1401. You come up here and say that, Dawkins!

Comment #17351 by Logicel on January 13, 2007 at 2:24 am

God has a huge nose. Perhaps he is leaning so precipitously over the airy cloud's fluffy edge to scout out a good cosmetic surgeon in Hollywood?

1402. Gentle Rottweiler

Comment #17347 by Logicel on January 13, 2007 at 2:06 am

JohnC wrote: "of how these different dialogues can co-exist without corrupting one's sense of truth and integrity."
______

The words apologists and appeasers denote contempt because they imply that one is corrupting truth and integrity. If a key can be made to open that door, so one can discuss and agree on how non-theists need to work together without the majority sacrificing their sense of truth and integrity, then we are onto something useful.

1403. Judge: Men can seek damages from church

Comment #17209 by Logicel on January 12, 2007 at 1:50 am

The Vatican is a festering pustule that needs to be popped.

1404. Readers Write: Atheist Sam Harris on Torture and Faith

Comment #17135 by Logicel on January 11, 2007 at 4:55 am

JohnC, I can't stand New Age drivel, and I am, myself, looking forward to Dawkin's presentation. I think New Age crapola is worse than the so called three great monotheist religions! There is no excuse for it because it developed well after important scientific breakthroughs regarding our understanding of the natural world.

Harris is a Ph.D candidate in Neuroscience, and perhaps I may be giving him too much slack for that reason. Apparently you are more familiar with Harris' writings than myself. However, the debate which is resulting from their opposing non-theistic viewpoints is interesting and informative.

1405. Readers Write: Atheist Sam Harris on Torture and Faith

Comment #17128 by Logicel on January 11, 2007 at 3:03 am

Would I torture someone to save a loved one of mine? No. What I would do would be to use all my energies to show how my loved one is a wonderful human--I would show videos, photos, play audio recordings, everything I had, including other people to come and talk about my loved one. This would go on non stop. Some would say that would be torture, well, in that case, it is a torture with which my loved ones and I can live.

1406. Readers Write: Atheist Sam Harris on Torture and Faith

Comment #17126 by Logicel on January 11, 2007 at 2:50 am

Thanks, briancoughlanworldcitizen, for your link to your blog. Why have you stop posting for over three months now at your blog? Spending too much time here? I will eventually read your back posts.

1407. Readers Write: Atheist Sam Harris on Torture and Faith

Comment #17120 by Logicel on January 11, 2007 at 2:31 am

briancoughlanworldcitizen, Harris saying that since we are dismissive regarding the truly horrid nature of collateral damage, we must then ethically match horrors--since collateral damage is horrid, then the horror of torture is permissible. Why does he not focus on both horrors equally--collateral damage and torture, and clearly condemm both?

Why not put all our human energies into preventing war? Us humans have a long history of it, and we are all tired of it. Some scientists like Watson and Wilson have stated that humanity has become less violent through the ages because violence is not productive in a densely populated world. Let us continue in that direction.

Gorenfeld's burning words regarding bogus atheism leads to sterilization of the human experience--my advice to him is to move out of California! Perhaps then his 'mental' seeds can sprout in fertile and REAL soil. Then he can understand that the mind is both a marvelous and little explored domain. Harris' field of neuroscience has and will continue to discover how human minds work.

Decades ago, when I was buying a Hawking's book, the checkout person dreamily held his book to her chest, eyes glazed over, saying, "Scientists like him will save us and the world!'. I grabbed back the book and said, "No honey, they will not, it will be me and you who will do the hard work, so stop dreaming and start working."

1408. Halting progress

Comment #17060 by Logicel on January 10, 2007 at 2:13 pm

captain underpants, use 'control u' and 'find on this page' to identify which html code is being used so you can copy it--you want the one for blockquote

1409. Halting progress

Comment #17046 by Logicel on January 10, 2007 at 12:12 pm

"Let people believe in fairies if they wish to: I would fight as hard to protect the right of the benighted to the stupidest beliefs as to protect the right of gays to equal treatment in all respects; but the condition is that they do not impose those beliefs on others, or the antediluvian morality that goes with it. And that is the line in the sand."
_____

And the supporters of religious superstitions keep blurring, obsuring, and erasing that line in the sand--as if we would somehow not notice!!!

1410. Consciousness Without Faith

Comment #16699 by Logicel on January 8, 2007 at 5:36 am

Thanks, Ironwolf for the link.

Ann Druyan: Well, because our language is a pre-scientific phenomenon we don't have a word for this feeling that isn't imbued with a sorry history. But we still have that feeling.

and

And I'm not ceding that feeling to the fundamentalists or to anyone else because it belongs to all of us. And not only that: without that, we're not going to attract many people to our way of thinking.

______

Humanity has lost so much--life, happiness, dignity, productivity, progress to the poison that is religious superstitions. We must not let the religites have a monopoly on spirtuality. I focus on the 'spirit' part of the word. Here are some definitions of spirit:

(http://www.thefreedictionary.com/spirit)

The vital principle or animating force within living beings.

A person as characterized by a stated quality: He is a proud spirit.

A particular mood or an emotional state characterized by vigor and animation: sang with spirit.

To impart courage, animation, or determination to; inspirit. The essential nature of a person or group.

A very small number of the definitions under spirit pertained to the supernatural. Supporters of religious superstitions believe that only they have the key to open the door to something special, worthwhile, and awe-inspiring. Instead, in reality, they are not opening that door, not even a crack. Let the secular humanists give out the keys to that door for everybody; don't hamper their inspired and courageous attempts to remove the last scrap of imaginary, tattered fabric off the delusion of a nude religious emperor--that they are the ones that are not spiritual. They are, in effect, spiritually bankrupt. They are like the proverbial rich person who is impoverished and don't have a clue.

1411. Secret Life of Brian

Comment #16689 by Logicel on January 8, 2007 at 4:35 am

I was also impressed with the energetic quality of Gilliam's comments, and came across this great video interview of him:
http://www.kayotix.com/tmp/newsfeeds/11.08.06/terrygilliam/

1412. The New Atheists

Comment #16465 by Logicel on January 6, 2007 at 5:18 pm

"...Prof. Cox to my mind, no matter how much one might disagree with his beliefs, at the very least has the honesty, strength of character and belief to plainly say that "God" is outside the realms of the mundane and does not need to be or even could be proven." (bold face is mine)
______

Resorting clearly and plainly to that ploy of God being outside the realms of the mudane is very common. Religites say what Cox said frequently. It is the basis of their insisting that their religious superstitions must not be criticized based on no evidence for such religious superstitions in the real world. That aspect of supporters of religious superstitions' was thoroughly discussed in TGD, forming a major thrust of what Dawkins is trying confront--that religious superstitions are not beyond criticism just because it resides outside the world of the mundane. This has been the reliable and predictable cloak of intellectual dishonesty of supporters of religious superstitions--it is as common as rain.

1413. Secular fundamentalists are the new totalitarians

Comment #16322 by Logicel on January 6, 2007 at 4:15 am

Pilot22A wrote: "Once again, the last refuge of the believer in supernaturalism is to attack, and this is a quite good attack. This guy is not a "moron" and this will sit well with his audience."
______

Jones' attack is a dime a dozen. If this mush will sit well with his audience that his audience better be toothless.

1414. Secular fundamentalists are the new totalitarians

Comment #16320 by Logicel on January 6, 2007 at 4:04 am

scottishgeologist, just too marvelous, love Atkinson's opening line, "I was not expecting the Spanish Inquisition."

1415. Executing Saddam Hussein was an Act of Vandalism

Comment #16318 by Logicel on January 6, 2007 at 3:39 am

ronnieharper, I really appreciated your comment. Thanks!

1416. Without God, Gall Is Permitted

Comment #16305 by Logicel on January 6, 2007 at 3:02 am

Jared wrote: "I take it as an insult when someone calls me 'young' as if that invalidates my arguments."

_______

You take it as an insult because it is an insult!

Your blasphemy challenge video is highly regarded--I was unable to rate it or comment because youtube is inconsistent in that regard. I enjoyed it very much. Thanks.

1417. The New Atheists

Comment #16284 by Logicel on January 5, 2007 at 9:07 pm

Religious fundamentalists ironically are easier to deal with--they either want to kill infidels/gloat about their eventual roasting in hell or try to save them. Clear and simple, you know with what you are dealing.

The god apologists, on the other hand, bring to mind that biblical saying about God spewing up the folks that are lukewarm.

1418. Without God, Gall Is Permitted

Comment #16273 by Logicel on January 5, 2007 at 7:15 pm

great comment, wallace, Thanks!

1419. The New Atheists

Comment #16264 by Logicel on January 5, 2007 at 6:45 pm

"It always makes a comeback, I think, when religious people get too arrogant, when they begin to look as though or speak as though they know it all, when they begin to impose themselves in ways that are unwelcome to other people in the society. Then atheism is a kind of, for me, welcome critique of this arrogance."
______

Very interesting comment, seems Cox is apprehensive of his own kind, that faith-based people can get carried away and need constraining. Why not encourage people to be rational in the first place, Cox? Or do you think that religites can just take a little opium and not get addicted?

1420. The New Atheists

Comment #16262 by Logicel on January 5, 2007 at 6:38 pm

"Well, the canons of proof are not applicable to that question, and it's not something that can be proved or disproved."
______

Sorry bud, the burden of proof is on the believers.

1421. The New Atheists

Comment #16261 by Logicel on January 5, 2007 at 6:35 pm

"He takes the most narrow and the most legalistic side of religion and makes that religion, and then he's against it."
____

Dawkins focuses on the very core that is rotten in any religious superstition: encouraging and rewarding people to accept beliefs based solely on faith. His focus is neither narrow or irrelevant to all religions regardless to whichever degree of intensity they are practiced.

1422. The New Atheists

Comment #16259 by Logicel on January 5, 2007 at 6:30 pm

"He suffered an assassination attempt in Rome and attributed his survival to the intervention of Our Lady of Fatima. A maternal hand guided the bullet. One cannot help wondering why she didn't guide it to miss him altogether."
______

A quick, penetrating wit is charming. Oh wait a minute, then I guess Dawkins can't be a new atheist then? Drat, too bad, because he would be able to do alot for us.

1423. Without God, Gall Is Permitted

Comment #16258 by Logicel on January 5, 2007 at 6:23 pm

"Without God, Gall Is Permitted"
_____

And with God, ignorance is encouraged and rewarded.

1424. Without God, Gall Is Permitted

Comment #16257 by Logicel on January 5, 2007 at 6:16 pm

It will be non-theists of ALL AGES working and organizing and supporting each other that will achieve success.

1425. Without God, Gall Is Permitted

Comment #16256 by Logicel on January 5, 2007 at 6:15 pm

As scooternyc covered the grounds concerning the stupidity of bringing the age of someone as a considering point as to the maturity of language that is used in expressing oneself, I, as an old fart that champions youth will just say, Kudos scooternyc!

1426. Without God, Gall Is Permitted

Comment #16253 by Logicel on January 5, 2007 at 6:10 pm

It seems the apologists are getting what the new atheists are about--they just don't like it!

Non-theists are organizing and will lobby--which is an important departure from the 'old' atheists' way of doing things.

What's the matter, you 'charming' apologists, don't you want us atheists to be represented in society? Don't you want us to be honest and clear that we are fed up with superstitions being paraded as something valuable and useful to humanity?

Yup, the apologists are getting what the new atheists are about.

1427. Without God, Gall Is Permitted

Comment #16252 by Logicel on January 5, 2007 at 6:04 pm

"The new atheists fail too often simply for want of charm or skill."
_____

And the 'old' charming atheists succeeded?

1428. Atheists challenge the religious right

Comment #16147 by Logicel on January 5, 2007 at 2:00 am

Several posters at this site have commented on how the power of the Web is assisting in getting the nontheist stance out and about:


http://businesslogs.com/web_20/digg_and_youtube_powering_atheism_20.php

1429. Atheists challenge the religious right

Comment #16146 by Logicel on January 5, 2007 at 1:54 am

MeIM, Thanks very much for that link to a video showing Wafa Sultan's majesty of passionate, articulate secular humanism. Now, that is real righteousness!

I have bookmarked it, and will link to it when Christians bleat that only the 'gentle' Christians are being taken out to the nontheist--I prefer this term also over atheist--woodshed for an 'undeserved' whipping.

1430. Executing Saddam Hussein was an Act of Vandalism

Comment #15957 by Logicel on January 4, 2007 at 1:51 am

Denoir wrote: "These are of course extremely complicated questions and the answer won't of course be as trivial as a "dictator gene". However, if we wish to know it, we can't destroy it as we are destroying valuable information that could lead to future prevention. If we know the mechanisms then we can do something about it."
_______

I have recently watched a video on google of Charlie Rose interviewing E.O. Wilson and James Watson. Watson said that the last great revolution in biology was the merging of chemistry with biology, and that the up and coming one will be the merging of psychology with biology.

Also, brain imaging techniques which are available now were not present during Hilter's time. And more such tools to understand how the brain works will be created.

However, this approach is not easily accepted by the average person. I think of how native Americans hated and fought the analysis of their ancestor's bones. On one level, I agreed and was as equally horrified, and on another less emotive level, I was horrified that we, as a collective species, were denied access to invaluable information.

Though strongly provocative, I am supportive of Dawkins stating his viewpoint concerning this controversial aspect which will be inevitably discussed more and more as time goes on.

1431. What are you optimistic about? Why?

Comment #15767 by Logicel on January 2, 2007 at 6:02 pm

"And I am optimistic that this final scientific enlightenment will deal an overdue deathblow to religion and other juvenile superstitions." (boldface is mine)
___________

What adjectives can be used to modify superstitions without being superfluous? Certainly not negative, silly, nonsensical, unrealistic, or unfounded. The only adjectives that I can think of that are not superfluous but are descriptive are religious and non-religious (ex. not walking under a ladder, regarding a black cat crossing your path as being either good or bad luck--depending on the culture, etc,) To what purpose does modifying superstitions with juvenile serve? The implication being risked here is that it is okay for juveniles to have superstitions while it is not for adults, or that juveniles tend to have superstitions.

1432. God's Enemies Are More Honest Than His Friends

Comment #15416 by Logicel on December 31, 2006 at 5:53 am

JohnC, Here is a very relevant quote from the Wikipedian entry on Piaget:

In Conversations with Jean Piaget, he says: "Education, for most people, means trying to lead the child to resemble the typical adult of his society . . . but for me and no one else, education means making creators. . . . You have to make inventors, innovators—not conformists," (Bringuier, 1980, p.132). His influence on education was not long lasting or profound, however. This was perhaps because his theory is not well taught in educational colleges and text books, and perhaps because his model of the child's development implied a far more radical transformation of the education system than was acceptable. (boldface is mine)

Adults resist regarding children as full fledged humans with the potential to do anything. Adults seem to think that their version of what they consider to be 'childhood' is precious and must be protected and prolonged--though this concept is relatively recent in human history. Adults need to have their consciousness raised regarding children just like racists/sexists had to have their consciousness raised. And if I seem to be a little tough on the Santa lie, it is because when I witness parents doing the Santa routine, all I see is an empty, meaningless routine that at the very least is neutral and at the very most, harmful to the mental/moral development of the child.

Children thrive on parental attention--why do hard-working parents spending time, effort, money in perpetrating the Santa myth deny the knowledge to their children that they are the ones that are paying attention to the children, why do they willingly give Santa credit for the extremely valuable and much needed parental attention of which they are in reality bestowing upon their children?

1433. How Old is the Grand Canyon? Park Service Won't Say

Comment #15287 by Logicel on December 30, 2006 at 6:56 am

I see that Nikki's great link has been posted separately for discussion.

This a great sentence: "As one park geologist said, this is equivalent of Yellowstone National Park selling a book entitled Geysers of Old Faithful: Nostrils of Satan," Ruch added, pointing to the fact that previous NPS leadership ignored strong protests from both its own scientists and leading geological societies against the agency approval of the creationist book. "

I remembered my family trip to the Grand Canyon decades ago when I was a kid, and how the scientific presentation of geologic facts were exhilarating to me and influenced my becoming an amateur geologist when I reached adolescence. To think that now children going to that same wonderful site are slapped in the face with crap, like a book on creationism and its idiotic interpretation of geological time, makes me profoundly sad.

The geologists that have to endure this nonsense must have joined that group of scientists--an article was listed at this site concerning this banding of scientists against the misusing of governmental funds to hold back the advancement of science. Being an American, with litigious blood cells rampaging in my arteries, I hope eventually the Grand Canyon scientists sue their employers for abuse in the workplace.

1434. God's Enemies Are More Honest Than His Friends

Comment #15282 by Logicel on December 30, 2006 at 6:30 am

JohnC, Just because this is an atheistic forum, does not mean that no matter how clear one is, one is not going to get misconstrued.

I wanted just to tie in a few loose ends. On many threads at this forum, people have stated that it is important that we focus on children's education, because once a child is taught that it is ok to accept faith as a basis for belief, than that child is on the way of becoming a faith-based adult, whether that belief eventually embraces a traditional religion or a new age one. And once that happens, then it very hard for them to become deconverted.

Several of us have discussed that critical thinking is not encouraged for a child to learn how to do, at family or at schools. And though we may see the utility in teaching children how to critically think, we in practice, as adults, continue to coddle kids as if they cannot learn how to critically think, and then we have the gall to wonder why adults do not do a very good job of it.

1435. God's Enemies Are More Honest Than His Friends

Comment #15274 by Logicel on December 30, 2006 at 5:30 am

JohnC, I did not say that Santa has anything to do with religion, and I did not advocate the challenging of Santa be strewn across any rallying atheistic banner. My religious parents made it clear that Santa did not exist, so I do not have believing in Santa connected with religion in my mind or my experience.

My opinion about challenging the Santa tradition is based on my insistence that children are full-fledged human beings, and they are often not treated that way, as if their humanity is not potent enough just because they are young and inexperienced. I am a champion of youth rights (http://youthrights.org/), and this championship is based on my own very still sharp memory of how I was treated as a child--as I am fond of describing it, since I am a female, I was treated a bit more severely than the male children who were 1/2 human while I was apparently 1/4 human. Dawkins, himself, in TGD says that parents needs to encourage children to disagree with them.

The foundations upon which fantasy is based are certainly borrowed from the adult world. My point is that the child needs to be encouraged to choose which foundations on which he/she wants to build their own fantasies. Fantasies can be not only shared with others, but they can come into being collectively. And the Santa one does not have a monopoly on those aspects.

I would like to take this opportunity to mention that some users of this site of like mind have come together to discuss a kids self-education project:

http://www.richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4515

As for cautioning me in my use of memes, I will certainly take heed of such caution and add to the already existing caution that I have about using memes to get my point across!

1436. God's Enemies Are More Honest Than His Friends

Comment #15260 by Logicel on December 30, 2006 at 3:26 am

JohnC, I am being serious about the Santa meme. Though I was told by my parents that Santa does not exist, I was encouraged to use my imagination, and write fiction, put on family theatre, write poems, draw and paint, run through the sand dunes at our summer shack, with a towel tied to my neck, imitating superman. My childhood was rich with fantasy in which I played an active role--it was not fantasy spoon fed to my by adults that have no idea what fantasies in which I would like indulge myself.

I am rereading Blackmore's The Meme Machine, and I do agree with her that memes replicate for their own selfish need to reproduce themselves. And as I am able to transcend my human selfish genes and not just propagate myself via the genetic direction, I also make it a point for me to transcend consciously certain memes, and to choose to aid that meme replication that I decide has some advantage to myself and society. And the Santa meme is not one of them.

1437. God's Enemies Are More Honest Than His Friends

Comment #15252 by Logicel on December 30, 2006 at 1:46 am

jhb90277, Thanks for your considered and thoughtful comment.

Challenging the Santa meme, especially because this particular fantasy can be directed towards children so they will toe the parental line--get rewarded if they are obedient--is something I do as much is possible. Just as I will no longer remain silent when supporters of religious superstitions drone on and on about their supersitious beliefs, I will no longer be quiet concerning the using of the Santa meme. My challenging this particular meme is to encourage people to think about it and encourage discussion regarding it, and not necessarily to stop practicing it right away.

The actual practice of this Santa fantasy differs. Just like Richard Dawkin's exposure to the religious meme was not as viral as it can be, so is the exposure to the Santa meme--sounds like your familial practice is of the less virulent kind.

1438. God's Enemies Are More Honest Than His Friends

Comment #15251 by Logicel on December 30, 2006 at 1:33 am

Nikki, Thanks for this link:

http://www.peer.org/news/news_id.php?row_id=801
________

This a great sentence: "As one park geologist said, this is equivalent of Yellowstone National Park selling a book entitled Geysers of Old Faithful: Nostrils of Satan," Ruch added, pointing to the fact that previous NPS leadership ignored strong protests from both its own scientists and leading geological societies against the agency approval of the creationist book. "

I remembered my family trip to the Grand Canyon decades ago when I was a kid, and how the scientific presentation of geologic facts were exhilarating to me and influenced my becoming an amateur geologist when I reached adolescence. To think that now children going to that same wonderful site are slapped in the face with crap, like a book on creationism and its idiotic interpretation of geological time, makes me profoundly sad.

The geologists that have to endure this nonsense must have joined that group of scientists--an article was listed at this site concerning this banding of scientists against the misusing of governmental funds to hold back the advancement of science. Being an American, with litigious blood cells rampaging in my arteries, I hope eventually the Grand Canyon scientists sue their employers for abuse in the workplace.

1439. God's Enemies Are More Honest Than His Friends

Comment #15221 by Logicel on December 29, 2006 at 5:56 pm

Why does a child having an imaginary friend worries their parents and psychologists as a compelling problem with which to deal while a child believing in an imaginary Santa does not?

Is a child lying to itself when it creates an imaginary friend? No. Is a parent lying to a child when they teach their child to believe in imaginary beings in whom they themselves do not believe? Yes.

If parents truly want to have magically special times with their children, can't they come up with something better than this particular meme of Santa? Can't they encourage the development of imagination in their children without resorting to lies. Of course they can!

1440. 10 myths - and 10 truths - about atheism

Comment #15211 by Logicel on December 29, 2006 at 2:38 pm

Aussie said, "I find that the most heart warming section of this whole website is Convert's Corner - easily accessed from the left margin of the front page. Do visit it if you have not yet done so. To see so many people throwing off the shackles of fear and superstition and regaining their lives as a result of reading Richard's books is a pleasure to behold."
_____

People like David are working hard unknowingly to help deconvert people. He is a positive force for deconversion. But I guess if he does become deconverted himself, there will be plenty of David clones that will fit the bill for promoting the continuing deconversion of supporters of religious superstition. So our 'cause' could withstand the sacrifice of David becoming deconverted!

The saying, that a pickpocket when seeing Jesus will only see his pockets, can be applied to David's response to the Convert's corner at this site: All that courage, intelligence, and all that positiveness saddens David?

And in typical David fashion, he thinks that the majority of the converts are not Christian? Most of the testimonials are from people who once believed deeply in Jesus. David does not pay attention to what people are saying and writing. He misconstrues content fairly 'religiously.'

1441. 10 myths - and 10 truths - about atheism

Comment #15205 by Logicel on December 29, 2006 at 2:04 pm

Billy Sands said, "It is funny, no matter how irretreviably you think you are down the atheistic path, someone like David comes along and makes you realise that it is possible to be convinced even more that christianity is totally wrong. thanks Dave."
_______

If only the discussion threads monopolized by David and the responses to his posts could be published, I think Christianity would vanish!

I agree with you absolutely regarding that reading David's comments gives a boost to why we are atheists and why we are vocal ones.

1442. God's Enemies Are More Honest Than His Friends

Comment #15202 by Logicel on December 29, 2006 at 1:46 pm

BeyondBelief said, "I explained to him that what he believes is between him and his family and that he cannot share that with other people."
_______

So then all the god botherers should not discuss their beliefs outside their families?

I am very interested in how you handled this, in terms of speaking to your son and getting back to his teacher.

1443. Woman beaten on Jerusalem bus for refusing to move to rear seat

Comment #15146 by Logicel on December 29, 2006 at 5:29 am

Stewart said, "On the school segregation issue, one might add that the all-male study environments of the ultra-Orthodox are rumoured to lead to more homosexuality than would otherwise manifest itself (the need for physical contact often wins out over all other taboos and when there is no one of the opposite sex around...), which then runs afoul of yet another biblical injunction."
_______

And because believers are prohibited by their faith to question anything about said faith, they stay mired in a situation that their own faith says is sinful.

1444. Woman beaten on Jerusalem bus for refusing to move to rear seat

Comment #15145 by Logicel on December 29, 2006 at 5:27 am

Perhaps a letter to Miriam should be written by atheists in the lines of the one that was written to Ted Haggard?

http://letter2ted.org/Default.aspx

1445. A Christmas thunderbolt for the arch-enemy of religion

Comment #15144 by Logicel on December 29, 2006 at 5:11 am

Percy Walker wrote The Moviegoer in which was featured a fictional character, Binx Bolling.

Here is an excerpt from the Wikipedian entry on Walker: "He devoted his literary life to the exploration of "the dislocation of man in the modern age,"[1] and his work exhibited a unique combination of existentialism, southern sensibility, and deeply-felt Catholicism."

I am sure many know who Binx Bolling is, but I did not, so I am just including it here for some who may have not known about Binx and his creator.

1446. A Christmas thunderbolt for the arch-enemy of religion

Comment #15140 by Logicel on December 29, 2006 at 5:02 am

Kingasaurus said, "If there is an evolutionary reason why the grouper doesn't devour the small cleaner fish once it finishes cleaning inside the grouper's mouth, it really isn't a big stretch to look for biological reasons why hypothetical societies which would allow anarchical murder and wanton, purposeless destruction just because its members "feel like doing it" just aren't going to be very successful."
_________

And that is why the majority of humanity are not psychopaths.

As I have said many times before, the discourse at RichardDawkins.Net is of consistently high quality, and I thank all who contribute their time and mental energies in doing so, and I thank the creators and managers of this marvelous site. Us atheistic 'cats' have managed to create a flourishing community. Kudos to everyone involved.

1447. Fallen Angels Assault: Heaven at Christmas

Comment #15003 by Logicel on December 28, 2006 at 3:44 am

Denoir said, "I therefore think that "love" (which is implied in patriotism) is a very wrong term to use to express approval of the society you live in."
____

Growing up in New York City, I was exposed to many different nationalities, and of course, many Americans still retain some of the cultural customs of the countries from which they emigrated. As some posters have previously pointed out that once they knew of the existence of different religions, they began to question their own as why it should be the one and only true one. Being exposed to people who identified with other nationalities, did the same thing for me and patriotism.

I encouraged myself to pinpoint the workable aspects of a group of citizens, and for me it is capitalism, secular government, democracy, and adherence to Law.

Other aspects--which I enjoy immensely in the French version--like beauty and variety of the landscape, culinary heights, the kissing of cheeks and shaking of hands, the shrugging of shoulders when one is perplexed, the melange of the 'hot' southern European culture with the cooler northern cultural aspects, and the appreciation of good conversation can fine tune and custom make the societal fit to oneself.

1448. How the Great Atheist got polite society standing

Comment #14998 by Logicel on December 28, 2006 at 2:16 am

"The whole religious complexion of the modern world is due to the absence from Jerusalem of a Lunatic Asylum."
______

Also because there was no medication for psychiatric problems available then:

I saw a version of The Ten Commandments on French TV recently.

A glaring aspect of the Hebrews as presented in that film was that they were Egyptian slaves that slavishly followed Moses and Moses' God, and then slavishly worshipped the Golden Calf when Moses took a short break from them (and I don't blame him that he did), and then went back slavishly following Moses and his God.

Meanwhile Moses was in constant agony because of such activities as advocating stoning and the throwing of the first stone (to set a good example for his 'slaves') at a couple of his good friends, the killing of his Egyptian 'brother' by his God's miracle of the parting of the waters, and the killing of this same 'brother's' firstborn, again by one of Moses' God's miracles.

I could not take it any more, I stood up screaming at the screen, "Get this guy, Moses, some friggin' Prosac, please!!!!!!

1449. 10 myths - and 10 truths - about atheism

Comment #14942 by Logicel on December 27, 2006 at 2:57 am

Sancus, I was unable to locate that forum thread, so I will discuss lucid dreaming a little bit here.

Looking up the definition of lucid dreaming, I realized that a psychologist describing my waking state where I had a difficult time understanding that what took place in my dream was not real is not considered to be lucid dreaming. What! Can an expert be wrong? He apparently thought that lucid dreaming is when the dream is particularily 'real'.

Lucid dreaming as defined in Wikipedia is when you are conscious of dreaming. Doesn't everybody do that? (I hope that made you laugh!) Seriously, most of my dreams are lucid then. I suspect that I taught myself how to lucidly dream when I was a kid. I needed to be conscious during dreaming in order to stop wetting my bed in my sleep.

I definitely think that there are different levels, styles, and abilities regarding consciousness.

The Economist in its recent issues discusses how developments in neuroscience--in which I am very interested in--are challenging the notion of free will and choice and thereby really shaking up law and religion. Remember S. Harris is an neuroscientist.

Second Life, the web based virtual reality is interesting in this regard. Though resisting it at first, I then realized that it was very mentally and creatively stimulating.

I am sorry I cannot do justice to all the issues you have raised in this short reply. Point me to the forum thread where this is being discussed, and perhaps I can go into more detail.

1450. Fallen Angels Assault: Heaven at Christmas

Comment #14862 by Logicel on December 26, 2006 at 4:47 am

Briancoughlanworldcitizen, said, "Nationalisim, is arguably a far more pernicious form of delusion than religion, and you seem to be suffering from a full blown infection. Take your atheist skepticisim and apply it to your nationalisim, see how you get on.

For the record, applying my skeptical view of nationalisim to my religious convictions, was one of the primary hammer blows to deconstructing my religious faith. Maybe it can work both ways?:-)
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Briancoughlandworldcitizen, I remember about 15 years ago when I first moved to Europe from America, I bought and wore a tee-shirt with the slogan, 'world citizen.'

I am enjoying this discussion between Denoir and Sancus, and hope it continues as long as they are interested in doing so. I am learning about these two different viewpoints a bit more, and I appreciate their time and efforts in discussing them.

I, myself, am pretty tough in general on patriotic Americans, as they do seem to be reliqious and unthinking in their style of patriotism expressed by such sayings as, 'We are going to kick ass', America is the Greatest Country (sort of like Allah is great), etc. These kinds of posters abound in many discussion forums. So it is rare and scintillating to encounter a thoughtful patriot like Sancus. Apparently they do exist.

My atheism and my primary identity being that of a New Yorker (the rest of America always seemed foreign to me, and America to me is basically the American Constitution so I do not have a strong identity based on its people, culture, or land). Why that is, I have no idea, but that is how it turned out for me. So as I travelled and lived in other countries, I became less and less nationalistic, that is, in my nationality as a New Yorker, well, really, a Manhattanite. However, I am still heavily influenced by western civilization, so I am far from being a world citizen in my mind and heart, but I am trying.

The Middle East and the Far East (Chinese and Eqyptian cultures) influenced the development of western civilization, and despite of that--as I am fond of saying--it seems that many vocal Americans and I can add, Europeans, think that their country(ries) popped out fully developed from the void in a similar fashion as Athena popped out, fully formed, from the head of Zeus.