the world, and I definitely don't feel in any place to claim credit for anyone else's achievements. I've always found that concept strange.

I agree with two, but I don't consider Islam and muslims the same thing.

Three, suicide...no, the dismemberment and disfigurement of our values, ideas, and our hard fought principles seems to be the price instead. I'll pay neither.

1186. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256298 by Wosret on September 29, 2008 at 3:43 am

3395. Comment #256295 by Fanusi Khiyal

Are all behaviors you deem negative inherently muslim?

1187. Debate: Would We Be Better Off Without Religion?

Comment #256165 by Wosret on September 28, 2008 at 8:09 pm

112. Comment #256157 by Amnis73

I think you need to go read through our exchange again. I replied to you, and said that they were "analogous" not the same. You disagreed with this.

The quote is what I was referring to. I explained that he was using art as an analogy, which I continue to contend is not only a coherent one, but I think an excellent one.

I don't know why you keep asking my permission to exit the discussion, I'm not twisting your arm, and forcing you to reply, if you think it is empty/stupid, then feel free to "move on".

1188. Why There Almost Certainly Is a God, By Keith Ward

Comment #256161 by Wosret on September 28, 2008 at 7:58 pm

I read through all (and by this I mean some) of the comments carefully, but it seems that I'm the only one who doesn't understand the question.

I guess I'm just slow.

1189. Debate: Would We Be Better Off Without Religion?

Comment #256150 by Wosret on September 28, 2008 at 7:41 pm

107. Comment #256144 by Amnis73

Sigh...I said "I didn't say look up the word because I was being a dick, clearly you need to". It's only four posts above this one, dude, not hard to look.

Yes, and your focusing on the differences shows that you must still not grasp what the word means. Again, not trying to be a dick, but what part of the definition are you finding hard to understand? I will try to explain it for you in more depth perhaps?

1190. Debate: Would We Be Better Off Without Religion?

Comment #256140 by Wosret on September 28, 2008 at 7:29 pm

105. Comment #256135 by Amnis73

Calm down? You said repeatedly that you did not see how they were analogous...I find it odd, and inflammatory to be told to "calm down" after a simple explanation. You my find the correction threatening, but I am hardly at fault for that.

Of course if you accept my original point, that they are analogous, then we can move on, then the disagreement is resolved.

1191. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256132 by Wosret on September 28, 2008 at 7:11 pm

3304. Comment #256035 by Corylus

No, don't find Eddie Murphy funny either, but I do think Charlie Murphy can be funny.

1192. Debate: Would We Be Better Off Without Religion?

Comment #256128 by Wosret on September 28, 2008 at 7:07 pm

94. Comment #256049 by Amnis73

I didn't say look up the word because I was being a dick, clearly you need to.

"1. having analogy; corresponding in some particular: A brain and a computer are analogous.
2. Biology. corresponding in function, but not evolved from corresponding organs, as the wings of a bee and those of a hummingbird."- dictionary.com

I never said they were "equal" I said they were analogous, as in "corresponding in some particular".

You are analogous to a frog with respect to the qualities you share. As in those pieces of DNA you share, the fact that you both have a head, and so forth. Any qualities you do not share does not change this, because the analogy only must be to a "particular". Analogous does not mean that they are the same thing, or share all qualities, it only must share a single particular in order to be analogous in that single respect.

I have said that I think that the quote makes perfect sense because they are not only analogous, but I don't think that the qualities they don't share are relevant to the meaning of what he meant to convey.

1193. Debate: Would We Be Better Off Without Religion?

Comment #256037 by Wosret on September 28, 2008 at 4:58 pm

89. Comment #256026 by Amnis73

You're not analogous to a frog with respect to the qualities that you share? I think you need to look up the word then. That is exactly what it means.

I'm not minimizing the different. It is merely insubstantial in the context of the quote.

1194. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256033 by Wosret on September 28, 2008 at 4:55 pm

3299. Comment #256027 by Corylus

Yeah, I don't find him funny at all either.

1195. Debate: Would We Be Better Off Without Religion?

Comment #256022 by Wosret on September 28, 2008 at 4:45 pm

79. Comment #255997 by Diacanu

It's a writers expression, because in the worlds that we create, we are omniscience.

81. Comment #256003 by Amnis73

You don't have to believe it. Art is an illusion, as I said, what separates an illusion and a delusion is merely how we perceive, and cognize them.

It's analogous, like everything is analogous with anything else. In the qualities that they share, not the ones they don't.

1196. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256012 by Wosret on September 28, 2008 at 4:37 pm

3266. Comment #255930 by Fanusi Khiyal

The Utena movie was hardly wonderful, and in my opinion was a mere shadow of the anime it is based on. More yuri in the movie, but yuri isn't the only criterion by which I judge somethings quality. Merely the first one. I am astonished that anyone could think it better than Mononoke. Mononoke's awards alone at least show your view to be in a gross minority.

"Whisper of the Heart" isn't by Miyzuki. The screenplay was written by him, but it is based on an earlier manga work, I don't remember who by.

1197. Debate: Would We Be Better Off Without Religion?

Comment #255993 by Wosret on September 28, 2008 at 4:23 pm

77. Comment #255990 by Diacanu

The quote still makes perfect sense, for one person's illusion is an others delusion.

From a third party omniscient point of view, it is all "art" in that sense.

1198. Debate: Would We Be Better Off Without Religion?

Comment #255987 by Wosret on September 28, 2008 at 4:17 pm

70. Comment #255981 by Amnis73

Art is visual illusions, and delusions are illusions that we believe are true. It seems easily analogous to me.

1199. Debate: Would We Be Better Off Without Religion?

Comment #255983 by Wosret on September 28, 2008 at 4:12 pm

There is nothing I would pick death over.

Delusion is inescapable. We don't "know" reality. We merely perceive pieces of it, through flimsy, poorly crafted, corner cutting sense organs, and a mind that cobbles this information together in a simulation that we will never know the accuracy of. and we still only perceive a small portion. Our whole world is built on delusions. Delusions of what we are, what we know, where we come from, where we're going.

Some delusions are more obvious to you and me than they would be to other people, and some are dangerous. I think that waging a war against delusion is howling at the moon. I'm only interested in overturning dangerous delusions, of which I'm not yet convinced that all forms of religion perpetuate.

1200. Debate: Would We Be Better Off Without Religion?

Comment #255937 by Wosret on September 28, 2008 at 3:30 pm

38. Comment #255929 by Diacanu

In other words, the ends don't justify the means. I'm unconvinced that the means in your two scenarios are quite equivalent to religion, in all its possible forms.