Comments by decius

1301. Richard Dawkins branded 'secularist bigot' by veteran philosopher

Comment #224433 by decius on August 5, 2008 at 1:16 am

Mphil,

welcome back.

Comment #223778 by decius on August 3, 2008 at 12:11 pm

Comment #223772 by Steve Zara
Comment #223774 by Oystein Elgaroy

I share your pain. I learned 3D on 3d Studio Max which won't run on anything else except Win and Mac.
On a Mac, most plug-ins won't work.
Here I am, stuck with the worst OS in human history for the foreseeable future.

1303. Evangelically Serious Science

Comment #223770 by decius on August 3, 2008 at 11:57 am

Comment #223765 by Steve Zara

Enough with all that multi-platformism nonsense. This is a windowsian nation.

1304. Charlie Brooker's screen burn

Comment #223741 by decius on August 3, 2008 at 10:18 am

Steve,

it seems that RD.net is having an additional problem of dns, or something. I made a couple of attempt to connect in the past 30 hours to no avail, but I could reach it through the mobile phone browser.

Then I configured the router to use a subnet mask, and it worked again.
It appears that whole areas of Europe are unable to connect directly.
Should I message Josh?

1305. Richard Dawkins branded 'secularist bigot' by veteran philosopher

Comment #223727 by decius on August 3, 2008 at 9:50 am

Comment #223433 by Quiddam

Sorry, I meant to write "his scholarship" instead of "your scholarship".
I have now removed the mistaken line.

Your point was clear and I was agreeing with ya.

1306. What's wrong with science as religion

Comment #223440 by decius on August 2, 2008 at 9:23 am

Comment #223293 by epeeist

Beethoven late string quartets, and op. 131 in particular. In my opinion one of the most sublime pieces of music ever written.

Absolutely, what's your favourite recording of LvB's quartets?

BTW, yesterday we threw a party for a prominent Israeli cellist and his girlfriend, who is a jazz flautist. Prior that I managed to drink them both under the sofa, he played a Bach suite for us. It's incredible how much better a string instrument sounds when live.

1307. Richard Dawkins branded 'secularist bigot' by veteran philosopher

Comment #223425 by decius on August 2, 2008 at 9:05 am

Oystein took the idea of "the new poster boy for atheism" literally. :)

1308. Richard Dawkins branded 'secularist bigot' by veteran philosopher

Comment #223414 by decius on August 2, 2008 at 8:45 am

Comment #223411 by Quiddam

Flew is claiming a scientific argument based on information provided by Varghese, Schroeder, Leftow, Swinburne

Varghese and Swinburne could inform a scientific argument with the same competence of a troupe of bozos tackling QM.

1309. Breeding for God

Comment #223407 by decius on August 2, 2008 at 8:23 am

Comment #223393 by hawt4dawk

In my family going back three generations, there were 12-17 kids in every family.

That seems quite correct.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meerkat#Reproduction

1310. Breeding for God

Comment #222652 by decius on July 31, 2008 at 4:37 pm

Comment #222647 by Goldy

I think you should see it for yourself, I couldn't believe my eyes and ears. They don't even care to veil the most appalling threats, as they assume that no "kufar" will hear.
Arguably, the translation of Arabic parts is accurate, since no one complained about its quality.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2668560761490749816

1311. Breeding for God

Comment #222645 by decius on July 31, 2008 at 4:31 pm

Comment #222641 by Steve Zara

Such as rastamen with pot? :)

1312. Breeding for God

Comment #222638 by decius on July 31, 2008 at 4:26 pm

Comment #222636 by Goldy

Freedom of speech.

Nope, incitement to commit murder and other serious crimes. Isn't it a felony in the UK, as well?

1313. Breeding for God

Comment #222635 by decius on July 31, 2008 at 4:23 pm

Comment #222633 by Laurie Fraser

It won't be this mission, though, even if the bugs are indeed there. Phoenix's instruments aren't designed for life detection.

1314. Breeding for God

Comment #222629 by decius on July 31, 2008 at 4:18 pm

Comment #222627 by Goldy

I hope that you are right. As I see it, there are serious double-standards. I watched some undercover report filmed in British mosques, truly appalling.
No one except religious nuts would normally be allowed to publicly voice such extreme views.

1315. Breeding for God

Comment #222628 by decius on July 31, 2008 at 4:14 pm

Off topic- Nasa's Phoenix Mars lander spacecraft identifies water in a sample of soil collected on the planet for the first time.

1316. Breeding for God

Comment #222623 by decius on July 31, 2008 at 3:59 pm

Comment #222619 by Steve Zara

If there are people who threaten society, there are civilized ways to deal with them. Use the democratic process to make such threats illegal, then use the courts to sentence such people and apply the appropriate measures, such as fines or imprisonment.

Indeed.
Still, I find current laws generally too weak and ill-prepared to deal with fundamentalism. Also the political will is seriously lacking.

I would be prepared to support a piece of legislation designed to confront the problem of rabble-rousing imams and to shut down mosques repeatedly used as launch-pads for violence and hate-speech.

BTW, this would be nothing new, in principle. Similar rules are already in place against drug trafficking. Vehicles used for smuggling are routinely seized, as well as property used for stashing contraband.

1317. Breeding for God

Comment #222569 by decius on July 31, 2008 at 2:39 pm

Comment #222546 by Fanusi Khiyal

Hitler, was an Islam-loving socialist.

If a national-socialist is a socialist, then potassium cyanide is potassium.

1318. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222550 by decius on July 31, 2008 at 2:20 pm

Comment #222504 by hawt4dawk

That freaks me out, really.

Was it in some ultra-conservative state, if I may ask?

1319. What's wrong with science as religion

Comment #222470 by decius on July 31, 2008 at 1:02 pm

Comment #222464 by Oystein Elgaroy

It was privately revealed to me by the foremost authority on alien civilisations, Richard Hoagland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_C._Hoagland#Claims

1320. What's wrong with science as religion

Comment #222454 by decius on July 31, 2008 at 12:43 pm

Comment #222444 by Oystein Elgaroy

As a dogmatic scientist, you are part of the conspiracy to conceal other ways of knowing from the people.
And as a cosmologist, you are absconding evidence of the existence of alien civilisations.

I wouldn't trust your word in this thread.

1321. Breeding for God

Comment #222418 by decius on July 31, 2008 at 12:23 pm

Comment #222401 by Fanusi Khiyal

If it's choice between expelling those who voluntarily embrace a fascist and totalitarian ideology and watching the destruction of Europe

What a thundering false dichotomy, mate.

1322. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222371 by decius on July 31, 2008 at 9:56 am

Comment #222370 by al-rawandi

Sometimes my curisoty is a bit pedantic.

Excess of granola in your diet. :)

1323. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222363 by decius on July 31, 2008 at 9:28 am

So are you saying there is no point in speculating on the ancient origins of why homosexuality came to be such a hot topic even in today's political climate as a result of religious hatred of it?

No, I am saying that we have little chance to answer it with certitude because of the fragmented historical record. Evolutionary psychology is facing similar difficulty of general acceptance: too much speculation and too little evidence.
Surely, we can speculate and attempt to approach an answer.

it does more to dislodge the entrenched notion that there really is something morally reprehensible about it.

May be. I think that notion has already been proved morally bankrupt and unscientific.
We also know that homophobic religions have been the cause of its spreading for the past 2500 years.

Let's take the example of an hypothetical chain-letter causing widespread damage to society. If you want to stop its spreading, it is of little help to attempt and find which dead person originated it and why.

It seems more reasonable to intercept all travelling copies and to forbid further attempts to create more of the same, while teaching the public why the letter is harmful.

create homosexuality as a punishable offence so you can seize their wealth!

That's exactly what I meant.

It doesn't need to be necessarily so, though.

We have other egregious examples of absurd notions originated from a chaste of clergymen which cost as much as the destruction of entire cultures, not of just a minority of people within the community.
See Easter Island and the demise of its civilisation.

1324. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222347 by decius on July 31, 2008 at 8:11 am

Comment #222333 by hawt4dawk

I claim no expertise in this field, so take this as a personal opinion.

There may be reasons to believe that environmental pressure and low natality rates have the power to shape the moral zeitgeist of isolated communities. Such is apparently the case with Inuits lending their wives to foreigners in order to boost genetic diversity.

However, with much more complex moral codes, such as that contained in the scriptures, this seems to me too reductionistic an explanation.
The stigma against homosexuality is laid out side by side with equally nonsensical rules against collecting sticks on a Sabbath, shaving one's beard, the making of graven images etc. All of the above warrant similarly draconian punishments.

I think this complexity can be better explained with a self-conceited power-hungry clergy, pulling shit out of their own arse and enshrining it into dogma.
Invent a crime, create a punishable offence and you will be able to lay hands on another man's wife and wealth.

If the newly-created religion is able to take over and spread as a memeplex, the original cause which gave birth to a particular dogma becomes immaterial as to why fresh generations of believers will blindly follow it.

1325. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222281 by decius on July 31, 2008 at 4:49 am

Comment #222249 by Dr Doctor

Thank you.

I wonder if it has to do with going from multiple Gods who had more arguments, dust ups and bad behaviour than your average net forum to one god, and the requirements that "one god" places on "perfection". If indeed it does.

Polytheism - as intended by the Romans - entailed a willingness to accept and accommodate foreign deities, both for philosophical and political reasons, therefore acting as its own remedy against fundamentalism and intolerance.

A practical example is the cult of Isis, which spread in Rome to her full acceptance in the Pantheon of major deities, ostensibly with the building of lavish temples dedicated to her - after the annexation of Egypt.
This willingness to respect and honour foreign beliefs helped secure Egypt against popular revolt, while saving Pharaohs' face.

An interesting mechanism, partly responsible for this liberal attitude, was the idea of the Genius Loci, meaning the personification of rivers mountains etc as minor deities.
Superstition dictated that one had to appease them for good fortune. The unrelenting conquest of new territories involved a constant influx of such deities already worshipped by the conquered tribes.

As a counter-example, when the Romans conquered Giudea were faced (probably for the first time) with a religion unwilling to compromise and have its god ranked equal among other, and this caused their brutal reaction.

In case you don't mind reading in electronic format, Gibbon is no longer covered by copyright and the full text is available here.
http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/25717

1326. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222234 by decius on July 31, 2008 at 2:58 am

Do we know that for a fact?

Yes we do. I can detail it, if you want me to.

Not that I didn't already provide strong references for comparing attitudes toward homosexuality in the ancient world and later in christian Europe, but I am glad to expand on it, if needed.

However, I suggest that you read Gibbon (The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire), particularly the chapter on Constantine. He was the first emperor to convert to christianity, although - contrary to popular belief - not the one who elevated it to state religion. Nevertheless, he began criminalising sexual promiscuity and other "unpious practises" , IMMEDIATELY AFTER his conversion. Read for yourself the description of the ensuing persecutions.

Because it is being used as an excuse. Take away the excuses through force of logic and you reach the inner person. If the inner person is still an irrational, deluded, homophobic "idiot" ( ;-) ), then they are going to have to think a bit for themselves and not prop their own prejudices up on the crutch of an established religion.

I almost entirely agree, there. Still, prejudices are cultural, and if the idiot grew up in hotbed of religious intolerance dominating his culture, you can predict with certainty which prejudices will affect him.

I share your passion for a good argument, and it certainly is a pleasure having it with you.

1327. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222229 by decius on July 31, 2008 at 2:29 am

That sounds again like religion being used as the excuse rather than religion causing the homophobia.

I am not saying that homophobes didn't exist prior to the advent of homophobic religions. Let's not get bogged down in semantics, if possible. What I am saying is that said religions make it acceptable to be one and even demand it, while turning the exception into the norm. History really shows this clearly and beyond dispute.

Flames won't do it, but I can be convinced by evidence of cultures whose widespread homophobia pre-dates the inception of religious homophobic dogma.
Medieval Europe was for its greater part christianised by the sword of Charlesmagne, hardly a free choice of conversion, yet homophobia appears only afterwards.

It also answers it.

Then what are we doing here, fighting against religion? By your reasoning religion could be regarded as exempt from blame in all cases.

Edit- I'll look into the Scottish Play as soon as I have a minute.

1328. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222220 by decius on July 31, 2008 at 1:56 am

Comment #222214 by Dr Doctor

Comment #222216 by Quetzalcoatl

Forgive the lack of clarity, I am at work and I will post shoddily for a while, if at all.

What I meant is that a religion whose tenets include homophobia can historically be shown as the reason for a particular culture to succumb to intolerance toward gay people.

Equally negative and aggressive sentiments can be created almost from scratch against both minority groups and behaviours perceived as eccentric, by channelling religious fervour and by providing metaphysical backing to ingroup-outgroup mentality.

Find me an instance of widespread homophobia in places where no religion demands it from its followers, and I will reconsider.

Please, Doc, provide a link to McDuff, I never heard of him.

Wouldn't it be more logical to say that if there was no mass homophobia, then an homophobic man added homophobic passages into a popular religion, does that make religion the cause?

We all know that religions are man-made, so this begs the question.

1329. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222212 by decius on July 31, 2008 at 12:59 am

Comment #222203 by Dr Doctor

So my question is, is religion the excuse or the cause?
If the cause, why do so many non religious succumb to this mentality?

Religion clearly is the cause of homophobia, and this is very easy to demonstrate. Careful with hasty generalisations: homophobia does not equal demagoguery, although it spreads through it.

Look no further than the greco-roman world, or modern cultures (like Thai) uncontaminated by the abrahamic religions. You shall find that not only was/is homosexuality accepted, but even encouraged to stunning degrees, both in real life and in literature.
(e.g. Hadrian and Antinous, Eurialus and Nisus)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinous

1330. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222095 by decius on July 30, 2008 at 3:08 pm

Comment #222091 by Goldy

I agree, it's entirely immaterial, except for understanding the local history.

The Oetzi fracas was nonsensical.

1331. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222089 by decius on July 30, 2008 at 2:57 pm

Comment #222082 by Goldy

According to the Austrians it was also a case of importing lazy southern Italians to Italianise the region by Il Duce.

That refers to the region of Trentino Alto Adige, which was acquired after WWI as reparation from previous Austrian occupation of the regions of Lombardia and Veneto (it includes Verona), which are ethnically and historically entirely Italian.
Before Caesar conquered and annexed Cisalpine Gaul ( modern-day Northern Italy), the population was Celtic.

You have a point about Italians and Chinese. :)

1332. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222081 by decius on July 30, 2008 at 2:37 pm

Comment #222075 by Goldy

The South and the North East were hugely affected by emigration because of endemic poverty, as you probably know. Nowadays Verona is a hyper-conservative place with draconian "decency" laws.
You can be fined 500 euros just for talking to a prostitute or for drinking outside a bar.

1333. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222071 by decius on July 30, 2008 at 2:22 pm

Comment #222068 by Oystein Elgaroy

I will tell you the whole story when we meet, I promise. You shall be shocked, to say the least.

1334. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222067 by decius on July 30, 2008 at 2:16 pm

Comment #222065 by hawt4dawk

Thank you :)

1335. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222063 by decius on July 30, 2008 at 2:07 pm

Comment #222058 by Steve Zara

I see. I am from the Monferrato area in Piedmont, if that tells you anything.

1336. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222061 by decius on July 30, 2008 at 2:04 pm

Comment #222051 by kkelly

Obviously, it is irrelevant to us too, in the sense that you imply.

Still, it can be interesting to know. Is it difficult to see why?

1337. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222056 by decius on July 30, 2008 at 1:54 pm

Comment #222047 by Steve Zara

That settles it, I think. Giovanni and especially Giorgio were very common names in the territory of the former Republic of Venice (which has ruled over Dalmatia for many centuries), and they still are in modern-day Veneto.

By the way, if the Triple Entente had kept their word at the end of WWI, Zara would still be Italian.

Have you ever visited Italy or Croatia?

1338. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222044 by decius on July 30, 2008 at 1:29 pm

Comment #222038 by Steve Zara

I am probably of Italian ancestry.

If that's the case, be grateful to your ancestors for having migrated away from the Theocratic Vaticalian Republic.

Also, I will refrain from calling you "paisa'" while reaffirming my friendship and respect to you, in spite that you might be a dago, after all. :)

On a serious note. If you want to clear that one up, there are specific DNA analyses for establishing with a degree of certainty the countries of origin of one's ancestry.

1339. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222029 by decius on July 30, 2008 at 1:06 pm

Comment #222025 by al-rawandi

Nope, but I remember an old thread where the hippies got the brunt of your contempt for eating granola and wearing sandals. Two habits that I myself consider distasteful.

I am Italian, but I have been living abroad, in many different countries, for the past 20 years.

Edit - I read Moroccan for Morrocan. I don't know what the latter means. I apologise if I missed your point.

1340. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222021 by decius on July 30, 2008 at 12:58 pm

Comment #222007 by al-rawandi

I have been trying to cut down on the flaming quite a bit

Consider also updating your avatar, substituting the hot-dog with granola.

1341. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222011 by decius on July 30, 2008 at 12:45 pm

Comment #221900 by hawt4dawk

Now we see what Decius is up to. ;)

Oh dear. Caught and exposed by an holy alliance between a zealous meerkat and the islamic police.

Who could have imagined?

BTW Are you free on Friday?

1342. Breeding for God

Comment #221677 by decius on July 30, 2008 at 1:51 am

Comment #221674 by Serdan

A year ago I would have agreed with you. Then I found myself in a position where I had the chance to actually interact with muslims and what I found was that the "moderate muslim" is an oxymoron.

I totally agree. Now for sure we will be branded as xenophobes and racists for stating the obvious.

1343. Breeding for God

Comment #221676 by decius on July 30, 2008 at 1:50 am

Comment #221667 by Old Sarum

As a former advocate of multiculturalism - who had his mind changed by the overwhelming available evidence that there is something intrinsically wrong in the way Europe is handling minorities and integration - may I ask you if among those "millions upon millions of ordinary, civilised human beings" you include those who force the veil upon their womenfolk?

1344. A Holocaust Denier Hits Manhattan (And Hearts Hitchens)

Comment #221328 by decius on July 29, 2008 at 2:03 pm

Blumenthal's animus and unfairness toward Hitchens explained by pettiness.

http://reason.com/blog/show/127786.html

1345. Catholics To Pope: Lift Birth Control Ban

Comment #221318 by decius on July 29, 2008 at 1:57 pm

Gregg!

Welcome back.

1346. A third of Muslim students back killings

Comment #221292 by decius on July 29, 2008 at 1:37 pm

Comment #221287 by al-rawandi

without redistribution in the form of taxation

This was the crucially missing part, which is what the "other side" is arguing for.

1347. A third of Muslim students back killings

Comment #221282 by decius on July 29, 2008 at 1:30 pm

Comment #221278 by al-rawandi

But the redistribution of wealth will soon be in the interest of the wealthy (redistribution to a degree) because inherited wealth threatens the notion of earned capital.

On which planet?

1348. Catholics To Pope: Lift Birth Control Ban

Comment #221098 by decius on July 29, 2008 at 10:38 am

Comment #221090 by thewhitepearl

Friendly, of course. It scored 1000 points nonetheless.

1349. Catholics To Pope: Lift Birth Control Ban

Comment #221086 by decius on July 29, 2008 at 10:27 am

Comment #221073 by kkelly

and I've been in the laundry room

I have been there, too, but I omitted to look at or to pilfer other people's dirty laundry.

I always wondered how those who did look like, thanks for clearing that one up. :)

1350. Catholics To Pope: Lift Birth Control Ban

Comment #221067 by decius on July 29, 2008 at 10:07 am

Comment #221055 by kkelly