101. Richard Dawkins at Conservative Party Conference 2008

Comment #264456 by Nairb on October 14, 2008 at 12:34 pm

PAERSON, Al

The issue here is not Sharia.

The issue is Arbitration law allows people to use a wide range of rules for deciding disputes. Arbitration law is part of British Law so subservient to it.

No new law is being created, this is not due to PC or a Cave-in by Brits. Muslims have just started to use the arbitration law to resolve certain disputes according to their rules.

I dont like this either , but the problem is NOT british people caving in, its Arbitration law that is the problem.

The way to fix this in my view (while keeping sensible arbitration) would be to force any Arbitration Rules to be compatible with the European Court of Human Rights.

102. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #263940 by Nairb on October 13, 2008 at 11:27 am

Short infomercial break from Palin :

Makes my day after markets have bounced back - thank goodness Gordon Brown had a plan.

In its ruling issued on September 5, the Halde(Government Autority against racism) considers that "the obligation [...] to remove the burqa or niqab" as part of compulsory Integration Studies does not constitute religious discrimination. Especially in the context of "integration process".
As often during these delicate affairs, the HALDE advanced technical reasons, such as learning a language, "the" dictates of public security, "the need" to identify people. "

And for once raised the issue of gender equality. "Religious freedom is not absolute: it can be restricted if there is sufficient cause," said its chairman Louis Schweitzer.

Gender Equality trumps Religous freedom!! :-)

103. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #262403 by Nairb on October 8, 2008 at 12:50 pm

Alan Baylis

Thanks much appreciated.

104. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #262379 by Nairb on October 8, 2008 at 12:09 pm

Jews weren't REALLY Germans... according to Hitler.

Al,
Yes I am afraid this is an example of what happens when people are willing to suspend civilisations human rights rules to go after some usually exagerated threat.

I can somewhat imagine how fascists came to these views in a 1930s world with no access to communication media, much more deeply held prejudices on religion and race, fairly rude economic environment etc etc

What amazes me, really amazes me is that people can consider going a similar route in todays society!

For me this is the ultimate in cowardice.

105. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #262358 by Nairb on October 8, 2008 at 11:45 am

They ARE humans.

Al
You beat me to it.

Humans have Human Rights.
They were especially enshrined after world war II when they had been "forgotten" for security reasons resulting in atrocities.

106. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #262351 by Nairb on October 8, 2008 at 11:30 am

Al

Ireland was the last place in the observable universe to allow the sale of condoms ;-)


PS doesnt mean they are cheap !

107. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #262346 by Nairb on October 8, 2008 at 11:26 am

Styrer
I still dont understand why you are so pessimistic.

Ireland has been 95% catholic for a long while and is getting less religous.
Fanatical muslims are probably rarer then Desert Foxes there :-)

Now you have condoms on sale, divorce, abortions... soon you will be as decadent as the rest of us.

Rejoice!

108. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #262328 by Nairb on October 8, 2008 at 10:32 am

We may one day be faced with a manifestation of faith - and who is to say that something more anti-human, more death cultish than Islam might not occur in the future - which requires the execution of any identified faithoholics to be carried out without equivocation simply to keep the human species viable? What are we doing here most days if not lamenting and bewailing the dreadful roads down which FAITH can lead?

Styrer,
Why the bleak outlook. I would say the opposite is far more likely.
I cant really understand why in Ireland their should be such fear of religous dogmatism. Its not like Ireland has been free from this over the past 1000 years.
I heard recently that Ireland is losing its religion faster then any other country has. Go Ireland! Hardly a reason for gloominess.

And perhaps I'm being wrong but its difficult to imagine there being many fanatical muslims.
The last time I was there heterogeous/multicultural it was not.

109. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #262324 by Nairb on October 8, 2008 at 10:24 am

Al
Comment #262309 by al-rawandi
Agreed 100%

I think you may be mistaking me for a pacifist :-)
I am for robust defense of "my own" values.
I am not a pacifist, nor am I for pacifism.

I think violence should be the last solution. That doesnt mean never.

110. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #262306 by Nairb on October 8, 2008 at 9:53 am

Al

Using violence is usually the wrong solution, but I am not against it per se.

Havent been following the thread ( just last page) so I am not accusing anyone of anything.

111. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #262300 by Nairb on October 8, 2008 at 9:33 am

Al

Your comment has a grain of truth. More then a grain. But so as not to be unfair to socialists/democrats I think so does this.

Fortunately there are people with heads who are willing to fight so people can sit in their living rooms playing toy soldiers, with self importantly concerned faces, thinking up these "perfect world scenarios". Someone else gathers their food and protects their human rights and thus these "facists" and "ultracapitalists" have plenty of time to be unrealistic, because NOTHING depends on them. It is precisely their uselessness that affords them the leisure.

By the way with equities going south like never before, looks like we are all going to be socialists - like it or not.

112. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #261753 by Nairb on October 7, 2008 at 10:03 am

Al
I think you may have misunderstood what I meant.

Faurisson was convicted in court 4 times of Holocaust denial. My point was that I find it difficult to imagine that anyone would be unaware of this.

For me denying the holocaust is anti-semite.(at least 99% of the time).

113. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #261744 by Nairb on October 7, 2008 at 9:45 am

5244. Comment #261701 by al-rawandi
Chomsky bends all notions of honesty and decency to defend his slave morality, one where the people he labels victims are always victims and the people he labels oppressors are always oppressors. It is the same circular reasoning as the Bible confirming God's existence.

And I won't even get into his defense of a Holocaust denying, Neo-Nazi Frenchman as "Not an anti-semite".

I dont know about Chomsky but If in the last decade Chomsky or anyone else said he was unaware of Faurisson's Holacaust denial then I think it can only be due to not looking hard enough.
Like it or not for its impact on free speech, in France, denial of the Holocaust or Crimes against Humanity is a crime. This law is in conformity with the Europen convention of Human Rights (contested and confirmed 3 times). So its easy to know when someone does deny Crimes against Humanity.

Robert Faurisson has been convicted in court of it 4 times and is currently being investigated for a 5th.



Robert Faurisson's first sentencing was pronounced on 8 July 1981. He was sentenced to one symbolic franc for stating that "Hitler never ordered nor accepted that anyone was killed because of their race or religion." The sentence is upheld on appeal two years later.

On 18 April 1991 he is sentenced a hundred thousand francs suspended fine for "disputing a crime against humanity" by the 17th chamber of Paris. In an interview with "Shock of the month" (September 1990), he said, that "the myth of the gas chambers is a gredinerie" and there are"excellent reasons not to believe in this policy of extermination of Jews, or in the magic gas chamber, and I will not "go along"/travel in a gas truck. "

He was sentenced on 27 April 1998, to twenty thousand francs fine for "disputing a crime against humanity" by the 17th chamber of Paris, for having denied the existence of the Holocaust in a letter published in the weekly magazine Rivarol on 12 July 1996 .

The last conviction date following the complaint filed by 3 Anti Racist Movements, following remarks made in February 2005 on the Iranian channel Sahar 1. He challenged the existence of an attempted extermination of Jews by the Nazi regime, claimed that the Nazis sought a "territorial solution" to install the Jews in another country (like Palestine) so that they would no longer be "parasites" and attributed to epidemics the deaths of people whose bodies appear on photographs.

On 11 December 2006 Robert Faurisson took part in a conference on the Holocaust held in Tehran bringing together the main negationists worldwide. Following this President Jacques Chirac asked for the opening of a preliminary investigation about the speech he declared at the conference .
He can be prosecuted on the basis that what he said was reported in French media and therefore subject to french Law.

114. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #260002 by Nairb on October 4, 2008 at 11:40 am

WTF! Hezbollah? "We" ---U.S. and France---kicked out Hezbollah out of Lebanon? That would be SYRIA, Senator.

LastGreekStanding
Maybe I misunderstood but Hezbollah has not been kicked out of Lebannon.

Not by USA, Not by France, Not by Israel and Not by Syria.

I think anyone who knows anything about Labannon knows this. So I am abit surprised by Bidens remarks.

115. Catholic priests cane YouTube over blasphemous vids

Comment #259499 by Nairb on October 3, 2008 at 12:37 pm

Trying to convince them otherwise, rational discourse, and ridicule are one thing. Destroying something they care about, as you make mocking videos about them is another. This is far less respect than you (I would hope anyway) would show people in normal situations.

Mitchell,
I agree. But not to many people said that during the Fitna period.

116. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #259383 by Nairb on October 3, 2008 at 9:57 am

Styrer

I appreciate you being against bullying but in that case you should know that your style of arguing (cursing etc) does come accross as a bit menacing at times.

At the risk of being chastised by Decius what ideas do you think were dismissed unfairly? I think there have been months of debates about many ideas around muslims and immigration.

I think Fanusi is a big guy and was not bullied. My guess is he chose to retire because his presence on the other website undermined the neutrality of his position when proposing certain extremist ideas here (eg deporting muslim citizens).

I dont think the extreme right has been a problem in Ireland but I am sure you know it has been and continues to be quite an issue in other european countries.
And as a result it does carry baggage.Baggage it deserves.They are responsible for a lot more then bullying.

117. Petition YouTube for Pat Condell

Comment #259125 by Nairb on October 3, 2008 at 12:18 am

Hawt4dawk

I think he was a bit repulsive as a character.
Though this impression may be exagerated by his detractors at the time.

However he is perceived in France as having had a positive influence on republicanism at the time.
(Political incorrectness, support of the individual in the face of progress, Social and Universal Equality,the hypocrisy of social norms and hierarchy , the intrinsic goodness or at least purity of man and nature)

These ideas were rather revolutionary at the time and are still with us to some extent today.

Anyway perhaps I am all wrong, interested to know what you have to say in your report.

118. Petition YouTube for Pat Condell

Comment #259121 by Nairb on October 2, 2008 at 11:36 pm

Goatboy

You seem to be trying desperately to misrepresent Steve.
Instead, if you have a point on the subject why dont you make it.

119. Petition YouTube for Pat Condell

Comment #258876 by Nairb on October 2, 2008 at 12:53 pm

Al


"Il n'y a que la force de l'Etat qui fasse la liberte de ses membres." Jean-Jacques Rousseau

It is only the force of the State that makes the liberty of its members

120. Petition YouTube for Pat Condell

Comment #258869 by Nairb on October 2, 2008 at 12:44 pm

I'm no expert, but arbitral bodies definitely wouldn't be allowed to do things that infringe recognised human rights i.e. the ECHR.- Hungarian Elephant

Steve
If that is true then I think that should solve your/our problem.

Unfortunately I dont think it is. From what I saw in the Telegraph article, the sharia arbitration seems to give women less importance in inheritance

We need a lawyer here.

121. Petition YouTube for Pat Condell

Comment #258789 by Nairb on October 2, 2008 at 11:07 am

PBUM, Hungarian Elephant
or anyone who knows British Law

Are there any constraints applied to the procedures or rules used in an arbitration?

Surely there must be some.
I am hoping here alignment with human rights might be one such constraint.

122. Petition YouTube for Pat Condell

Comment #258764 by Nairb on October 2, 2008 at 10:44 am

I think PBUM and Hungarian Elephant are making good points.

If we dont agree with them I think it is up to the opposing point of view (me included) to produce the evidence because it is the default situation (see below)


Several people have said we are introducing Sharia Law. We are not I believe.
As far as I understand from previous discussions, the "sharia courts" are working under Arbitration Laws.
Also any ruling has to comply with British Law. (Though I would like a confirmation here)


The key questions I think are:
what is the scope of the sharia arbitration
should we allow Arbitration tribunals to use a set of rules and procedures that are contrary to Human Rights.

If we take an example eg leading to women being given half the inheritace of men. We can see that this is probably contrary to what a British court would decide but would be accepted by British Law because it had been agreed by all parties to accept the outcome of the Arbitration court.
If the woman disagrees she has to go to a civil court to overturn it. I would like any Arbitration to be obliged to apply the same rule as the British court in the first instance. In other words that the scope should be limited to areas not covered by British Law (eg only muslim issues).


I also think having Sharia tribunals will slow down integration, but I dont think we can use that as a strong reason to oppose sharia based arbitration.

123. Petition YouTube for Pat Condell

Comment #258472 by Nairb on October 2, 2008 at 4:32 am

"But any arbitration agreed voluntary should not be any business of ours. "

PBUM, Hungarian Elephant

If I understand correctly this is the nub of your argument.
I think this is a good approach. But there is always some restrictions on this. We do protect people from themselves. In commercial contractual deals etc.
I think this protection we provide to people can be good.

So my point is your argument is usually limited depending on the potential abuse possible.

124. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #257441 by Nairb on September 30, 2008 at 12:43 pm

I have been too busy to keep up with this thread, but before it closes I want to at least to say something


Al, sciros and a few others
I appreciate your reasonableness about judging Fanusi's behaviour.
Nothing is ever completely black and white. And I strongly agree that strong and well founded evidence should be produced to back up claims.
I agree with those that think Fanusi should not be "banned". We have no right to do so.

However in my experience Fanusi :
has some views which are exclusive to the Extreme Right(deportation of citizens)
has restated often debunked theories (muslim majorities, breeding like rabbits)
makes sweeping generalisations combined with evidence that is paper thin
calls us to do something against muslim fanaticism (rightly) but happily communicates with and is well known to someone who seems to be a right wing fanatic calling citizens to take things into their own hands and for filling muslims with lead.
Appears to be worried about population explosion but after an initial lukewam "thanks for the info" then goes on to quibble and try to undermine the demographic reports
Seems largely impervious to arguments (unlike Al who has some similar views)
Seems to be a cultural supremacist (Muslims contributed nil to civilisation)

Some positive points: he seems to defend women and to some extent homosexuals and is generally not abusive ( I dont remember too many "Fuck off you jerk"). He seems couragous in combating muslim fanaticism.
No doubt he has other positive points.

All these together do not prove he is a racist. (Racism is about Race not culture anyway). Nor some sort of devil.
But it does leave a strong impression about him which for me is negative.
If he stopped doing some of the things above and publicly repudiated his seemingly close acquaintances on the other website my view would change.

I also think this proposal to stop coming here if we delete posts rather unacceptable.
Finally what Fanusi does or doesnt , is or isn't, do not change the truth or untruth of his arguments about islam/muslims. But personally when I have looked closely I have found many of them unfounded.


PS I dont feel that Titania or Decius or Steve have anything to answer for here, I feel they were overall quite reasonable after initially giving Fanusi a chance to explain.


Al
Stick around and stop saying "Fuck off". Thats an order! ( No evidence required)

125. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256569 by Nairb on September 29, 2008 at 8:40 am

Fanusi

I can see how someone can thank others for asking about their injured father.
What I am surprisd at is you do not distance yourself immediately from the persons far out view?


Also what does LC mean? It makes you look like some paramilitary

126. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256540 by Nairb on September 29, 2008 at 8:16 am

Fanusi
The points I am suprised at are those in bold.
Also a bit surpsrised you did not distance yourself from the implications of the writer.

Fasusi, I am sorry about your dad.
But I have no respect for those you hang out with.

What is LC?

127. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256515 by Nairb on September 29, 2008 at 7:45 am

Tatania
Well done.

Al,
We (particularly those active today) have been debating his views for a long time. I would say even refuting them.Or at least pointing out the falacies.

Its maybe time to call a spade a spade?

http://www.nicedoggie.net/2008/?p=2109



After refering to the far right march in Cologne and the article here (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4799490.ece) the writer Emperor Misha of EurabiaWatch says

Also not mentioned, and we can mention it only because we have other sources, in this case the father of our very own LC Fanusi who was actually present at the protest, is the fact that those "brave democratic anti-fascists remonstrating with the vile right-wing extremists" weren't "merely" resorting to vandalism, random violence and assorted other thuggery, there was also a "mysterious" explosion at a local train station preventing a lot of protesters from attending, an explosion that obviously wasn't nearly mysterious enough to make it into the Dhimmi Stream Media.

LC Fanusi's dad who is well past 70 years old was, by the way, nearly murdered by a couple of pisslamic turkish "democratic anti-fascist remonstrators", and when he appealed to law "enforcement" for protection against the would-be murderers, he was told that they had other, presumably much more important, things to do.

Yes, it has come to this. Neither the press nor the police are willing to do their jobs anymore. It is up to individual citizens to set things right if they're to be set right at all. Obviously, this has nasty implications, since such a solution will inevitably end up being a whole lot more messy than it needed to be, but it's either that or surrender to the Haji hordes.

We didn't start the fire, but it looks like we're going to have to dig out our own fire hoses to put it out, because it's becoming increasingly obvious that those elected to do so for us have absolutely no interest in doing their jobs.

It may "only" be Eurabia today, but you can rest assured that it will reach our shores too.

Unless we start hosing the Saracen savages down ourselves.

With lead.

To which LC Fanusi comments
<>Thanks for the prayers and condolences.

128. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255888 by Nairb on September 28, 2008 at 1:58 pm

Steve
You are automatically tuning out, Its the brains defense mechanism to avoid its suicidal death :-)

129. When Atheists Attack

Comment #255886 by Nairb on September 28, 2008 at 1:54 pm

This is a bit long so -
The point I am making is that before making sweeping statements about entire communities :
- We should get our facts right and from a reliable source
- and have checked our evidence before we expect others to be convinced by it
- its upto claimants to bring the evidence otherwise the proposal gets dismissed
and finally

In France Antisemitic and racist violence comes from the Extreme Right as much from muslims, while about 50% of it cannot be attributed to either of these groups.



Some time ago Fanusi mentioned "Islam is the problem" citing "Synagogue burning in France."

Fanusi provided a New York Times article on one such synagogue attacked in 2002. It mentioned Jewish and Muslim leaders, the Palestinian representative in France and French politicians all condemning the antisemitic act.
The perpetrators were not known nor did any of the above people in the article suggest who the perpetrators were. Only the reporter made a link to what he called tension between the jewish and Muslim community due to Palestinian Intifada.

Since "Islam was the problem" I asked for evidence that this was not the Extreme Right.
I live in France and am as familiar as anyone else here with the events that have occurred here. I had a vague recollection things were not quite so simple.

Muslim based violence was kicked off spectacularly in France in 2000 by the Intifada ie a political conflict (Islam has been in France for 30 years).
In reality Muslims were not linked to the case cited in the New York Times article - marseilles synagogue.
Also just as an indicator all the synagogues attacked in 2007 were identified as Extreme Right attacks (as opposed to Arabomuslim attacks)

The following data comes from the Consultative National Commision of Human Rights in France in 2007
http://www.ladocumentationfrancaise.fr/rapports-publics/084000167/index.shtml?xtor=EPR-526" target="_blank" >http://www.ladocumentationfrancaise.fr/rapports-publics/084000167/index.shtml?xtor=EPR-526
The 300 page report obviously gives a slightly more nuanced picture then its all Islams fault. Such violence comes in many forms and is triggered by different events.


Some info From 2007 Report on Racism, Xenophobia and Antisemitism in France - Consultative National Commision of Human Rights

The data is broken down into two groups Antisemite and Racist/xenophobic.
The numbers dont strike me as big (one or two hundred) violent acts per Year in a total population of 60 Million. Not really comparable , but for perspective there are about 300 peole killed in car accidents per Month in France.

First looking at all Violence(Racist, Xenophobic, antisemitic)
10 year picture
Note over 10 years - Violence (Antisemite or Racist) has gone up and down from 1997 - 37 to 2007 - 160 with a peak of 379 in 2004
Historically over the 10 years it has been split as follows :
Non attributed 44%
Corsicans, 19%
Muslims 22%
Extreme Right 15%

In 2007
Non attributed 50%
Muslims 22%
Extreme Right 23%
Corsicans 4%
Zionists 1%

Tendancies
Muslim violence seems to be tending down from a peak of 109 in 2000, averageing 35 over last 3 years.
Extreme right violence has grown steadily to a high in the 50's in 2004 and dipped a bit since
Corsican violence peaked in 2002 and 2004 in the 70's and as fallen away almost completely since

Antisemitic Violence
In the particular case of Antisemite Violence (personal violence,degradations property) tend to be divided between
Arabo Muslim 40%
Extreme Right 15%
Not attributable to a particular group 45%

Personal Violence tends to be more Arabo Muslim
Degradation of buildings/property tends to be more Extreme Right (of which all 6 Synagogues attacked in 2007).

130. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255475 by Nairb on September 27, 2008 at 4:34 pm

Hawt4dawk,

Arbitration allows jewish courts for a long time in UK. These muslim "courts" have just used the same approach.
I deplore this. But this is in the UK's existing laws. No law has been added or policy changed I believe to allow muslims do this.
Also I am not aware of this happening in other European countries.
Since arbitration is usually a good thing I think the government in UK should restrain it/control it in some way as they have done in Ontario.
However much I dislike this , I dont read it as "End of British civilisation". Hopefully the Daily Mail or Telegraph will pounce on this at the first weird ruling and then the govt will take a look and shut down all this garbage. In the meantime they cannot do anything that is illegal.

Education : the same control can be applied. Religous schools can be given required curriculum and guiidelines/rules about other subjects. Hate speech is obviously out.

In the end this is for the British Govt and people to vote these laws. But note they affect all religions.

131. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255470 by Nairb on September 27, 2008 at 4:20 pm

alan baylis

Good thoughtful post. You should do it more often.

The trouble is, this is not just hyperbole to Fanusi, he really does think we will become so cowed, or perhaps, sleepwalk into a muslim theocracy. Paranoia.

Are you sure? I think people who have a real overarching fear of muslims and a belief that they will bring an imminent end of civilisation do not argue as eloquently.I think someone with such a fear would not sleep at night. All the more so given that he convinces few people here.

I think Fanusi hates muslims but I dont think he fears them.

132. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255469 by Nairb on September 27, 2008 at 4:08 pm

Wanna bet? Look, they tried, and almost succeeded in killing the frickin' Mayor of Paris for being gay.

Fanusi,
As usual your information doesn't check out.
The attacker was a guy who disappeared from a Pschiatric hospital the april before.

Pertinent remark and web link to the main TV station report below:
"zedine Berkane, qui avait blessé avec un couteau le maire de Paris Bertrand Delanoë en 2002 et avait disparu en avril de l'établissement psychiatrique où il était interné,..."

http://tf1.lci.fr/infos/france/faits-divers/0,,3452020,00-agresseur-bertrand-delanoe-interpelle-.html

133. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255341 by Nairb on September 27, 2008 at 10:28 am

Hawt4dawk

I am not sure there is anything to repeal here. As far as I inderstand, they just started using the arbitration law amongst those willing to come to them.

You could have done the same yourself!

The issue is with the long standing abitration law in my view.

134. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255331 by Nairb on September 27, 2008 at 10:17 am

Bonzai (oops actually Steve)

Agree almost completely with you that from a political point of view thiose ideas have no hope of happening.

So, I think it is up to people who believe there is a real problem with extremists (that includes me) to come up with realistic and practical solutions,

I agree that extremists are not going to find the right solution to problem. Mainly because they see a greatly exagerated problem and are relaxed about how you apply human rights to others.

The key question is : what is this "threat" and how much of a "threat" is this.
Unless we get the right answer to this (based on facts not stories and feelings) we are either going to underreact or overreact.
As Styrer knows from Northern Ireland, getting it wrong can delay by decades a good resolution of the issue.

Personal i "feel" that UK is a small bit too relaxed on dealing with extremism while France is about right. Right now I see different actions addressing secularism and immigration and education which I like.

I might go a bit further but I am not anxious about the situation.
Happy to be convinced to the contrary though.

135. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255314 by Nairb on September 27, 2008 at 9:42 am

Styrer

My guess it has to do with trhe economy.In boomtimes they need immigrants so teaching them english was a must.
Now that the economy has difficulties they need to stop all that and maybe put things in reverse

Just a theory
The Uk seems to have done something similar in 2006
"The most notable change in this year's UK Feedback survey, which canvassed students at both private and tertiary language centres, is the glaring lack of Chinese students compared with the results of our previous surveys of separate sectors. "

http://www.hothousemedia.com/ltm/ltmbackissues/apr06web/apr06feedback.htm

136. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255307 by Nairb on September 27, 2008 at 9:22 am

Bonzai

I have no idea , I read it in the article. Styrer should know. It may be possible to work or at least to "massage" while being a student :-) in Ireland.

Anyway the point I had was that while I have no difficulty imagining a police force being racist, I think at a governmental level its likely to be for a different reason.

The end of the article said :
"If gardai were to raid any of the premises openly working as brothels, the girls could be prosecuted and deported -- or, if their student visa papers are in order, they could be simply released -- and they would then again be in the hands of their slave masters."

137. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255299 by Nairb on September 27, 2008 at 9:02 am

Styrer

Is it about "Chinese students" in Sex Parlours as the Independant talsks about?

The garda sources said they had no idea how the girls came to be in Ireland but thought that most were probably here on student visas -- the most common form of entry into the country for Chinese workers.

Apparently the Garda cannot act agains the women providing umm.. a service.... when they have student visas.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/new-chain-of-brothels-hits-the-suburbs-1436273.html

138. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255294 by Nairb on September 27, 2008 at 8:43 am

"On asking immigration quite why such a massive turn-around had happened, our industry body was told 'no problem, each case is based on its individual merits'. "

Styrer,
What is the honest reason for this, do you know. Is it economics? I hear the Irish economy is slowing rapidly.
Or is it something else, not enough places for Irish people etc?

139. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255288 by Nairb on September 27, 2008 at 8:24 am

I think a lot of this is perception about basic facts.
The majority of people in Europe and US do not lie awake at night about the fundamentalist threat of muslims or christians or religion in general.
Nor do we jump out of bed in the morning with this in mind. I dont think even extremists like Fanusi think of the "threat" at this level.
So we don,t have a strong opinion on immigration or education or even multiculturism.

If I thought the country I live in really was about to be overrun by people of an extreme religous bent (orthodox jews, radical islamists, end time christians) I would effectively want strong/draconian laws against religion and strong selction programs for citizenship or immigration.
This is why its so important to get hard facts backing up our assessment of the situation.


There is evidence of some hardening of islamic views ( christian also). I dont have survey stats at hand but I have seen some. The question is how serious is this? Is it temporary?
Unfortunately it is hard to assess.
Also many of the "slogan" statements about islam turn out to be not credible (demographics, breeding like rabbits, governments asleep etc).So people just tune out.


As for Sharia in Britain, I really regret these religous courts, but I dont think 100 "court" cases a month controlled by and constrained by the judiciary is not really the central issue.
If we had some legal person who knew this area of law well we could probably assess it better.


A more significant action I think would be to secularise the state. As Steve said to control immigration based on respect of british law and conventions and a secular framework applied to all schools. If the school does not teach this ie 90% of time on the framework then they lose funding. Completely private schools should be equally controlled.

I the end this is all moot. Stopping immigration is extremely unlikely politically never mind deporting citizens. At best there will be some reduction and hopefully with a new PM some better control of schools.

EDITED for clarity

140. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255248 by Nairb on September 27, 2008 at 6:22 am

Styrer

Thats pretty clear. I dont see anything outrageous here like deporting citizens.

If by sharia you mean any religous law applying to say divorce and such like, then I would like to agree.
There are 2 issues here. The first is where does sharia begin and end.
The 2nd is Islamic or Jewish "courts" are gettin in under Arbitration law.
On the first.
Al Rawandi mentioned that Sharia can be in the "heart".
If it included islamic banking or funds then its probably mostly harmless.It seems mostly about setting up contracts to pretend to not pay interest and not sell pork.

The core part , ie telling you how to divorce or saying womens testimony is worth half a mans is outrageous.
This is the part that seriously needs to be addressed.

For the 2nd Part : how to address it- the difficulty comes from arbitration law.
Maybe a way would be to outlaw religous organisation managing such arbitrations.Or some other approach involving a hard and meticulous look at arbitrations. Maybe only governnment agencies should be allowed to do it. Abitration has many merits. But its being misused here.


The seperate areas can easily be part of housing policy by the government(council housing). For individuals I dont think there is anything you can do. I would say the issue is more around the very poor and can be addressed by housing policy.

Dont know what you mean by reeducation. To integrate people they need to be taught secular principles, constitution, civil law , history etc. Its easy for the governement to do this by ensuring any religous based schools that get any money to be obliged to give a minimum hours to these subjects with regular controls.


On No more muslim integration it seems harsh and probably unconstitutional. Whats you justification?
If any religous comes into the country I think its as effective to ensure they are secularised.

EDit :The bottom line here is I think the British government is not that inclined to impose secularisation.(hence the tiptoeing and "multicultural" approach which clearly isnt a success)

141. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255237 by Nairb on September 27, 2008 at 5:37 am

Styrer

I dont pretend anything. And dont uphold inhumanity. But I do uphold taking action when its deemed necessary, proportional action
If I understand you correctly your muslim friend had become a fundamentalist? A bit disappointing of a mathematician. Whats PPE?

Any way my original question was what is your precise action proposed as its hard to give a yes or no to a question if its too general.

142. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255227 by Nairb on September 27, 2008 at 4:54 am

My whole proposition is this - ... - then is it not a logical conclusion that we MIGHT have to readily dirty ourselves, admit to things with which we do not agree, KILL those theists whom we overall think stand in the way of a proper progression over LIMITED time on this cooling planet, and just have dirty done with it all?

If someone is threatening death then its normal to take an active defense which could mean death to the attacker. So the choice is kill or be killed. The lesser evil being kill the assailant.

But usually the police and army are there to do deal with such threats to law and order at a society/international level.

Its not really very clear what you mean. Nor if you mean it for the Army or police to carry this out.

If you say I want the Death Penalty for a new crime X and define clearly the crime then it would be easy to evaluate with a Yes/No.

143. When Atheists Attack

Comment #254876 by Nairb on September 26, 2008 at 10:55 am

Steve

"I actually think that Fanusi provides a valuable service in highlighting all kinds of threats to our society"

I am inclined to agree.Some people tiptoe too much when it comes to other cultures, but I think this more true in UK then in France and other european countries and the US.

For me, its just that its become a case of the boy who cried wolf, I cant bring myself to listen anymore.

If anything Fanusi is having the opposite effect of what he desired.

144. Mysterious New 'Dark Flow' Discovered in Space

Comment #253433 by Nairb on September 24, 2008 at 12:36 pm

Steve
If the universe is getting bigger, are we all getting bigger too?
What is our Rate of expansion then?

145. When Atheists Attack

Comment #253415 by Nairb on September 24, 2008 at 12:13 pm

Sciros,

As I said before, you have used 3 or 4 different arguments to avoid giving evidence. You fill your posts with insults.
Then you criticize me for not reading the "evidence" you provided after that.

Are you even aware that you are not coherent?

Now you say my posts are content free.
Do you realize I have been trying to get you to understand the same message for a while. How many varieties of the same message would you like?

Glad you admit to be finally getting the message.. only after I repeated the message for 3 days


I am only embarassed for you.

146. When Atheists Attack

Comment #253383 by Nairb on September 24, 2008 at 11:38 am

If you think the claim Fanusi and I made is unreasonable, if you think that the incidents are not borne of a problem Muslims have with Jews, then I would like to see you propose an alternative hypothesis.

Sciros
I dont have much time to spend on you ridiculous arguments.

My point from the very beginning is the same and its very simple.
The CLAIMANT provides the evidence.
To repeat
The CLAIMANT provides the evidence.

Proposals without evidence get dismissed without evidence.
It is NOT for me to run off and find evidence against your claims, when your claims dont stand up in the first place.


To illustrate this further and so you dont hide behind any definitions of anecdote, scientific etc

Fan A : My Team Ipswich is the best Football team for all Time
Fan B : Got evidence?
Fan A : Sure I got this New York paper which talks about the really nice shorts the players have and how sharp they look
Fan B : Thats it?
Fan A : Yes
Fan B : Does it say anything about any matches or stats on their games?
Fan A : No stats are subjective and unscientific. It says the Prime Minister came to see them play
Fan B : I'm not convinced yet
Fan A : Then its upto you to provide the stats to the contrary

Fan B : Ok, I'm convinced now, they must be the best team in all time


Thats your argument. You expect me to be convinced like Fan B!

Can you imagine one Football fan in the world that would be convinced by your argument?

147. When Atheists Attack

Comment #252626 by Nairb on September 23, 2008 at 12:45 pm

Sciros



The Claim was "Islam is a threat" - the citing "synagogues are burnt in France"
I asked for Evidence of the link - "Have you data that it points to muslims and not NeoNazis?"


You respond by saying that scientific evidence was not possible (I asked for something between anecdote and scientific proof)
You claimed "Regardless, there does seem to be strong suggestion that Jews are less safe in many European countries today than they were, say, five years ago."
Then you say "The claim is that there is evidence to suggest that the Islamic populations of some European countries are posing problems for other populations"
Then you imply that multiple anecdotes is significant evidence

Then when none of the above works you say "I would like to see what evidence you have to support these alternate hypotheses"

Evidence? !!!!!


So after all the insults and different objections to providing evidence to me - You ask Me for evidence !

The next time - just say you dont have evidence - and dont waste peoples time.

148. When Atheists Attack

Comment #252285 by Nairb on September 22, 2008 at 7:08 pm

Sciros

My approach is the way it is because I have seen too many off the cuff sweeping remarks about whole populations.
I have tried responding with evidence, analysis, data from reputable source. But there have been way too many claims to keep up with.

Those that I did look into were bunk.

Islam as a belief may well be correlated with crime or crimes against jews. I dont know. But before I would claim it in public I would find some strong data to support it.

I expect the same of others.

I dont feel I am being oppressive or mean or insulting when I do that.

149. When Atheists Attack

Comment #252279 by Nairb on September 22, 2008 at 6:41 pm

hawt4dawk

Thanks :-) He's just angry, dont know why.
I have a degree in math but I wouldnt call myself a mathematician :-)

Goldy

Actually they are the same here. (Don't tell Fanusi)
Our minister for justice is a muslim judge (no not sharia for pete's sake). She is aslo divorced on her initiative, doesnt wear a burka :-), unmarried and now pregnant- with lots of speculation on who the father is
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4674060.ece

I cant think of a better role model

And yet the muslim population hasnt gone berserk , no riots, calls for sharia, not a word.
I just get mails from my muslim friends saying (proudly) the father is Prsident Sarkozy and that it might be a political manouver on the part of Rachida Dati

150. When Atheists Attack

Comment #252255 by Nairb on September 22, 2008 at 5:38 pm

Sciros

You are changing the subject to 9/11 to try to defend your point.
Your arguments for not providing evidence dont stand up.

If you think providing anecdotes is enough then we could natter on all night.


I have asked for evidence of a claim about a population. I have calmly told you why.

You have huffed and puffed and talked around the subjects while trying to be insulting.


If someone claimed Liverpool was the worst team in the british league - would you ask for evidence ( eg performance statistics) or would you launch into a philosophical discussion on "statistical significance" and anecdotes?