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Comments by Lionel A


101. Noam Chomsky Interview on Faith

Comment #18475 by Lionel A on January 21, 2007 at 5:42 am

I first came to hear of Chomsky in about 1983, having embarked on a teaching degree (as a mature student – post RN/FAA service), where he was revered by the college teaching staff for his criticism of Skinner's theories of learning and thus the support for a child-centred approach.

During the late 1990s I became aware of his other works on politics such as those criticising the foreign policies of developed world states. In this the US, Britain and Australia have come in for criticism WRT their roles in areas such as, and respectively, Latin America (Nicaragua, Columbia, Cuba and Chile), the Balkans and East Timor.

Chomsky is criticised by Sam Harris in his 'The End of Faith' for not recognising the inherent dangers posed by the Islamic creed. However, IMHO, Chomsky is worth reading in order to broaden ones perspective of the effects of 'globalisation' and of the role of such largely US directed organs as the World Bank and IMF (as was) in world affairs. Chomsky's 'Rogue States' is useful here.

goldmineguttd

I have just started reading Dennett's 'Darwin's Dangerous Idea' and will bear your comment in mind.

I have yet to listen to this interview with Chomsky though, but will do ASAP.

102. Federal Way schools restrict Gore film

Comment #18304 by Lionel A on January 19, 2007 at 1:27 pm

scot

I have just visited the site that you cited and discovered that the man behind this is one Senator James Inhofe.

I was puzzled that in the following quote Inhofe sees the debate as a moral issue:

'Recently, advocates of alarmism have grown increasingly desperate to try and convince the public that global warming is the greatest moral issue of our generation.'

until I checked this Wikipedia entry when some things became clear:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Inhofe

Further, Inhofe's reaction to the reaction of most humans to the Abu Ghraib imbroglio was nothing short of astonishing. See:

http://www.counterpunch.org/jackson05122004.html

This fellow Inhofe appears to have not much upstairs (probably why Bush has him on so many committees) and certainly seems to be one to whom reason is alien.

103. Federal Way schools restrict Gore film

Comment #18285 by Lionel A on January 19, 2007 at 10:13 am

scot

I have read numerous sources over the last 7 years or so and been involved in, at times heated, debate. I could post you a whole slew of URLs but this would serve little further purpose. You have already seen some, I hope and know my views.

The URL you gave is a bit slow going for me at the moment but I did note some indicators of its origin within so won't hold my breath about anything there changing my viewpoint.

Your government has been carrying out delaying tactics by encouraging the naysayers to continual point to the uncertainties in the science in the hope of obsuring the bigger picture.

Heck! They even got Michael 'Jurassic Park' Crichton involved in this one when he should have stuck to fiction, but hang on he did if you appreciate the true story here. Besides the science behind Jurassic Park is flawed, so I doubt Crichton would know the truth here if it bit him.

104. Dispatches: Undercover Mosque

Comment #18283 by Lionel A on January 19, 2007 at 9:49 am

So much for the admitted beliefs of so called moderate Islamic organisations, we should expect nothing else considering the content of the Qur'an. Those who have not had a look at this book then do so – all becomes clear as to why we could be in for a whole load of trouble.

As for the prophet having married a girl of nine and thus it is OK to emulate his behaviour this is simply a crime against humanity. I wonder if this is mentioned somewhere in the Hadith, a book of perhaps equal importance to the Qur'an. Some of it can be found at:

http://www.iiu.edu.my/deed/hadith/other/hadith_500.html#NOTE

As for the Christian fundamentalists such as Becky Fischer, of movie Jesus Camp fame, such people should be kept way from children especially considering such things as her encouragement of the laying on of hands with a cardboard cut out of George W Bush (this one was probably more articulate) so as to bless him. Clearly the demons of true evil are alive and well and gathering their respective armies.

I admire the true courage of the likes of Harris and Dawkins for speaking out, highly visibly in print, against the activities of these people.

This Dispatches video should be a must see for anyone who doubts the seriousness of the situation. Any state funding of these organisations should be cut forthwith, and local government should take responsibility for making it difficult for these people to spread their vitriol and inhumanity.

105. 'God Is Not a Moderate'

Comment #18237 by Lionel A on January 19, 2007 at 5:00 am

Thank you Friend Giskard for supplying the correct spelling of pabulum as should be determined by the context in Sam's reply. This concurs with the SOED cited by myself.

Sane1: the correct spelling for the intent is pabulum (the Latin original), Pablum being a proprietary name demonstrates that pablum as used by Sam is an Americanism that didn't travel well, as I suspected. What if I suggested that marmite was the antithesis of pabulum?

As for Pablum, the following makes it clear:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pablum

Having said that I don't wish to continue flogging a dead horse by continuing debate, such a course could become tiresome pedantry, diverting attention from the purpose of this thread.

106. 'God Is Not a Moderate'

Comment #18103 by Lionel A on January 18, 2007 at 10:19 am

What superbly reasoned, and politely put, argument and counter argument. I fear though that any further response from Andrew Sullivan will only serve to prove the efficacy of Steven Winberg's statement (in 'Dreams of a Final Theory'), '…all logical arguments can be defeated by the simple refusal to reason logically.'

Sullivan has already demonstrated his inclination to obfuscate by asserting that, 'Science cannot disprove true faith; because true faith rests on the truth; and science cannot be in ultimate conflict with the truth.' Only the last clause of that statement has any substance, the rest is simply incoherent when the meaning of faith is defined.

From the SOED (Shorter Oxford English Dictionary):
1 Confidence, reliance, belief esp. without evidence or proof,
2 What is or should be believed; a system of firmly held beliefs or principles; a religion,
3 THEOLOGY: Belief in the doctrines of a religion, esp. such as affects character and conduct.

Thus, despite the misnomer of that group Truth in Science, truth based on scientifically proven fact is un-reachable by any proponent of biblical faith and this alone knocks the foundations out from under Sullivan's arguments.

Thus the likes of Eagleton who crow about the lack of theological study behind the work of Harris (and Dawkins), can crow in vain for any faith in the whole word of god as represented in the bible is scientifically flawed and ethically dangerous. Sam hit the nail on the head in 'The End of Faith' with, 'Surely there must come a time when we will acknowledge the obvious: theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance.' All the theological works written warrant no more than a footnote in any modern day construct on the reality of being, being as in existing, life or cosmos.

I would like to thank Sam for 'Increasing My Word Power', only a sprinkling of new words in his book but in his reply above, end of second para' he uses the expression '…sickening pablum'. Sorry but the only meaning for 'pablum' that I can find in the SOED (and I don't have access to the full OED) is 'Pablum, proprietary name for a children's breakfast cereal', maybe it is an Americanism that doesn't travel well.

In 'The End of Faith' Sam gives references to Deuteronomy, now these do not agree verbatim with the words in the King James bible commonly used over here (I thought that it was common throughout much of the world) so which version is Sam quoting from?

Also I note that Sam cites a Dawood translation (1956) of the Koran, currently available in the Penguin Classics series. I was tossing up between this and Oxford World's Classics translation 'The Qur'an' by M.A.S. Abdel Haleem the text of which is very differently nuanced to those quotes by Sam in his book, not enough difference to negate the force of Sam's arguments though.

107. Lil' Markie live, part 2

Comment #17780 by Lionel A on January 16, 2007 at 10:08 am

I reckon Lil' Markie should be encouraged, he is so cringeworthy that he could be a good recruiter for atheism.

108. Lil' Markie live, part 2

Comment #17609 by Lionel A on January 15, 2007 at 5:32 am

Groan!
Groan!
Groan!

I pitty this poor buffoon, but pitty his unwitting audience even more.

Hang on though, all that applause indicates that many of them are witless.

This person needs some serious therapy as will any audience that appreciates this total garbage, garbage on so many levels.

109. Creationism Song

Comment #17606 by Lionel A on January 15, 2007 at 5:23 am

Blast! In the name of Thor, Odin, Zeus and Apollo I will not be able to appreciate American Country music again!

Who was that singer anyway?

Seemed familiar from the 'Root of All Evil'. I'll have to buy the DVD of that now in order to watch it again.

110. Conservative Atheists

Comment #17509 by Lionel A on January 14, 2007 at 8:59 am

Kismettana re #17503

Note that the set of heterosexual parents intersects the set of married men & women. Thus the statement, 'They view marriage between a man and a woman as the surest way to raise stable, law-abiding children' is essentially true but with the proviso that the relationship between the couple is sound and loving along with each of the partners relationship with the children. In other words the set of heterosexual parents is not necessarily inclusive of so many suitable, stable and loving, environments for raising children successfully as is the set of heterosexual married couples.

There is much more to this of course and as a one time fully trained teacher I can assure you that a rich, in learning possibilities, home environment is as important as material riches, indeed too much of the later, as substitutes for time and love, can be as harmful as being a child with one parent and many uncles, or aunts.

To be sure there is another set of same sex guardians but that is another matter raising other issues and so perhaps a study in this area would be apposite.

111. Federal Way schools restrict Gore film

Comment #17505 by Lionel A on January 14, 2007 at 7:42 am

Dreamer's Dilemma ref #17433 and #17420

Please note that it was the tone, using such an inflammatory juxtaposition as 'people lucid enough' and 'blindly follow the dictums of the socialists' of your posting which is unhelpful to measured discussion.

You wrote about blindly following and yet cite an already discredited petition see:

http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/climate/climatecriminals/esso/case.cfm

and have a look at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Seitz

and therein note the reference to 'Chair of Fred Singer's Science and Environmental Policy Project (SEPP).'

Then have a search for Fred Singer's allegancies and known prejudices, a visit to:

http://www.stopesso.com/why.php

may help.

Your use of a quote by Dr Malcolm Ross indicates the political ideology that may be clouding your judgement here. This issue is not about capitalism versus socialism, it is about the survival of our species and the biosystems of the planet of which we are a part.

There may well be 'legitimate' scientists on both sides of the climate change debate but it may be instructive if you investigated the proportions of scientists on each side and also the likely allegancies, qualifications and experience of those 'scientists' who counter arguments for any anthropogenic effect.

BTW The link supplied with Larson's response:

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html#Q2


is informative.

112. Federal Way schools restrict Gore film

Comment #17423 by Lionel A on January 13, 2007 at 2:52 pm

Dreamer's Dilemma

To cast aspersions at allegedly lucid people who can see through the charade of religion being willing to blindly follow the dictums of socialist and secular humanists for presuamably believing that there is a potentially damaging anthropomorphic signature to the greenhouse gas increases in the atmosphere, increases which accelerated as the industrial revolution spread globally, and continues to accelerate, is to ignore the collective opinion of many of the world's leading scientists.

It is also unhelpful to a measured discussion.

As for the 17,000 scientist signature petition that you mention, is this related at all to the petition that was created in the early years of this century where many of the so called scientists turned out to be from well know celebrities – film stars, singers and even cartoon characters?

Sorry but when you investigate the many, many aspects of the arguments then there can be only one sensible conclusion and that is the certainty of human activity having a forcing effect on climate change. A forcing effect which is, and will increasingly, trigger progressively more aggressive feedback mechanisms.

There is already a thread on this topic in the Forum where further argument could be made perhaps.

113. Federal Way schools restrict Gore film

Comment #17384 by Lionel A on January 13, 2007 at 7:25 am

Do I get this story right? One, yes just one, parent has prevented the showing of 'An Inconvenient Truth' to the pupils of a whole school using the support of the school board.

You poor American's! I understood that your democracy was in deep trouble (yes I realise that ours isn't that much better and also withering) but this looks to be an indicator of just how bad things can be. The thought of funatics jumping on this to use as precedence in any future cases fills me with dismay.

I note that Frosty Hardison's wife is judging the movie without, apparently, even watching it! How sad is that? And what about the school board?

As for that dame, the Rev. Beatrice Williams, driving 110 miles to beg her god for lower gas' prices – this has to be a classic indicator of the lack of reason underpinning the actions of such funatics. See story at:

http://www.praylive.com/events/LA_Prayer.htm

114. Richard Dawkins' Report Card

Comment #17058 by Lionel A on January 10, 2007 at 2:03 pm

If Catherine Hurley (any relation of Liz I wonder) intended the inclusion of Richard's early school report as a put-down then her plan has clearly misfired. Richard being the honest and reasonable fellow he is has countered any such intention to cast aspersions admirably, countering many a charge of arrogance which readers of his books know only too well are totally unfounded.

Richard has also assured us of the authenticity of these reports. For that thank you.

As for, 'slow, very slow, and stop' and 'a wonderful facility in escaping work' if only the authors of these reports could have known how that small boy progressed.

As for Rhodesia, I wonder if Richard's time in that now blighted country was linked to the inclusion of the Forward to that excellent book 'The Lion Children' in his, also excellent, book 'A Devil's Chaplain'.

My wife, who spent some years in South African before I met her, thought that the now Zimbabwe was a beautiful country. Now there's a country that could have done with some external intervention, but of course there is no oil there.

115. Intelligent Design packets

Comment #16866 by Lionel A on January 9, 2007 at 9:43 am

I would like to remind our contributors of the fact that the Scientologists are also having a go, see:

http://www.disinterestedparty.com/

116. Intelligent Design packets

Comment #16865 by Lionel A on January 9, 2007 at 9:40 am

Dr Richard Buggs (I hope you read this, you probably will but not bother to reply):

In the video clip you stated:
'We are seeking to have the evidence against evolution taught..'

What evidence do you have for doing this?

Further at:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,59-2392177,00.html

You state: 'We [Truth in Science] are commited to truthfulness and good science..'

So why try and put creationism on the same level as evolution?

I note with some dismay that at:

http://www.truthinscience.org.uk/site/content/blogcategory/51/63/

you roll out a list of twelve senior academics, some un-named, who are supposedly supporting your efforts. Their scientific credibility has surely now been damaged.

If you are the result of intelligent design then why do you need to wear spectacles?

117. Questionable Mission

Comment #16690 by Lionel A on January 8, 2007 at 4:37 am

Now I wonder if the US plans to roll out ten digit finger printing is going to be used to bar 'illegal aliens' with that group being expanded by the religious right and DHS to include those who may threaten their plans to increase the power of the religious lobby.

Keeping fingerprints on file will encourage lazy, or deliberately perverted, investigations on innocent persons in much the same way as a DNA database could be misused, as Richard Dawkins has pointed out in his recent books.

And what about the disabled who lack the requisit number of digits?

Sure as hell makes me feel even less inclined to visit the US, not that I have anything to hide, not even my views on a perverted regime at the helm of the world's only super-power.

118. Secular fundamentalists are the new totalitarians

Comment #16586 by Lionel A on January 7, 2007 at 1:46 pm

Affront and #16551

Glad to hear that you are now 'fully un-saved and completely de-redeemed.' Perhaps this state would be a better use of the term 'extraordinary rendition' to describe.

Jones seems to produce that form of vapid ephemera that is rapidly becoming the hallmark in opinion pieces in some sectors of the press.

What these theists cannot grasp is the well established foundation of current scientific thought. I have just come across this description in Paul Davis's 'The Goldilocks Enigma', page 118, 'The distinctive feature of science is that it is both broad and deep: broad in the way it tackles all physical phenomena, and deep in the way it weaves them, economically, into a common explanatory scheme requiring fewer and fewer assumptions. No other system of thought can match its breadth and depth.'

119. Secular fundamentalists are the new totalitarians

Comment #16520 by Lionel A on January 7, 2007 at 5:16 am

Reg and Comment #16326:

Utopian Dreams has been reviewed again in today's Observer. The reviewer, Toby Lichtig, writes: 'There is ultimately something maddeningly vague about Utopian Dreams' so it seems that vagueness is Jones's style.

See: http://books.guardian.co.uk/reviews/politicsphilosophyandsociety/0,,1984216,00.html

Scooternyc in Comment #17517 asks, '…is this guy living under a rock?' I would wonder what he is taking, for that could be one explanation for his incoherent outbursts.

120. Secular fundamentalists are the new totalitarians

Comment #16393 by Lionel A on January 6, 2007 at 1:25 pm

In my humble opinion this semi-literate ('…their revenge on us believers…'), part educated (needs to look up the meaning of 'totalitarianism' and 'post-modernism' for a start) excuse for a newspaper columnist has argued himself up his own fundament.

Here is just one reason why. He has tried to place atheists in a 'post-modern' set and then writes like a post modernist himself e.g., 'Broadly speaking, it attempts to deconstruct power and its narratives. It tries to rescue the marginalised.' He then throws out a platitude, 'A noble intent, but because it doesn't believe in truth, anything goes.'

Please Mr Tobias (unprintable) Jones try to discover on which side the truth lies. It surely is not a characteristic of the life of those who take things on superstitious faith.

Please Mr Tobias (unprintable) Jones try to discover the difference between knowledge gleaned from many decades, centuries even, of scientific examination and testing and the half-baked fancies conjured up by over active synapses in a deluded brain. Science is slowly uncovering the very truth of that last statement but of course you are probably too brain damaged to be able to recognise that simple fact.

121. Reading of The God Delusion in Menlo Park, CA

Comment #16081 by Lionel A on January 4, 2007 at 1:48 pm

I have just returned here to listen once again to David Cowen's superb intro - a classic IMHO and I hope that recent newcomers will notice this flag and watch.

122. Pat Robertson: God told me of 'mass killing' in 2007

Comment #16078 by Lionel A on January 4, 2007 at 1:27 pm

jha:

That's just MAD!

Good though. :-)

123. Let's Hope It's A Lasting Vogue

Comment #16052 by Lionel A on January 4, 2007 at 9:39 am

I would like to read a copy of Dan Dennett's 'Breaking the Spell' but have not seen this one for sale yet in my local branch of the biggest national book chain and Hampshire County Council Library has only two copies for the whole of the county.

I think this is typical of libraries and bookshops in the UK on this and related topics.

I don't particularly like Amazon, keeping good book stores in town centres is becoming an issue, besides my comment elsewhere (in the 'Executing Saddam ...' thread) may provide another clue as to why I don't trust them.

I see that a paperback edition of 'Breaking the Spell' is due to be published March 2007.

124. Pat Robertson: God told me of 'mass killing' in 2007

Comment #16037 by Lionel A on January 4, 2007 at 8:26 am

An audience of 850,000!

Now I know why the word minions was invented.

125. Pat Robertson: God told me of 'mass killing' in 2007

Comment #16028 by Lionel A on January 4, 2007 at 8:05 am

Another story on CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/01/04/fallen.object.ap/index.html

tells us that god continues to throw rocks at us.

Hey! Pat Robertson as you have a direct line can you please ask god to stop it!

But then Robertson's direct line (like Haggard's) is probably to GWB, and let's face it I doubt that one can even tie up his own shoe laces, let alone throw rocks. ;-)

126. Letter From America: Atheists throw down the gauntlet

Comment #15890 by Lionel A on January 3, 2007 at 2:05 pm

... Christian fundamentalism engaging in no violence or threats.'

Cognitive dissonance is rampant amongst these commentators.

That is just one example from the above, taking the piece apart anymore will serve no useful purpose.

127. Executing Saddam Hussein was an Act of Vandalism

Comment #15819 by Lionel A on January 3, 2007 at 7:22 am

Hussein, of course, was a monster but what created him as such? His earlier life was one of learning to survive, and prosper, in a brutal and capricious environment, the breeding ground of the thug that he became, a thug who accrued a following which he manipulated to climb the rungs of increasing power, until he reached the top in his country.

Having got there, and having made numerous enemies along the way, he had to administer more brutality and other forms of coercion to maintain his position. Preservation of his power base necessitated that he attempt to take on the role of champion of Iraq and then the Arab world, well at least those sectors of it which were not oppressed by being 'of the wrong faith'.

As leader of Iraq, a country created out of a miss-mash of provinces after WW1, by the allies and oil barons keen on preserving access to their gravy train, his increasingly bellicose regime require arms and other forms of support from other countries, many in the west. Apart from the US, France, Germany and even Britain took part in supporting the development of Iraq's infrastructure and military capability and of much of its maintenance.

Thus in nearly every country involved in material support to Saddam's regime there are those who would prefer that Saddam was silenced. The role of the US as a Saddam prop is unquestionably large, for it was they who provided Saddam with his tools for war on Iran, including the chemical warfare agents deployed, and even biological agents which were not as far as I know.

Indeed, examination of the dealings of the Regan and first Bush administration is revealing. Rumsfeld for instance was involved, as was James Baker III (of Baker, Botts – law firm for America's energy giants, the Bush family and the House of Saud) and many others in the US, the countries mentioned above and others.

The following books are revealing:

'House of Bush, House of Saud: The Secret Relationship Between the World's Two Most Powerful Dynasties' by Craig Unger. Curiously the copy I have has 'BANNED BY AMAZON.CO.UK' emblazoned on its front cover, make of that what you will,

'American Dynasty: Aristocracy, Fortune, and the Politics of Deceit in the House of Bush' by Kevin Phillips,

'Crossing the Rubicon: The Decline of the American Empire at the End of the Age of Oil' by Michael C Ruppert,

and Greg Palast's web site at:

gregplast.com is worth watching and exploring.

As for Hitler, I recall reading that he was mistreated in some way by the Jewish community when he was young which may have caused resentment that grew to rancor in later life having gone through the mill of WW1.

128. Beyond Belief 2006 Videos

Comment #15726 by Lionel A on January 2, 2007 at 9:41 am

Cassandra

I have only just now managed to begin watching Session 10 and I would like to point you to Richard's short contribution in this session at 01:00:46 where he states that he took strong exception to Konner's remarks with respect to, in 'Unweaving the Rainbow', asking a 6-year old girl to think about how long it would take Santa Claus to go down all the chimneys in the world, and stated that if Konner had still been at the conference that he would have demanded an apology.

To be sure Richard could have had a chance to do that during Session 9 but perhaps, not knowing that Konner was leaving as seems to be the case, he was saving that for a more opportune moment.

Again, I find your seeming glee over Konner's swipe at Dawkins rather unhelpful to discourse.

129. What are you optimistic about? Why?

Comment #15718 by Lionel A on January 2, 2007 at 8:39 am

andyinsdca

'And, as flippant as this sounds, there are still plenty of stupid people that simply won't listen to reason.'

That is not flippant at all, as Steven Weinberg wrote in his Dreams of a Final Theory, 'David Hume saw long ago that in appealing to our past experience of successful science we are assuming the validity of the very mode of reasoning we are trying to justify. In the same way, all logical arguments can be defeated by the simple refusal to reason logically.' My emphasis.

130. Beyond Belief 2006 Videos

Comment #15712 by Lionel A on January 2, 2007 at 7:35 am

Cassandra

Konner's '… couple of examples of peer reviewed work that showed religiosity was heritable and that it gave some protection against mental illness' may require further inspection. Unfortunately, by no longer moving through academic circles, I am not in a position to inspect and discuss with qualified commentators.

Although I have found this:

Intrinsic and extrinsic religiousness: genetic and environmental influences and personality correlates
Authors: Bouchard Jr, Thomas J.; McGue, Matt; Lykken, David; Tellegen, Auke
Source: Twin Research, Volume 2, Number 2, 1 June 1999, pp. 88-98(11)
Publisher: Australian Academic Press

Koenig cited at:

http://www.acperesearch.net/aug05.html

seems to be based on a small and localised sample.

Kendler I found at:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/451741

Another thing that strikes me here is the concentration on using twins for research. Sure I can see the thinking behind this methodology, but does not the use of twins raise other biological inheritance isssues. Perhaps this is one for Richard to have a look at in the light of his extensive knowledge in that field. Meanwhile, as time permits, I shall be looking into his books again at relevant sections.

There may be an element of inheritance involved here (after all as I believe that God and religion is all in the brain then the way brains are wired up may be to some extent heritable), but are you sure it is genetic inheritance rather than nurture (using such a term in what could be classed as a negative way) at work here?

Also, protection against mental illness, I beg to differ, I have felt the effects of mental illness brought on by religiosity all my life. My grandfather was a Baptist minister and was demonstrably insane for much of his later life and he had a definite negative impact on the mental attitudes of my mother and her sisters.

Also one of his grandchildren is overtly religious and at the same time rather unstable another feature that I have felt the impact of. I didn't use the word 'baleful' lightly in a previous post. And before you cry, 'that goes to support the role of heredity', I beg to differ. I was infected from an early age by virtue of being immersed in it all, literally at one point, but have escaped as the wonders of scientific discovery and rationality have increased their impact.

Further, and picking up on your earlier post, your seeming glee at Konner making 'hilarious fun of Richard' tells me much about the balance of your current thinking. And people consider Dawkins rude!

Now as for 'acolytes' of Dawkins, from within the 'Church of Dawkins' attacking your remarks – what should you expect when you use inflammatory language such as this.

However, don't fool yourself; I don't think that you should worry that your remarks will be pulled off, after all most of us are considerably more tolerant than you seem to be yourself.

131. Beyond Belief 2006 Videos

Comment #15704 by Lionel A on January 2, 2007 at 6:38 am

Cassandra WRT your 82 (#15700) and 77-81.

And there was me thinking that you were just trying to ram home your message. :-(|

When I first opened up in this site's home page I noted all the new entries from you and thought, 'Strewth, Cassandra has been busy!';-)

132. Beyond Belief 2006 Videos

Comment #15691 by Lionel A on January 2, 2007 at 4:47 am

Cassandra in comment 72 (#15311)

Your assertion that Richard originated the analogy of viruses and bacteria is quite correct and his analogy was quit valid and I stand by my assertion that Konner's response 'You wouldn't like to get rid of all the bacteria in the human body', was stupid because Konner was extrapolating and ignoring (perhaps deliberately to provoke a response, knowing as he must have done, Richard's deep understanding of the mechanisms of life and the evolution behind them) the prime function of bacteria in many processes inside body and without which we could not survive.

Perhaps by accusing Konner of woolly thinking I was being too kind as it is distinctly probable that he was being deliberately provocative. Indeed, watching this session again I sense the almost hidden smug satisfaction with which Konner rounds up a point and then sips from his water bottle. I have now found Konner much less impressive.

Konner accuses Richard of always blaming just religious dogma (01:58:20 session 9), Richard does not and if Konner had been listening to Richard he would have realised that. Konner appears here, to finish putting over his point and switching off. Just because with his latest book, and earlier, Richard has concentrated on religious dogma does not mean that this is all that he considers responsible for massacres in the world. However much ethnic tension in the world is related to religion, that is an inescapable truth which should not be lost sight of.

That Konner had to ask what the dogma was that was behind Hutu government forces massacring 800000 Tutsis in Rwanda demonstrated the conceptual blinkers that this man must be wearing. I suggest that Mr Konner does some research (Harris tries to help him out by citing a book 'Machete Season' but Konner, in overbearing mode, clearly doesn't want to know and talks Harris down for a moment or two so that the reference is all but lost) and learn what the different belief systems were that underpinned that tension between the two factions.

Richard earlier (01:55:02 session 9) correctly highlighted the basic, negative, approach of Konner's, and Woodward's, arguments which is that religion is here to stay so there is no point in even trying to argue against it in order to diminish, let alone extinguish, its baleful effects and that it is this sort of argument that is causing a road-block in the efforts to improve inter-human relationships. Richard correctly dismisses the reasoning that because it is difficult to counter the effects of religion that it is pointless trying and that we should give up.

Richard is absolutely right in questioning such accommodating ideas whith his, 'I believe in the human race and the human race believes in god. Can't we grow out of that?' After all, as he frequently points out, most have grown out of a belief in the tooth fairy and Father Christmas. What is the blockage that is stopping some moving a stage further? It is the very woolly thinking of folk like Woodward and Konner.

133. William Crawley, BBC Belfast, names Richard Dawkins as Person of the Year 2006

Comment #15596 by Lionel A on January 1, 2007 at 1:59 pm

Dylan Dog:

I have just had a quick look there, read as far as Billy and bailed out. Who was he, 'Billy Graham Junior' or was his rant supposed to be satire?

134. William Crawley, BBC Belfast, names Richard Dawkins as Person of the Year 2006

Comment #15556 by Lionel A on January 1, 2007 at 9:22 am

Balanced, I am not so sure,

Thinking that science and religion are incompatible is a delusion - hum!

For being 'rude' - again hum!

Perhaps Prospect magazine is overrated.

135. Beyond Belief 2006 Videos

Comment #15155 by Lionel A on December 29, 2006 at 7:29 am

Well it is taking me awhile to get through these videos due to other commitments (and the need to download a number of sessions again that were corrupted first time around) and am now about 3/4 through Session 9 with a heated discussion going on between Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins on one side and Melvine Konner on the other, with occasional interjections from Jim Woodward.

It seems to me that Konner just does not get the picture with respect to the way that religion underpins the reasons for much of the conflict in the world today, let alone in the past.

Neither can he seem to grasp that the Nuremberg rallies are being used to equate their mass hysteria effect with the similar effect generated by religious fundamentalists and their methods today.

To challenge, Dawkins in particular, with 'You wouldn't like to get rid of all the bacteria in the human body..' as some kind of analogy with ridding the world of religion was foolish in the extreme.

As much as I appreciated much of Konner's talk anybody who can come out with such an analogy, even off-the-cuff, is clearly prey to much woolly thinking.

136. How the Great Atheist got polite society standing

Comment #14953 by Lionel A on December 27, 2006 at 8:03 am

LDmiller:

Wordstar, I remember it well (still have it around here), as well as WordPerfect which was once all but the de-facto standard in office practice - Business Studies departments in UK colleges insisted that this could be used, this under MS (or DR) Dos (running on-top of Acorn RISC OS in some cases). RISC OS was a system which in 1989 had font anti-aliasing superior to that now available with Windows. My attempts at manipulating some True-Type font characters in a vector drawing programme (Xara-X) inclines me to think that they still don't use a proper scaffold, for similar operations using ArtWorks on a RISC OS system is comparatively child's play.

I used an Acorn Electron WP StarWord for much of my work at university in the mid 1980s.

I do wish that MS had not attempted to enable Word to produce html docs (there are much better ways of doing this which includes learning a little html) and stuck to making it more robust, reliable and consistent at its core task of WP.

Sorry for this off-topic diversion but there is a relevance of a sort, or perhaps should I call it a resonance, and that is that I am slightly uncomfortable with the connection between Richard and a one-time member of a company which could be seen to have perverted the course of computer usage development. On the other hand we should all be gratefull that Charles Simonyi has chosen to back Richard in this way in what is a most worthwhile and very important field of research and advocacy.

137. How the Great Atheist got polite society standing

Comment #14898 by Lionel A on December 26, 2006 at 2:35 pm

Irate Harry

I agree, it has been a trend with this paper to run opinion columns by those who don't have much of a clue about any of their chosen topics. This is one of the reasons why I ditched it.

138. How the Great Atheist got polite society standing

Comment #14897 by Lionel A on December 26, 2006 at 2:27 pm

Yet another lackluster diatribe from The Sunday Times and in the same edition as that awfull 'Thunderbolt' spread. I am very pleased that I no longer pay money out to read this paper.

As for Charles Simonyi having invented Excel, my knowledge of computing and its history tells me that Excel is a spreadsheet program which may have been developed by Microsoft but as software the invention of the spreadsheet was down to one Dan Bricklin with his VisiCalc. Besides, didn't Lotus 1-2-3 predate Excel?

Here in Britain there was something called Mini-Office for the Acorn Electron and BBC B series and also the rather fuller featured Viewsheet (allied to the View wordprocessor and ViewData database program) in the mid-1980s.

139. The Courtier's Reply

Comment #14874 by Lionel A on December 26, 2006 at 8:02 am

Superb piece PZ, should be printed out, framed and presented to every town centre preacher.

How many books on 'fairyology and hobgoblinology' is a sore point. Judging by the shelves in the local Waterstones there are many more of this ilk than those covering rational thinking (perhaps local groups, as they form, could put on special displays in or near such premises). How many books by astrologers do we need?

A visit to Waterstones website is equally disappointing.

140. A Mission to Convert

Comment #14873 by Lionel A on December 26, 2006 at 7:53 am

Orr appears to be taking some very strong medicine.

What a diatribe, or dire tribute if you prefer for dire it certainly was.

I am heartily glad that Orr did not write 'The Little Red Hen' for I would still be reading it to my kids, the youngest of whom is thirty.

141. A Christmas thunderbolt for the arch-enemy of religion

Comment #14818 by Lionel A on December 25, 2006 at 12:56 pm

Irate Harry thank you for providing a context for the ire of Cornwall, a classic case it would seem, poor fellow.

142. A Christmas thunderbolt for the arch-enemy of religion

Comment #14817 by Lionel A on December 25, 2006 at 12:55 pm

Logicel:

troublingly it would seem, according to a recent article in The Observer, that the Roman Catholic Church in the UK is bouncing back due to the many migrants comming from Africa, South America and Eastern Europe.

But then these disparate groups in time are more likely to cause fracturing and discord. Watch this space as they say - with some trepidition and a heavy heart.

143. A Christmas thunderbolt for the arch-enemy of religion

Comment #14783 by Lionel A on December 25, 2006 at 4:27 am

What utter tripe from somebody who has the gall to describe Dawkins as 'historically naive' and then go on about The Church in the Dark Ages being a source of comfort for the distressed, what does this excuse for a thinker consider was responsible for the Dark Ages in the first place.

Why can he not grasp that Dawkins has never suggested that he is a substitute for god? How could he for he does not believe in such a fallacious concept as god.

Further, by the misquoting of Richard, he dares to accuse Richard of 'a pitiful lack of background reading.'

That the Times (Sunday at a guess) should go to a double page spread for this dire diatribe, or the best part thereof, demonstrates how this once illustrious paper is descending into the realms of its stablemate the good ol' News of The World, i.e. not to be taken seriously. Hence the reiteration of the tired old arguments WRT Stalin and Hitler.

This article has plumbed new depths in my opinion, otherwise nothing new.

What upsets me is that twits like this are paid, presumably, not inconsiderable sums for this idiocy. I had the wrong job for years it would seem, but at least my mind is easy.

Now to get on with Christmas :-)

144. Richard Dawkins on the Mike Dickin Show

Comment #14702 by Lionel A on December 24, 2006 at 2:43 pm

Well there are a large number of fruit cakes around at this time of year and this programme sure turned up a number of them.

Sorry for the strong terms here but these folk deserve it.

For example, that prat who stated that he didn't have enough time to read TGD, how on earth did he find the time to 'phone in?

If only these numbskulls took a little time to read books on evolution, and other sciences of import, they would realise what fools they are making of themselves. Clearly wilfull ignorance abounds in society today.

Mike Dickin, your form of balanced interviewing is now even more rare.

145. The Trouble with Atheism

Comment #14225 by Lionel A on December 21, 2006 at 2:22 pm

The Free Church of Scotland website has much by David A Robertson.

In his 'column' on

http://www.freechurch.org/issues/issues.htm
he writes

'My fear is that postmodernism will result in a significant dumbing down of our society...', quite what this has to do with atheist debate is unclear. Perhaps he misunderstand postmodernism, not having read 'Post Modernism Disrobed' in one of Richard's books.

Robertson goes on:
'...the old teachings of atheistic secularism (which have so largely been defeated at least at an intellectual level) will make some kind of come back...'.

What planet is this man on! Atheist secularism arguments 'defeated'? He clearly is light in his study and grasp of the huge knowledge base to which many scientific disciplines have contributed, which form the basis of the true understanding that underpins our atheist stance.
Robertson, and others of his ilk, thus cannot grasp the fact that atheist understanding is quite a different concept to that of the belief in supernatural entities that form the core of religious belief.

Knowledge verses belief, note the difference Mr Robertson.

When, Mr Robertson, will you achieve sufficient powers of rational thought to realise that the tack of all your articles on:

http://www.freechurch.org/issues/2006/issues06.htm

is based on falacious, unproven, writings of an old text which cannot stand up to scientific examination and testing? Please read some more of Richard's books and books by other authors who explain how the scientific knowns of today have been arrived at, that is by peer reviewed, and repeatable, scientific procedures.

We atheists do NOT have a faith position.

We atheists do NOT have gurus or sacred texts for atheism is not a religion.

Religion is by definition based upon blind faith, whereas atheism is based upon proven facts.

146. 7 monks injured in clash over monastery

Comment #14140 by Lionel A on December 21, 2006 at 9:09 am

Yorker 'Glad to see a few of us have a sense of humour, I was beginning to think it would be impossible to raise a laugh out of you lot!':

You must be kidding. Your admission of being Scots (note to the rest of the world not Scotch – that is something we drink) and with a name like Yorker made me chuckle with reminiscences of times on Naval exped(ition) in Glen Coe.

There was a piper dubbed 'The Mad Piper of Glen Coe' who used to trudge the glen playing his pipes and also irritating folk in one of the pubs of a Saturday night with same said pipes. The amusing bit was that he was a Yorkshire-man.

PS I always thought it was the Welsh, in yellow wellies, who had the reputation over sheep. ;-)

147. The Trouble with Atheism

Comment #13991 by Lionel A on December 20, 2006 at 2:16 pm

Well I did not get far before Liddle indicated that he was going to have precious little real argument to offer and most commentators above indicate that this is true.

Statements such as:

'Atheists are becoming as intransigent about their own views as the people they so despise. Atheism is becoming a religion of its own, it already has its gurus and its revered sacred texts.'

and

'When you think about it atheism is a rather peculiar thing, nothing more really than a belief in a negative.'

not to mention

'...Dawkins being a fairly decent scientist too.'

I am pleased that Evolved has sent in a note of complaint.

I am pondering if I could go the top and ask the father of Channel 4's Director of television but then, although I know him, I don't exactly move in the same circles as retired Admirals, well not often anyway.

Liddle is one of those commentators who pushed me away from reading the Sunday Times regularly, his ignorance on his chosen topics was increasingly iritating.

Sorry Beebhack but perhaps Rod's 'little grey cells' are not working too well these days.

Whatever, there is some interesting feedback on Channel 4's own Forum at:
http://community.channel4.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/69460501/m/6380050096

148. Grandparents linked with church-going

Comment #13259 by Lionel A on December 16, 2006 at 1:21 pm

Point taken Yorker but seriously [ ;-) ] IME of USENET for example one cannot always take the lack of a smiley as a sign that a remark such as the one in question was not a throw-away line, part in jest.

149. Grandparents linked with church-going

Comment #13232 by Lionel A on December 16, 2006 at 9:58 am

Laurence with respect to post #13111 and in particular your idea of removing the voting rights of the 'over sixties' I must object, although I think this was a tongue-in-cheek' remark by yourself.

My grandfather was a Baptist minister and my mother was, and still is, deeply religious and ensured that I was well indoctrinated during my first 15 years of existence. However I broke free.

I am now myself a grandparent, nine times over, but neither I nor my wife are believers and both appreciate that the earth is about 4.55 billion years old and we both believe in evolution.

These values, with the help of Richard's books and many by other authors, are being passed on down to our children and now grandchildren all of whom are now borrowing from my growing library. A library which includes works by Charles Darwin, Stephen Jay Gould, John Gribben, Martin Rees, Roger Penrose, Richard Feynman, all of Dawkins, Paul Davis and Richard Corfield.

Corfield's 'Architects of Eternity' is an excellent explanatory tour of the methods and science behind the dating of events in earth's history and 'Cassell's Atlas of Evolution' is recommended for its wealth of stunning illustrations and comprehensive coverage of the development of this 'pale blue blob' and the life upon it, especially recommended for the younger readers.


Either my wife and I are atypical of grandparents in this country (but knowledge of other relatives and friends suggest we are not) or the Manchester study is flawed in some way.

150. Scientologists get £270,000 subsidy

Comment #12746 by Lionel A on December 13, 2006 at 2:41 pm

Perhaps some of we atheists should infiltrate this obnoxious cult to see just where their so called charity goes.

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