101. Investigating Atheism

Comment #167453 by Enlightenme.. on April 24, 2008 at 4:18 am

^ "Can't we force these people.."

Careful CJ, they'll be quotemining ;)
I thought it was Cambridge theologians?
Ah, no, it's Oxbridge theologians, they took care of that one. (Verylee, post #12)

102. Investigating Atheism

Comment #167443 by Enlightenme.. on April 24, 2008 at 3:50 am

^ "Thus I see the use of the name of the University as an insult"

This will have to be handled with kid-gloves won't it?

In light of the obvious 'Expelled' bleating on free speech grounds that any attempt at dis-associating pressure will bring about.

I can see how you can get the 'non-subject' of theology past, as 'god' does exist as a subjective object/concept.

But Atheology is an 'empty set' - even my non-philosophy brain tells me there's no subject.

Oh of course, I see it now - we're studying an Ism,
Why didn't thet say that, oh - they did.
Marxism Stalinism Nazism Atheism.

The agenda I see is destroying the 'Out' campaign.

103. Investigating Atheism

Comment #167401 by Enlightenme.. on April 24, 2008 at 2:10 am

^ Richard is quite clear on the fact that he was ready to address it earlier but his publishers were more open to it post-911.
He must feel rather sad that Douglas Adams didn't get to see it.

Before 911 I think it appeared to be a 'beneath' Science question.

There's also the problem of the 'Martydom' aspect of even going there from Richard's pre God-delusion reputation - a sacrifice for which we are all indebted.
(Oh fuck did I really say that)

104. Investigating Atheism

Comment #167394 by Enlightenme.. on April 24, 2008 at 1:53 am

"is there a... particular reason why The God Delusion is apparently the "most notorious" of them all? Why is The God Delusion so special?"

(imo)
It's because the take home message is that the existance of a creator is unequivocally a Science question.

It blows NOMA clean out of the water.

Oh, and the Delusion bit of course.
I gradually recovered from my faith over ten or fifteen years ago, and yet I can still 'feel' the delusion, it (something from nothing?) never ever truely goes away, I still need Richard's book in the house 'in case of emergency'. (emergence-y)

105. Investigating Atheism

Comment #167393 by Enlightenme.. on April 24, 2008 at 1:45 am

"45. Comment #167283 by dragonfirematrix on April 23, 2008 at 8:17 pm

6) Stop all the god-damn religious wars "


You forgot to specify that he must leave some rather solid information as to which god he was that did it.

25/04/08:
[/Stop all the god-damn religious wars]

106. Investigating Atheism

Comment #167389 by Enlightenme.. on April 24, 2008 at 1:37 am

^
"keep the faith guys"
[/irony]

Remember if you forget to close italics & the like it sticks on following posts

107. Investigating Atheism

Comment #167049 by Enlightenme.. on April 23, 2008 at 3:09 pm

D'you think the diviners are on the run?
Excellent concept to keep them in tenure in a post-theistic age.

108. Investigating Atheism

Comment #167038 by Enlightenme.. on April 23, 2008 at 2:58 pm

Verylee:
"...want to try to intellectualise the concept of Atheism"

Exactly my kind of visceral reaction.

Teach the controversy?

What controversy - religions exist, I have evidence, but gods?

109. Investigating Atheism

Comment #167030 by Enlightenme.. on April 23, 2008 at 2:53 pm

They could apply for a grant from Templeton.

[edit]
oh, hadn't seen post 12.

110. Investigating Atheism

Comment #167017 by Enlightenme.. on April 23, 2008 at 2:41 pm

Put me up for the job of head Atheologian.

I have all the qualifications required.

111. Investigating Atheism

Comment #167005 by Enlightenme.. on April 23, 2008 at 2:34 pm

Fukn'ell

Does the Universe show signs of having been a creation?

Nope.

112. Is religion a threat to rationality and science?

Comment #166953 by Enlightenme.. on April 23, 2008 at 2:04 pm

^ Thanks Colwyn, that's interesting and seems to make a lot of sense.

This suggests women should accept the 'it was only sex' excuse then? ;)
What does Tribonin mean? (Scuse my ignorance)



Any other ex-believers here who *did* feel 'God's Love' ?? I really want to know what that must have felt like if it's true.

113. Is religion a threat to rationality and science?

Comment #166780 by Enlightenme.. on April 23, 2008 at 12:27 pm

Further to the dirtiness of sex, I am intrigued by how it seems to be received in some non-believers minds that I have spoken to, that there could be anything 'dirty' about sex.

Is this from cultural tradition, or is it more deeply ingrained - perhaps from sex (in the male) having had to be a furtive stealing of the rarer Alpha-male's entitlement?

114. Is religion a threat to rationality and science?

Comment #166702 by Enlightenme.. on April 23, 2008 at 11:41 am

32. Comment #166220 by jonjermey on April 23


"I have come to think that Christians -- and probably other believers -- don't actually HAVE any logical structure to their beliefs. They are in love, infatuated with the idea of God, and like any teenager falling in love for the first time they simply cannot bear any suggestion that their God is less than perfect in every way. This is why most rational arguments don't make any impact: they fail to penetrate this wall of infatuation. Lord Winston and his allies are simply dancing around, moonstruck, singing "I'm in love, I'm in love, I'm in love with a wonderful Guy!" loudly enough to drown out any negative comments."

Sorry, but that's bullshit,
For me, it was about 20 years of fear & paranoia, sometimes just a vague shadow, but sometimes quite a close morbid dread with physiological effects, Lots and lots of guilt, especially about dirty thoughts - I KNEW that was bad.

However, as I grew into adulthood there was a nice effect as I was shaking it off, and that was it psychologically has an enhancing effect on sex - there is a thrill about engaging in sinning (though still accompanied by guilt).
The really strange thing is, though I am rid of all belief - I can still get in touch with that 'dirtiness' feeling!

I cannot remember ever feeling any kind of 'His Love', I was simply never deserving of it, and would have been mortified if 'He' thought that I ever dared to feel myself worthy.

*Erm, I meant Shaking off the belief.

115. Is religion a threat to rationality and science?

Comment #166192 by Enlightenme.. on April 23, 2008 at 1:39 am

"only those with some spirituality - ... - survived the depravity of the camp"

I really like Winston, but anyone who can quote that without throwing up in their mouth a little bit, has a screw loose.

Were they 'spiritual' before this?

116. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #164871 by Enlightenme.. on April 20, 2008 at 7:11 pm

"In warfare, the goal is to kill the enemy before he kills you"

Not necessarily - Denying the enemy his objective can be achieved by all sorts of means - incapacitate, wreck his economy etc.

(Ex-military ;)
In all seriousness though, many in the military get touchy about the fallacy they're all cold-blooded killers that that simplification feeds.

Edit: I forgot change his mind, discourage etc.
The sum up was Achieve his surrender/...(Hudna)

117. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #164831 by Enlightenme.. on April 20, 2008 at 6:22 pm

Perhaps I'm getting paranoid, is it just me - or does the letter sent to Shermer at this time possibly have an agenda? Suspiciously timely?

118. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #164828 by Enlightenme.. on April 20, 2008 at 6:19 pm

Hmmm's question's seem to be getting harder by the second..hmmm

119. Interviews with Richard Dawkins and Michael Shermer

Comment #164529 by Enlightenme.. on April 20, 2008 at 11:18 am

Diacanu, that's funny LOL,
I got EO Wilson and James Watson confused recently in a conversation. (Guess the subject)

I felt a right W later.

Worse - I had to self-analyse whether I simply mixed W's, or have a cog-bias against Wilson from being a Dawkinist.

120. Interviews with Richard Dawkins and Michael Shermer

Comment #164501 by Enlightenme.. on April 20, 2008 at 10:41 am

"and the Jewish state of Israel still is today"

I'm sure you just bunged that out for bait.

Something we can find common ground on eh?
Israeli Lebensraum bothers me too.

Go away, please, with sugar on.

121. Interviews with Richard Dawkins and Michael Shermer

Comment #164424 by Enlightenme.. on April 20, 2008 at 8:38 am

"Some will even be curious enough to look for the whole sequence of posts and follow the links."

Yep, with stunning..lost for words - I found the one with threads in German, and simply fear to dwell there for fear of what it might do to my mind.
It's quite stunning to come across lucid people like you that can contain so much stoopid.

"pedal-driven brain-bashing machine"
?

122. Interviews with Richard Dawkins and Michael Shermer

Comment #164379 by Enlightenme.. on April 20, 2008 at 6:53 am

^ Wow, unbefukinlievable, thank Christ you two popped up before I agree with something this moron says, and therefore became associated with him.
Maybe we should all carry out a complete research of everything someone's said & done before siding with them?

123. Sex for diploma offer caught on tape

Comment #164353 by Enlightenme.. on April 20, 2008 at 5:35 am

"That's why I advocate caution."

It's all about whether the subject is about a person, or if it's about what Religion may have done to that person, or the way that person may have used Religion.

You can generalise about Religion I say.

E.g - If a persons Homophobia, let's say, is 'excused' by their religion.
They are Homophobic because they are taught that's what you have to be.

124. Interviews with Richard Dawkins and Michael Shermer

Comment #164341 by Enlightenme.. on April 20, 2008 at 5:07 am

Would that only the religious, like e.g. Obama, should get 'caught' by their 'associations' with someone you can quotemine.

Skeptic, Liberal.
Who to 'associate' with?
Someone who plants his flag?
Someone who plants his flag, then uproots it and plants it somewhere else? (Hitch)
Let's all just play it safe and shudup eh?

125. Interviews with Richard Dawkins and Michael Shermer

Comment #164331 by Enlightenme.. on April 20, 2008 at 4:42 am

"I would put Ricahrd Dawkins very squarely on the line here for his association with Mr. Shermer."

I Was a bit 'eyes glazed over' when he started on about Darwin and Adam Smith, yeah, and will have to get more familiar with what he's about.

But, you'll have to enlightenme..what Association?

126. Sex for diploma offer caught on tape

Comment #164317 by Enlightenme.. on April 20, 2008 at 3:37 am

^ Sorry, You're right, I should have said seems to illustrate.

127. Sex for diploma offer caught on tape

Comment #164302 by Enlightenme.. on April 20, 2008 at 3:11 am

"Why is this here? I don't think it reflects well on this site. I would vote for its removal if I could"

I disagree, whilst I agree with Hard problem [#4], the last point that Timmeh![#25] makes is what this illustrates.
Religion poisons everything. People get power from it which they can so easily abuse.

128. Sex for diploma offer caught on tape

Comment #164232 by Enlightenme.. on April 19, 2008 at 7:02 pm

"Or was it because of his Christian faith that he acted in this way?"

Hur, hur, Good point.

I really feel uneasy to see our side ever descend to the 'Torquemada was a Christian' argument, It never holds water anyway, because the simplest retort is God made us and Eve broke us.

Hitch's Achilles heel.

129. Interviews with Richard Dawkins and Michael Shermer

Comment #164224 by Enlightenme.. on April 19, 2008 at 6:30 pm

"I don't know his work at all, but I can't help but wonder if he is not seeking out a market niche as a "tolerant sceptic" or something"

Jimmy Carter's an example of this I think, there's good reasons for taking a "quisling" position.

If you hold out hope that an organisation that has been known to use the word 'Hudna' with all that entails, is able to be reasoned with, then people are gonna question your motives, your sanity etc.

I don't think that applies with Shermer.

130. Interviews with Richard Dawkins and Michael Shermer

Comment #164213 by Enlightenme.. on April 19, 2008 at 5:58 pm

"Of course, in the end of it all, we should hope to convince every last human being to pursue reason with us as a moral necessity."

Blimey, that sounds scary, Mr Lenin. That would require coercion.
Some people are never going to be convinced that Mere flawed Humans can ever be trusted to know stuff about 'moral necessities' without them being safely locked away in a book. (Fixed - for all time)
That is the most important way that religion has evolved - and it's a very reasonable position to take.

131. Interviews with Richard Dawkins and Michael Shermer

Comment #164200 by Enlightenme.. on April 19, 2008 at 5:36 pm

"but sadly I know some people to whom I have recommended the book but who have still not read it through laziness/lack of interest"

No Matt, that's a good thing, 'most people' in the UK, are de facto atheists - they would be puzzled by all this fuss, even to the point of thinking people who haunt places like this should 'get a life'!

132. Interviews with Richard Dawkins and Michael Shermer

Comment #164190 by Enlightenme.. on April 19, 2008 at 5:20 pm

"Whilst he proffesed himself to being an atheist, he couldn't help but feel that there was someone looking over him, guiding his life. He reckoned it was the spirit of our grandad. I suppose it's human nature to hope that there is something out there watching us. I'd love to know the reasoning of that."

That is a very strong part of religion obviously, Ancestor Worship is pretty much right at the roots of it. (imo)
Ouija board, Ouija board.

133. Interviews with Richard Dawkins and Michael Shermer

Comment #164178 by Enlightenme.. on April 19, 2008 at 5:10 pm

Thanks Layla for posting a link to the Mark Hanson video, I missed that one and shall watch it later.

I live in the city of Andrew 'Ibrahim', a british convert in custody (No further comment - there's a bit of a controv here about his name being in the press when he is only a suspect)

134. Interviews with Richard Dawkins and Michael Shermer

Comment #164158 by Enlightenme.. on April 19, 2008 at 4:38 pm

Really good interviews, I thought that Shermer has things right though, concerning the PZ thing. As far as expelled are concerned no news is bad news right now.

Jayday, we all approach things differently, even if we feel we have to 'choose a side', just look at the Dawkins/Krauss talk on the front page.

Edit;I heard him saying he viewed the film in a state of mind 'suspension of belief' is it called? (thanks, Layla).
This enables him to report objectively to the listener that to it's constituency it will go down well, it's not to be dismissed - it *is* dangerous.

135. Richard Dawkins and Bill Maher

Comment #163232 by Enlightenme.. on April 18, 2008 at 4:52 am

theonlything2fear #319;

[..."Could it be as much of an embarrassment as Expelled?"]

" You speak of a documentary you have yet to see "

You are right of course, I haven't seen the film yet, and my claim that it will be an embarrassment to rational thinking christians depends on two clauses - the voracity of Richard and PZ's & others claims that they were hoodwinked into appearing in it, some of the reviews from 'my' reputable sources, the truth or otherwise of the claims on 'expelled exposed' purporting to debunk certain claims (I'm told) made by the filmmakers, and the claim's made about a certain Harvard film.

However, it is also true that my statement also rests on whether rational thinking christians actually *are* embarrassed when others they might feel they could be associated with engage in 'Lying for Jesus', or whether they tend to think that it is a 'lesser-evil' that serves a greater cause. So I'll freely admit that this second clause implied by my statement is a little more dubious.

[Pompous is as pompous does ;) ]

136. Sexpelled: No Intercourse Allowed

Comment #163023 by Enlightenme.. on April 17, 2008 at 8:55 pm

I'm gonna block up my chimney first thing tomorrow, and leave it blocked up till Dec 24th.

137. Sexpelled: No Intercourse Allowed

Comment #162994 by Enlightenme.. on April 17, 2008 at 7:22 pm

This fits in quite well with my wish to have been descended from dinosaurs instead of smelly hairy monkeys.

and did you ever notice how they're always so obsessed with playing around with their privates as well that just can't be right can it? bloody sex maniacs

138. Richard Dawkins and Bill Maher

Comment #162892 by Enlightenme.. on April 17, 2008 at 4:15 pm

How concerned should we be about Bill Maher's forthcoming movie Religulous?
Could it be as much of an embarrassment as Expelled?

139. Richard Dawkins and Bill Maher

Comment #162816 by Enlightenme.. on April 17, 2008 at 1:54 pm

If someone asserted to me, that a 3rd party I already know to have made such statements about frozen waterfalls as Collins, has more recently told them they believe in the talking snake, then I would take them at face value in the spur of the moment.

Maher's "absolutely" is pretty assertive.

140. Richard Dawkins and Bill Maher

Comment #162433 by Enlightenme.. on April 17, 2008 at 1:12 am

"The poor just slog along from welfare to dead end job, etc...until"

Hang on, he only said 'police, courts, military and education.
You don't get no 'welfare', just charity, they used to call it 'the poor house' on this side of the pond when we last tried Lessez-faire.

141. Evolution fray attracts top scientist

Comment #162217 by Enlightenme.. on April 16, 2008 at 11:26 am

I would say we share the same four-letter alphabet as fruit flies and potatoes.

142. Richard Dawkins and Bill Maher

Comment #161857 by Enlightenme.. on April 15, 2008 at 7:44 pm

^ M'kay,
So that's;

police, courts and military.. and the education of our kids.

Shall we try for Redistribution of wealth rather than 'trickle down', or would that be pushing it??

143. Richard Dawkins and Bill Maher

Comment #161844 by Enlightenme.. on April 15, 2008 at 7:25 pm

^ "...That is the government's role"

And.. making sure that science classes are for science.

144. Richard Dawkins and Bill Maher

Comment #161819 by Enlightenme.. on April 15, 2008 at 6:16 pm

^It's an easy mistake to make, and the one defence you could plausibly make for religions - they at least recognise that humans are deeply flawed!

145. Richard Dawkins and Bill Maher

Comment #161812 by Enlightenme.. on April 15, 2008 at 5:55 pm

[That's just what Marx & Engels said!
..'course they also warned people to let it play out, not force the issue - untold millions have had to die because people ignored their advice.]

FF:
"Are you honestly defending Marx and Engels? I'm seriously asking because, if so, then this conversation is over. I can't even fathom how an idea that has failed so miserably in so many situations (e.g. Communism) still has admirers today. It's almost as if the more it fails, the more adherents it receives."

I wish you could see me have to pick my jaw off the floor with your misreading of me - you think I'm an admirer?

I used to be in the Air force and am quite proud of my little bit-part played in bringing down that hateful system with (relatively) little bloodshed. They'd have been horrified if they'd thought they were letting a COMMIE atheist onto Mildenhall & Lakenheath back in the eighties, wouldn't they?!!

146. Richard Dawkins and Bill Maher

Comment #161526 by Enlightenme.. on April 15, 2008 at 11:18 am

"The difference is that my ideas have never been tried, yet everyone is convinced of their failure"

Laissez faire never been tried? You gotta be kiddin right?
What the heck got Marx & Engels so bothered?

"OPEC faces the same rules that all other major corporations must face"

Now OPEC is a corporation! (That makes sense actually, it can be fed up to the plebs as a necessary clash of civilisations just the same as the need to break Carnegie, Rockefeller and Gates!)
I'd be interested to know just what rules you think OPEC 'must face'??

[Capitalism] "...Course, someday, it probably will dry out and need to be abandoned"

That's just what Marx & Engels said!
..'course they also warned people to let it play out, not force the issue - untold millions have had to die because people ignored their advice.

147. Richard Dawkins and Bill Maher

Comment #161164 by Enlightenme.. on April 15, 2008 at 1:38 am

Pragmatism.

In my heart I'd be a Socialist, but too many lazy people will use you.

In my head I'd be a capitalist, but too many greedy people will buy fukoff great yauchts & learjets without 'giving something back in'.

'Besides a military and police the gubmint should keep out'

How did we stop CFC manufacturers destroying the Ozone layer?

148. British schools are falling for the pseudoscience of Brain Gym. Why fill kids' heads with nonsense?

Comment #160751 by Enlightenme.. on April 14, 2008 at 11:10 am

I actually tuned in to Newsnight last week to see the item about the BBC being afraid to allow Muhammad jokes, but was even more worried by seeing this item covered beforehand.
I'm hoping the headmistress of Acresfield primary school has already lost her position, well done to the beeb for exposing it, and Jeremy Paxman for interviewing the shyster who peddles this crap.

149. Richard Dawkins and Bill Maher

Comment #160349 by Enlightenme.. on April 14, 2008 at 1:26 am

Just seen a Nigerian politician on the news state that Biofuels is a crime against humanity.

150. Richard Dawkins and Bill Maher

Comment #160339 by Enlightenme.. on April 14, 2008 at 1:10 am

FF:
"...I know everyone is convinced of some massive oil conspiracy but market collusion has never worked. Even if all oil companies decided to raise and set prices at $3.50 a gallon (for example), there would reach a point where one company would go down to $3.40 and undercut everyone else in the market. A drastic fall in prices would follow, whereby the artificial nature of the market would disappear and companies would settle upon the correct market price."

I know everyone is convinced of some massive oil conspiracy but market collusion has never worked.

Then what is OPEC for?