1301. The New Atheists

Comment #16465 by Logicel on January 6, 2007 at 5:18 pm

"...Prof. Cox to my mind, no matter how much one might disagree with his beliefs, at the very least has the honesty, strength of character and belief to plainly say that "God" is outside the realms of the mundane and does not need to be or even could be proven." (bold face is mine)
______

Resorting clearly and plainly to that ploy of God being outside the realms of the mudane is very common. Religites say what Cox said frequently. It is the basis of their insisting that their religious superstitions must not be criticized based on no evidence for such religious superstitions in the real world. That aspect of supporters of religious superstitions' was thoroughly discussed in TGD, forming a major thrust of what Dawkins is trying confront--that religious superstitions are not beyond criticism just because it resides outside the world of the mundane. This has been the reliable and predictable cloak of intellectual dishonesty of supporters of religious superstitions--it is as common as rain.

1302. Secular fundamentalists are the new totalitarians

Comment #16322 by Logicel on January 6, 2007 at 4:15 am

Pilot22A wrote: "Once again, the last refuge of the believer in supernaturalism is to attack, and this is a quite good attack. This guy is not a "moron" and this will sit well with his audience."
______

Jones' attack is a dime a dozen. If this mush will sit well with his audience that his audience better be toothless.

1303. Secular fundamentalists are the new totalitarians

Comment #16320 by Logicel on January 6, 2007 at 4:04 am

scottishgeologist, just too marvelous, love Atkinson's opening line, "I was not expecting the Spanish Inquisition."

1304. Executing Saddam Hussein was an Act of Vandalism

Comment #16318 by Logicel on January 6, 2007 at 3:39 am

ronnieharper, I really appreciated your comment. Thanks!

1305. Without God, Gall Is Permitted

Comment #16305 by Logicel on January 6, 2007 at 3:02 am

Jared wrote: "I take it as an insult when someone calls me 'young' as if that invalidates my arguments."

_______

You take it as an insult because it is an insult!

Your blasphemy challenge video is highly regarded--I was unable to rate it or comment because youtube is inconsistent in that regard. I enjoyed it very much. Thanks.

1306. The New Atheists

Comment #16284 by Logicel on January 5, 2007 at 9:07 pm

Religious fundamentalists ironically are easier to deal with--they either want to kill infidels/gloat about their eventual roasting in hell or try to save them. Clear and simple, you know with what you are dealing.

The god apologists, on the other hand, bring to mind that biblical saying about God spewing up the folks that are lukewarm.

1307. Without God, Gall Is Permitted

Comment #16273 by Logicel on January 5, 2007 at 7:15 pm

great comment, wallace, Thanks!

1308. The New Atheists

Comment #16264 by Logicel on January 5, 2007 at 6:45 pm

"It always makes a comeback, I think, when religious people get too arrogant, when they begin to look as though or speak as though they know it all, when they begin to impose themselves in ways that are unwelcome to other people in the society. Then atheism is a kind of, for me, welcome critique of this arrogance."
______

Very interesting comment, seems Cox is apprehensive of his own kind, that faith-based people can get carried away and need constraining. Why not encourage people to be rational in the first place, Cox? Or do you think that religites can just take a little opium and not get addicted?

1309. The New Atheists

Comment #16262 by Logicel on January 5, 2007 at 6:38 pm

"Well, the canons of proof are not applicable to that question, and it's not something that can be proved or disproved."
______

Sorry bud, the burden of proof is on the believers.

1310. The New Atheists

Comment #16261 by Logicel on January 5, 2007 at 6:35 pm

"He takes the most narrow and the most legalistic side of religion and makes that religion, and then he's against it."
____

Dawkins focuses on the very core that is rotten in any religious superstition: encouraging and rewarding people to accept beliefs based solely on faith. His focus is neither narrow or irrelevant to all religions regardless to whichever degree of intensity they are practiced.

1311. The New Atheists

Comment #16259 by Logicel on January 5, 2007 at 6:30 pm

"He suffered an assassination attempt in Rome and attributed his survival to the intervention of Our Lady of Fatima. A maternal hand guided the bullet. One cannot help wondering why she didn't guide it to miss him altogether."
______

A quick, penetrating wit is charming. Oh wait a minute, then I guess Dawkins can't be a new atheist then? Drat, too bad, because he would be able to do alot for us.

1312. Without God, Gall Is Permitted

Comment #16258 by Logicel on January 5, 2007 at 6:23 pm

"Without God, Gall Is Permitted"
_____

And with God, ignorance is encouraged and rewarded.

1313. Without God, Gall Is Permitted

Comment #16257 by Logicel on January 5, 2007 at 6:16 pm

It will be non-theists of ALL AGES working and organizing and supporting each other that will achieve success.

1314. Without God, Gall Is Permitted

Comment #16256 by Logicel on January 5, 2007 at 6:15 pm

As scooternyc covered the grounds concerning the stupidity of bringing the age of someone as a considering point as to the maturity of language that is used in expressing oneself, I, as an old fart that champions youth will just say, Kudos scooternyc!

1315. Without God, Gall Is Permitted

Comment #16253 by Logicel on January 5, 2007 at 6:10 pm

It seems the apologists are getting what the new atheists are about--they just don't like it!

Non-theists are organizing and will lobby--which is an important departure from the 'old' atheists' way of doing things.

What's the matter, you 'charming' apologists, don't you want us atheists to be represented in society? Don't you want us to be honest and clear that we are fed up with superstitions being paraded as something valuable and useful to humanity?

Yup, the apologists are getting what the new atheists are about.

1316. Without God, Gall Is Permitted

Comment #16252 by Logicel on January 5, 2007 at 6:04 pm

"The new atheists fail too often simply for want of charm or skill."
_____

And the 'old' charming atheists succeeded?

1317. Atheists challenge the religious right

Comment #16147 by Logicel on January 5, 2007 at 2:00 am

Several posters at this site have commented on how the power of the Web is assisting in getting the nontheist stance out and about:


http://businesslogs.com/web_20/digg_and_youtube_powering_atheism_20.php

1318. Atheists challenge the religious right

Comment #16146 by Logicel on January 5, 2007 at 1:54 am

MeIM, Thanks very much for that link to a video showing Wafa Sultan's majesty of passionate, articulate secular humanism. Now, that is real righteousness!

I have bookmarked it, and will link to it when Christians bleat that only the 'gentle' Christians are being taken out to the nontheist--I prefer this term also over atheist--woodshed for an 'undeserved' whipping.

1319. Executing Saddam Hussein was an Act of Vandalism

Comment #15957 by Logicel on January 4, 2007 at 1:51 am

Denoir wrote: "These are of course extremely complicated questions and the answer won't of course be as trivial as a "dictator gene". However, if we wish to know it, we can't destroy it as we are destroying valuable information that could lead to future prevention. If we know the mechanisms then we can do something about it."
_______

I have recently watched a video on google of Charlie Rose interviewing E.O. Wilson and James Watson. Watson said that the last great revolution in biology was the merging of chemistry with biology, and that the up and coming one will be the merging of psychology with biology.

Also, brain imaging techniques which are available now were not present during Hilter's time. And more such tools to understand how the brain works will be created.

However, this approach is not easily accepted by the average person. I think of how native Americans hated and fought the analysis of their ancestor's bones. On one level, I agreed and was as equally horrified, and on another less emotive level, I was horrified that we, as a collective species, were denied access to invaluable information.

Though strongly provocative, I am supportive of Dawkins stating his viewpoint concerning this controversial aspect which will be inevitably discussed more and more as time goes on.

1320. What are you optimistic about? Why?

Comment #15767 by Logicel on January 2, 2007 at 6:02 pm

"And I am optimistic that this final scientific enlightenment will deal an overdue deathblow to religion and other juvenile superstitions." (boldface is mine)
___________

What adjectives can be used to modify superstitions without being superfluous? Certainly not negative, silly, nonsensical, unrealistic, or unfounded. The only adjectives that I can think of that are not superfluous but are descriptive are religious and non-religious (ex. not walking under a ladder, regarding a black cat crossing your path as being either good or bad luck--depending on the culture, etc,) To what purpose does modifying superstitions with juvenile serve? The implication being risked here is that it is okay for juveniles to have superstitions while it is not for adults, or that juveniles tend to have superstitions.

1321. God's Enemies Are More Honest Than His Friends

Comment #15416 by Logicel on December 31, 2006 at 5:53 am

JohnC, Here is a very relevant quote from the Wikipedian entry on Piaget:

In Conversations with Jean Piaget, he says: "Education, for most people, means trying to lead the child to resemble the typical adult of his society . . . but for me and no one else, education means making creators. . . . You have to make inventors, innovators—not conformists," (Bringuier, 1980, p.132). His influence on education was not long lasting or profound, however. This was perhaps because his theory is not well taught in educational colleges and text books, and perhaps because his model of the child's development implied a far more radical transformation of the education system than was acceptable. (boldface is mine)

Adults resist regarding children as full fledged humans with the potential to do anything. Adults seem to think that their version of what they consider to be 'childhood' is precious and must be protected and prolonged--though this concept is relatively recent in human history. Adults need to have their consciousness raised regarding children just like racists/sexists had to have their consciousness raised. And if I seem to be a little tough on the Santa lie, it is because when I witness parents doing the Santa routine, all I see is an empty, meaningless routine that at the very least is neutral and at the very most, harmful to the mental/moral development of the child.

Children thrive on parental attention--why do hard-working parents spending time, effort, money in perpetrating the Santa myth deny the knowledge to their children that they are the ones that are paying attention to the children, why do they willingly give Santa credit for the extremely valuable and much needed parental attention of which they are in reality bestowing upon their children?

1322. How Old is the Grand Canyon? Park Service Won't Say

Comment #15287 by Logicel on December 30, 2006 at 6:56 am

I see that Nikki's great link has been posted separately for discussion.

This a great sentence: "As one park geologist said, this is equivalent of Yellowstone National Park selling a book entitled Geysers of Old Faithful: Nostrils of Satan," Ruch added, pointing to the fact that previous NPS leadership ignored strong protests from both its own scientists and leading geological societies against the agency approval of the creationist book. "

I remembered my family trip to the Grand Canyon decades ago when I was a kid, and how the scientific presentation of geologic facts were exhilarating to me and influenced my becoming an amateur geologist when I reached adolescence. To think that now children going to that same wonderful site are slapped in the face with crap, like a book on creationism and its idiotic interpretation of geological time, makes me profoundly sad.

The geologists that have to endure this nonsense must have joined that group of scientists--an article was listed at this site concerning this banding of scientists against the misusing of governmental funds to hold back the advancement of science. Being an American, with litigious blood cells rampaging in my arteries, I hope eventually the Grand Canyon scientists sue their employers for abuse in the workplace.

1323. God's Enemies Are More Honest Than His Friends

Comment #15282 by Logicel on December 30, 2006 at 6:30 am

JohnC, Just because this is an atheistic forum, does not mean that no matter how clear one is, one is not going to get misconstrued.

I wanted just to tie in a few loose ends. On many threads at this forum, people have stated that it is important that we focus on children's education, because once a child is taught that it is ok to accept faith as a basis for belief, than that child is on the way of becoming a faith-based adult, whether that belief eventually embraces a traditional religion or a new age one. And once that happens, then it very hard for them to become deconverted.

Several of us have discussed that critical thinking is not encouraged for a child to learn how to do, at family or at schools. And though we may see the utility in teaching children how to critically think, we in practice, as adults, continue to coddle kids as if they cannot learn how to critically think, and then we have the gall to wonder why adults do not do a very good job of it.

1324. God's Enemies Are More Honest Than His Friends

Comment #15274 by Logicel on December 30, 2006 at 5:30 am

JohnC, I did not say that Santa has anything to do with religion, and I did not advocate the challenging of Santa be strewn across any rallying atheistic banner. My religious parents made it clear that Santa did not exist, so I do not have believing in Santa connected with religion in my mind or my experience.

My opinion about challenging the Santa tradition is based on my insistence that children are full-fledged human beings, and they are often not treated that way, as if their humanity is not potent enough just because they are young and inexperienced. I am a champion of youth rights (http://youthrights.org/), and this championship is based on my own very still sharp memory of how I was treated as a child--as I am fond of describing it, since I am a female, I was treated a bit more severely than the male children who were 1/2 human while I was apparently 1/4 human. Dawkins, himself, in TGD says that parents needs to encourage children to disagree with them.

The foundations upon which fantasy is based are certainly borrowed from the adult world. My point is that the child needs to be encouraged to choose which foundations on which he/she wants to build their own fantasies. Fantasies can be not only shared with others, but they can come into being collectively. And the Santa one does not have a monopoly on those aspects.

I would like to take this opportunity to mention that some users of this site of like mind have come together to discuss a kids self-education project:

http://www.richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4515

As for cautioning me in my use of memes, I will certainly take heed of such caution and add to the already existing caution that I have about using memes to get my point across!

1325. God's Enemies Are More Honest Than His Friends

Comment #15260 by Logicel on December 30, 2006 at 3:26 am

JohnC, I am being serious about the Santa meme. Though I was told by my parents that Santa does not exist, I was encouraged to use my imagination, and write fiction, put on family theatre, write poems, draw and paint, run through the sand dunes at our summer shack, with a towel tied to my neck, imitating superman. My childhood was rich with fantasy in which I played an active role--it was not fantasy spoon fed to my by adults that have no idea what fantasies in which I would like indulge myself.

I am rereading Blackmore's The Meme Machine, and I do agree with her that memes replicate for their own selfish need to reproduce themselves. And as I am able to transcend my human selfish genes and not just propagate myself via the genetic direction, I also make it a point for me to transcend consciously certain memes, and to choose to aid that meme replication that I decide has some advantage to myself and society. And the Santa meme is not one of them.

1326. God's Enemies Are More Honest Than His Friends

Comment #15252 by Logicel on December 30, 2006 at 1:46 am

jhb90277, Thanks for your considered and thoughtful comment.

Challenging the Santa meme, especially because this particular fantasy can be directed towards children so they will toe the parental line--get rewarded if they are obedient--is something I do as much is possible. Just as I will no longer remain silent when supporters of religious superstitions drone on and on about their supersitious beliefs, I will no longer be quiet concerning the using of the Santa meme. My challenging this particular meme is to encourage people to think about it and encourage discussion regarding it, and not necessarily to stop practicing it right away.

The actual practice of this Santa fantasy differs. Just like Richard Dawkin's exposure to the religious meme was not as viral as it can be, so is the exposure to the Santa meme--sounds like your familial practice is of the less virulent kind.

1327. God's Enemies Are More Honest Than His Friends

Comment #15251 by Logicel on December 30, 2006 at 1:33 am

Nikki, Thanks for this link:

http://www.peer.org/news/news_id.php?row_id=801
________

This a great sentence: "As one park geologist said, this is equivalent of Yellowstone National Park selling a book entitled Geysers of Old Faithful: Nostrils of Satan," Ruch added, pointing to the fact that previous NPS leadership ignored strong protests from both its own scientists and leading geological societies against the agency approval of the creationist book. "

I remembered my family trip to the Grand Canyon decades ago when I was a kid, and how the scientific presentation of geologic facts were exhilarating to me and influenced my becoming an amateur geologist when I reached adolescence. To think that now children going to that same wonderful site are slapped in the face with crap, like a book on creationism and its idiotic interpretation of geological time, makes me profoundly sad.

The geologists that have to endure this nonsense must have joined that group of scientists--an article was listed at this site concerning this banding of scientists against the misusing of governmental funds to hold back the advancement of science. Being an American, with litigious blood cells rampaging in my arteries, I hope eventually the Grand Canyon scientists sue their employers for abuse in the workplace.

1328. God's Enemies Are More Honest Than His Friends

Comment #15221 by Logicel on December 29, 2006 at 5:56 pm

Why does a child having an imaginary friend worries their parents and psychologists as a compelling problem with which to deal while a child believing in an imaginary Santa does not?

Is a child lying to itself when it creates an imaginary friend? No. Is a parent lying to a child when they teach their child to believe in imaginary beings in whom they themselves do not believe? Yes.

If parents truly want to have magically special times with their children, can't they come up with something better than this particular meme of Santa? Can't they encourage the development of imagination in their children without resorting to lies. Of course they can!

1329. 10 myths - and 10 truths - about atheism

Comment #15211 by Logicel on December 29, 2006 at 2:38 pm

Aussie said, "I find that the most heart warming section of this whole website is Convert's Corner - easily accessed from the left margin of the front page. Do visit it if you have not yet done so. To see so many people throwing off the shackles of fear and superstition and regaining their lives as a result of reading Richard's books is a pleasure to behold."
_____

People like David are working hard unknowingly to help deconvert people. He is a positive force for deconversion. But I guess if he does become deconverted himself, there will be plenty of David clones that will fit the bill for promoting the continuing deconversion of supporters of religious superstition. So our 'cause' could withstand the sacrifice of David becoming deconverted!

The saying, that a pickpocket when seeing Jesus will only see his pockets, can be applied to David's response to the Convert's corner at this site: All that courage, intelligence, and all that positiveness saddens David?

And in typical David fashion, he thinks that the majority of the converts are not Christian? Most of the testimonials are from people who once believed deeply in Jesus. David does not pay attention to what people are saying and writing. He misconstrues content fairly 'religiously.'

1330. 10 myths - and 10 truths - about atheism

Comment #15205 by Logicel on December 29, 2006 at 2:04 pm

Billy Sands said, "It is funny, no matter how irretreviably you think you are down the atheistic path, someone like David comes along and makes you realise that it is possible to be convinced even more that christianity is totally wrong. thanks Dave."
_______

If only the discussion threads monopolized by David and the responses to his posts could be published, I think Christianity would vanish!

I agree with you absolutely regarding that reading David's comments gives a boost to why we are atheists and why we are vocal ones.

1331. God's Enemies Are More Honest Than His Friends

Comment #15202 by Logicel on December 29, 2006 at 1:46 pm

BeyondBelief said, "I explained to him that what he believes is between him and his family and that he cannot share that with other people."
_______

So then all the god botherers should not discuss their beliefs outside their families?

I am very interested in how you handled this, in terms of speaking to your son and getting back to his teacher.

1332. Woman beaten on Jerusalem bus for refusing to move to rear seat

Comment #15146 by Logicel on December 29, 2006 at 5:29 am

Stewart said, "On the school segregation issue, one might add that the all-male study environments of the ultra-Orthodox are rumoured to lead to more homosexuality than would otherwise manifest itself (the need for physical contact often wins out over all other taboos and when there is no one of the opposite sex around...), which then runs afoul of yet another biblical injunction."
_______

And because believers are prohibited by their faith to question anything about said faith, they stay mired in a situation that their own faith says is sinful.

1333. Woman beaten on Jerusalem bus for refusing to move to rear seat

Comment #15145 by Logicel on December 29, 2006 at 5:27 am

Perhaps a letter to Miriam should be written by atheists in the lines of the one that was written to Ted Haggard?

http://letter2ted.org/Default.aspx

1334. A Christmas thunderbolt for the arch-enemy of religion

Comment #15144 by Logicel on December 29, 2006 at 5:11 am

Percy Walker wrote The Moviegoer in which was featured a fictional character, Binx Bolling.

Here is an excerpt from the Wikipedian entry on Walker: "He devoted his literary life to the exploration of "the dislocation of man in the modern age,"[1] and his work exhibited a unique combination of existentialism, southern sensibility, and deeply-felt Catholicism."

I am sure many know who Binx Bolling is, but I did not, so I am just including it here for some who may have not known about Binx and his creator.

1335. A Christmas thunderbolt for the arch-enemy of religion

Comment #15140 by Logicel on December 29, 2006 at 5:02 am

Kingasaurus said, "If there is an evolutionary reason why the grouper doesn't devour the small cleaner fish once it finishes cleaning inside the grouper's mouth, it really isn't a big stretch to look for biological reasons why hypothetical societies which would allow anarchical murder and wanton, purposeless destruction just because its members "feel like doing it" just aren't going to be very successful."
_________

And that is why the majority of humanity are not psychopaths.

As I have said many times before, the discourse at RichardDawkins.Net is of consistently high quality, and I thank all who contribute their time and mental energies in doing so, and I thank the creators and managers of this marvelous site. Us atheistic 'cats' have managed to create a flourishing community. Kudos to everyone involved.

1336. Fallen Angels Assault: Heaven at Christmas

Comment #15003 by Logicel on December 28, 2006 at 3:44 am

Denoir said, "I therefore think that "love" (which is implied in patriotism) is a very wrong term to use to express approval of the society you live in."
____

Growing up in New York City, I was exposed to many different nationalities, and of course, many Americans still retain some of the cultural customs of the countries from which they emigrated. As some posters have previously pointed out that once they knew of the existence of different religions, they began to question their own as why it should be the one and only true one. Being exposed to people who identified with other nationalities, did the same thing for me and patriotism.

I encouraged myself to pinpoint the workable aspects of a group of citizens, and for me it is capitalism, secular government, democracy, and adherence to Law.

Other aspects--which I enjoy immensely in the French version--like beauty and variety of the landscape, culinary heights, the kissing of cheeks and shaking of hands, the shrugging of shoulders when one is perplexed, the melange of the 'hot' southern European culture with the cooler northern cultural aspects, and the appreciation of good conversation can fine tune and custom make the societal fit to oneself.

1337. How the Great Atheist got polite society standing

Comment #14998 by Logicel on December 28, 2006 at 2:16 am

"The whole religious complexion of the modern world is due to the absence from Jerusalem of a Lunatic Asylum."
______

Also because there was no medication for psychiatric problems available then:

I saw a version of The Ten Commandments on French TV recently.

A glaring aspect of the Hebrews as presented in that film was that they were Egyptian slaves that slavishly followed Moses and Moses' God, and then slavishly worshipped the Golden Calf when Moses took a short break from them (and I don't blame him that he did), and then went back slavishly following Moses and his God.

Meanwhile Moses was in constant agony because of such activities as advocating stoning and the throwing of the first stone (to set a good example for his 'slaves') at a couple of his good friends, the killing of his Egyptian 'brother' by his God's miracle of the parting of the waters, and the killing of this same 'brother's' firstborn, again by one of Moses' God's miracles.

I could not take it any more, I stood up screaming at the screen, "Get this guy, Moses, some friggin' Prosac, please!!!!!!

1338. 10 myths - and 10 truths - about atheism

Comment #14942 by Logicel on December 27, 2006 at 2:57 am

Sancus, I was unable to locate that forum thread, so I will discuss lucid dreaming a little bit here.

Looking up the definition of lucid dreaming, I realized that a psychologist describing my waking state where I had a difficult time understanding that what took place in my dream was not real is not considered to be lucid dreaming. What! Can an expert be wrong? He apparently thought that lucid dreaming is when the dream is particularily 'real'.

Lucid dreaming as defined in Wikipedia is when you are conscious of dreaming. Doesn't everybody do that? (I hope that made you laugh!) Seriously, most of my dreams are lucid then. I suspect that I taught myself how to lucidly dream when I was a kid. I needed to be conscious during dreaming in order to stop wetting my bed in my sleep.

I definitely think that there are different levels, styles, and abilities regarding consciousness.

The Economist in its recent issues discusses how developments in neuroscience--in which I am very interested in--are challenging the notion of free will and choice and thereby really shaking up law and religion. Remember S. Harris is an neuroscientist.

Second Life, the web based virtual reality is interesting in this regard. Though resisting it at first, I then realized that it was very mentally and creatively stimulating.

I am sorry I cannot do justice to all the issues you have raised in this short reply. Point me to the forum thread where this is being discussed, and perhaps I can go into more detail.

1339. Fallen Angels Assault: Heaven at Christmas

Comment #14862 by Logicel on December 26, 2006 at 4:47 am

Briancoughlanworldcitizen, said, "Nationalisim, is arguably a far more pernicious form of delusion than religion, and you seem to be suffering from a full blown infection. Take your atheist skepticisim and apply it to your nationalisim, see how you get on.

For the record, applying my skeptical view of nationalisim to my religious convictions, was one of the primary hammer blows to deconstructing my religious faith. Maybe it can work both ways?:-)
_____

Briancoughlandworldcitizen, I remember about 15 years ago when I first moved to Europe from America, I bought and wore a tee-shirt with the slogan, 'world citizen.'

I am enjoying this discussion between Denoir and Sancus, and hope it continues as long as they are interested in doing so. I am learning about these two different viewpoints a bit more, and I appreciate their time and efforts in discussing them.

I, myself, am pretty tough in general on patriotic Americans, as they do seem to be reliqious and unthinking in their style of patriotism expressed by such sayings as, 'We are going to kick ass', America is the Greatest Country (sort of like Allah is great), etc. These kinds of posters abound in many discussion forums. So it is rare and scintillating to encounter a thoughtful patriot like Sancus. Apparently they do exist.

My atheism and my primary identity being that of a New Yorker (the rest of America always seemed foreign to me, and America to me is basically the American Constitution so I do not have a strong identity based on its people, culture, or land). Why that is, I have no idea, but that is how it turned out for me. So as I travelled and lived in other countries, I became less and less nationalistic, that is, in my nationality as a New Yorker, well, really, a Manhattanite. However, I am still heavily influenced by western civilization, so I am far from being a world citizen in my mind and heart, but I am trying.

The Middle East and the Far East (Chinese and Eqyptian cultures) influenced the development of western civilization, and despite of that--as I am fond of saying--it seems that many vocal Americans and I can add, Europeans, think that their country(ries) popped out fully developed from the void in a similar fashion as Athena popped out, fully formed, from the head of Zeus.

1340. Fallen Angels Assault: Heaven at Christmas

Comment #14861 by Logicel on December 26, 2006 at 4:17 am

Sancus said, "I've had to live in a homeless shelter myself. One of the worst experiences of my life, not just for the obvious loss of dignity, but because it was a Christian homeless shelter."
_______

Forgive me, Sancus, but that made me laugh so hard it hurt! Such is the bitter-sweetness of life. And since I gave you a chuckle with my coining, 'a bouquet of atheists', YOU OWED ME!

1341. 10 myths - and 10 truths - about atheism

Comment #14859 by Logicel on December 26, 2006 at 3:36 am

Sancus, I go through periods of having lucid dreams, lasting usually several months--the last one was about 3 years ago. I have to spend about an hour convincing myself that the lucid dream is only a dream after I wake up. So, yes, I seem to have a penchant for experiencing lucid dreaming.

Have you read The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind by Julian Jaynes? RD actually referred to it in TGD, saying that--I am paraphasing here--it is either a work of genius or of a nutter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Jaynes

1342. A Christmas thunderbolt for the arch-enemy of religion

Comment #14787 by Logicel on December 25, 2006 at 4:41 am

Circulation for mainstream journalistic vehicles are diminishing along with attendance in traditional churches (pentecostal and evangelical churches in Kenya, Brazil, America are not traditional). I wonder why? Is there something these traditional purveyors of journalism and church services are not getting? Something they have in common? Something they are not willing to provide for their customers?

1343. 10 myths - and 10 truths - about atheism

Comment #14784 by Logicel on December 25, 2006 at 4:33 am

Sancus said, "Just throwing out ideas now... Perhaps these assumptions serve a psychological purpose, for if our dreams were freely allowed to intersect with our waking consciousness, we would be close to hallucinating beasts. Spiritual people may be trying, if somewhat aimlessly, to find other intuitive assumptions that help re-separate spiritual experience in a more beneficial way (e.g. for more creativity and imaginative capacity). What other benefits could be in store, when purely atheistic intuitive assumptions are combined with those more beneficial spiritual ones?"

______

What can I say? Sancus, we are ames soeurs. I brought this connection up between imagination and spirituality and the need to harvest it for better purposes a month or so ago on an earlier discussion thread here, and no one ran with the ball, so I let it go.

1344. 10 myths - and 10 truths - about atheism

Comment #14782 by Logicel on December 25, 2006 at 4:24 am

Aussie, below are the HTML codes you can use for bolding, italicizing, etc.:

http://www.w3schools.com/tags/

You can also press the control key and the letter u to see what HTLM codes are being used in posts (so you can copy them yourself). After pressing the control key and the letter u, select 'find on this page' (to get to the code you want to identify that is being used)

1345. CBC Segment on Evangelist Christians

Comment #14607 by Logicel on December 23, 2006 at 4:15 pm

Edutheria, Thanks for the link to the Milton Friedman's series. My husband downloaded the entire series just in case they are eventually no longer offered. I know little details about Friedman's economic stance--just know that he is a super duper free market proponent. I saw the first episode and have a few questions. I will go and bug you at your blog! Thanks again for the heads up for the M. Friedman's video series.

1346. CBC Segment on Evangelist Christians

Comment #14603 by Logicel on December 23, 2006 at 3:54 pm

Jared, Thanks for taking the time for such a well though out post. I appreciate it. It is my perception that many threads at this site go off topic so I encourage this topic to continue here by interested parties. So far, it seems only JohnC is being conducive to seriously represent the socialistic viewpoint. I hope he continues, as I have alot to learn from both sides.

Experts in the forum? That really threw me for a loop.

1347. CBC Segment on Evangelist Christians

Comment #14473 by Logicel on December 22, 2006 at 3:15 pm

Blaine, Do you regard wealth creation as important? If so, how do you suggest motivating its creation? If you do not regard wealth creation as important, why not?

This discussion on free markets versus socialism has been very lively but polite and civil, with great emphasis on providing reasons and supports for stated viewpoints, so please go easy on judgemental adjectives and nouns like naive and evangelism. I am enjoying this discussion very much, and I want it to continue in a civil manner.

1348. It is possible to respect the believers but not the belief

Comment #14397 by Logicel on December 22, 2006 at 9:16 am

"A multicultural society can, at best, be an open, friendly competition between Christians, Sikhs, Muslims, Jews, atheists and, indeed, two-plus-two-equals-fivers, to impress us with their character and good works."
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I worked at a university law library in NYC for many years, and my colleages during that time could have been mistaken for the United Nations a few blocks away--and many religions were represented, Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddism, and Islam. And we all had the good sense to make sure that our workplace was secular. During Xmas, there would be secular Christmas decorations and there would be a big serve-yourself banquet. And still no one talked of religion because religion was properly regarded as an activity to practice in private by all. Though we knew of each others' religious affiliations, and sometimes among close colleagues we teased each other based on this knowledge which was always taken in stride as long as it was friendly and affectionate teasing.

Would I now act differently because I have embraced the new atheism? Well, I am certainly more articulate concerning atheism, and I would use my judgement as to when and where I would challenge the concept of faith. I had, back then, had many one-to-one conversations with believers, where I just stated that I had no need for religion. But now, I would, in those one-to-one situations, emphasize that I now accept that the encouraging of faith, because it is based on the assumption that it must just be accepted and not be questioned, has been, is, and will be dangerous to humanity.

1349. The Blasphemy Challenge

Comment #14385 by Logicel on December 22, 2006 at 8:23 am

"So far I have read post after post explaining why,..."

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There is no excuse then for peterg to be so dense as not to understand correctly what posters here are posting--he is doing the old twisting, intellectually dishonest route thing, so after giving him several opportunities to be intellectually honest, I am suggesting for him to be trollized.

1350. Richard Dawkins on the Mike Dickin Show

Comment #14373 by Logicel on December 22, 2006 at 7:06 am

Aussie, How interesting that you are a developer of stockmarket technical analysis software! I am a daytrader by profession, and use technical analysis in my trading. In my community of daytraders, our emphasis is primarily on risk management, positive expectancy, and consistently following an edge. We rely upon ourselves via intentional learning to improve that existing edge. We criticize any trader that is looking for the technical 'holy grail', and I am particularily scathing in that regard--poor newbies!

Regarding your wanting to spend time on investigating your own premonitions, makes sense to me. Once, I had a very close friend whom I knew and trusted for many years, bend a spoon with his mind. He insisted that he did not knowingly bend the spoon, and that he thought perhaps he had unconsciously bent the spoon. But he called to my attention that the spoon was hot, and after checking, I could feel that it was. So, a mystery there for me. For my premonitions that I have experienced, I could always find a very logical explanation based on pattern recognition for them.