1251. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #254471 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 5:59 pm

533. Comment #254458 by Titania

Well, I'm torn between whether the world exists because of me, or merely to serve me. It also could be both! A real dilemma. I may have to seek the arcane and precious knowledge of a theologian to figure it out. Those guys know everything.

1252. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #254434 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 4:57 pm

Ha! I've got you all topped for pain. I was called "dull" the other day.

None of you can even fathom the tip of my pain-iceberg!

1253. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #254407 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 4:16 pm

Not you sick you guys out, but I had abdominal surgery in December over an inguinal hernia, and my junk was completely black afterward. That was terrible. The recovery was awful.

The kidney stone was worse pain. Made me puke, but the recovery of the surgery, because of how long it lasted, and how it impeded my movement for so long was far worse in my book.

1254. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #254398 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 4:05 pm

495. Comment #254380 by Gregg Townsend

Kidney stones are suppose to be on par with the pain of child birth. Though it doesn't involve the nine months that precede it, or the recovery that follows.

I've had a kidney stone. My father has had over thirty. He had a gland problem that took them some time to figure out.

1255. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc. were atheists, and they were terrible! Answer that!

Comment #254378 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 3:38 pm

That is mere correlation, not causation. They were all men too, men must therefore be evil.

1256. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #254371 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 3:21 pm

491. Comment #254366 by Brian English

I couldn't agree more. I think that unquestionably the most powerful weapon against poverty, and the problems that accompany it is the emancipation of women, and the granting of the rights, and knowledge to take control of their own reproductive systems.

If we have a starving population, and can only feed enough to keep one hundred thousand alive, say, and then we get the means to feed two hundred thousand. The population will simply quickly reach that limit, and nothing will change.

Not enough food, and resources is not the problem. The women need to be free, and have control of their own bodies before things can even begin to improve.

1257. More atheists are sharing their views

Comment #254351 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 3:02 pm

I think that Hume showed the supernatural to be unknowable without omniscience, not logically impossible. He merely demonstrated that unless we possess a complete understanding of nature, it is not reasonable to suppose what can and cannot happen by natural means. Since no evidence can exist for the supernatural (scientific evidence) and every other studied phenomena has proven to have a natural explanation, then it is always reasonable to assume that there is one, even if we don't know what it is.

In order for this to be wrong, any explanation that did not involve the supernatural, even in principle, would have to be less likely (or the greater of two miracles) than the supernatural one.

1258. More atheists are sharing their views

Comment #254343 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 2:57 pm

81. Comment #254339 by the great teapot

Probably.

1259. More atheists are sharing their views

Comment #254335 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 2:48 pm

52. Comment #254292 by Sargeist

No way. I've yet to see a wiccan beat out Nagisa and Shizuma for cuteness!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWwr-K2-ymo

Catholic School Girls ftw.

1260. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #254289 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 2:18 pm

454. Comment #254086 by Jesus86

Because they're wrong then, it isn't murder. I don't give a shit what they think.

If I think that lookin' at me funny is a form of rape is it then reasonable to try to charge people for rape that look at me funny? Of course it isn't. I'm then simply wrong. As they, are simply wrong.

1261. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #254284 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 2:12 pm

467. Comment #254116 by Bonzai

I first heard about it on a nova documentary that I forget the name of, but then googled "age of self-consciousness" or "child self-consciousness" and read some studies about the subject.

No of the papers I've read put the beginning of the development of self-consciousness below 18 months, and none put its completion as being above five years. Most of the ones I read said that it starts developing at two, and isn't full-fledged until four.

I couldn't recommend good reading on the subject though, because I haven't read anything in depth about it. I bet MPhil could shoot off a list of material to read on the subject. Best I can offer is google.

I have no idea what you mean by the consciousness thing anymore. I thought I might for awhile, but I'm completely lost now. Over my head perhaps.

Why am I me and not you? I don't understand such a question. All I can think is that it just turned out that way. Though, I feel the urge to say that it couldn't have turned out any other way. If I lived any different life at all, then I don't know in what sense I would still be me, and in fact feel that I wouldn't be.

Though when it comes to consciousness, as a human experience, I don't think it would be all that different, if not the exact same to experience your consciousness instead of mine. Different levels in intelligences, different storehouses of knowledge, and different brain wiring, but other than that, I think it would be quite similar.

Kind of like using your desktop instead of mine. If they're built with the same hardware, but maybe some slight differences, and the same software, then I can't see it being all that different of an experience.

1262. More atheists are sharing their views

Comment #254264 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 1:51 pm

31. Comment #254234 by Steve Zara

I wouldn't call it reasonable either, though I would say that it's understandable.

1263. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #254074 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 9:33 am

450. Comment #254069 by Jesus86

No, it would technically not have been murder.

Though those are killings that you know I will agree were morally wrong, so it is a question begging analogy anyway. You are attempting to argue that it's wrong. I don't agree that it is, so using murder in a law sense, is just incorrect, and using it in a "morally wrong killing" sense (though no such formal definition of "murder" even exists to my knowledge) as you seem to be implying, is question begging.

You can't use words that imply your conclusions in your arguments.

1264. The God of the Bible is No Delusion!

Comment #254072 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 9:21 am

1761. Comment #254067 by Frankus1122

Thanks, I'm glad I got the gist of it right. I don't even remember where I heard it.

1265. The God of the Bible is No Delusion!

Comment #254065 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 9:10 am

1754. Comment #254058 by gimlibengloin

I disagree with Dawkins. I think that Hume demonstrated that atheism was always intellectually satisfying, nay, necessary.

Saying that there was ever a "need" for a designer merely grants that it is reasonable to plug holes in knowledge and understanding with magic, and wish-thinking. We don't know where the universe came from, or if it came from anywhere, thus there must be a need for a designer, because we don't have a naturalistic explanations yet.

It is absurd. All because we don't know the answer to a question, doesn't make it reasonable to assert that a magic man done it. Dawkins may think it is, but I don't.

1266. The God of the Bible is No Delusion!

Comment #254055 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 8:32 am

1752. Comment #254054 by epeeist

I don't agree with Dawkins that things appear designed. I've never had that impression. It reminds me of a quote, but I don't remember who by. One guy says to the other "why did anyone even think that the sun went round the earth?" other guy replies "well it looks that way", former guy responds "well what you'd expect it should look like if the earth went round the sun?"

1267. When Atheists Attack

Comment #254052 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 8:22 am

1380. Comment #254044 by Titania

Somewhere visible to the most people would be best. Just shave your head, and write it in the top five most spoken languages, on your scalp, and then I will be appeased. In fact, I'll even owe you one!

1268. Christian review of the Oxford Book of Modern Science Writing

Comment #254049 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 8:18 am

55. Comment #254036 by epeeist

You just need a roll-out tie dispenser.

This guy was a tool. He says how Dawkins didn't take any opportunity to diss religion, but he sure as hell took every opportunity to diss Dawkins. How Christian of him.

1269. Without God

Comment #254040 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 7:50 am

128. Comment #253784 by PERSON

Damn straight. Fear keeps me from doing anything risky well driving. I'm a paranoid fuck.

1270. When Atheists Attack

Comment #254038 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 7:42 am

1374. Comment #253989 by Titania

Great lengths? Where did you tattoo "Mitchell is super interesting" again? Those are great lengths.

What can I say, I'm a self-centered prick. I'm also not sly enough to catch something like that. I tunnel vision on the things about me.

1271. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #254014 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 5:55 am

436. Comment #254007 by Pony

Irregardless, that's a whole 'nother story. All of a sudden you have to guesstimate what others could of been inferring about you.

I also like to go to the zoo, where they have: Fishes, deers, mooses, gooses, and alot of other animals.

1272. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #254006 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 5:41 am

I'm here for a while, Titania. It's 10.30pm

1273. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #254004 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 5:39 am

429. Comment #253997 by Steve Zara

Self-awareness doesn't begin to develop until about two. Before then children don't understand that they are a thing, separate from other things. The evidence indicates to me that at no time does a fetus possess any degree of self-awareness, and still does not until several months after birth.

1274. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #253981 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 5:17 am

417. Comment #253980 by Laurie Fraser

I will not allot to you my acceptance of your proposition that "a lot" is two words.

1275. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #253962 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 4:47 am

398. Comment #253953 by Sargeist

Yes, for adults, well, metal yes, physical no. Who has the power? The family, and doctors. Neither without the other's say so.

It would definitely bothered me if such a thing happened. I'm a bleeding heart liberal remember. I'm a vegan, and try to carefully consider things to decide which is likely to result in more suffering, and picking its antithesis. I try to avoid as much suffering and harm as possible. I think that this is merely a case where the individuals termination is the option that results in the least overall suffering. I'm open to been shown wrong on that though.

1276. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #253954 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 4:37 am

391. Comment #253945 by ColdFusionLazarus

Well, I'm a prick, what can I say. I can be cordial, but only to people that bother to address what I've said, and also don't accuse me of things I never said.

1277. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #253949 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 4:32 am

387. Comment #253941 by Sargeist

Definitely would need an experts opinion, and good evidence that the fetus would be in such a state for life.

As for you other option, they then become society's burden. I don't feel super strongly about it. If the majority wants to keep them alive, then it isn't as if I've fight against them, I would just lose no sleep if they were terminated.

1278. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #253938 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 4:15 am

383. Comment #253936 by Steve Zara

I don't know why you keep responding to him Steve. He doesn't want to discuss. He likes putting out rather poor and absurd arguments, and then examining anything anyone says in disagreement looking for "got'chas", not trying to understand them, or their position. Not trying to reach agreement, or a conclusion.

Seems like a waste of time to me anyway.

1279. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #253933 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 4:09 am

379. Comment #253929 by ColdFusionLazarus

That was not my argument. I remember now why I stopped responding to you before.

I said that I could neither "bring down the knife" to take a life, or save a life. The outcome is not what bothers me. So that makes it irrelevant. Conveniently ignoring that part annoys me. I expect people to do plenty of jobs I'm not willing to do, or simply can't do. As I'm expected to do my job by them.

You logic is absurd. I'm not willing to clear the crotches of old people in homes either, but I think it should be done. Don't you? Are you doing it? Why not?

Look up what "knee-jerk" means. The ol' "I know you are but what am I" come back doesn't always work.

1280. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #253930 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 4:04 am

376. Comment #253924 by Sargeist

No, I don't require that the malformed infant will be in constant pain or anything. Just that it would be incapable of growing to be anything other than a burden on its family, and society.

I think that you slightly misunderstood my position with the rest. I never meant to imply that I thought that such infant's terminations should be compulsory. Merely an available option. If the parents want to raise the child, then that is their right, and one I would definitely defend.

1281. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #253923 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 3:43 am

370. Comment #253916 by ColdFusionLazarus

You ignored my counter argument, and it is their job. I didn't just assert that it wasn't relevant, I explained why I thought it wasn't. Address that.

Well, I hardly think that I lack compassion, that is my reason for this. Letting such a malformed infant grow and live causes their family and friends suffering. Extended over a lifetime. I think that a little ethical calculus shows that with consideration of everyone involved, ending the malformed infants life causes far less pain and suffering than letting it grow up, and be a burden on its family. I find it knee-jerk, and emotional to just want to let it live regardless of everyone involved, and hardly shows any compassion or consideration for relevant variables at all.

1282. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #253913 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 3:04 am

356. Comment #253900 by ColdFusionLazarus

Well, I don't value life at all. No more than anything else really. I munch down on that vegetable without a second thought. I only care about things that have personage, and can feel pain. I'd advocate rights for machines if they had personage.

Could I "bring down the knife"? Well, I don't think that they would be stabbing them to death...a bit of a exaggerated question don't you think? I doubt I could bring myself to even touch a slimy new born at all, I'm quite squeamish, you see. Though I couldn't bring the knife down and make the first incision in a life saving operation either, but I don't think that means the operation should not be had.

Stuff like that just grosses me out is all. It isn't because I think it's wrong. Whether someone is physical affected by an act or not is irrelevant to its ethicality.

1283. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #253894 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 2:35 am

351. Comment #253893 by Jesus86

Not my fault that you can't form valid arguments.

1284. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #253890 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 2:24 am

348. Comment #253889 by Jesus86

You are the one playing word games. You are using emotive, and inaccurate language, and defining something as wrong off the get go when that is what you wish to demonstrate.

All of which are fallacious forms of argument.

1285. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #253888 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 2:17 am

345. Comment #253886 by Jesus86

If the doctor considers abortion murder then he needs to look up the word "murder". Murder is unlawful premeditated killing with malice.

1286. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #253885 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 2:12 am

I also support euthanasia. Someone who is mentally fit, or with the approval of family that are mentally fit, should be able to decide to end their own lives, and to be assisted to do this painlessly.

1287. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #253883 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 2:08 am

339. Comment #253879 by Quetzalcoatl

I don't think that they should be allowed to do either. A doctor takes on their vocation, and gets trained to perform certain procedures. They knew what they were getting into, and should not be allow to refuse to perform them after the fact. It is part of their job, and like anyone else, they should be fired if they refuse to perform their job unless they are prepared to go to court over it, and then when they lose, either fulfill their job requirements or leave the profession.

1288. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #253880 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 2:02 am

337. Comment #253876 by Sargeist

People like you should be..

1289. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #253873 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 1:54 am

334. Comment #253871 by Sargeist

Wanna hug a tree with me sometime? I'll bring the green tea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3qgiNPVpSM

1290. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #253861 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 1:36 am

323. Comment #253855 by Sargeist

Oh noes! The sky must be falling. It might be safer for you to assume that you misunderstood. I am after all a bleeding heart tree-hugging vegan liberal socialist. You might want to think trice before you agree with the likes of me. It's only one step from there to redistribution of wealth, and the abolition of private ownership.

1291. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #253851 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 1:17 am

317. Comment #253848 by Steve Zara

I'd support the termination of fully formed infants with sufficiently handicapping mental or physical malformations. Whether they can feel pain or not.

I think that it is a morally defensible position to take.

1292. When Atheists Attack

Comment #253841 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 1:05 am

1366. Comment #253834 by AtheistJon

Don't contract my name. It is "Mitchell".

Yes, it only has a baring on whether they disgust you or not. I never said otherwise.

Oh...you didn't say you thought it was gross? That is a bald faced lie, you said you thought it was "disgusting" twice. You were quoted, and you did not deny them. So don't lie now.

If you don't care whether I approve, then why the attempted defense, and why the lies?

I'm not going to discuss ethics with you. I'm less than confident that I could even get you to grasp my position, let alone have an intelligent conversation about it.

1293. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #253837 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 12:51 am

309. Comment #253831 by Laurie Fraser

What do you get when you educate an idiot?

An educated idiot.

1294. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #253836 by Wosret on September 25, 2008 at 12:50 am

Steve, not to disagree with you in practice (I think we hold exactly the same position) but I will on language grounds. You have consistently used "person" but I find this strange. In the sense that you have defined "person" all mammals, birds, and arguably reptiles are also people. As you know, this wouldn't harm my position at all, but I think that it makes yours inconsistent. I also don't define "person" as you have. Although I do recognize a certain level of personage in said animals, I do not consider them persons at the level of a human being.

I define a person as having qualities including personality, intelligence, self-awareness, emotions, cognition (I use instead of "consciousness", as consciousness is extraordinarily hard to define, let a lone quantify), and possess a theory of mind. Under these criteria my cat is more of a person than a two year old child. Children don't even begin developing self-awareness and a theory of mind until around two, and they aren't full-fledged until they are about four. For this reason I don't think that you should be using "personage" as you criterion for this.

All that I requite before I start caring is that the fetus can cognize pain.

1295. When Atheists Attack

Comment #253798 by Wosret on September 24, 2008 at 11:36 pm

1357. Comment #253591 by AtheistJon

Oh, you were touched by brokeback mountain? Clearly I was wrong about you...

I never saw the movie. I only like lesbian romances. Preferably animated, or in manga form. I have no interest in heterosexual, and male homosexual romances.

You're sending mixed messages... are you disgusted by homosexuals? Or do you find gay romances touching? I don't see how the two are compatible. Seems like sadomasochism to me.

It seems more likely to me that you are straight, and a product of social conditioning, where guys make sure to say how gross they think homosexual stuff is so that no one thinks they are gay. It's self affirming, and common behavior among almost all guys I know. Though they don't escape my disapproval either.

I don't think anyone around here is going to think you're gay if you don't espouse how gross you think it is. You will instead elicit negative reactions by putting up such a front.

1296. Without God

Comment #253734 by Wosret on September 24, 2008 at 9:15 pm

120. Comment #253621 by Brian English

I highly doubt that one could consider getting one's head blown off "prolonged and painful". It would be nearly instantaneous death. Also, why should one fear pain if death isn't an issue? Would you rather be tortured, without any risk to your life, or killed? Which do you fear more.

Why should you fear something you don't know is about to happen? That is a rather silly question. You can't fear something you don't know is about to happen.

You might accept death, but you fear it like I do, and faced with it, you would show it.

I think that it is plain intellectual dishonesty to say that you are not afraid to die. 300 million years or more of evolution has build that fear into the very core of our beings. That is the utility of fear, to help us avoid death. It is because of the possibility of death that fear exists at all, nothing is worth fearing if death was not a possible outcome.

Saying you don't fear death is paramount to saying you don't feel hunger in my opinion.

126. Comment #253719 by PERSON

I don't think that fear has yet lost its utility.

1297. Without God

Comment #253315 by Wosret on September 24, 2008 at 9:38 am

104. Comment #253305 by Bonzai

Oh yes, I don't consider myself to be the same person I was last year, let alone four or five years ago. I'm completely different.


107. Comment #253312 by severalspeciesof

It's actually ten years. Not fifteen minutes...

1298. Without God

Comment #253310 by Wosret on September 24, 2008 at 9:32 am

103. Comment #253300 by Bonzai

To some degree they have self-consciousness. They can recognize themselves in mirrors. I'm less confident that they have any theory of mind at all, but they might.

I wouldn't be experiencing the cat's consciousness then, I'd just be her. Kind of a conundrum. How could "I" ever experience being her, while still being myself. Seems like a collision of egos there. May not be possible even in principle. I don't know.

1299. Without God

Comment #253297 by Wosret on September 24, 2008 at 9:22 am

I would be interested to know what you mean. I've heard "the self" stuff talked about, and what it means to experience my consciousness instead of yours, and what not. I just haven't given it much thought. I assume with another person it would be rather similar, if not quite the same.

I'd rather experience my cat's consciousness.

1300. When Atheists Attack

Comment #253281 by Wosret on September 24, 2008 at 9:02 am

1332. Comment #253271 by Bonzai

As you know (because I never fail to mention it at every opportunity) I am learning Japanese. I decided that I'd like to teach english in Japan, so I'm going to get a BA in philosophy starting next fall. By the time I'm through get my BA, I should be half decent at Japanese. I know about 1500 kanji now.

I still plan on practicing and doing some of my own doujinshi (self-published manga) but not for some time, when I'm no longer terrible. I certainly can't wait to visit the place. I've been obsessed with Japanese stuff for the past ten years.