1301. Fleabytes

Comment #135060 by Goldy on February 28, 2008 at 1:41 pm

OK, this gets at my question-what are the good things if Prof. Dawkins says there is no evil or good, no purpose, or design?

This has been covered ad nauseum here. Josh, is there a search function?
You know what is good - it is hardwired into you. I am, of course, assuming you are not in Broadmoor or something for psychopathia. You know what make a general human happy, sad, embarrassed, etc. You know how you feel when things happen. You can empathise when watching TV or a play or even reading a book. You know how you'd feel when someone beats a child or a dog. Evolution and societal living has given you all the information. Nihilism has to be worked on - no one is nihilist (unless something is amiss) by default. Babies know when to laugh or cry, toddlers know when to hug and kiss better (at least, my daughter does).
We don't need to tell you - you know already.
Nature, on the other hand, doesn't care. A tsunami kills 100K people - nature doesn't stop tsunamis. Gods don't stop tsunamis either and they kill good people as well as bad. Working in mysterious ways or having a plan doesn't cut it. Saying there is no plan explains it beautifully.

1302. Fleabytes

Comment #135048 by Goldy on February 28, 2008 at 1:34 pm

But how do we decide what the right goals for our lives are? You say 'better with the ladies', but is that the goal? How do I even know whether bedding a lot of ladies is a good thing? It feels good, yes, but is it right? How would I know that?

Also, can I pursue any goals I want, or do I owe something to humanity--if so, what?

What are you good at? Does that make people happy and make you prosperous?
I always wondered what I should do. Then I had a child - I found out what my purpose was. But that's just me.
Confidence is good - and nothing is more a turn off (except, I am told, in the US) to anything than procaliming a faith in God. Or gods, though having more than one is a bit exotic and worthy of interest. As T. Blair said recently, say you believe in God in the UK and people think you're a nutter.
Can you pursue any goals? Yes, if you can. Avoid murder, rape, pillage, etc as they are frowned upon by society at large. Don't forget, sometimes you really can't do anything you want as we are all different. Look at drawing - some can and some can't. Same with sport.

Right, where's those running shoes then...I'll give it another shot...

Works a lot better than prayer.

Telling me, Billy! Those bastards in church lied to me!!! (I use "bastards" affectionately, much like an archetypal Australian uses it...beofre I get told off for aggressive bad language..)

1303. Turkey in radical revision of Islamic texts

Comment #135043 by Goldy on February 28, 2008 at 1:26 pm

http://www.urban-europe.net/working/06_2004_Anil.pdf
The German citizenship reform was recent history.

others stayed and had children, who are now mostly parents themselves.

They weren't considered German (or Austrian).

1304. Turkey in radical revision of Islamic texts

Comment #135038 by Goldy on February 28, 2008 at 1:20 pm

Noone is called a "guest worker" in Germany anymore

True, but I believe the feeling lingers. Turks are the majority in Austria (hard to notice an Italian where we're from given Sud tirol is just south of the Brenner :-)). I know that the laws are being revised - heck, even my mother can't see why they can't get citizenship after so many years - generations even. Not that she's racist assuch - but old feelings die hard...

1305. Fleabytes

Comment #135033 by Goldy on February 28, 2008 at 1:17 pm

Ever since I became a total atheist, I have been in a better mood, been in shape, had better luck with ladies, been happier, had better relationships, more friends, more productive at work....

Bugger me, Alex, going to have to make sure the wife and mother never hear this. Might get dragged to church, made to convert of religion so I can become athiest again - especially concerning shape! ;-)
As you say tho', athiesm does make one realise that there is nothing out there to damn you but you yourself and those you love and nothing out there to help you but you yourself and those you love.
Right, where's those running shoes then...I'll give it another shot...

1306. Evolving Mistakes

Comment #135030 by Goldy on February 28, 2008 at 1:13 pm

Best start here Can any of you clever scientists point me to a web-site which explains how sexual reproduction evolved? then follow the links.

As Bapteste et al. (2005) observe, "additional evidence suggests that gene transfer might also be an important evolutionary mechanism in protist evolution."[6]

However,

Dr. Mae-Wan Ho, a noted scientist and critic of genetic engineering, writes: "While horizontal gene transfer is well-known among bacteria, it is only within the past 10 years that its occurrence has become recognized among higher plants and animals. The scope for horizontal gene transfer is essentially the entire biosphere, with bacteria and viruses serving both as intermediaries for gene trafficking and as reservoirs for gene multiplication and recombination (the process of making new combinations of genetic material)."[7]

This suggests to me that HGT might be seen as a precursor to sex, it still occurs and that the sexual reproduction as we know it has another origin.
We probably have to go back to plants to see differentiation happening. There are male and female plant parts. Pollen is the male component - if you live near pine trees and get coated in that golden dust which makes me sneeze you are effectively being coated in tree sperm :-) Same with corals etc in the sea - they are the animal equivalent. Though releasing the male gamete works in that if one releases enough and the female gametes are in fairly close proximity, fertilisation will occur, I dare say when a mutation caused the male not to release all the gemetes out willy-nilly but deposit them into the female next door, evolution was onto something.
Complete conjecture - I'll keep looking :-)

1307. Turkey in radical revision of Islamic texts

Comment #134994 by Goldy on February 28, 2008 at 12:32 pm

http://www.mentalmayhem.net/newswire/2005/02/saudi_who_rode_.html
How the people outside Turkey might respond ;-)
Actually, they're not that bad. Mosy of the Turks i know of are actually in Austria and Germany. Guest workers, they're called, and boy is that a barrier to integration!

1308. Turkey in radical revision of Islamic texts

Comment #134983 by Goldy on February 28, 2008 at 12:26 pm

In here too
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/02/26/wturkey126.xml
Before we get too excited...

But Mehmet Gormez, the British trained theologian who is supervising the work, refutes such charges. The exercise is "purely academic" he told the Daily Telegraph

and

Despite the excitement the project has elicited in Western circles, some Islamic experts caution that it will have little impact, not least because the government is involved.

"There are established views on Islam and how it should be practiced that have been in place for 1400 years," said Hashim Hashimi, an Islamic sheikh and a former MP. "And they aren't going to change any time soon," he added.

1309. Fleabytes

Comment #134976 by Goldy on February 28, 2008 at 12:22 pm

Hinduism is actually monotheistic, the multiple gods are manifestations of the same entity and represent its various aspects, Shiva would be the personification of chaos and destruction

I read it was a conglomeration of different gods from different peoples all melded over time into one god or many. Complicated - but then, they are gods...
Death and destruction are necessary for birth and reconstruction. Some cultures do not fear tham. Notthat they rejoice in them, but they have a stoic view. For the suffering they have now, there's happiness to follow.
Some Christian (and Muslim too - Wahabis don't seem to like laughter and happiness) groups revel in sin and loathing. I believe the Cathars were such a group - body a sinful vessel and death to be welcomed as it freed the soul. Got their wish in the end but seems they weren't that keen on the releasing soul part after all. As Richard M says, it is a loathsome attitude. Which should clarify PMurdock's concerns as Robertson seems intent on following that loathsome philosophy (and he's the cheerful one!)

1310. Feb 12th: Happy Darwin Day!

Comment #134962 by Goldy on February 28, 2008 at 12:02 pm

Viral infections, that interesting, must look into that.

Check out oncogenes too.

1311. Feb 12th: Happy Darwin Day!

Comment #134961 by Goldy on February 28, 2008 at 12:01 pm

Heresy! I call for a fatwa! Or at least a carbohydratewa

I hang my head in shame, covering my head in ragu and scourging my body with linguine! Forgive me!

1312. Feb 12th: Happy Darwin Day!

Comment #134514 by Goldy on February 27, 2008 at 11:30 pm

Where are the transition fossils?

Generally when a transition fossil is shown, cretinists ask for the transition between that one and the Ur-fossil.
Fossilisation is serendipity. It's hard enough to fossilise a bony creature, never mind a soft skinned thing. You've seen jellyfish on the beach, I assume. What happens to them over the course of a day?

Why should there be an "explosion" of any sorts at all? As I read, I saw that this issue is the subject of a lot of controvery among scientists. I am curious as to what people here think about it.

For a few million years (probably longer than the time between us and dinosaurs), small wee cellular organisms were busy making oxygen. Once the levels of oxygen were high enough in the atmosphere, things could utilise this new source of energy and really let rip, evolutionarily speaking.
DNA and RNA are nice long molecules. Thing with long molecules is that they are easily damaged (try it with spaghetti - swing various lengths of the boiled noodles above your head) - damage leads to repair and repair doesn't always lead to the molecule being identical. That's change (mutation). UV light, viri, DNA swapping, a whole heap of ways of changing the DNA came about (again, don't forget that in this same time, scales became feathers - that long!). Lots of wee little things, short lifespans, lots of mutations, short lifespans...I think you get the picture.
So, when you say and explosion, it's probably no more than there was an explosion of mammals after the dinosaurs were wiped out. Conditions and the creatures living there was all conducive to what we can term an explosion.
Have to put my daughter to bed now and I'll probably fall asleep doing it. Only 40 but feel 100 sometimes. Should have had children earlier...but then I doubt I'd have had the patience. You can see I am easily exasperated....
G'nite all!

1313. Feb 12th: Happy Darwin Day!

Comment #134512 by Goldy on February 27, 2008 at 11:27 pm

Goldy, you need to relax a little bit. I have never set forth any particular god here, but simply the idea that a designer must exist. I never made any assertion that any particular Holy Book contains the truth. Just let your defences down a little bit, and relax.

Then I shall. If your other contributions were more in this style, none of this would have happened. Athiests are people, not automata :-) I apologise for my brusqueness and for the tone of my comments to you. I offer you my hand.

1314. The Encyclopedia of Life, No Bookshelf Required

Comment #134308 by Goldy on February 27, 2008 at 3:06 pm

I don't know at what point the dawn of unicellular life would be on that scale. If someone does could they tell me?

From http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/bacteria/bacteria.html

the oldest fossils known, nearly 3.5 billion years old, are fossils of bacteria-like organisms

Not sure where that fits in on the arm scale...

1315. The Encyclopedia of Life, No Bookshelf Required

Comment #134303 by Goldy on February 27, 2008 at 2:53 pm

Glad we got that sorted. Nobody tell the Mormons

they're the only ones that get to heaven - I know, i saw it on Southpark. And God is a Buddhist cat, as I recall :-) That'll be a shock to a believing Muslim!

1316. Feb 12th: Happy Darwin Day!

Comment #134300 by Goldy on February 27, 2008 at 2:51 pm

My hope is that someone who hasn't yet heard of, for example, the "snowball earth" idea will look it up on wikipedia and get that "wow!" feeling.

As, indeed, I did :-)
He's not going to believe it, you know...

1317. The Encyclopedia of Life, No Bookshelf Required

Comment #134298 by Goldy on February 27, 2008 at 2:48 pm

Bit late with this - but which Ark stroy are we following here? Before we go all gloom and doom - not everyone and everything might have died :-)

About Noah, the Floods and Mankind
Adil Salahi, Arab News

Q. We know that Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was sent to all mankind, but was Prophet Noah (peace be upon him) also sent to all mankind? If he was sent as a messenger of God to his own people only, and they refused to accept his message, why was all mankind drowned by the floods that engulfed the whole world? It is said that the whole population of the earth come from his three sons, Ham, Sam and Yafith. Please explain.

S.R. Ali

A. To start with, there are several statements in the Qur'an making clear that Prophet Noah was sent to his own people. He was not a messenger to all mankind. Only Prophet Muhammad was given this task, and therefore, the miracle supporting his message was a book, the Qur'an, outlining a code of living that is suitable to all generations and all communities and environments. Therefore, the question posed by the reader is valid: was the great flood a punishment to all people on earth at the time? If so, why?

In fact, there is no indication or reference in the Qur'an suggesting that the floods overwhelmed the entire planet. The description given in the Qur'an of the flood makes clear that it was of overwhelming proportions, leaving none of the wrongdoers among Noah's people alive. It does not mention other communities. In fact there are several references that it engulfed Noah's own people in particular. Take for example the twice-repeated Qur'anic statement: "Do not appeal to Me on behalf of the wrongdoers. They shall be drowned." (11: 37 & 23: 27) "We saved him together with all those who stood by him, in the ark, and caused those who rejected Our revelations to drown. Surely they were blind people." (7: 64) The contexts in which all these statements occur are very clear in their references to Noah's own community to whom he was required to address his message. Hence we can say that the flood punishment was directed to his own people who rejected his faith, after clear evidence had been given to them, and after their long opposition to his efforts and their repeated hurling of abuse and ridicule on him.

This means that other communities to whom Noah's message was not addressed were not involved in these events.

There is no reason to suppose otherwise. This means that those communities either received other messages, about which the Qur'an remained silent, or they were not at the time receiving any message. In either case, their fate would be determined by their circumstances. We need not go into this because we have no means to establish such historical events with any reasonable measure.

Nor can we say that all people living today are descendents of Noah through his three sons. To start with, there were other people saved in the Ark. These could have had children of their own and they would have descendents. Moreover, We cannot establish with any degree of certainty that Noah had three sons. Indeed, it is practically impossible to ascertain that Sam ever existed, which casts doubt on the very idea of Semitism.

Whether such things are established or not is of no importance. What is important is to rely only on what God says in the Qur'an and what the Prophet has taught in his authentic Sunnah. This is what ensures our salvation in the life to come.

1318. Feb 12th: Happy Darwin Day!

Comment #134287 by Goldy on February 27, 2008 at 2:37 pm

And speaking of fossils (third try!)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7264856.stm

1319. Feb 12th: Happy Darwin Day!

Comment #134283 by Goldy on February 27, 2008 at 2:31 pm

Without wishing to sound rude, Steve, maybe we can see if Shmeezers will actually read up on the subject before he is spoonfed by us. Obviously we are not worthy of consideration. Wikipedia provides quite a readable account and the second link provided shows the pre-Cambiran fossils.

1320. Feb 12th: Happy Darwin Day!

Comment #134277 by Goldy on February 27, 2008 at 2:22 pm

Also, it would be nice if you can provide some preliminary comments on the Cambrian explosion, which is what I was referring to when I said "the instantaneous appearance of complex life." Thanks

Do some background reading first.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian_explosion
A point I'd like to draw your eyes to - this explosion was not instantaneous

In the following 70 million to 80 million years, the rate of evolution accelerated by an order of magnitude....

And pre-Cambrian http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/precambrian/proterozoic.html

1321. Feb 12th: Happy Darwin Day!

Comment #134270 by Goldy on February 27, 2008 at 2:07 pm

As for you Goldy, your post is so utterly preposterous, so immature, that I really do not know how to respond

Given the sheer breathtaking inanity of your posts, the total lack of willingness to accept points, to read what is presented to you, the refutations of scientists who spend their working hours studying what you have absolutely not one iota of a clue about, I suggest you do not respond. To anything.
You asked Steve to give you points. Why? You are not going to believe them, you are not even going to think on them, you are just going to dismiss them because these points will not have your god in them.
You are an immature man (or woman) yourself. Petulant and stubborn. As you said...

You are at liberty to disagree with me, but to start insulting me to such a degree is just so futile!

and I do, I disagree with you totally reagarding your cretinism and your Goddidit-ism. I cannot think how anyone can be so arrogant, so presumptious, to think they are correct because their "holy book", their own god, is correct. Have you done ANY reading of the links sent to you? Any research into evolution? Do you know anything about evolution, outside of what some proudly ignorant priest told you? Insulting you is not futile - I know the words roll off your back because I am condemned to an eternity of damnation in your mind already. You are already gloating over my punishment in the hereafter. But insulting you releaves the stresses you caused to build up in me. It is a salve for my mind to counter the heat of your pig headedness and arrogance.
When will we see some intelligent posting from you?

1322. Pakistan blocks YouTube over blasphemous video

Comment #134235 by Goldy on February 27, 2008 at 12:41 pm

Heheheheh! Think I'll learn the rude Chinese words. Be a start to my Chinese education too and it's about time we worked on converting her monolinguality to polyglottism. I'll throw in the German I know too...

1323. Add another flea to the list...

Comment #134230 by Goldy on February 27, 2008 at 12:38 pm

I post when I am at work. I think I'm pushing my luck. I can't do anything at home as family and old cars take up my time outside work.
Al, you said Stalin is there - I can see the Stalinicon, but mostly I see Duffman! Oh yeah...
damn, 9:37 in the morning and already I have a wee wanting that might be assuaged by beer. Unhealthy - must think lupus nephritis! HPLC! LCMS!!

1324. Pakistan blocks YouTube over blasphemous video

Comment #134224 by Goldy on February 27, 2008 at 12:31 pm

Al, I saw that. I was reinforcing your translation. Yours sounds more....mature :-) After all, calling someone a dreckfresser isn't a sure fire way to endear oneself ;-)
I also like pithy terms - gets me into trouble and my daughter is starting to copy the words. Might have to use long words which she'll mangle and no one will understand...

1325. Add another flea to the list...

Comment #134220 by Goldy on February 27, 2008 at 12:27 pm

Before you can decide whether you would follow or oppose him don't you first have to know how you would recognize an aspiring Stalin?

Moustache?

1326. Pakistan blocks YouTube over blasphemous video

Comment #134214 by Goldy on February 27, 2008 at 12:19 pm

I was hoping the Turkish thing would be a signal...but I have to say I think not. The religiously minded "elders" are particularly immune to change. After all, we still have Anglican bishops in the UK who blame gays for flooding. Sigh...
As for the Dreck - I'd translate that as shit rather than dirt. But that conversation appears to have passed.
Flag planting - weren't the Russians the last to do that? Under the Arctic? Good old sins of the fathers. As an Englishman, I am fairly immune to being blamed for the world's ills (living in one of the ex-colonies flying an ensign, with the Union Jack in the corner, it still occurs). Most of the Empire was history when I was born. Indeed, there is a bit of Brit bashing (very mildly) in the papers over the governments desicion to stop the grandparent thing over visas (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10493974 and http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/466/story.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10493982 - the latter for comments).
I think the Muslims decry terrorism as much as we westerners do. We still ask for more, mind. Not sure how much more protesting they can really do, or if anything would change if they did. After all, there were some pretty big protests about the Second Gulf War in London...

1327. Feb 12th: Happy Darwin Day!

Comment #133872 by Goldy on February 27, 2008 at 1:55 am

Cretin, as I recall, derives from Christian. I stand by my usage.

1328. Fleabytes

Comment #133870 by Goldy on February 27, 2008 at 1:53 am

That is brilliant. You could not make this stuff up! Anyone who reads TGD and has not been converted to atheism is either ignorant or very stupid.

Truth hurts, dunnit?

1329. Add another flea to the list...

Comment #133865 by Goldy on February 27, 2008 at 1:48 am

Hey, everyone, let's have a little informal vote here, if an aspiring Stalin came along, would you follow or oppose him?

As I still sometimes hesitate to speak my mind when in China, I guess I oppose too.

1330. Feb 12th: Happy Darwin Day!

Comment #133864 by Goldy on February 27, 2008 at 1:44 am

First I want to thank all of you - especially Goldy and our good Reverend - for their very mature responses. Maturity is a mark of confidence, and I am glad to see that everyone here posseses that.

Recognition! Mwuahahahahahah! And from a cretin :-D I love it.
But I was not mature. Oh, dear, I'm sorry Shmeezy-weezy, it's just that I think you are retarded. You can type but you can't read. If you can read, you sure as hell can't understand...I guess you're just congenitally stupid. Proof?

The evidence does NOT point to Darwinian evolution. The idea of evolution is an idea imposed on nature. And for good reason. Once having rejected God a priori (as the majority of Darwinians are apt to do these days, and certainly all of you), the only other way to account for nature is through a common origin; you guys are not at liberty to posit the instantaneous coming about of complex life (which, I might add, is what the fossil record indicates), because that would require a designer (things don't just appear in the realm of pure materialism).

So, what does the fossil record show? And where are the animals that the fossils show. Oh, wait, they're fakes. Yeah, that's it. Somehow, they are faked adn written up in peer reviewed papers, the peers all being jealous of each other and not really that keen on promoting their rival's papers...but hey, we're all in this together!
No, you're way is correct. God (and not Jupiter, Zoroaster, Odin or any other "false" god - you sure they're not false?) made everything just as they are now and the flood killed them all. Pisser that everything we see doesn't appear in this recent (younger than farming or even the oldest city) record you assume.
You can't read, you can't see evidence, you can't do anything but dribble and rant. How do you get through each day?

You say that just because we can observe genetic mutation that will affect the colour of the organism, or the size of its beak, this must mean that it can do even greater things - like make a fish grow legs, or whatever. No proof. No proof in the lab; no proof with fossils. Nothing. Just an assumption based on a worldview.

Despite the proof, you still go around like an ayatallah in Paris, casting your eyes down lest the truth comes up and smacks you on the head. Mind you, you haven't read the proof, have you? No, you clapped your hands in front of your eyes and turned the computer off.
I think you are too stupid to talk to. You do cretinism a great disservice. Why I wasted time typing all thins is beyond me - I can't think of anything really strong to say to you (and you being a man that uses the word "nincompoop") to show the true strength of my feelings. The Bible is wasted on you - Jesus himself would have made sure you were stoned before reproducing to ensure your line was ended. In fact, you are proof positive that evolution occurs - your kind will end up as grubbers, fighting with the pigs for the scraps left by normal people. You give religion a bad name, you make me aware that I cannot ever worship a god, you prove that there cannot be a god as nothing in its right mind would have allowed you to perpetuate and bless it's holy name. You are devoid of sense, devoid of intelligence, devoid of feelings and clarity of thought. You are the reason slaves existed for millenia, for the dark ages, for honour killings, for forced marriages - your mindset has stopped reason and thought for millenia and now cannot comprehend the wonder around you. Colour is a meaningless concept for you, it is merely shades of grey between black and white and even this concept confuses you.
I also note Wooter has farted online too.

1331. The Encyclopedia of Life, No Bookshelf Required

Comment #133792 by Goldy on February 26, 2008 at 7:40 pm

I think Adam must have been a really old dude by the time he finished with the last naming ceremony

Quick perusal of Wikipedia...

According to the Bible, Adam finally died at the age of 930 years

1332. Are the 'New Atheists' avoiding the 'real arguments'?

Comment #133790 by Goldy on February 26, 2008 at 7:36 pm

Steveroot, I have to ask....
5?
Apologies if I missed the earlier explanation :-)

1333. Pakistan blocks YouTube over blasphemous video

Comment #133789 by Goldy on February 26, 2008 at 7:34 pm

I will admit if a pharma company offered me a job...
Money, cause of shady practices? No, I don't believe it... ;-)

1334. The Giant Tortoise's Tale

Comment #133784 by Goldy on February 26, 2008 at 7:19 pm

The smaller islands are mostly too dry for grass, and the tortoises resort to browsing on cactuses

Cacti, surely?

1335. Pakistan blocks YouTube over blasphemous video

Comment #133782 by Goldy on February 26, 2008 at 7:12 pm

:-)

I wouldn't want to take away their right to speak, I am just not sure about giving them platforms in scientific educational institutions.

Working in a scientific educational establishment, I know how bad it sounds, but point a and point b as given above sums up my views.
Money has a strange effect on scientific research, both actual and establishment. If you think a kook trying to convince a scientist that evolution is worng and that the cretisnists have been right all along is bad, read this
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/health-news/drug-giants-warned-tell-the-truth-on-medicines-787907.html
Lost a contract to one of these sort of shenanigans.

1336. Add another flea to the list...

Comment #133779 by Goldy on February 26, 2008 at 7:05 pm

And you have still not answered my question: 'Where else, sir, would you make a cutting-off point?'

Stop wriggling and/or sucking up and answer the question.

See why I didn't draw any lines, ThoughtsonCommonToad?
;-)

1337. Pakistan blocks YouTube over blasphemous video

Comment #133778 by Goldy on February 26, 2008 at 7:02 pm

Aaah, students, eh? Linked to the link I gave above
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/02/27/wsaudi127.xml
Still, must make that Buchanan blokey here in NZ happier...
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/11/story.cfm?c_id=11&objectid=10456465
She was an Arab student too....

1338. Pakistan blocks YouTube over blasphemous video

Comment #133777 by Goldy on February 26, 2008 at 6:59 pm

PJG - I dropped this wee link around comment 5. I got this:

Re: Goldy

This is from a comment below the article you linked that really made me smile:

----------begin------------

The proper reaction to these people is "ahh, bless" (and a pat on the head). To rekindle your sense of humour I include below this delightfully funny quote from one of the usual run-of-the-mill know-all whackjobs:

"One of the most basic laws in the universe is the Second Law of Thermodynamics. This states that as time goes by, entropy in an environment will increase. Evolution argues differently against a law that is accepted EVERYWHERE BY EVERYONE. Evolution says that we started out simple, and over time became more complex. That just isn't possible: UNLESS there is a giant outside source of energy supplying the Earth with huge amounts of energy. If there were such a source, scientists would certainly know about it."

----------end------------


Seriously, though, I really don't know how to deal with these people - it's not like they would trust (let alone understand) an academic article I might refer them to. One of my best friends is a middle school science teacher who genuinely believes that evolution is a myth; when I found out, I was utterly speechless. What can you possibly say to someone that blind? Sigh.

In another thread, Al-rawandi reminded me about the guy promoting this. He was in the NY Times recently, doling out pretty nice books about his brand of cretinism to universities and teching establishments.
What do I think of it - well, we can't not let them speak. Not like they are promoting hatred or anything. As long as the audience know what they believe in, it'll flop or go on. Look at all teh evidence around and still there are cretinists who insist is all down to a god as mentioned in a book. They dress it up in scientific clothing and even admit wee parts to it, but it is still cretinism (this is not a typo, btw). We know it is tosh, the audience knows it is tosh but we had better let them speak for they a) pay to look stupid and b) complain vocally and longly if we don;t allow them a platform. Also c) they pay us money to look stupid. I know this is also a) but it is so funny I thought I'd include it again.
Not all bad, mind.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/02/26/wturkey126.xml
Wonder what the imams in other Islamic countries think of this?

1339. 12 Year Old Girl Prodigy Paints Pictures of God

Comment #133762 by Goldy on February 26, 2008 at 5:44 pm

Why are christians so inarticulate and emotional?

What a bunch of God and Christian haters!!! Life must suck for you people carrying around so much HATE. There is absolutely no explanation for this girls talent other than God put it there.

Hate in capitals and exclamation marks a-plenty. There's more..

here it is i dont think she is crazy. why is it everyone always has to doubt something just because it has not happend to you. i believe her and i think she is a increadible 12 year old girl to come out and talk about it and share her paintings with us, seeing how the world is today as most of you know. and the stuff that some of you said was just un called for she is only 12. I believe that God does talk to people that want to liesten and the reason nobody else has came out and done what she did is because they are probably scared that people will say stuff just like all of you are and also God gave her the gift of painting to shear with the world but everone has to be a critic the paintings are excelent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What, capital letters reserved only for your god? 14 (count them) exclamation marks. As for grammar....
Anyway, trees can do the same...http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/02/26/wjesus126.xml
Let's hope the young lass loses her goddiness and keeps up with the painting. There's a good picture in there waiting to come out :-) Unless the tree gets there first :-D

1340. Add another flea to the list...

Comment #133760 by Goldy on February 26, 2008 at 5:21 pm

It doesn't allow line drawing at all.

Trouble when drawing lines comes from those that try and draw it in such a place as to advantage them and disadvantage the others. In something like international sports, there's too many opinions on where that line should be and those that don't like it throw a hissy fit and have their own games...
We put so much on sports - nationalism reigns supreme in these events. When the All Blacks lose important rugby matches, there is a gloom here you would not believe. last Olympics, I was in China with my then to be wife and had it pointed out to me how many golds Chinese athletes got by everyone.
It's all so...silly, really.

1341. Evidence can't shake your faith if your faith excludes it as evidence

Comment #133753 by Goldy on February 26, 2008 at 5:05 pm

Of course, they could just rewrite the tenets of faith
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/02/26/wturkey126.xml
If the faith really doesnt't fit reality, why not change it?

1342. Add another flea to the list...

Comment #133751 by Goldy on February 26, 2008 at 5:03 pm

Goldy in reference to "uber-athletes claiming they didn't do drugs". Be nice to hear your response.

Me? Ummm, what can I say? How do they define drugs? I don't think athletes should, but they do. Personally, I'd let them take drugs but have them run in a separate series.
There is so much loaded on the athlete to perform well that it is surprising if they don't dabble in something that'll improve their performance. Look at the pressure Chinese athletes are under now (and cities - Beijing's smog problem cure is now affecting parts of the neighbouring provinces too). I had read (or saw on TV) the differences between Chinese athletes and US athletes when it came to training and preparation. China was typically communist - train, train, train - prepare for the glory in the games, their whole lives focussed on success. The US athlete had to muddle through somehow, getting to the pool before the hoi polloi etc, etc.
Is that not the same as doping...in a way?

1343. Don't blame Islam for terrorism, expert says

Comment #133716 by Goldy on February 26, 2008 at 3:24 pm

Israeli study finds suicide bombers motivated by vengeance and not religious zeal.

Suicide bombing is a recent phenomenon in Islam, I believe. Suggests to me that if Islam is the cause of it all, we would have seen more of it in the past.
I am trying to imagine what it must be like in Gaza at teh moment. What would I feel?
Of course, this argument doesn't work too well with the others - rich Saudis telling other rich Saudis to fly planes into buildings, doctors planning to bomb Glaswegians...
In the Levantine case, I can see despair and revenge. Not quite sure about the others.

I'm surprised that nobody ever uses Spain's Franco as an example of a religiously-inspired regime that was aided actively for years by the clergy. Then there's Japan's emperor who, despite the myth of having had no power, actually was heavily involved in the war planning and acted completely from his sense of being a God-king with a lineage that needed to be saved.

I used it once in an argument here. Stopped that line dead, I can tell you. As I recall, my words were that Hirohito was not only religious, he was a god.

1344. Add another flea to the list...

Comment #133712 by Goldy on February 26, 2008 at 3:18 pm

It's some kind of Stockolm Syndrome or something.

Probably is - and probably also cultural...at least in terms of Chinese loving Mao :-)
As for this athleticism, I was fit and fast once. Then I discovered that at 35-ish, a weird thing happened - fat appeared faster than it left. I exercised more and things seemed to get back in check. Then it started again...so I let it win. I can fight gods but not nature. And my knee gave up on me. Ageing is great, eh?
However, I took up welding at night school, so I can still maintain my manliness :-) Not through feats of strenth but by fusing metal together with fire and sparks. And not crying when in serious pain (hot metal really, really hurts!).
:-)

1345. Add another flea to the list...

Comment #133661 by Goldy on February 26, 2008 at 1:36 pm

Not in the supernatural sense, but in the sense of an Emperor,--all wise and kind etc. I don't think that is the same thing as in Western religion.

Good point, although I have seen stuff that suggests it was more than that, although maybe it was after Mao's death.

My wife says she loves Mao. She doesn't worship him - indeed she has no feeling for gods. But she admits to loving him as one would a father. Bonzai is right, I think.
She was 10 when Mao died - the badges and stuff her parents had to collect and wear are in my possession now. It is also a bit sinister to see the pictures - her parents were natty dressers before the blue suits came in and pictures of my wife and her siblings all have them holding the little red book. There was a bit of brainwashing going on then, hence the "sadness" at his death and the feelings prevalent now.
Godlike in a way, but not a god - more a father.

1346. Add another flea to the list...

Comment #133648 by Goldy on February 26, 2008 at 1:09 pm

My martial arts instructor is a fairly short guy, probably only a few inches above Anna's height. He could without question beat the crap out of the biggest and heaviest guy in our class

I dare say the smaller size would also be instrumental in unbalancing the bigger guy....as I found out while tripping over my daughter. She thought it was funny - I'm still sore.

1347. Evidence can't shake your faith if your faith excludes it as evidence

Comment #133646 by Goldy on February 26, 2008 at 1:06 pm

Now, imagine time travel is possible. Can you imagine landing a harrier jump jet beside Abraham. Now that would have been a little bit more impressive than a burning bush.

Read Ezekiel - first chapters.

No, there's no evidence, but suppose there were! Then Dawkins would be guilty of ignoring that supposed evidence. Doesn't this ironclad argument convince you to change your godless ways?

BTW, want to buy a bridge?

Egad! You're right! We're wrong! Not sure about teh bridge...you see, I got one already... ;-)

1348. Add another flea to the list...

Comment #133640 by Goldy on February 26, 2008 at 1:00 pm

Al, you are forgetting realpolitik. Bruce Lee would have to win or contracts with influencial Chinese firms would be lost. There would be terrible trouble, US/China relations would suffer a blow, WalMart would go bust as the Vietnamese aren't geared to supply in the amounts needed...
Sorry, but the US dude would have to throw the fight - for the sake of world peace.
;-)

1349. Add another flea to the list...

Comment #133637 by Goldy on February 26, 2008 at 12:58 pm

My point is, Lenin, Stalin and many other early Bolsheviks had been brought in Christianity, which does not seem to have had the magic-morality effect on them that is supposed to happen when people sit under a copy of the 10 Religious Expressions in a classroom or mumble the Magic Decoder Ring name of a particular deity in a school prayer.

The Bayeux tapestry (those in the UK go to Reading Town Hall for a good copy) shows Odo of Bayeux fighting alongside his brother. Odo was a bishop. His only moral duty, as I recall, was not to spill blood...hence he used a club.

1350. Add another flea to the list...

Comment #133635 by Goldy on February 26, 2008 at 12:54 pm

Richard M, Steve - your experiences make me glad i was never good at faith.
Richard, you said

But it doesn't make me feel any better...

Do you mean something akin to homesickness by this?
Coming to the non-belief in God, but... aregument, we know an Iranian lass here. She loves our daughter and so got to know us. Non-religious, drinks, eats pork, has boyfriends (though none at the moment..seems to be drawn to men who want a good Iranian wife...compliant, invisible, etc, etc). She believes in a god - not sure what, but a higher power. Think the fact that both me and my wife were totally god-free was a bit of a shock.