101. Religion's role in the climate debate

Comment #205402 by hungarianelephant on July 7, 2008 at 8:32 am

30. Comment #205401 by Gregg Townsend on July 7, 2008 at 8:25 am

In essence, they believe that no matter what humans do, it won't matter in the long run

Well it won't.

Of course, what they don't realise is what the "long run" is. We can't save the planet, but we might save ourselves.

102. Religion's role in the climate debate

Comment #205391 by hungarianelephant on July 7, 2008 at 8:15 am

27. Comment #205371 by Steve Zara on July 7, 2008 at 7:42 am

I see a similar kind of mindset with climate change deniers as with creationists. It is just a matter of degree. Both mindsets involve a denial of the opinion of the majority of those who have been researching this area. Creationists sometimes say "scientists are dogmatic and corrupt". Climate change deniers say "scientists are exaggerating".

I don't think that necessarily applies across the board. Part of the question is what people are being sceptical about.

The people pushing hard against the whole notion that humans may have any responsibility for climate change do sound and behave a lot like creationists. But I suspect that most of the 70-odd percent of people who refuse to accept it actually just haven't thought about the issue very much, though they have misgivings about its general treatment. The debate is so polarised that many have effectively been pushed into the "deniers" camp by - let's put it nicely - climate change enthusiasts.

Much of what passes for action on climate change is completely useless. The public sits and watches while politicians jet around the world to conferences (often with unseasonably cold weather), then pronounce that everyone else is a Bad Person for having the temerity to go on holiday in an aeroplane. The latest initiative seems to be to replace conventional light bulbs with fluorescents. Never mind that the new bulbs are environmentally expensive to make, can't be dimmed, aren't efficient to use for just a few seconds, and contain mercury so can't be disposed of through proper channels. We must all change bulbs. Why? Because nanny says so. This is not going to save the planet.

A few years back, Kyoto was foisted on us. It is costing hundreds of billions of dollars and will achieve almost nothing. The best estimates from its proponents are that it will delay the full effects of climate change by around six years. So that will be a relief to people in a Bangladeshi flood plain. However, it will serve to increase the wealth of such luminaries as Al Gore, who is a major shareholder in ... a corporation trading in carbon credits.

We've also seen the reappearance of a class of people who seem determined to stop everyone else having fun. In the days when the churches had power, they tended to be religious. Now they attach themselves to the green lobby.

I suspect most "deniers" are simply pissed off with all of this and rebel by clutching at whatever straws are available. Steve and I have discussed before the generally poor communication of scientific issues, and the co-option of scientists for political ends (though to be fair, I don't think Steve would put it quite that way). This almost invites criticism to be levelled at science in general. This is not a good thing, but we aren't going to be able to hand-wave it away by saying that the science is correct. It was the scientists saying "don't argue with us" (or allowing themselves to be used in that way) which created the problem in the first place.

If we want real change, we need political honesty about the real choices we have. But we also need to stop the name-calling. As well as scientific questions about what is going to happen, there are serious economic and political questions about effects and actions. Lumping anyone who raises these into the category of "denier" is as doomed to failure as the burning of heretics.

103. Churches' secret talks to stop gay surge

Comment #205364 by hungarianelephant on July 7, 2008 at 7:36 am

However, the Telegraph reported that a former aide to Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor, Roman Catholic Church head in England and Wales, who insisted that talks with the Anglican bishops had only started because of tensions over the Anglican communion: "It is obvious things are starting to fall apart and Rome wants to be able to help if it can," he said.

I wonder if he realises what he's just said.

What they couldn't achieve with Spanish galleons ...

104. Religion's role in the climate debate

Comment #205297 by hungarianelephant on July 7, 2008 at 3:14 am

mmurray - Come again?

105. Religion's role in the climate debate

Comment #205265 by hungarianelephant on July 7, 2008 at 1:35 am

Well that was an unexpected article. I was expecting to read about how climate change has become similar to a religion, complete with its own no-fun lobby.

A Kirkland's post hits the nail on the head. The public may not quite spot what's wrong with the way things are being presented, but they know when they smell a rat.

Btw, the thinking behind the long ban on blood donation from former British residents is that CJD has a very long incubation period. In fact, even 10 years might be too short. Of course, the reality is that this is a ban which is completely arbitrary, since there is not a single recorded case of transmission through blood, and even the connection with meat other than CNS material is of the "we can't think of anything else" variety.

I wonder how many people in Australia, Ireland and other countries applying this ban have died as a result of delays in getting blood transfusions.

106. Sharia law 'could have UK role'

Comment #204179 by hungarianelephant on July 4, 2008 at 9:55 am

In other news, a High Court judge decides that Pringles are not potato crisps:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7490346.stm

107. Sharia law 'could have UK role'

Comment #204177 by hungarianelephant on July 4, 2008 at 9:53 am

irate - Indeed. I can see the slogans now.

Banking, only sharia

Fluent in Islamic finance

The world's parochial bank

Because sharia's complicated enough

Get a little Xtra help from Allah

The bank that likes to say "Allahu Akhbar"

Edit: Your money's safe with us (inshallah)

108. Sharia law 'could have UK role'

Comment #204172 by hungarianelephant on July 4, 2008 at 9:19 am

12. Comment #204166 by Fanusi Khiyal on July 4, 2008 at 9:10 am

hungarianelephant and others: get real. Do you really think it will stop there? Do you think for even a second that they will not enforce the full horrors of hudud punishments? Hell, we already have the horrors of honor killings and the murders of dissdents and apostates, not to mention genital mutilation.

No, the demands won't stop there. But I'd be interested to hear by precisely what mechanism sharia financial or marital tribunals will be able to extend their jurisdiction into the criminal law. That seems about as likely as an AAA arbitrator ordering the extraordinary rendition of the plaintiff.

I trust I have been as vociferous here as anyone else in saying that British criminal law should be properly applied to kidnap, rape, wounding and murder which passes as "culture" in some Muslim communities. But it's also important to pick our fights. Arguing about whether some payment constitutes "interest" is hardly a productive use of our time.

109. Sharia law 'could have UK role'

Comment #204168 by hungarianelephant on July 4, 2008 at 9:13 am

11. Comment #204163 by Nova on July 4, 2008 at 9:04 am

Though it isn't true most Muslims were born here, only some were, quite a lot have come through immigration and if we keep going as we are then much more are to come that way - the number of British born Muslims is actually going down fast.

Do you have any evidence to back that up? I'm aware that there is significant immigration in the form of Pakistani brides being brought in (because the British born girls start getting uppity and demanding to be treated as human beings), and also some recent Somali immigration, but that is the first I've heard of immigrants making up a majority of Muslims. Nor can I quite see how the number of British born Muslims is going down. Emigration? Dying faster than they breed?

110. Group Asks for Divine Intervention to Ease Oil Prices

Comment #204155 by hungarianelephant on July 4, 2008 at 8:41 am

Haven't we already seen this story?

111. Sharia law 'could have UK role'

Comment #204152 by hungarianelephant on July 4, 2008 at 8:40 am

3. Comment #204144 by j.mills on July 4, 2008 at 8:31 am

As I understand it, voluntary mediation under Sharia law already exists and so long as it IS voluntary and doesn't conflict with the REAL law, it seems no more objectionable than going to counselling or arbitration.

Exactly.

In the form Lord Phillips is suggesting, it's approximately as threatening as the rules of the American Arbitration Association.

In fact he well knows that sharia is already up and running for a significant number of financial disputes. London is making a significant amount of money from Islamic financial instruments. If people want to conduct their affairs according to such stupid rules, I don't see why we shouldn't allow them. When the government starts forcing institutions to provide a "sharia certificate", then I'll start to be concerned.

112. Did newborn Earth harbour life?

Comment #204146 by hungarianelephant on July 4, 2008 at 8:33 am

Vaal - Good question.

It's contrary to the 1963 Limited Test Ban Treaty. The treaty was negotiated in the aftermath of the Cuban Missile Crisis. Nerves were shot and no one liked the idea of big explosions above ground. Hence all detonations other than underground ones were banned. This specifically included detonations outside the atmosphere.

At the time, it was probably a sensible way of trying to avoid mass slaughter. Perhaps the time has come to amend it ... though you can imagine the hysteria that would be whipped up if any politician suggested it.

113. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #204055 by hungarianelephant on July 4, 2008 at 4:32 am

Goldy, that story about South Africa is extraordinary. Well it didn't take long for African culture to show its true colours. They couldn't even wait for Mandela to die before reversing what he tried to achieve.

114. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #204034 by hungarianelephant on July 4, 2008 at 4:01 am

447. Comment #204032 by Goldy on July 4, 2008 at 3:55 am

I know of a Chinese lass who might fit - they are wanting to be reclassified as black in South Africa.....

Really? I hadn't heard about that. What exactly is the point of being classified as any particular colour in an explicitly non-racial state?

115. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #204031 by hungarianelephant on July 4, 2008 at 3:52 am

Goldy, know you of such a bird?

(Baldrick: No. But we could make one.)

116. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #204019 by hungarianelephant on July 4, 2008 at 3:31 am

Actually I was suggesting that we declare a republic and that the first prez should be ... oh, never mind.

Though I think it might be worth trying a tea drinker for leader again. Maggie clearly drank too much coffee, Major too much warm ale while watching elderly maidens cycling to evensong, Blair too much communion wine, and don't even get me started on Brown. You can count on my vote.

117. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #204014 by hungarianelephant on July 4, 2008 at 3:16 am

bugaboo - You missed my favourite. To a Scots driving instructor: "How do you keep the natives off the booze long enough to get through the test?"

Philip is a national treasure. He has an unerring knack of irritating those who take themselves too seriously. Hopefully he has a few choice things to say about Muslims before he pops off.

Philip for President.

118. Did newborn Earth harbour life?

Comment #203932 by hungarianelephant on July 4, 2008 at 1:03 am

25. Comment #203681 by AoClay on July 3, 2008 at 11:01 am

I believe it was Carl Sagan who said he couldn't think of a better use for nukes than to propel spacecraft.

He did indeed.

Unfortunately, it's illegal to detonate nuclear devices in space. And we don't want Bush in front of a tribunal of international law, now do we?

119. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #203928 by hungarianelephant on July 4, 2008 at 12:48 am

362. Comment #203909 by clearthinker on July 3, 2008 at 11:12 pm

The reason I know that most muslims in Dundee are unhappy at Mr Asifs remarks as a self appointed spokesperson is because it has been in the news here for days - many have written in to the local newspapers (the Courier and the Evening Telegraph) to point out that he does not speak for muslims. Plus my neighbours are muslim and we actually have good relations with the local mosques.

That does not surprise me. I have long thought it is a mistake for the government to deal with self-styled community leaders. It simply gives credibility to the looniest faction.

Is there any chance you can persuade these sensible Muslims you know to speak out and tell us all what they really think about this character? Even a letter to the papers carrying stories like this would be a help. I'm sure we're on the same side on this one.

Changing the subject, can we hear your explanation as to why procedural justice is impossible without God?

120. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #203523 by hungarianelephant on July 3, 2008 at 4:41 am

One thing that's interesting here is that the police apologised for any offence caused even though no one actually complained. The original complaint was that the postcard would be ineffective and hence a waste of taxpayers' money, not that it caused offence.

I wonder if there's some sort of response generator software running in Tayside Police.

  if (criticism && source(criticism) == muslim)
        apologise();

121. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #203496 by hungarianelephant on July 3, 2008 at 3:12 am

Ooh, I dunno. Those hams are pretty special.

Though not everyone thinks so. I have fond memories of an objectionable Sicilian woman in a cafe in Cordoba describing them as "merda" and complaining to the waiter about the fat content, pausing only to tell her husband to vaffanculo and her daughter in law that she was a puttana. I guess she didn't think anyone would understand Italian.

She'd be right at home with the boys in Torremolinos.

122. Faith schools undermined by 'Government witch hunt'

Comment #203494 by hungarianelephant on July 3, 2008 at 3:05 am

Steve - I wouldn't bother with gr8hands. He's been caught making stuff up to suit his argument and all he has left is bluster. It's actually quite amusing to watch him assert that he knows more than me about a school I attended for seven years, and which he knows only through its web page.

As to substance, I think that's an excellent summary of the position. The nonsense posted by Iftikhar shows what can happen when faith is allowed a free rein, but at the same time I just don't think we're going to be able to make a good political case for getting rid of faith schools per se. Frankly, most parents are just concerned about their kids learning things without being knifed. That is why I say we should concentrate on the content.

123. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #203492 by hungarianelephant on July 3, 2008 at 2:58 am

233. Comment #203473 by Goldy on July 3, 2008 at 2:09 am

We're talking about 700 years of southern Spanish history - are you sure they want to whitewash it? Besides, it's exotic - need to pull in the tourists....make those EU funded roads worth the expense! (Been there, BTW. Great - leave the resort as soon as you land and enjoy the landscape! And the hams, ooooooh! Heaven!!)

I'm not suggesting that they whitewash their Moorish history. Just that they can surely find something interesting from the last 516 years. This constant harking back to the past can't be good for them. It's like an extreme version of listening to your grandad's stories from the RAF Durin' the Woar day after day.

As you rightly point out, they could talk about their hams for one thing. You're not going to get those in an Islamic regime.

124. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #203461 by hungarianelephant on July 3, 2008 at 1:26 am

199. Comment #203371 by Brian English on July 2, 2008 at 6:05 pm

If you've ever had a squiz at the Alhambra in Granada or some of the Moorish architecture in Seville or Cordoba I don't think you'd say that Islam and beauty are necessarily at odds.....

True. But on the other hand, these are held up by some, and not just the Andalucian tourist board, as priceless and incomparable jewels of civilisation. IMHO that is preposterous. Does anything in Islamic art compare to the contents of the Louvre, or the National Gallery in London, or the Met? Is Cordoba really more impressive than ancient Rome, or the Gothic Cathedrals, or New York?

There's a very strange cultural attitude in parts of Southern Spain. The way they tell their history, nothing of interest has happened since the reconquista in 1492. This doesn't seem healthy to me. Perhaps it's symptomatic of the West generally.

125. Former state science director sues over intelligent design e-mail

Comment #203457 by hungarianelephant on July 3, 2008 at 1:10 am

mordacious1 is right - the school board get the right to choose trial by jury. However, the jury just get to decide the facts. They don't get to decide whether the policy is unconstitutional.

I wouldn't assume that a Texas jury would be against her anyway. In my limited experience, Southern juries tend to get pretty pissed off about people being pushed around without a fair hearing. Sounds like she has a good chance. Power to her elbow.

126. Mormons urged to back ban on same-sex marriage

Comment #203046 by hungarianelephant on July 2, 2008 at 9:39 am

So anyway. Mormons.

127. Mormons urged to back ban on same-sex marriage

Comment #203040 by hungarianelephant on July 2, 2008 at 9:31 am

Ah, a scantily clad Withington girl ... she was just 16 ...

Sorry, where was I?

[EDIT - There was of course no chance of that link remaining unclicked. And I see that 116 others of you have also done so. Do none of you have any self control?]

128. Mormons urged to back ban on same-sex marriage

Comment #203026 by hungarianelephant on July 2, 2008 at 8:59 am

phasmagigas - STOP IT STOP IT STOP IT. epeeist has already got me thinking about Mount Carmel School for Girls and their brown uniform today, and now you bring up Nigella Lawson. What are you trying to do to me? I'm married, for FSM's sake.

129. Faith schools undermined by 'Government witch hunt'

Comment #202949 by hungarianelephant on July 2, 2008 at 7:08 am

gr8hands - Ok, now I see. It's the weasel thing.

You issued a challenge in grandiose fashion, and I answered it. You may not like the answer, but that is your problem, not mine. You have now tried three times to change the point of the discussion in order to suggest that I have not answered your points.

You are also now claiming that there is iconography on the pews in the church (not in the school). There isn't. Ask me nicely and I'll tell you what it is. Either way, you cannot possibly see that on the web page. So you just make it up as you go along. Perhaps you should stick with theology, which obviously suits your talents much better than rational argument.

Glad we got that cleared up.

Go on, take the last word. You know you want it.

130. Faith schools undermined by 'Government witch hunt'

Comment #202906 by hungarianelephant on July 2, 2008 at 6:10 am

Excluding Muslims may not be racist, but it's abundantly clear from Iftikhar's post that these schools go beyond the teaching of Islam and are intended to entrench Pakistani culture. I think we're justified in regarding that as racist.

131. A secular world is a sane world

Comment #202869 by hungarianelephant on July 2, 2008 at 5:06 am

77. Comment #201110 by BillySands on June 29, 2008 at 3:55 am

On a more amusing note, I saw this today http://www.sundaymail.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2008/06/29/exclusive-love-cheat-priest-joseph-creegan-sues-church-for-unfair-dismissal-78057-20625260/

A priest is going to sue the church for being sacked. He wants a tribunal, but the church are going to argue that he was employed by god and not by them. Wonder how they will get god to appear?

Sorry I'm late to this. There has actually already been one of these cases: Percy v. Church of Scotland Board of National Mission. The House of Lords said that the minister was an employee of the church, not God.

They won't have to get God to appear - the burden of proof is on the minister to show that he is employed by the church, not on the church to show that he is employed by God. And they'll surely be happy to apply consistently the rule that the burden of proof is on the person asserting something.

Won't they?

132. Faith schools undermined by 'Government witch hunt'

Comment #202839 by hungarianelephant on July 2, 2008 at 3:45 am

gr8hands - You asked for one example of a school without iconography, and I gave you two. You are now trying to pretend that the issue is of the curriculum in these schools. I don't know whether this is because you are a weasel, or because you just have very poor reading comprehension. Either way, it's clearly a waste of time discussing these things with you.

The "chapel", by the way, is the local church. And even if it were not, I'd be interested to know when pews became "iconography".

So keep yelling about indoctrination if it makes you happy. Just don't expect me, or the British public, to take you seriously.

133. Faith schools undermined by 'Government witch hunt'

Comment #202825 by hungarianelephant on July 2, 2008 at 3:33 am

Out of the horse's mouth:

79. Comment #202814 by Iftikhar on July 2, 2008 at 3:08 am

Pakistan is only seven hours from London and majority of British Muslims are from Pakistan.

No they are not. They are from Britain.

This backward, separatist, Pakistan-is-great-the-rest-of-the-world-is-rubbish attitude is exactly what is holding British Muslims back.

134. Faith schools undermined by 'Government witch hunt'

Comment #202803 by hungarianelephant on July 2, 2008 at 2:45 am

epeeist - I'd forgotten about Mount Carmel. Those brown uniforms were terribly distracting for an adolescent male.

You are probably right that there's more likely to be iconography in a Catholic school. I was staggered when I came over to Ireland that anyone under the age of 70 had pictures of the sacred heart and such like on display in their homes. It's such bad taste, like having a poster saying "Vote Conservative" in your garden.

Although for truly awful religious kitshc, a trip to Knock is needed. All your Madonna-shaped plastic holy water bottle and "Jesus is Lord" fridge magnet needs fully catered for, in spades.

135. Faith schools undermined by 'Government witch hunt'

Comment #202338 by hungarianelephant on July 1, 2008 at 10:39 am

gr8hands - Actually your assertion was that there was religious iconography / scripture "all over the place". I'll give you two:

St. Mary's, Astbury
St. Peter's, Prestbury

both in Cheshire. I have been well acquainted with both for many years, and have never seen any religious stuff in them, unless you count pictures of the church or hymn sheets. Will that do?

Your experiences in the US, where faith schools are of necessity private, are hardly useful guides to what goes on in the UK, which is what we are talking about.

Millions of people in the UK have been to faith schools and know full well that religion is just part of the background. They are not going to take seriously arguments that what goes on in them is deeply damaging, particularly when a quarter of pupils leave primary school not even able to read.

136. Richard Dawkins on Doctor Who

Comment #202316 by hungarianelephant on July 1, 2008 at 9:38 am

98. Comment #202303 by Richard Dawkins on July 1, 2008 at 9:02 am

My strong suggestion is that the rest of us should simply IGNORE "clear"mind on this topic completely, until he shows evidence of having read at least one book.

Can we perhaps just delete "on this topic"?

Btw, I think he has read one book. He doesn't appear to have understood it, though. [EDIT - Bah, Tyler already made that point. Never mind.]

137. It can be right to discriminate against the religious

Comment #202314 by hungarianelephant on July 1, 2008 at 9:34 am

If you are for human rights, then you have to be against amorphous and toxic "religious rights."

Except at the UN.

138. Faith schools undermined by 'Government witch hunt'

Comment #202277 by hungarianelephant on July 1, 2008 at 7:45 am

Sorry, al-rawandi, I was being facetious. It doesn't come across well on the interwebs.

I'd entirely agree that the faith element is incidental to performance. In the UK, the faith schools managed to avoid much of the Marxist nonsense which plagued the system for decades. No coincidence that they tended to do well.

I'm not aware of any specific data as to the reasons behind the rash of new schools. Forced to speculate:
(1) concerned but stupid parents genuinely believe that their kids do better in faith schools because they are faith schools per se
(2) since there are no other meaningful selection criteria, faiths are the only ones with much incentive to get involved in new schools
(3) genuine religious reasons.

I would guess that (3) is the least important, except, woodenyanoeit, in the Muslim "community".

In true Tony Blair fashion, the government's current thinking is based on two mutually contradictory principles, which it thinks aren't contradictory because politicians are capable of holding them in their heads at the same time. On the one hand, they want uniform, centralised, education. And on the other, they want to get the parents involved. Since the very mention of the idea of academic selection has most Labour backbenchers screaming like banshees, and since a voucher system might actually work and thus put the entirety of the Department of Education (or whatever it's called this week) out of business, meaning of course that it Must Be Killed, that doesn't leave you too many places to go. So we get little bits of selection for special abilities like sport or languages. And the rest based on faith. Excellent policy-making, gentlemen.

Of course, the reason that the English education system is crap (Scotland managed to escape most of the experimentation) is that it's underfunded. We know this, because the teachers unions keep telling us so.

When some figures were finally dragged out of the NSO, they showed that compared to private schools, state schools received a few hundred quid a year less funding. However, this was somewhat distorted by the fact that the private schools included a number of boarding schools, so wasn't a like-for-like comparison. Oh, and it omitted the capital budget for buildings. And teachers' pensions (the second largest item in the private school budget). Incredibly, when you put it all together, it costs around 20% more to educate a child at a state school than a private school. Underfunded, I tell you.

139. Faith schools undermined by 'Government witch hunt'

Comment #202269 by hungarianelephant on July 1, 2008 at 7:16 am

al-rawandi

Thanks for your data ;)

I guess the moral of the story is that faith schools are ok as long as the priests are gay.

Possibly.

140. Faith schools undermined by 'Government witch hunt'

Comment #202265 by hungarianelephant on July 1, 2008 at 7:06 am

48. Comment #202253 by fides_et_ratio on July 1, 2008 at 6:28 am

I've always liked that saying, 'Opinions are like arseholes. Everyone's got one.' There's a lot of rhetoric flying about on this thread but very little evidence of any harm that faith schools do. There plenty of evidence of the good faith schools do, so surely on a site such as this, posters should use evidence rather than rhetoric to counter. In my local borough in East London there are two Catholic schools. Guess what schools achieve the highest science results year in, year out. Yes, those named after saints.

Dear FSM - what is the world coming to? I find myself in agreement with fides. Better drink some tea or I might end up voting Lib Dem.

Now that I've got that over with: fides, that will only take you so far. The underlying assumption in your post, and that of most defenders of faith schools, is that they achieve better academically because they are faith schools. That is plainly false. Those schools are also characterised by having parents who try to get their children out of the "bog standard comps" in their area. As a poster on the "Help" thread pointed out, the stats show that children who are entered into the school lottery do better than their counterparts, but it does not matter whether they win or lose in the lottery.

Have a peek across the water to Ireland and you'll see the "Educate Together" schools - set up by parents who want to get away from faith education - outperforming the religious schools on academic results. The correlation is with parental involvement, not the number of black frocks on the premises or whether there is a saint's name in the title. (Did gr8hands really say that education is invalid if you can't prove that the person the school is named after was a genuine historical figure?)

What I don't understand is why there is so much focus on faith schools. A quarter of UK children leave primary school illiterate. Much as morning assemblies and such nonsense annoys me, I cannot for the life of me see how they could be the more pressing problem.

141. Help protest against misguided report on UK faith schools

Comment #202211 by hungarianelephant on July 1, 2008 at 3:43 am

Y'know, it's like Alien v. Predator. Is it at all possible that both the government and the faith schools could lose?

142. CFI-UN Hamid Karzai Letter

Comment #202207 by hungarianelephant on July 1, 2008 at 3:36 am

Christopher Davis - Just out of interest, do you have any view on what to do about the opium trade?

143. CFI-UN Hamid Karzai Letter

Comment #202206 by hungarianelephant on July 1, 2008 at 3:34 am

23. Comment #201992 by Fanusi Khiyal on June 30, 2008 at 2:42 pm

if this crowd had been around in the Second World War we'd be fighting Nazi insurgents and Imperial remnants to this day

I disagree. We'd have lost.

For me, a defining moment of the Blair government was the aftermath of the 7/7 attacks. "We will increase our efforts to root out terrorism within our society" was the response. Which made me wonder, what the fuck had they been doing for the previous four years? (Answer, not much, except messing around with airline security.)

To fully appreciate the insanity of this, imagine starting to prepare for WW2 in the summer of 1943.

144. Who Was More Important: Lincoln or Darwin?

Comment #202203 by hungarianelephant on July 1, 2008 at 3:28 am

Batman and Franklin. Now that's intriguing.

Cartomancer, personally I'd reject both Kym Marsh and Jason in favour of Elizabeth Taylor. Older, wiser, but with the same damned fine date of birth.

145. Faith schools undermined by 'Government witch hunt'

Comment #202200 by hungarianelephant on July 1, 2008 at 3:08 am

32. Comment #201869 by Apathy personified on June 30, 2008 at 10:59 am

just because it doesn't seem too bad when it's the fluffy CofE, don't assume the CofE will stay 'nice' forever.
Also catholics and muslims (as you point out) run schools have the potential to be harmful to kids

Oh, I agree. The point is that it's the content of what goes on in these schools that's more important.

It occurs to me that one of the criteria for government money should be that the school operators accept the supremacy of national laws and that the school teaches it (ok, strictly that's two criteria). This is an easy sell politically, but orthodox Muslim clerics wouldn't be able to accept it. With luck, we might even be able to create a schism.

38. Comment #201968 by gr8hands on June 30, 2008 at 1:41 pm

Perhaps you might want to reacquaint yourself with what "indoctrinating" means, as it appears you are confused.

Way to start a constructive discussion.

You can't just redefine "indoctrination" to suit your own purposes. If you want to define "lemon" as "all yellow fruits", have it your way, but I'm still not going to squeeze banana on my trout.

You know full well, as does everyone else here, that the issue is whether teachers in church schools (whether in holy orders or not) teach the children to accept religion uncritically. There are some who would like us to believe in some sort of North Korean leader-worship several times daily. This might happen in some places, and it should certainly be objected to. It didn't happen where I went, and the post of julianstirling (202057) is just about the most extreme I've heard from a real person. If we're going to insist that indoctrination is the inevitable result of faith schools, we're going to lose the argument.

In a similar vein:

I am certain the faith schools all have the iconography and artwork relevant to the particular faith strategically placed all over the place -- again, more indoctrination. Perhaps signs with scriptures, or sayings attributed to a deity or so-called prophet -- again, more indoctrination.

Utter bollocks. Try visiting one.

146. Faith schools undermined by 'Government witch hunt'

Comment #201832 by hungarianelephant on June 30, 2008 at 9:55 am

24. Comment #201806 by Dhamma on June 30, 2008 at 9:30 am

The point is, that even if the faith-based schools truly are different, they most certainly do not allow for more critical thinking.

Why not? Are you saying that because they're based on an irrational premise, critical thinking within them is impossible?

What they effectively try to do is to segregate our societies even more, instead of opening it up, as our politicians seem to think.

Are you sure about that?

In Britain you are, by default, assigned to a school in your locality. The thinking behind comprehensive education is that it brings together people of different abilities instead of segregating them at the age of 11. But what actually happens is that you are segregated by neighbourhood, which in practice means segregation by economic status, and possibly race. This was exactly why the US had to introduce compulsory busing after Brown v. BOE.

Parents buy inferior houses for too much money, simply because they are in the catchment area of a "better" comp. Their alternative is to seek out schools which will admit them on other grounds. Since the government won't allow meaningful selection criteria, faith has become an important one. They are more likely to take in pupils from different neighbourhoods and different backgrounds, so long as their parents are prepared to pay lip service to the faith thing.

I really think we can make a big fuss about not very much. It's the content of education that's far more important than who is doing it. The image of vicars and priests indoctrinating kids day after day is just not true, and makes secularists look stupid.

Unless you want to have a chat about Muslim schools ...

147. Mormons urged to back ban on same-sex marriage

Comment #201819 by hungarianelephant on June 30, 2008 at 9:40 am

Quetz - What he's saying is that the difference in buckets of fish is that if the bucket is closed, you cannot say anything about the fish other than that there is a bucket of them.

I think.

148. Faith schools undermined by 'Government witch hunt'

Comment #201799 by hungarianelephant on June 30, 2008 at 9:23 am

21. Comment #201793 by Apathy personified on June 30, 2008 at 9:16 am

Yeah, what a great idea, mix education and ONE religion and let kids only go to school and play with kids of their religious sect....religious apartheid anyone?

And in the playgrounds of my junior school, we spoke of little else.

149. Mormons urged to back ban on same-sex marriage

Comment #201796 by hungarianelephant on June 30, 2008 at 9:20 am

384. Comment #201786 by Robert O'Brien on June 30, 2008 at 9:11 am

"So the concept of 'God' in an ontological argument is devoid of meaningful content?"

No. But He is unique by the identity of indiscernibles (q.v.)

Brilliant parody. I salute you.

Er ... wasn't it?

150. Mormons urged to back ban on same-sex marriage

Comment #201783 by hungarianelephant on June 30, 2008 at 9:08 am

So the concept of "God" in an ontological argument is devoid of meaningful content?