Comments by William

101. Why there is no God

Comment #4126 by William on November 2, 2006 at 10:58 am

Comment #4118 by Jack Sparrow

I still like you Jack, but I find your reply alarming.

>>Luke 18:25? I think its clear that Christ decides and he does so on the basis of his own intrinsic experience and knowledge. In other words as Son of Man and as one who has "suffered in every way as we have suffered" he can judge with empathy and experience. As the Son of God he can judge with perfect justice and with perfect knowledge. This is, of course, beyond our comprehension but if one allows for Jesus being who he claimed then its not an issue.<<

God shouldn't have made the rules so difficult and sketchy should he? The fact still remains.. how much is too much wealth? How much is too little, or enough to be able to follow Jesus?

>>Matthew 15:4. I think that Cursing here doesn't refer to bad language but putting a curse on parents or doing so in the name of YHVH. I think we all endorse killing in some cases and the only question is what circumstances justify it. Personally I don't have a difficulty with Jesus' words.<<

I'd agree. It's not a 'curse' as such, but maybe wishing one's parents dead. This doesn't make it a crime though. I could THINK about committing murder - but that doesn't make it a crime. The only time one can justify killing is in self-defence. I DO have a problem with Jesus's words here. He clearly condones killing for the idea of a crime. Just the concept of a crime. This is clearly ludicrous. Here again, a Theist (yourself Jack!) highlights what we Atheists so despise - that you can consider life so unworthy and so easily dispensed with. I don't agree with murder ever. I don't agree with executions ever. I don't agree with war - except in the case of survival or self-defence. But believers have the crutch of heaven to fall back upon and so find life cheap. A good example of this is 9/11 and 7/7. Okay, a little extreme, but this is something NO ATHEIST would do, in the name of our cause.

And your Bible proclaims Atheists as fools?!? We cherish life, far more than believers!

Kind Regards, William.

PS. I still like your polite debate Jack. I wish other Theists would be as polite - instead of taking a 'holier-than-thou' root, or the straight forward 'preach-preach-preach' approach, like others in here.

102. Tired of all the religious garbage? It's time to become an Enlightenist

Comment #4113 by William on November 2, 2006 at 10:31 am

An unusual name - for an Atheist, Melbranche!

I too, do NOT change my stance when alone. As an Atheist, I actually prefer to be alone, when thinking about existence.

I'd say that thinking about existence alone, only clarifies my position of an Atheist.

I can't subscribe to this God lark. There are some real Pious individuals, who REALLY believe that condemning homosexuals - for instance - will win them favour with God. This highlights their warped sense of view - because, surely, if they really believed, then they'd leave the judgement to their God?

Kind Regards, William.

103. Dawkins v God - stop the fight

Comment #4072 by William on November 2, 2006 at 8:42 am

Agreed Serge.

Often, when they can see the flaws in their arguments, Theists then espouse that Atheists are SMUG. We aren't smug. I don't hold any particularly impressive titles - but I do like to think rationally about our existence. For myself, Religion/ God and all the other fantasies are just that; make-believe. Oh! I'd love to be wrong. I'd love to meet my Grandfather, who died 30 years before I was born. Sadly, I can't see a rational reason for that ever happening.

Great comments above all! It takes time to read through them, but I read them all. I like learning and I wish Theists would choose to learn, instead of just preaching doom, gloom, naysayer and repent all the time. Their arguments, for myself, are becoming worn out and tiresome.

Kind Regards, William.

104. Fundamentalist Religion and Science

Comment #4069 by William on November 2, 2006 at 8:35 am

Dragutin said:

>>Hi William,

I suggest you start behaving in a decent way. <<

Okay Dragutin. I DON'T have a Phd. Let's say that my earlier posting was aggressive. I'll apologise if you felt it was. Sorry. Though I don't see how my posting was undignified. You religious zealots regularly turn your noses up at us Atheists - and we are expected to take it. However, I wholeheatedly apologise if any offence was taken.

As a usual Theist, you use obsfucation and evasivesness to avoid Atheist agruments. You DIDN'T address my passages from the Bible. Why not?

I want you to answer the following. I want a clear, precise definition from you. I've stated this before on here and didn't get a satisfactory answer.

Is God Omni-max and how do you know? (Omnipotent, Omnibenevolent, Omniscient etc.,)

Okay. I am asuming you think this is the case?

This deity then is PERFECT.
Assuming this deity can form CONCEPTS, then everything this deity creates, thinks or acts upon, by DEFINITION HAS to be PERFECT too?

Agreed?

Clearly, the Universe and EVERY OBSERVABLE phenomena in nature, life et cetera is NOT PERFECT.

Agreed?

Therefore God cannot exist. It contradicts the pemise of Perfection.

Agreed?

If not, why not? HOW can a PERFECT CREATOR GOD, make AN IMPERFECT UNIVERSE, containing IMPERFECT BEINGS?

Couldn't he be bothered to make them PERFECT in the first place? WHAT is the point of our IMPERFECTION?

I would like an answer to this and to my earlier Biblical passages - which you arrogantly and skilfully evaded.

Just to help you on the way to your answer: The Oxford Dictionary lists PERFECT as thus:

Having all the required elements, Qualities, Characteristics; Free From Any Flaw; Faultless, Complete; Absolute;

Explain to myself and my fellow Atheists HOW a being FREE FROM ANY FLAW could conceivably create ANYTHING which is IMPERFECT and FULL OF FLAWS?

Kind Regards, William.

PS. I'd like an answer to my earlier passages from your Bible. They are evil in conotation - I'd like them intepreted from somebody claiming to be an authority - i.e. yourself.

105. Why there is no God

Comment #4023 by William on November 2, 2006 at 4:46 am

Hello Martin. I read all your comments and find them in the whole, in agreement with my own thoughts.

It seems we have both reached the same conlusion at the same time, concerning Asana.

Now if Asana is just a zealot, who HASN'T read any of Professor Dawkins books, as I suspect, then Asana can be forgiven, A LITTLE, for sheer ignorance.

If, however, Asana REALLY believes what Asana is saying, then Asana is just Highlighting everything Professor Dawkins states in the first chapter of The God Delusion. This confirmation only confirms what Atheists suspect and have known for a long time. This point is over the head of Asana. Asana can't understand why we don't believe. Theists of this type are closed-minded and they 'JUST KNOW' that God exists. We'd NEVER move a Theist of this type into any reasonable area of debate or questioning. So I don't understand why Asana is here. I think Asana is a sheep of some religion that Professor Dawkins has upset, maybe for his views, or even maybe for the title of The God Delusion - some Theists would read that title and conclude it was all bilge, before even looking at it - and THAT'S the idea the Professor wants! HOW VERY CLEVER A TITLE! Only a rational, open-debated Theist would pick up The God Delusion - a die-hard would conclude it was wrong without ever reading it! GREAT WORK PROFFESOR D!

An interesting sidebar, here Martin, is that there are other Theists in here - and none of them have really come to Asana's defence in an attack of 'one-of-their-own'.

Delusional is being kind!

Kind Regards, William.

106. Dawkins v God - stop the fight

Comment #4022 by William on November 2, 2006 at 4:37 am

Oliver is ignorant a little.

>>Well, no. The cause of those acts of terrorism was a particular theocratic movement, Islamism. Dawkins does his best to draw analogies with other religions, giving warning of the political influence of American evangelicalism, and, at the fringes, an American Taleban intent on the repression of women and the suppression of liberty. But this is tosh.<<

Has Oliver ever visited http://www.godhatesfags.com I wonder?

This is religion at its WORST. Yes, I know it is a minority opinion amongst many decent Theists, yet they still exists, as do Al Qaeda.

Kind Regards, William.

107. Why there is no God

Comment #4016 by William on November 2, 2006 at 4:13 am

Hello Billy! Forget it mate. Asana is in here to deliberately wind us up. Don't worry - he aint going to heaven, because he IS NOT (I reckon Asana is male), abiding by the laws Jesus set in the Bible. He owns stuff. We all do. Luke 18:22 STATES IN CLEAR ENGLISH THAT YOU MUST SELL ALL YOU HAVE! As stated a little further up the page, Asana evades direct questions. I am not debating with Asana any longer. Asana doesn't debate. Asana doesn't offer rational, credible evidence. Asana Preaches. PREACH. PREACH. PREACH.

>>Comment #3999 by Anonymous on November 2, 2006 at 2:38 am

"Asana wants violent responses, so that they can be printed off and shown in church as to how irrational we Atheists are"

So you are an atheist then?
How irrational is believing in an invisible sky daddy when you have absolutely no proof<<

I don't understand this comment? I am an Atheist. Anonymous - whoever you are - read all my postings and you'll see I am Atheist. I stated that Asana wants violent responses - so he can go to his church and PROVE how vile us Atheists are.

Infact Asana demonstrates this with his earlier ridiculous comment regarding poor little Sarah Payne. He is obviously trying to make a point that Roy Whiting is an Atheist. I don't know if the murdering filth is Atheist - but even if he is - this proves NOTHING. I'm quite sure that the 9/11 idiots and the 7/7 lunatics DID BELIEVE in God. That doesn't make all believers killers nor does it make all unbelievers killers.

Furthermore, Asana is NOT capable of forming a concept. Nor is he capable of understanding pure logic. Nor can he make any reasonalable, rational points. Nor does he understand his Bible - the text he so treasures. Nor is anything he has said in here of any value. I firmly believe Professor Dawkins has upset this zealot - so, Asana has decided to come in here and preach. Nobody is really interested Asana. And your FAKE sincerity "May God have peace with you", is fooling nobody.

You WANT the apocalypse to come true. You WANT the end-of-the-world to come, just so you can say you were right, regardless of the fact that millions would have to die as a result.

God is mythology. Jesus is mythology. Religion has perverted many minds. You don't understand Atheists. As Atheists, we actually RESPECT life more than you Theists - we believe this is our ONLY life. Asana proved this when stating that Sarah Payne is now in the company of God. Asana has NO EVIDENCE of this and is perpetuating the heaven myth as fact. WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!

Infact, I'm betting Asana has not read ANY of Professor Dawkins books. If Asana had, Asana may have learned something. HAVE you read any of Professor Dawkins books Asana? No? Then why the hell are you here? Do you have a personal grudge? Did your God tell you to come in here and convert us?

You are just confirming everything us Atheists already know about your religious irrationality.

Kind Regards, William.

108. Why there is no God

Comment #3961 by William on November 1, 2006 at 7:00 pm

As all my Atheist brethren have stated above:

Asana is talking rubbish. RUBBISH. RUBBISH. RUBBISH. RUBBISH. RUBBISH. RUBBISH. RUBBISH.

QUACK. QUACK. QUACK.

CUCKOO. CUCKOO. CUCKOO.

Does this make more sense to you Asana? You obviously hear voices in your head? Do you have capacity for logical thought? You clearly PROVE evolution. We have Genius I.Q's such as Einstein at the high end and literal morons and retarded I.Q's at the other.

Can you form a concept? A concept is the art of non-contradictory thought of 2 or more ideas.

I have demonstrated to you, with your own fairy-tale called The Bible ( or in your case The Wibble), that it contradicts itself. The bible contradicts itself many times. THUS it cannot form concepts and is useless in reality.

Homocidal serial killers usually hear 'God' talking to them. I am starting to wonder about your sanity Asana. Or maybe you are the Reverend Ted Haggard in disguise? Maybe some disgruntled and p-d off member of some lunatic fringe of religion that the great Professor Dawkins has upset. When your brain evolves, please feel free to debate with us... instead of preaching. Preach. Preach. Preach. Repent. Repent. Repent. Blah. Blah. Blah. You know, I fear intelligent Theists... they may make me think of my lack of belief. You are just making me laugh! I am laughing so hard I am going to deliberately defecate in my pants!

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! Oops! Better change my pants!
Kind Regards, William.

109. Why there is no God

Comment #3960 by William on November 1, 2006 at 6:48 pm

Asana. You have just contradicted Jesus. Luke 18:22 is VERY clear about it.

>>Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.<<

Do you not understand English?
>>SELL ALL THAT THOU HAST<<

If you have not done this, then, forget it. I'd suggest you leave us Atheists alone and give away your car, (if you own one), your house (if you own one), and EVERY other possession, save maybe a few clothes for decency. And the other passages you refer to, show the inconsistent nonesense of the Bible - and that the Bible was written by Men, not God - thus it is flawed, contains errors and is useless as a tool for life.

Moses was a murderer. He MURDERED in the Old Testament. You believe in the words of a MURDERER do you? What makes MOSES any better than HITLER? Is one murder any less abhorrent than millions?

Either way, you are again, showing ignorance of the Bible and it's teachings. You are NOT going to heaven, anymore than I. I suggest you try saving your own soul, instead of carrying on with your pointless, biased views.

Your challenge is RIDICULOUS. Why? Because JESUS LIED. How can I prove this? Simple.

Luke 11: 9 - 13

>>And I tell you, ask and you will receive; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. <<

In the summer of 2000, a little girl, Sarah Payne was abducted and murdered by Roy Whiting. I PRAYED FOR 2 WEEKS TO YOUR GOD FOR HER SAFE RETURN. The police found her body, dumped away like trash.

I ASKED your God to do this. He didn't; so clearly Jesus was talking rubbish; God DOESN'T answer our prayers, so JESUS WAS A LIAR. You are talking rubbish; I have defeated you with your own illogical rubbish, from the rubbish that is the Bible.

DO NOT BOTHER US ATHEISTS AGAIN. YOU HAVE BEEN DEFEATED - Until you OWN nothing - as quoted in the book of Luke, you are NOT GOING TO HEAVEN.

>> Luke the Gospel is clear. SELL ALL YOU HAVE.<<

Kind Regards, William.

PS. You never close ANY statement on here with complimentary remarks. I always say Kind Regards; you never do this to anyone. You are as rude as you are ignorant and you don't wish any of us well.

110. Tired of all the religious garbage? It's time to become an Enlightenist

Comment #3957 by William on November 1, 2006 at 5:39 pm

Interesting points Paul. What about a DNA molecule? I've never seen anything more beautiful, in microscopic form - mind, I don't have access to a microscope that often!

Corin said:

>>You are presuming here that the parents do not want their children raised and educated in their superstitious belief systems. Nothing could be further from the truth. One need only look to various on-going debates in the United States over the inclusion of [un]'intelligent design' and similar garbage to realise that the majority of people do not aspire for better education and more learning for their offspring. They seek to perpetuate their religious and cultural beliefs and bigotries first and foremost. Unless they perceive that there is an advantage to an education system not saddled with religious bunk, they will not support it.<<

I'm afraid this is most true. My parents had stong faith - my Mother still insists on believing the tripe, but my Father has come around to an Agnostic/ Atheistic viewpoint. He came to the same conclusions independently of my views.

I found out on Saturday that my Grandmother (my Mother's Mother), used to say to my Mother some really horrid things. Such as "You fell over and got hurt because God is punishing you."

Now, I am not going to slander my own Grandmother. I respect and honour her. This was put into her as a child of a Victorian Dad. You know the types. Kids in bed by 6PM (Yes, my Nan had to be in bed by 6PM upto the age of 21), kids getting beat up - infact, my Nan was the oldest of 10 and SHE used to get the beating, if any of the other 9 played up - as she was the eldest.

Too often these days, we hear older folk longing for the 'good old days'. But in truth, I don't think we should be going back there, do you?

I truly believe that the remaining Theists on this planet YEARN for the days of a powerful, over-bearing, all-knowing church. I truly believe many of them wish we were back in caves. They think scientific people need a 'lesson in manners', when in truth, many of their creed are the ones who need lessons in manners... or at least humility.

Kind Regards, William.

111. Nearly half of Americans uncertain God exists: poll

Comment #3956 by William on November 1, 2006 at 5:31 pm

Phlogiston said (FANTASTIC choice in names, by the way! - had to look it up! Brilliant!)

>>I truly wish this survey was true, but how accurate is an internet survey? Other surveys of the US paint a very different picture (e.g. my memory is rusty, but there was one that said 80% of Americans think angels exist, and 50% do not think evolution is true). <<

I wonder too. I've been to the States for holidays' since 2004, and religion is VERY apparent over there. I think, given time and evidence, many religions could die out. Indeed, Atheism, which is NOT a religion (Theists!), would die out overnight if just ONE piece of evidence could be highlighted.

My favourite religious sight was the church on the 192 US Highway, close to Kissimmee.

It said "We say I do... for $50!"

HA HA HA HA! There is a lot of why religion survives in that statement!

Kind Regards, William.

112. Why there is no God

Comment #3955 by William on November 1, 2006 at 5:21 pm

Hi Phlogistion!

I've read all the posts above. And what is happening is EXACTLY what Asana wants. He wants to upset Atheists on this website with Theistic nonesense. Asana wants violent responses, so that they can be printed off and shown in church as to how irrational we Atheists are... But I am onto Asana. Asana, you deliberately ignore direct questioning and you use evasion tactics to get around problems... you are the ultimate ignorant believer in God, so indoctrinated, like others, who on 9/11 and 7/7 thought it would be a good idea to kill innocent people for your God. You are the very reason sites like this exist.

A straight forward question for Asana: Answer this in straight forward English. Let's pretend your God exists and we Atheists ARE going to hell. Do you think you are going to heaven? Do you follow Jesus? Then turn to your Bible and let all us Atheists know what this passage means - and whether or not you are in compliance with it: In Luke 18:22, a wise man asked Jesus how he could get into heaven - after saying he followed the 10 commandments, Jesus replied to the man:

Luke 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

Have you done this Asana? If not, why not? How do you expect to go to heaven if you are NOT doing as Jesus commanded? Be VERY clear in your reply Asana. Jesus expects you to have NO possessions - and you clearly have access to at least a computer. BE VERY CLEAR IN YOUR REPLY ASANA...

Kind Regards, William.

113. Wide-eyed and Godless

Comment #3878 by William on November 1, 2006 at 9:17 am

Right with you there Steve! We should make our own commandments - indeed, I've seen videos on http://www.youtube.com that have great Atheist videos on there - including a 10 commandments for Atheists!

Stephanie said:

>>My point is, if we follow Richard Dawkins' tactics of fighting for scientific thought, and swaying people who are on the fence, are we not employing the same tactics as the evangelists?<<

I understand ENTIRELY where you are coming from. We don't want to be seen as die-hards. It is true, however, that much money is put forward for religious causes, churches, events, whilst Atheists have to be content with 2nd class citizenship. And in truth, our stance has much more credence than any religious dogma. Congratulations on becoming Atheist by 18 - but you must understand that you had a wise Professor of Physics to guide you. It took me to the age of 30 to dispense with the rubbish. I was bought up in a Christian family. I started questioning it at 20. I still believed in Jesus, but not God, as such by 30. Then I rejected it all, based upon what is reasonable, verifiable or falsifiable. Religion is lacking, no matter what any Theist says.

And this is where Professor Dawkins is coming from, in my opinion, with his works. So much scientific progress has been found, studied, tested, questioned. Yet, it is hardly circled amongst schools. The same old irrational GARBAGE about the flood, Noah, Moses, Jesus and many other faiths has been taught to my kids - against my consent - and without me really knowing that this TRASH is still on the school curriculum - and quite frankly it makes me ANGRY.

I've started showing my nippers a taste of science and I am delighted that they find it so appealing. I find it disgusting, here in England, that a man such as Charles Darwin is being disimissed by idiots like Tony Blair and his stupid faith school nonesense - in effect perpetuating the myths for another generation.

This IS a fight. I am not scared of ducking out of it. I don't CARE if Theists are offended by my beliefs. They are obviously not considerate of my views. Study The Good, The Bad, The Ugly section on this site, for some of the mental decrepids that email Professor Dawkins - a man who is just in search of the truth.

Kind Regards, William.

114. The Dawkins Delusion

Comment #3876 by William on November 1, 2006 at 8:58 am

Hello David! Thanks for the interesting link.

AMEN to brother Billy Sands too! How did you get on at the gym dude? I've got my own Barbell set now - and thanks to the wonders of evolution and adaptation, my muscles get bigger regularly - without the aid of the supernatural HEE HEE!

Billy said:

>>Phil, although both are wrong, the difference here is no one here believes they are killing to please their god - get it? How many do you think religion has killed? In the bible alone, your god either killed or ordered the killing or around 2 000 000 people. You say evolution has brought no good into the world, well why should it, it is cold and impersonal? what a stupid arguement! Do you think all those abortions are down to evolution? Get real! What about the HIV disaster the church is forecing on africans? What about the LRA in Uganda, what about god justified bombing of the middle east, What about the crusades and the legacy left by them, what about te european catholic/protestant wars? etc. Are you really saying religion is better than athesim? As an atheist, I now consider all life even more valuable than before. Religious nutters believe they can kill, mame and torture and they will go to heaven and their victims will burn in hell. I think you need religion as a psychological crutch to prevent the stark reality of a materialistic universe from making your frail pshycology implode. Anyway, I dont see we are getting any where here. I am satified that we are right, and you are letting something supernatural rukle your life without any evidence. I personally will not live that way again<<

I would add to that Billy, that Phil still hasn't address the Book of Luke and whether or not he is going to dispense with ALL his worldly goods.

Are you Phil? Are you going to answer my question, regarding the book of Luke 18:22.

You spout the Bible in here as an Authority Phil. You obviously place credence upon it. So tell me how you, as a believer, are going to heaven until you sell EVERYTHING you possess?

Kind Regards, William.

115. Tired of all the religious garbage? It's time to become an Enlightenist

Comment #3874 by William on November 1, 2006 at 8:48 am

I've read all the above points and everyone here has made valid arguments.

Serge said:

>>One serious point though: Muriel is preaching to the 'converted' (or de-converted if you like). I have serious doubts whether religiously superstitious people would ever be convinced of the irrationality of their beliefs by rational arguments. Let's start with giving our children a factual education and arm them with intellectual inquisitiveness.<<

I couldn't agree more. I'd wager, that most rational, logical, unhindered thinking children would reject many religions if they were shown the other side of the coin. My oldest is 13 and yet has hardly been shown anything of natural Darwinian selection.

Haymoon said:

>>How about going the whole hog and call ourselves "thinkers". The "other side" don't seem to do much of it - thinking, I mean. <<

This is so very true. I wouldn't mind so much, but they are NASTY with their irrational beliefs. This extends to what Paul Stern correctly said:

>>To those of us who reject any and all religious fantasies, choosing the term atheist or any other makes no difference. The inescapable fact is that all religous belief starts with fear of death. The very brave can laugh in its face, but for most it is the ultimate fright. So, we seek comfort in tales of an afterlife with lots of rewards/punishments which satisfies both our fears and desires. Since we can tailor our deities any way we like, opposing religious beliefs is a near hopeless challenge.<<

I'd agree entirely. We ARE fearful of death - every species, of any sentient capacity is. These religions offer hope to those who can't envisage that they will be deceased for an eternity.

As Professor Dawkins states though, because something may be true, does not mean we should ignore it. Theists come in here and think they have a debate - but have they? Have they REALLY thought things through? There are billions of complexities that have no real meaning and only questions, as to why.

What is the point of a disease like Progeria? What kind of a God, could find that awful disease as a benefit to mankind? Yet, reject the God equation, and Progeria can be seen as an unwanted (for mankind) disease that is fighting for its own existence - as much as every other living thing.

Every Theist in here is just pushing me further into Atheism. And all the rational, usually intelligent, free-thinking Atheists above, confirm that Atheism with their approach to REALITY. The one true REALITY that we experience as a species.

Kind Regards, William.

116. Why there is no God

Comment #3872 by William on November 1, 2006 at 8:34 am

Hello Brian.

I did look it up!!! UNREAL!

Could this be Relgion by natural seclection?!

Kind Regards, William.

117. Dawkins thinks atheism will save us

Comment #3807 by William on October 31, 2006 at 7:22 pm

Hello again, Michael!

Thanks for the reply.

>>I* also take great joy in mowing my yard and raking leaves on SUNDAY.<<

HA HA HA HA! You'll need asbestos underpants, when you visit hell! HA HA HA! Brilliant!

You know, seriously though, think about the USA and Sunday. Your country is more alive than mine is, on Sunday - and we are busier than we used to be (and better), because of it. Think of all those workers betraying one of the 10 commandments and WORKING. But in a modern society, there is a demand for working on Sunday - another nail in the coffin for the irrelevance of the Bible. It may have been quite correct to rest on Sunday 2000 years ago, but it sure as hell ain't now!

I may well take up your challenge. Another kind Atheist in here has already suggested the same tactic - and even better - he has suggested luring them inside my living room and then preventing them from getting to the exit whilst I launch into them with evolution!

From what I understand of Mormons, they do have some odd beliefs - almost as odd as our Jehovahs witnesses over here. I can't subscribe to the idea by JW's that blood shouldn't be exchanged. My old man had a heart attack in April. He has had a triple by-pass since and they used many pints of blood to keep him alive during the operation.

As for the Bible-Thumpers, I've argued with them 6 to 7 times this year. They are unbelievable. They KNOW I don't want them here, but they really believe my soul needs saving. It really doesn't. I'll take my chances. Because if God exists (and I don't for one second believe he does - I am a true Atheist and not Agnostic), then I'm sure he wouldn't condemn me for the life I've led. If Christians can get away with working Sunday, surely he can forgive my rationality at not believing!

This Theist v Atheist argument is intriguing though? I do wonder as to how somebody can TRULY believe, with the mounting evidence against the very notion. The vicar who married me and my wife years ago REALLY believed. I respect him for that view. But he didn't shove it down my throat. I'm sure some believe just to be in the 'in-crowd'. And I'm sure some are just believing 'just in case'. It's not good enough for me anymore.

Kind Regards, William.

118. Why there is no God

Comment #3806 by William on October 31, 2006 at 7:10 pm

Asana said:

>>GENETIC MATHEMATICS human 100 %
chimpanzee 86.7 %
nematode 75 % <<

And THIS rubbish is your 'evidence' for God's existence?! Are you SERIOUS?! Do you have the SLIGHTEST CLUE as to why those (incorrect) formulae are evidence of NOTHING?

The point is, the Chimpanzee is a CLOSE relative to the Human species. The difference in genomes is because WE ARE DIFFERENT SPECIES, WITH A SHARED HISTORY FROM EVOLUTION! We are not FROM Monkeys - we evolved ALONGSIDE THEM from a common ancestor. An ancestor that may well have lived in the Dinosaur era, amongst common theories of discovery. Do you have ANY idea as to how many varied species of Monkey/ Ape/ Chimpanzee/ Human and/ or proto-Humans have been discovered, thus far? There are hundreds of differing species! Go and search wikipedia for the many varieties of species of Hominids.

Oh my grief! You really have a lack of understanding as to what drives evolutionary process. When I asked for evidence, I expected something better than that lunacy.

I suggest you go and find some proper evolutionary theory before posting on here again. I've never heard such a ridiculous speculative argument.

Give us Atheists (and you have increased my atheism thus far), some credible evidence. A photograph of God. A voice recording of God - telling us why we are wrong. A date from God of the return of Jesus Christ. A piece of evidence from the universe that has a real supernatural explanation - instead of the natural, observable phenomena we detect.

Do you actually understand what an Atheist means by evidence? Why are you in here? Have you read any of Professor Dawkins books? I'm in the middle of 3 of them at present. EVERY book he has written makes more sense than any Bible rubbish I've ever read - or that pathetic attempt by yourself to convince us Atheists we are faulty in our thinking.

Kind Regards, William.

119. Dawkins thinks atheism will save us

Comment #3797 by William on October 31, 2006 at 5:21 pm

Hi Jenna!

Yes, I found it to be a shock, too. I WRONGLY assumed that MaryH is a Theist.

I agree so much regarding Stem Cell research. Again, the religious right are showing their ignorance. Imagine how many problems could be solved by studying them?

Scientists in Britain today, announced that they'd grown a small liver, the size of a penny. They reckon that within 5 years, it may be used to test drugs and save on animal testing. Is that fantastic or what?

Meanwhile, the S-T-U-P-I-D goat-herding Jehovah's witnessess, knocked my door on Friday. So. Men and women of science are searching for answers, to our problems, whilst Theists are spouting doom and gloom at my doorstep from an ancient text of very dubious messages.

They P*ss me off more than you could imagine! I'm afraid I was rather forceful with them this time and pushed them out of my tiny garden.

"Lovely Buzy Lizzies" Said one of them."

"Yeah, but they've now to do with God". I said, rather rudely.

This took them back a bit. The oldest goat, started to evolve into a stubborn donkey in front of me (evolution in front of my eyes!). She refused to move and said:

"I didn't say it was the work of God, did I?" in a rather nasty tone.

I told her some Bible passages to go and check, some of the viler ones, and left them to ponder - they are obviously in need of arguments with Atheists. They know I am an Atheist and are trying REAL hard to turn me from my unGodly ways.

They sicken me with their ignorance of science and nature. I saw a pipefish on Blue Planet tonight - the male carries the young on his body. God's design eh? Couldn't quite work out if all young should be carried by male or female - so the Pipefish was DESIGNED to carry young by the male.

Utter drivel or what? Are you as fed up with Theists as I am?

Kind Regards, William.

120. The Dawkins Delusion

Comment #3795 by William on October 31, 2006 at 5:02 pm

Hello Billy.

You and me are on the same page! I too, lost ALL FAITH, when I read the diabolical vomit that the Bible is.

Some of those great sites, I too visit. I grew up with religious parents. I was taught all the better parts and I've heard all the other convenient lies that Theists yap on about on these forums.

An example, one my parents used to lie to me about, was that the New Testament invalidated the Old Testament. True, there are passages in the New Testament that say the old laws didn't apply any longer. But Jesus, in other passages, stated that the old laws still stood.

Of course, this leaves Theists with a serious problem! First, the contradiction of the new and old laws, second, the old laws are EVIL. There is no other way you could intepret the old testament, unless you were deranged in some manner. The old testament is FILTH. A great read! But filth!

No. No decent kind, loving God could have allowed such laws to exist. These laws, both the new testament and the old testament are clearly written by men, for men.

Imagine if nuclear weaponry had been available to people at the time of Jesus? Damn! We wouldn't be here any more dude!

Maybe they'd worship the great bomb, like in the planet of the Apes! That's another thing my superstitious parents used to say to me - The Planet of the Apes was blasphemous!

HA HA HA HA HA! Have you ever heard such a thing! I'm glad my Dad is Atheist now! I love my parents of course - and I don't hold against them what they thought was the right thing to teach me. I just wish they'd really questioned it deeper.

Kind Regards, William.

121. Tired of all the religious garbage? It's time to become an Enlightenist

Comment #3793 by William on October 31, 2006 at 4:50 pm

Hi Steve! Hello Jack! Great points!

What a great article! I like Muriel! Muriel said:

>>there is nothing more political than how we educate the next generation of British citizens.<<

This is right on the button. I recently found out that both my kids have been taught all the religious drivel (of many differing faiths), but NOTHING of Darwinian Natural Selection! That changed though, once I found out. And they love my teachings!

What annoys me more than President Bush is Blair. Blair is pushing for these faith schools. He is an idiot. They'd love us all to be at war with other faiths - all in the name of Christianity. Maybe they yearn for the days of the Crusades, eh?

Can you imagine the scene at Camp David? President Bush and Blair are chatting about their beliefs after a fantastic steak meal. They pray together and thank God for the delicious treat.

After revealing that, they are both strong Christians, they decide that something needs to be done about these 'damned' Muslim Terrorists in Iraq. They decide that they are going to remove them and get the black Gold, as a bonus - and they are going to need a good reason for doing so. The President hears God and knows he will be okay with the American people. Blair knows we won't fall for that and decides we need to be an unsafe country.

Tell me: Now that we have murdered hundreds of thousands of Muslims, do YOU feel any safer? I don't. Do you feel happy to have such a great Christian leader at the helm? Do you have any respect for a man who can contravene his most fundamental core beliefs of his faith?

Why doesn't Blair actually practice his faith? Surely, one of the highest commands of religion is 'Thou Shalt Not Kill'.

Yes, there is a time for war, but was Iraq REALLY that time? If I am wrong to be Atheist and God is really there, do you think he will be happy with Good ol' Tony come judgement day? I heard him say that he believed he really did a good deed.

Us Atheists, I'll bet, would NEVER have invaded a country on such a preposterous set of lies - and this highlights to us 'freethinkers' (I like that term, Nebularry) what is wrong with people that vomit religion as a good thing, yet commit evil acts within that religion.

There intolerance of each other, there clinging of their comfort-blankets, result in the suffering of children, globally. They DISGUST me with their ignorance. Ignorance of what is wrong with themselves, instead of coming on this forum and telling us why WE are wrong.

I think The God Delusion sums it all up pretty nicely. I wish Professor Dawkins all the best in what he does. A voice of reason is DESPERATELY needed in these volatile times. We are in danger, as a species of causing our own extinction through our own stupidity.

Kind Regards, William.

PS. I have NOTHING but respect for our armed forces. I support them ALWAYS. I'll be wearing my Poppy, even if Camilla can't be bothered. My problem is not with the soldiers - but the idiotic governments that send our brave young men, half way around the world to die, when their deaths may not have been necessary. I wish all soldiers, both American and British, a speedy safe return soon.

122. Why there is no God

Comment #3736 by William on October 31, 2006 at 10:51 am

Hi David!

How amusing! I'm glad nobody got hurt though. I'd not advocate the deaths of Theists, because they believe - something that is contrary to some Theist doctrines. The Old Testament made it quite clear that believers or followers of other faiths DESERVE to die.

I didn't realise you were an American! To be American and questioning faith holds you in more esteem to me - I KNOW that right now, being Atheist is FAR WORSE than being Gay, over in the States.

Infact, I love American movies. You guys make some great stuff. I have noticed though, of late, that a lot of films made in this decade have a LOT of faith-beliefs instilled into them. Religion is not going to die without a fight, nor would we expect any less.

I saw 3 films this week.
I Robot - in that film, Jesus was mentioned as was Miracles. Neither Jesus nor miracles have any evidence in reality.
I saw the remake of The Longest Yard - and there were images of Bibles after Caretaker was killed - including images of the Cross. Powerful stuff. It does move you to tears, even if you have no faith, such as I don't.
I saw the remake of the Flight of The Phoenix - and at the start they asked the crew "If you believe in God, now is the time to ask a favour".
Of course, that film has a happy ending - so God saved the day, afterall!

Still. I repeat that NO RELIGION can prove any of their lavish claims. Yet we're expected to believe just because? I can't live like that. I firmly believe that science points to a different history of events than those of the Bible or the Qur'an.

Kind Regards, William.

123. Why there is no God

Comment #3731 by William on October 31, 2006 at 10:00 am

Quite correct David. Could Anonymous be Asana, hiding from us? Or maybe it was a quick reply by Jamie, who just omitted accidentally the same name?

What Theists don't realise half the time, is that many of us Atheists DID once believe. Reading the Bible made us non-believers! It is ridiculous. Couldn't God have made it a LITTLE easier for us? Then, bring in scientific discovery, logic and straight-forward rational thinking and we can start to see the problems that all regligions have. They are all fantasy. To be honest, I am offended by blind faith. Every Theist who comes in here spouting off the name of the Lord, CONVENIENTLY forgets that the same said Lord CANNOT BE BOTHERED to stop the dying or the poverty of the 3rd world. Yet Theists' espouse A LOVING GOD who DEMANDS worship. I'd NEVER worship such a being - and the ultimate question WHO MADE GOD cannot be addressed by any one of them. At the same time, overfed, rich superstars at sporting matches shout "Thanks to God" for the latest victory. You never hear them shout "Hell! Jesus made me lose this game!"

I am really hoping Asana has the GUTS to reply to my earlier posting. I am hoping that Asana will start quoting the Bible at us.

I will quite gladly rip it apart. The Bible is FAIRY TALE. It has no more validity than the Mr.Men, Spot The Dog or the Ladybird book of Witchcraft. Infact, the Mr.Men have more credence, because we can watch them on the TV.

The Bible is a FAIRY TALE for ignorant farm herders, from the 1st Century, trying to put together a world view. It explains NOTHING and teaches NOTHING of virtue.

I am REALLY hoping Asana will try and debate this with us - in English and not riddles. Or maybe Asana is praying now? What a waste of time.

Kind Regards, William.

124. The Dawkins Delusion

Comment #3723 by William on October 31, 2006 at 9:13 am

Hi Eric. Great point!

Jack Said:

>>Firstly, 'Dinosaur' is a modern word. Further its english, so one won't find it. The question one has to ask is how would the writers of the Bible informs us of dinosaurs if they did see them.
Heres an experiment for you. Turn to Job 40:15-24. Put your scepticism on hold for awhile and read it. Read it with a picture of one of those large saurapods in your mind that you see in the Spielberg movies. You tell me that the description in this text is not the perfect description of such. A tail like a cedar tree? Note also the context of chapter 39deer, donkey, horses. Clearly the Behemoth is not meant to be a mythical creature. See also chapter 41. Supercroc??? Just think about it, don't dismiss it.<<

Okay. I'll read that bit from the fairy tale book. I like a good read of fiction.

You are STILL to answer my earlier posting: How do you explain LUKE 18:22? Have you sold all your worldly goods, or are you likely too?

Do you think you can get into heaven if you don't?

Have you read the Bible fully and do you know of the vile bilge it espouses too in parts?

Answer my question. THEN I'll consider what you've said about Job. If you're belief stems from the Bible, you are in trouble. Because it has MUCH wrong with it. VERY, VERY sinister in parts. Of course, God is all loving eh?

Address Luke 18:22 and I will adress Job.

Kind Regards, William.

125. Why there is no God

Comment #3722 by William on October 31, 2006 at 9:04 am

Hello David!

I am awaiting Asana's response to my earlier question. As usual Asana is playing the Theist game of avoidment of a direct question.

I WANT TO KNOW HOW ASANA KNOWS THAT GOD EXISTS? WHAT EVIDENCE DOES ASANA PRESENT TO US HERE? I WILL DISPENSE WITH ATHEISM ONCE ASANA PROVIDES THE EVIDENCE AND NOT RIDDLES.

Kind Regards, William.

126. Why there is no God

Comment #3717 by William on October 31, 2006 at 8:46 am

Asana said:

>>Because the term God means The Possessor of The Highest Rank and since only one can possess the Highest Rank there can then be only one "God<<

You are talking nonesense. Are you deliberately avoiding my question? Do you understand English?

EXPLAIN TO ME HOW YOU KNOW GOD CAN THE ONLY ONE TRUE GOD AND HOW GOD EXISTS?

Explain this to me in English - not riddles. Where is your proof, your evidence for God? The Bible? Please explain this to me and I will dispense with my Atheism.

Kind Regards, William.

127. Why there is no God

Comment #3712 by William on October 31, 2006 at 8:29 am

Asana said:

>>There is one God with many names.<<

HOW do you know this? An extraordinary claim, requires extraordinary proof - to coin a well-versed statement.

WHERE IS YOUR PROOF, PLEASE? Please tell us how you know this. I'd be delighted to learn how you know this. I will dispense with my Atheism, if you can tell me how you know this.

Kind Regards, William.

128. The Dawkins Delusion

Comment #3709 by William on October 31, 2006 at 8:26 am

Comment #3696 by Jack Sparrow

Hello Jack. Thanks for being so civil. Most Theists espouse doom and gloom.

>>Other questions could be raised: why is the earth the right distance from the sun, from the moon, tilted at the right angle, spinning at the right speed, with the right thickness of atmosphere etc etc? <<

Exactly. This explains EVOLUTION. The Earth moves around the sun. BUT NOT IN PERFECT ELLIPTICAL ORBIT. A few million miles either way and life may very well struggle or not exist. Consider Venus. The density of the planet would crush all life forms. It is a hot, dense, uninhabitable planet (on present estimation). Mars, though, being some 66 million miles further out than Earth is a cooler world. It has a surface temperature of 0 Degrees Celsius in summer and drops to -100 Degrees below in the winter. The day is similar to an Earth day, being 20 minutes longer on average.

So here are 2 worlds - the closest to Earth, both with similarities, but both, unlikely to contain life - until we have explored them fully, that is. WHAT IF ONE MICRO-ORGANISM IS FOUND ON EITHER PLANET? Where does that leave the world view of religion?

The point with the dinosaurs is that, the Bible doesn't mention them. How could so many great creatures have lived and NOT be mentioned in a book from God?

You believe the Bible is some kind of authority then, because you quote from it? Do you think you can go to heaven? you are obviously a good man.

Have you sold all your possessions? If not, you ain't going nowhere.

Luke. New Testament.

18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

Have you Jack, sold all your worldly goods, yet? your house, your TV, your Car, every worldly possession? Have you ever worked on a Sunday? Have you ever sworn in the name of God? If you have not sold all your worldly goods yet - then forget it mate. You are as unworthy as us Atheists!

You'd better buy some asbestos underpants! Sorry to sound crass, but if you are going to use your Bible as ANY kind of authority in here, be prepared to defend the not-so-pleasant side. And don't say "It is open to intepretation" or "shouldn't be taken literally". Jesus is QUITE clear in the book of Luke as to how you can get into heaven.

You're a nice bloke Jack. You obviously have some brain power up there. I was a Christian 16 years ago - then I woke up and realised the absurdity of it all. Would you join us? Would it REALLY effect you so much if God didn't exist? For me, life is even MORE cherished, since dispensing with the book of fairy tales - ie, the Bible.

I read upon science. I look at Astronomy websites. I am in AWE of NATURE and how it works. It is fantastic! Come join us Atheists Jack... you won't be a lesser person for it.

Kind Regards, William.

129. Dawkins thinks atheism will save us

Comment #3703 by William on October 31, 2006 at 8:04 am

Hello again Michael.

I agree, again, with your sentiments. You made some very valid points.

>>And now I find myself wishing I lived in Europe. Its seems that America is destined to be forever lost to the religious right against the wished of John Adams and Thomas Jefferson. The religiuos right over here hate Jefferson. Deep down they know that he was an atheist. But trust me ... that knowledge is kept hush hush and hidden deep away from textbooks and American culture. Churches over here do a good job and sterilizing textbooks and controlling information.<<

Yes. From the little that I know of Jefferson, he certainly seemed to be a voice of reason; some of his quotes are definitely of an Atheist - or at least - a rational view.

Again, don't be so hard on America. For 25 years I've been a Washington Redskin fan (hope you ain't a Dallas fan - or you'll hate my guts) and dreamed of living in the States. I've visited twice and will visit again in your fall of 2007. I think people in America and Britain, BOTH EQUALLY seem to think that the 'grass is greener' on the other side of the Atlantic. In truth, both countries have their fantastic side, but both have their troubles. For instance, America last year had 18,000 violent murders at the hands of gangs. Here, our murder total is 1,000 a year on average, since 2002 - our worst ever.

But American customer service is ACE! Over here, customer service is "If I can be bothered.." whereas in the States, Customer Service is "Can do!"

And there is hope for America. You are quite welcome to live here in the U.K. (You'd have to put up with inclement weather though!). At the last census I read, of 2000, there were 36 million Americans who didn't believe in a God - more than the population of Jews in your country. So there are 'freethinkers' amongst you. I'd bet my bottom dollar that, with the likes of Professor Dawkins spreading his message, that more would be willing to come out of the closet. I KNOW how hard it is for you guys over there; jobs can be lost, promotions not given; spouses can reject you; colleagues snub you etc., But that doesn't mean it will always be the case. So long as people are open to REASON, there is hope.

We have fundamentalists here. That was evident on 7/7. 4 British born Muslims, accused 'us' of hurting 'their' (Middle Eastern) brothers. This is truly frightening. That people are living amongst us that are TRUE British citizens, but can believe that they are not - and worse, that their cause is worth dying for.

I wouldn't even know how we begin to tackle such a problem. So you guys in the States, who are open-minded should speak about how you feel. Yes, I know it's worse than being Gay at present, but change usually needs sacrifice us extreme pressure to succeed. Consider the fight for womens rights here in the early 20th Century.

Just a note: Have you visited the American Atheists? Hello again Michael.

I agree, again, with your sentiments. You made some very valid points.

>>And now I find myself wishing I lived in Europe. Its seems that America is destined to be forever lost to the religious right against the wished of John Adams and Thomas Jefferson. The religiuos right over here hate Jefferson. Deep down they know that he was an atheist. But trust me ... that knowledge is kept hush hush and hidden deep away from textbooks and American culture. Churches over here do a good job and sterilizing textbooks and controlling information.<<

Yes. From the little that I know of Jefferson, he certainly seemed to be a voice of reason; some of his quotes are definitely of an Atheist - or at least - a rational view.

Again, don't be so hard on America. For 25 years I've been a Washington Redskin fan (hope you ain't a Dallas fan - or you'll hate my guts) and dreamed of living in the States. I've visited twice and will visit again in your fall of 2007. I think people in America and Britain, BOTH EQUALLY seem to think that the 'grass is greener' on the other side of the Atlantic. In truth, both countries have their fantastic side, but both have their troubles. For instance, America last year had 18,000 violent murders at the hands of gangs. Here, our murder total is 1,000 a year on average, since 2002 - our worst ever.

But American customer service is ACE! Over here, customer service is "If I can be bothered.." whereas in the States, Customer Service is "Can do!"

And there is hope for America. You are quite welcome to live here in the U.K. (You'd have to put up with inclement weather though!). At the last census I read, of 2000, there were 36 million Americans who didn't believe in a God - more than the population of Jews in your country. So there are 'freethinkers' amongst you. I'd bet my bottom dollar that, with the likes of Professor Dawkins spreading his message, that more would be willing to come out of the closet. I KNOW how hard it is for you guys over there; jobs can be lost, promotions not given; spouses can reject you; colleagues snub you etc., But that doesn't mean it will always be the case. So long as people are open to REASON, there is hope.

We have fundamentalists here. That was evident on 7/7. 4 British born Muslims, accused 'us' of hurting 'our' (Middle Eastern) people. This is truly frightening. That people are living amongst us that are TRUE British citizens, but can believe that they are not - and worse, that their cause is worth dying for.

I wouldn't even know how we begin to tackle such a problem. So you guys in the States, who are open-minded should speak about how you feel. Yes, I know it's worse than being Gay at present, but change usually needs sacrifice to succeed. Consider the fight for womens rights here in the early 20th Century.

Just a note: Have you visited the American Atheists? http://www.atheists.org/

A fantastic website.

Kind Regards, Will.

130. The Dawkins Delusion

Comment #3673 by William on October 31, 2006 at 5:23 am

Correct Martin.

Hello Jack! Thanks for visiting the forum of reason.

>>"even if the evidence di9d not favor it it would still be the best theory available"p 317. In other words it is unfalsifiable and non-science. If the evidence favours it, it is true. If the evidence doesn't favour it it is still true.<<

Okay then. Let's PRETEND that every scientist in the world is incorrect regarding evolutionary fact. (I've already got one Theist on here to admit to micro-evolution).

What is the alternative then? A designer? You attack evolutionary theory, stating such ludicrous nonesense as it being 'non-science' (Based on your warped view of Professor Dawkins' statement?), so what is science then? The Bible? Don't make me laugh! A PERFECT CREATOR? A PERFECT CREATOR COULD ONLY CONCEIVE OF PERFECTION. Clearly we are not perfect, neither are the natural processes of the universe.

Explain please any of the following and how/ why a designer would make such mistakes:

Human Spleen. Human Appendix.
Downs Syndrome. Cerebral Palsy. Thalidomide.
Progeria. (Amongst some of the MANY problems a Human being can be inflicted with).
Insects capable of giving birth without sex.
Some species young being carried by the male, not the female.
Eggs in some species laid OUTSIDE the body - then growing to full term, Eggs in some species growing INSIDE the body - then growing to full term.
Homosexuality in animals.
1 planet amongst 9 or 10 (Charon is in debate), with only 1 planet harbouring life.
Gazillions of other Stars. (For what purpose? To look at?)
Disease. Disease serves what purpose? Do you know that 38.6 million people currently have the HIV Virus? Do you know that 3.3 million children died of AIDS last year? The designer's point being?
The Dinosuars lived for what reason?
Ice ages serve what purpose?
Solar flares cause devastation for what reason?
We've found evidence of many different Hominid fossils for what reason? To confuse us?

This is just the tip of the iceberg for reasons of NOT believing in the divine! If you can answer these questions with a designer, I'd be most humbled.

Kind Regards, William.

131. The Dawkins Delusion

Comment #3662 by William on October 31, 2006 at 4:03 am

Hi Billy Sands! (Big hello to Tim BTW - great points made there!)

Thanks for the information about the Fruit Fly! Nature is amazing in diversity, is it not?

The point I made above is simply to highlight, what you Billy, myself, Professor Dawkins and all other Agnostics/ Atheists have already concluded:

It's QUITE okay to believe in a supernatural being as the cause of causality, if one must. NOTHING in our understanding totally refutes this notion.

The problem, one that gets my goat up - and likely other Atheists - is when some B-U-F-F-O-O-N knocks on the door; shouts on the corner of the High St; or quotes on this website - the Bible as some kind of Authority - and worse yet, spouts off about Jesus, when in all likelihood, the same Jesuit probably doesn't even know the 10 commandments in etirety, never mind all the vile bilge in the Bible.

Usually, Christians get around this (the individuals who have bothered to read the Bible), by stating nonesense such as "Well, the Bible isn't meant to be taken literally!".

EXCUSE ME! We can't 'cherry-pick' the better parts of the Bible - as evidence of Jesus and God - and ignore the darker side! That is moving the goalposts.

In the Bible, It quite clearly states, that all the Christians on this website can't make it into heaven. Well, they COULD, but they'd have to follow the book of Luke. 18: 18 - 22

18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
18:21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

SELL ALL THOU HAST.

So Phil, if you're still reading, mate - you'd better sell your house, your possessions, your car, indeed, everything you have. YOU CAN'T GET INTO HEAVEN UNLESS YOU DO. JESUS HAS COMMANDED YOU!

It's not all bad though, Phil - I'll gladly have your stuff if you like, 'cos I don't believe and I am going to hell! If you are reading still, Phil mate, I'd like this parable explained - and how you think you are getting to heaven if you ignore it?

Kind Regards, William.

132. Dawkins thinks atheism will save us

Comment #3615 by William on October 30, 2006 at 5:31 pm

Hi Jenna and Keith!

I like what you have both written above - BUT, I hope you are not falling into the same trap that I did?!

MaryH is NOT a Theist. She is an Atheist - something she corrected me on.

I don't always fully understand where she is coming from, either. She either has a problem with Professor Dawkins, or more likely, wants to promote the Atheist agenda in a positive light and not a negative one.

If you both know this, then I apologise.

Kind Regards, William.

133. The Dawkins Delusion

Comment #3613 by William on October 30, 2006 at 5:26 pm

Phil said:

>>Its still bacteria lol and is an example of micro evolution not macro but nice try. I will keep reading tomorrow but you need to provide evidence of the subject that differs from its parent as a kind<<

So, you DO agree then that evolution is in progress? Good, we're getting you there! Keep it up and soon you can get rid of your mystical view and see the world in a new light!

Surely you must concede that Macro evolution is a much different kettle of fish? You still need to provide evidence of your lavish claims of God, Jesus or any miracles! LOL! At least you are taking this in good humour. But seriously, we would love to hear your evidence of God. Just one photograph - one voice recording - one picture of his abode, or living area - ANYTHING, would shut up all Atheists worldwide. Get someone from the other side to tell me what colour my coat is on my chair, right now. ANYTHING. The evidence for evolution is all around us. Transitional fossils, for instance, show us a different Earth, millions of years ago, than the one we now inhabit.

Jack said:

>>The creationist position seems to be that although organisms do change they do not demonstrably change upwards in the sense of gaining new information that would lead to new characteristics. Information can be lost or regained but no mutations have been observed that produce new information or increase it where it didn't already exist <<

Hello Jack! Welcome to the forum of reason! You raised an interesting question in your above post. I am not qualified to answer it, but have you considered that much DNA is redundant? That a lot of DNA is useless? Genes grab onto bits and pieces and don't necessarily transfer all their material over to the next generation. If you REALLY think hard, no two people on Earth are IDENTICAL - we have the BASIC similarity between people, i.e, 2 eyes, 2 arms, legs, digestive system etc., but basically, only the fundamentals are the same (and even then, deformities can occur - such as cerebral palsy, Downs Syndrome, Thalidomide) amongst Humans. This INDICATES that each one of us has slightly differing Genetic structure. Transfer this idea to nature - and you realise that no two animals or plants within a species are identical either. They then transfer slightly differing genes to the next generation. Over time, you will get a different future animal/ plant from its ancestor. This makes perfect sense to me. Hope it does to you too?

But Where does this leave us? Take homosexuality, for instance. There seems to be NO REASON for the use of homosexuality in genes. Homosexuality still exists though. Now, if you believe in a creator, then God MUST have made homosexuals. If this is the case then, is God gay? After all, in the Bible, it clearly states that God made man in his image? I don't say this to offend you, so if you are offended I apologise - but it does ask a question as to the nature of Creationism, does it not?

If you believe in a creator, then please tell us WHY your creator decided to include redundant DNA and useless parts, such as Spleens, Appendix and numerous other problems that are present in Humans? The Human eye, contrary to popular belief, is NOT the best visual device on this planet. Dolphins have better sensory perceptions than mankind. We have an eye - as good as it needs to be to survive! And hell! Mine are so bad, I can't see a damned thing without glasses! LOL!

WHY create useless parts? What purpose would that serve God? There are many perplexing questions that are not yet FULLY understood by evolution - but evolution makes more sense than creationism.

WHY do certain animals - take Sea Horses and their relatives - carry their young in the MALE? Why was there asexuality in many, early species? WHY are certain species of Greenfly - as highlighted by Professor Dawkins in THE SELFISH GENE - capable of giving birth to daughters - without being impregnated by a male? WHY are some creatures born inside eggs - and then later hatch - whilst mammals grow their live inside the body? Why are Marsupials different slightly, in their raising of offspring - i.e the Kangaroo young must work their way up into the mother's pouch?

All these questions deserve answers - and if you believe in evolution, it would be straight-forward enough to realise that life would seek out different variations TO SURVIVE.

If God did this, then surely, he isn't QUITE sure, whether we should be homosexual, or asexual or the females only should ensure the growth of offspring.

I hope some of this makes sense. I have NO INTENTION of changing a Theists beliefs. They are your own, in a free society. But please, do question Creationism. Yes. There COULD be a creator - I've said that countless times - but is it/he/she necessary? Have you considered God could be a her?! I don't understand gender in God.

Kind Regards, William.

134. Dawkins thinks atheism will save us

Comment #3579 by William on October 30, 2006 at 11:40 am

Michael said:

>>Sorry for the rant, but I hate this love affair people have with Royalty.<<

Hi Mike! I agreed with much of what you said, though you need to hear what English people really think.

Although the Royal Family do have a place in our society, understand that the above quote from your posting is an American misconception.

I'd go out on a limb here and say that, most of us English people lost a lot of interest in the Royal family after the death of Diana. Her sons have some interest to us, but the Royal Family as a whole? Most of us neither have the time nor the effort to really care about what they are doing. The majority of us here in England, are more concerned with the likes of Blair and Bush. I can just see them now... at Camp David, praying to God - the invisible one - then having a game of cards, a glass of bourbon - then planning how they will bomb Iraq after thanking God for their meal!

Do you Understand Michael? Most of us DON'T give a hoot about the function of the Royal Family! YES - they may have a place, indeed a history. Just like you celebrate independence day every July 4th. (By the way, you are forgiven for whopping us during that war, thanks to your assistance in WW1 and WW2!)

It amazes me, that English and Americans speak English - but we speak a different language! For instance, all American films portray English people as having a "Rar-therr, well tooo-do accent, ol' boy!"

I live close to Birmingham. I have a Brummie accent that SOUNDS as stupid as an American Yokel. Here in England, the Brummie accent is seen as stupid. I don't know why, it just is! YET, when I visited America - oh hell! You guys loved my accent! I had many comments telling me how much they loved my accent!

That is real freaky, eh?

Kind Regards, William.

135. The Dawkins Delusion

Comment #3557 by William on October 30, 2006 at 8:04 am

Paul said:

>>Religous people on the otherhand can't tolerate anyone who doesn't agree with them (even to the smallest detail). Quite sad really! My one concern in the UK right now is that by bending over backwards to appease certain religions (mainly islam), we are empowering people who ultimately want to take our freedom away.<<

True. Recent estimates stated that around 0.3% - 3.0% of the population are Islamic in the U.K. They are also the loudest moaners. Sikh's have lived here comfortably for years, but we never hear them pushing their agendas or moaning.

Billy S Said:

>>"Jesus was a man." There is some debate about whether he actually did exist. Extrabiblical accounts such as that of josephus are clear forgeries. If he did exist, then a lot of his life is pure fiction, and all his fulfilled prophecies are lies. Don't know if you have seen this before<<

Thanks for the links. I shall read up on them. I've bookmarked them already. Yes, there is controversy over whether Jesus was a real man or a fictional composite. I'd guess that Jesus WAS real, because, although he is mainly mentioned in the Bible, there are other authors - such as Flavius - who did write about him. However, I will look into this more and reserve judgement for now. For now, my position is that Jesus existed, but was nothing more than an intelligent (for a 1st century guy!), man. Consider his better quotations - and they make sense. Consider some of his quite sinister quotations - and maybe he was p*ssed of with the rush hour! (Maybe Camels clogged up the roads in them days!).

Thanks again.

Kind Regards, William.

PS. Notice how we Atheists can laugh at ourselves - AND question our beliefs? Something Theists seem unable to do. DOOM! GLOOM! NAYSAYER! REPENT!

136. The ultimate Bible basher

Comment #3547 by William on October 30, 2006 at 5:03 am

>>There is no human mind that is based on reason and sanity that doesn't see the devistation that religion is causing around the entire world today. I'm begining to see how few human minds are based on reason and sanity.I look forward to reading Richards book.<<

I concur with this statement. Theists espouse truth, yet have NO EVIDENCE in reality to provide us with - yet EXPECT us to believe and further, become ANGRY and VITRIOLIC towards us when we find it hard to believe.

I'll give the Daily Mail praise here - at last, a review that doesn't inflict its own views upon the review - it just states what the book is about.

Kind Regards, William.

137. The Dawkins Delusion

Comment #3546 by William on October 30, 2006 at 4:31 am

Good points here Laura. You may well have correct suspicions.

Phil accuses myself - and all Atheists, of having closed minds - therefore displaying total ignorance to what Atheism and Agnosticism truly is. Further, he has made up his mind that God exists; that the Bible is correct, despite all its flaws and vitriolic teachings. Who has the closed mind, Phil? Earlier you asked me to "not discount the possibility of Jesus". THEISTS HAVE CLOSED MINDS. YOU'VE DECIDED LIFE IS TOO WONDERFUL TO BE PURELY NATURAL, THUS THERE HAD TO BE A CREATOR. YOU DON'T REALLY WANT TO LEARN, YOU JUST WANT EVERYONE TO ACCEPT, LIKE THE GOOD-OL'-DAYS OF THE DARK AGES OF IGNORANCE, SUPERSTITION, WITCH HUNTS AND FEAR.

I'll say again; even the most die-hard of Atheists would be ignorant if they truly believed that a creator could NOT exist. It IS hard to accept that a creation event - a big bang (or the nothing-bang as Phil calls it in his ignorance) - could be the supreme cause of causality. We just don't have all the answers yet. We don't have the elusive Theory-of-Everything that Einstein searched for, without success. Scientists ARE trying though. Atheists and scientists are not content to accept the word of an ancient text as the explanation for all we experience.

Does Phil deny science? Do Theists REALLY believe that the Bible is supernatural in origin? Fair enough if you do - but I'd like to know HOW. HOW do you KNOW the words of the Bible or Qur'an are supernatural in origin? I'd like this explained.

I don't deny science hasn't got ALL our questions solved. It does address many of them though. I'm convinced evolution occurs. I'm convinced evolution involves adaptation to the stress and the environnment.

There is NO evidence of a God. There IS evidence of a man named Jesus. There is NO evidence of miracles. There is NO evidence that Muslims are right and Christians are wrong. There is NO evidence that Jews are right and Muslims are wrong. There is NO evidence that Christians are right and buddhists are wrong....

Get the picture Phil? You Theists accuse Atheists and scientists of not being able to agree on anything. TRUE. Because science is observable, verifiable, falsifiable. You asked earlier why I trust science? WE ALL TRUST SCIENCE DAILY.

DO you NOT have electricity? Edison tested over a 1,000 different chemical combinations, before arriving at the correct formula for a light bulb. Light bulbs work for billions daily.

Marie Curie developed cancer after discovering X-rays; and learned that X-rays are potentially fatal. She gave her life for this cause - and we all benefit from it - have you ever had an X-ray Phil? I have - and they work.

Albert Einstein's many theories are still being tested today. His theories stand up to close scrutiny and are being observed by our Astronomical studies. Do you deny Einstein was a genius? He'd have loved the world of today, with our supercomputers! THINK how far we could progress as a species if we dispensed with silly doctrines and concentrated on expanding our minds!

Do you Phil, deny the contribution to society by the above individuals? They were all Atheists - yet your fairy-tale book of witches states that Atheists are fools.

Ludicrous nonesense. I'd like to know, apart from division and fear, what religious texts have done for Humanity?

NOTHING. ASOLUTELY ZILCH.

You are quite free to practice worshipping Jesus, Phil. Nobody in here wants to stop it. Just don't expect us rational individuals to accept the Bible at face value and then get upset because we disagree with you. We'll NEVER convince you that God is a likely impossibility - NOR will you ever convince us that God exists.

Kind Regards, William.

138. The Dawkins Delusion

Comment #3513 by William on October 29, 2006 at 5:33 pm

Hi Phil. Sorry if you feel hard-done by. Atheists don't mean to offend. BUT YOU MUST ACCEPT that Atheists are tired of having the Bible shoved in our faces and accepted as FACT.

It isn't FACT. YES. There COULD WELL BE A GOD. NO intelligent, rational, open-minded Atheist would deny this idea. I certainly don't.

>>I still haven’t seen a beneficial mutation that is a different kind of animal from its parents.<<

I don't know where you live. Here in England we have MRSA rife in hospitals. This is micro-bacteria, EVOLVING AGAINST ANTI-BIOTICS. Anti-biotics used to work - now MRSA is a strain that is RESISTANT against them. Consider my favourite activity of weight training. Consider sun bathing. Both involve STRESS. I train, my muscles grow. Sit in the sun, you will get a tan: THIS IS ADAPTATION TO THE ENVIRONMENT.

Evolution is a FACT that Theists have to deal with. Evolution DOES NOT DISPROVE GOD. It does, however, challenge the Biblical view of creation - because the dates in the Bible from the birth of Adam, quite clearly place the Genesis account to be 4004 B.C. SO CLEARLY THAT IS WRONG - because scientists have been able to determine that the Earth IS very old. We know the pyramids are at least as old as the Creation story of the Bible. There is a plant in the Mojave desert that is still alive - and it is at least 12,000 years old.

This is NOT arrogance. ARROGANCE is coming on to this forum, shouting off about 'God doing it' - WITHOUT ANY CREDIBLE PROOF. You say 'NOBODY HAS CHALLENGED CHRISTS TEACHINGS'.

I challenge them right here.

Get your Bible. Read Matthew 15:4

What does it say? IT SAYS:

"He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” So. We should kill our children, according to your Lord, when they disobey us. EVIL.

Read Matthew 10:21

What does it say? IT SAYS:

"“Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." So. Jesus wanted us to fight amongst our families, according to your Lord. VILE.

Read Luke. 12: 47

What does it say? IT SAYS:

"And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes." So. Jesus okays having slaves - and further - he says it's okay to BEAT those slaves. HATRED.

I could go on and on. But I trust I've made my point? YOU'RE CRYING NOW, BECAUSE WE DON'T WANT TO WORSHIP YOUR LORD JESUS?

WHAT kind of a man would I be if I worshipped those appalling ideas above? Furthermore, you should study your Bible a bit further, before beating Atheists around the head with it. Jesus made it QUITE clear that the old laws still stood. Which means that the Old Testament, with it's blood and glory philosophy should still be practised. You should be out on the streets murdering non-believers - because your Lord has commanded it.

Old Testament. 2 Chronicles 15: 12 - 13. Read it. It says:

"They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman."

So why are you wasting your time in here? You should go out and start killing us non-believers. Because we are WRONG and your Lord God is commanding you.

Believing in Jesus may be fine for you. I find the worship of a MAN not fine. Jesus was a man. He wasn't a God. I don't doubt he lived. But he was a man. He had problems like the rest of us. I don't worship Professor Dawkins either - but he doesn't ask us to murder our children or beat slaves or lies to us.

You need to check your premises. They are wrong.

Kind Regards, William.

139. The Dawkins Delusion

Comment #3504 by William on October 29, 2006 at 2:52 pm

Hi Billy!

(It sounds like there is one of us talking to ourselves!)

You are quite correct with what you said above. I can't believe some of these Monotheists.

Here's a classic, from an American football game I watched last weekend. A player (it was a college game) was asked about when he would be able to return to play, after suffering a serious injury.

"God has his plans." said the player.

What a profound statement! This statement assumes:

a) God exists
b) That this player has a PRE-ORDAINED DESTINY, made from God
c) That God's plans for this man are obviously important enough to decide when he will be healed
d) That this man and his injury and his ability to play Football again are MORE important than healing the sick/ feeding the starving/ ending wars/ ending division between mankind etc.,

Truly stunning this statement was! Also, consider what RUBBISH Phil writes on here - and the above statement, from another Theist is in DIRECT CONLFICT with Phil. Why?

Phil states that God has given us 'free-will'. The above player stated that God 'has his plans'. Destiny, particularly pre-ordained destiny is IN DIRECT CONLFICT WITH FREE-WILL. We CANNOT have destiny and have free-will - because we wouldn't be able to make our own decisions. We would have to be automotons. Pre-ordained destiny would mean that murderers and deaths are also part of the plan.

Utter, Utter rubbish. I don't know if Professor Dawkins reads any of these threads - but I hope he does. Because right now he would be sounding like this:

"HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!"

Kind Regards, William.

140. I don't believe in Richard Dawkins

Comment #3498 by William on October 29, 2006 at 12:26 pm

Billy Sands said:

>>William,
Is it the jehovahs (right who threw that stone?) witnesses that dont allow blood transfusions? I suggest you ask them to take you to hospital to donate. If you can find it, a guy called Kevin bloody wilson has a great song called the festival of lights that has some good tips on how to deal with them :-) If you live in the US, can you not shoot them for trespassing?<<

An excellent idea Billy! I live in England - and my Mother has already suggested that! I may try it! But to be honest, I think I secretly like arguing with them - I am AMAZED that you can ask people 6 times in one year NOT to knock at your door - and on each occasion they agree that they won't - but they still come back!

Ha ha ha! I'll give them credit for persistence! Though, it is quite clear in the Bible, that you shouldn't be preaching in the street! I bet they don't know that, though!

Kind Regards, William.

141. The Dawkins Delusion

Comment #3497 by William on October 29, 2006 at 12:23 pm

Hi Paul. Agreed again. Hi Billy. Agreed also.

Phil mate, YOU are an example of a Religious zealot. The type that annoys me so much. You speak waffle and haven't addressed my questions correctly. You spout the bible as an authority - based on what evidence? NOTHING in the Bible can be tested or believed. I wouldn't go to my doctor and believe him if he said 'Have faith' that my illness would go. I'd want him to make a rational decision based upon my problems and diagnose a correct medicinal cure. The Bible asks too much. JUST Blind faith. The Bible says that Atheists are fools. Albert Einstein was an Atheist - possibly the greatest scientist EVER - was he a fool for rejecting 1st century texts?

Firstly, I have said MANY times on this site: GOD AS A HYPOTHESIS CANNOT BE OVERRULLED. Yes. God could be the cause of the Creation event. I've never denied this. As Atheists or Agnostics - nobody can be certain. I still stand in my Atheistic position though. Because science CAN and IS demonstrated. I can find microbes simply by looking through a microscope. You and I CANNOT find God with any of our scientific progress. So where does this leave us? YOUR God gave us the capacity to think, to search, to study; YET we still can't find him with any science! And remember, OUR science HAS to be God's Science by definition! So why can't we find him amongst the stars or wherever it is 'he' is? Why such a mystery? Is he DELIBERATELY hiding? What's the point? Do you have a point, or are you just going to insult everyone on here, because we refuse to accept your irrationality? Believe if you must - I respect your views. But DON'T tell us Atheists we are wrong. You can't prove we are wrong. We don't make extraordinary claims of deluded Grandeur.

>>God made man with free will in a perfect environment but man used his free will to object Gods authority and brought the divine curse sin in the world. Our father showed no indoctrination to us and we can choose from right and wrong which I can’t imagine emerging from nature (if you can deny absolutes from right and wrong then you can’t be absolutely right in your own argument).<<

Based upon what? We do not have free will, by definition. Because this 'Free will' you espouse has consequences in your 'afterlife'. According to your Bible (and WHO said the Bible was an authority? God? How do YOU know? You base all your evidence on what? The words of an ancient, unproven, mis-translated text?) Prove to me the Mr.Men exist. They're in book form too. There is nothing mystical or Godly in the Bible. Would you like me to write some quotes down from the Bible? Would you be able to tell me what they meant and why they are so ghastly? The Bible espouses murder, violence, child rape, rape, intolerance, sexism and ignorance. But you expect us to believe the Creation fairytale? If you don't know this, then you haven't read the Bible fully, nor do you understand its message. Further, this 'PERFECT' environment you harp on about, is NOTHING of the sort. There have been ice ages on this planet. There have been mass extinctions. Indeed, we may even wipe ourselves out. Life is so strong, yet so weak. Disease will take many of us. Your God designed disease for what reason? To suffer? WHAT kind of God inflicts suffering upon his creations for 'taking the fruit from the tree' - when HE HIMSELF provided that tree?! GOD is the CAUSE of all Sin - whether you blame Satan or whatever, God is the ultimate cause of causality! Can't you understand this? IF THERE IS SUFFERING AND SIN IN THE WORLD, THEN BY DEFINITION GOD HAS TO HAVE CREATED IT, THUS GOD CAN'T BE THE LOVING GOD YOU CLAIM HE IS! Why not just make the Garden of Eden right the first time? Then we would be perfect.

>>f you are so persistent in asking me “what is wrong with questioning your own belief” then why don’t you? You are asking creationists to question every scientific study of God and their admitted faith, then why don’t you ask the same of science to prove nothing can explode and show you a beneficial mutation as it is meant to be the study of hard facts (you clearly don’t understand the definition of science and progression via theories)?<<

DO NOT INSULT MY INTELLIGENCE. I've NEVER been ignorant, rude or insulting to any Theist in here. YOU clearly don't understand Logic or scientific concept. It is YOU who have the closed mind. I don't know why you are even on this website? This is a site for people with open minds, people who are Atheists/ Agnostic. YOU have church and other sites for your beliefs. Professor Dawkins designed this site for Atheists - so we can talk about our rationality - not your irrationality. We don't need your type in here, confirming EVEN more why we refuse to believe your propoganda. As for the Big Bang - which is what I guess you are harping on about in the above insult - Yes. It could be a creation event, created by your God or A GOD. I don't deny that. Some scientists who study the Big Bang indeed still do believe in a creator. Your misconception here is that something (Us) came from nothing (The big bang). Current models on the big bang don't start with NOTHING. They start with the idea of a hot, dense universe, full of quarks, neutrinos etc., Yes. We don't know what the proto-universe was like. There are a million questions to be answered! You won't find them in that drivel called the Bible. The bible mentions NOTHING of Atomic Theory, Genetics, Palaeontology/ Geology/ Fossils/ Dinosaurs/ Science as a whole. YET You take it as red that it is right? How ridiculous. You're the one with the closed mind. Your rubbish postings above convince me even further that you Theists think you are above the rest of us. And you're right. We are wrong and are going to hell - the hell that your God has kindly prepared for me because I find his creations hideous at times. 100,000,000 died in wars alone during the 20th Century. Your God watched and did nothing. Does he enjoy watching us kill each other? What a hideous entity your God must be, eh?

FACT: I am an Atheist; but I don't state that God CAN'T exist, just that it is MOST UNLIKELY.
FACT: You are a Theist, twisted in your thinking, believing God is watching you in heaven and that you are scoring 'brownie' points against the Unclean unGodly filth on this website.

You didn't address my logic earlier. I do question science. That is the beauty and essence of science. unlike your fairy tale Bible.

PERFECTION is what you Theists state as FACT (based upon what? The Bible? Ancient gibberish.). You State that God made this beautiful universe. IMPERFECT CREATIONS CANNOT COME FROM A PERFECT CREATOR. It is logically incorrect. A PERFECT BEING CAN ONLY THINK OF PERFECT CONCEPTS. Can you not understand this? THEREFORE HE CAN ONLY MAKE PERFECT CREATIONS, IDEAS/ CONCEPTS OR UNIVERSES/ LIFEFORMS. Clearly, we are NOT perfect. Therefore explain how we are here? Free will, DOES NOT address this logical inconsistency. Did your God, the perfect one, decide "Hmmm. I'm going to make some half-assed effort at making some living beings", and then went ahead and did it? Why? What is his point? To be worshipped in his goodness? I think your logic is fundamentally twisted - as is your God's.

Atheists DO question science. WE do NOT agree with the works of every scientist. We accept some ideas and reject others. Do you deny science? If so, then you can't believe in Gravity, technology, medicine, the industrial revolution, gadgetry, astronomy, Biology, Chemistry or any of the plethora of sciences that Test, Validate, Verify or Falsify observable phenomena.

I could spout at you forever. You'd never agree with me. I'd never convince you that you were wrong (neither would I want to), nor will you convince me of your arguments based upon the Bible. You can't imagine 'right' from 'wrong' emerging from nature. Perhaps 'right' and 'wrong' are too subjective in terminology. Killing is 'right' for a lion. Indeed, a lot of lifeforms eat other lifeforms on this planet. The difference here, is that Human's have evolved to an extent, an ethical philosophy of our own. We make laws and expect every person to observe them.

Which is best then? The laws of your God, or the laws of man? The Bible states that tatoos are forbidden; that long hair on men is forbidden; that women are forbidden from becoming preists or speaking in church; that homosexuals are wrong (despite creating them); that children that disobey their parents should be killed; that anyone who swears in God's name will be sent to hell FOREVER.

Yet man has worked out that homosexuals are worthy of equal rights; that long hair on men can be attractive; that women deserve equality; that tattoos are just art; that children should be loved and nurtured.

You are the one talking waffle phil. Complete drivel. I can provide you with the exact Bible portions that are RIDICULOUS if you like? I'd like to see your explanations of them. I HAVE an open mind. I DON'T completely reject God. Just the God of your Bible or Al Quran or whatever other nonesense that ancient ingorant herders wrote.

Kind Regards, William.

142. The Dawkins Delusion

Comment #3427 by William on October 28, 2006 at 2:17 pm

Agreed Paul. WHY oh WHY can't these Theists do something more constructive than attacking Atheists?

I can understand where THEY'RE coming from - but they can't seem to reason where we're coming from. It is quite natural to look up at the heavens or a beautiful landscape or a map of the planets and think:

"Wow! Amazing! God's work is glorious!"

But that doesn't mean for one instant that 'He' exists. It is even MORE amazing to an Atheist to look up at those same heavens and think:

"Wow! Nature is marvellous!"

The fact that we are here, is illuminating. God does not explain all the loose ends, though. Such as, why there is disease; why we have to defecate; why children fall prey to illness; why hideous defects exist; why our bodies have parts we do not need; why animals such as primates share such similarities; why Dinosaurs existed; why micro-bacteria are all around us; why there are so many billions of different species of insect; why introducing 1 species to another area of the planet can be fatal; why we have other planets in our solar sytem; why billions upon billions upon billions of other stars exist; why science exists, whether we've discovered it or not (ie electromagneticism, gravity, background cosmic radiation); I could go on and on and bore you further, but you get the idea.

Remove the God equation and it makes more sense. Natural process in a natural universe. We can still argue over a 'creator' of sorts, if we wanted - because we just don't know - but the God of the Bible certainly MUST not exist. Why?

Logic. Theists say that God is a 'perfect being'. I say perfect means 'Whole. Complete. Entire. Missing nothing. Knowing everything'.

A PERFECT BEING CANNOT make an IMPERFECT BEING. It is illogical and a contradiction. A PERFECT BEING CAN ONLY MAKE PERFECT CREATIONS. We are clearly NOT perfect - so a perfect Creator God is IMPOSSIBLE.

You can argue this point forever. It is IMPOSSIBLE. So the omnipotent God of the Bible CANNOT exist. You can still make the point of a creator - maybe an imperfect creator, only being able to create. Sure. Fine. Whatever. The point is, that God may WELL NOT BE A NECESSARY FUNCTION OF THE NATURAL UNIVERSE WE LIVE IN.

If Theists REALLY want to do some good in the world, then why don't they DESIST from showing us the errors of our ways and instead PERFORM A SCIENTIFIC STUDY FOR GOD. Find out WHERE he is. WHERE he lives. Does he live? Is he an immortal being? HOW did he create us? What IS Divine inspiration? Does he have a physical form? Is he a spiritual being? What is a spiritual being? Get the point?

Throwing scripture at us proves NOTHING. The same scriptures have quite evil connotations in part. I could quote the Mr. Men at you all night - it doesn't mean they exist. And saying you can 'Feel God's presence!' or 'He is there, I KNOW it!' is not damned well good enough. And you know it. If you are a Theist and you haven't fell asleep yet at my words, CONSIDER the possibilities of what I've just said. Maybe you could become the FIRST THEIST to destroy Atheism with a correct scientific body of evidence for God! Imagine that? You'd be able to shut up all us smug Atheists!

But you can't. And you won't. And you don't know how. So I shall continue to eject Jehovah's witnesses' from my door with their silly arguments - such as not being able to give blood! How blindly ignorant! How incredibly stupid! Blood is just a chemical process created in the body!

Kind Regards, William.

PS. If you got to the end of that I congratulate you! I apologise for taking so long. I have a problem saying everthing in a few lines, unlike many of my peers above! Well done if you got to the end!

143. I don't believe in Richard Dawkins

Comment #3424 by William on October 28, 2006 at 1:52 pm

Hi all! All excellent points made above.

Michelle said:

>>I am presently musing the following questions: If we are going to take in stride the wonderful results of human creativity and imagination like art, science, and literature, do we also have to take in stride the malevolent results like religious superstitions? Can the emphasis on nurturing the development of rationality in children, increase or stifle this creativity? <<

This is such an excellent point! I had the damned Jehovah's Looneys at my door yesterday. THEY GET MY GOAT UP! I want to shake them by their heads and make them listen to reason - but they'd never get the point!

I remember thinking as they waffled on and as I pushed the stubborn swines out of my gate, these people OBVIOUSLY wish we were all back in mud huts, with only the village priest as the 'man in the know'.

Consider what Religion has REALLY bought us? Some say it comforts them, some say they 'respect' other religions (whilst believing in different ideas - I mean, come on!) and some say Religion is a good thing. But is it?

WHERE would we be now if we hadn't discovered the wonders of science? I have a laptop. I was innoculated against disease as a kid. I have clean water (I wish all the world did). I have a toilet. I have cooking utensils and gas heat/ cooking devices and I've electricity. I have many TV's. I have many radios - including 2 DAB radio's. I have a mobile phone. I have a car. I have gadgets a plenty! The industrial revolution was MAGNIFICIENT! I am learning so much from the works of Professor Dawkins. I am learning about Astronomy and Chemistry and Biology and Cosmology and on and on..

Sorry to sound like a FAST SHOW reject. But science is brilliant! It is even MORE brilliant in the fact that science EXISTS NOT because we say, but just BECAUSE. Radio waves are there whether we hone them or not. HOW can any believer in God deny the value of scientific study and progress?

Yet, I maintain that many of these believers YEARN for the mud-hut era. They'd love us all blasted back into the Bronze age.

I thought this as I argued with the Jehovah's yesterday. I thought: "If it were left to you lot, we'd all be on our knees worshipping the greatness of your invisible Lord!"

Instead of attacking the likes of Professor Dawkins, why don't these Theists do something more constructive - like FINDING God in REALITY. Study God - NOT study ancient texts - do a scientific study of God. If they can come up with ONE TRUE iota of science, proving the existence of God, I will be a believer too! But you and I know this is never going to happen... they're more content to just carry on spouting what was written down by ancient peoples, many thousands of years ago.

Ludicrous.

Kind Regards, William.

144. God knows why faith is thriving

Comment #3299 by William on October 27, 2006 at 8:44 am

Pansies4Me Said:

>>My son knows I don't believe in God, and he knows his dad does<<

Hi! Then you have nothing to worry about. Your child will get a BALANCED view of the whole subject. There is nothing inheritantly WRONG with believing in a creator - Atheism is WRONGLY portrayed. Atheists like myself would suggest that the evidence points TOWARDS their not being a God or at least unlikely.

My parents were strongly religious. I didn't get the balanced view. I got a distorted view, but now as a man, I no longer subscribe to such ideals. I search for the truth instead of quoting ancient scritpures. There is both Good and bad in the Bible. But the Bible isn't the only reason to believe. You could look up at the heavens and think "My! Isn't existence wonderful?" This could be evidence of a God - but then again, natural process may be our God. We just don't have all the pieces of the Jigsaw yet. Encourage your child to do a study for God. Find God. Conduct the first REAL scientific study of God. Believers may say that God is in your heart. That is not enough for me, but it may be for a person of faith.

As for my parents, I believe my Dad is now Agnostic/ Atheist. My Mother is definitely Theist; but she listens to my views. We still have interesting arguments and discussions. It is a fascinating subject and the most important dilemma for our species. Cherish the input from your husband, but put the case for Atheism as strong. I'm sure that your child will grow up to be an intelligent, sentient person, capable of making decisions for himself.

You will still love him. He will still love his parents. Nothing can change that. I don't subscribe to the idea that believers are stupid. The believers who ARE stupid, are those who promote that belief through the Bible ALONE. The Bible was clearly a tool to protect the public of the day. It can be open to much debate today.

Yet, although the bible does have many errors, it does have logical goodness. It IS wrong to kill (though the Bible does contradict itself here at times). Coveting another man's wife IS wrong - because of the break up of families and the children that are left to suffer.

I can't foresee a problem with your child's progress. Asking questions is a good sign. This is all Professor Dawkins is asking of us. To Question. Not just to accept the word of the bible.

I wish you much love and peace.

Kind Regards, William.

145. Fundamentalist Religion and Science

Comment #3296 by William on October 27, 2006 at 8:06 am

Dragutin should read the Bible entirely before spouting on here. As Atheists, we probably know more about the Bible than most Theists. Here are just a FEW of the MANY evil quotes from the Bible Mythology:

>>Well, how to prove tha