1851. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #167929 by Diacanu on April 24, 2008 at 12:30 pm

Y'know, some of these people really are so far gone, that if you took them back in time aboard a fucking shrinking time machine, and watched evolution occur cell by cell, gene by gene, they'd still be like "well, where's you scanner for seeing God do it?".

It's discouraging.

1852. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #167915 by Diacanu on April 24, 2008 at 12:21 pm

TheTruthID-

Got any proof for Macro-evolution?

Fossils.
DNA.

Please don't send me to another useless website

Like Answers In Genesis or the Expelled site?

I wouldn't dream of it.

1853. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #167905 by Diacanu on April 24, 2008 at 12:16 pm

TheTruthID-

I can't understand or will not understand

Then there's the door.
Bye.

1854. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #167894 by Diacanu on April 24, 2008 at 12:10 pm

TheTurthID-

Micro-evolution is fact. Macro-evolution is fairytale.

Got any proof?

1855. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #167870 by Diacanu on April 24, 2008 at 11:48 am

TTID-

Got any proof of ID for us yet?

1856. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #167866 by Diacanu on April 24, 2008 at 11:43 am

Annabanana-

My understanding of what people think they mean when they use those terms is that micro evolution are small "adaptations" of an organism while still remaining the same species. Sort of like Lamarckian-style evolution. Macro evolution would be the changing of one species into another, which creationists deny is possible because if they admit that this is possible, they have to admit that Genesis is wrong, which isn't an option for them.

Now, all that being said, why would gaining or losing genetic information as a species evolved indicate or not indicate a designer?

Steve Zara-

I am not even sure what "macro" evolution is supposed to mean.

"Micro-evolution", and "macro-evolution", are bullshit language that some church fathers somewhere dreamed up, and it's their sad pathetic attempt to have their cake and eat it too.

See, I think even christians are dimly aware that if they abolish evolution outright, it'll destroy science.

So, they want their fairy tales, but they want antibiotics to save their ass too, so they think they can play this little game of saying there are two kinds of evolution, and only one of them is bad.

They actually see this loony lying mess as compromise, so are naturally wounded and outraged when we don't accept it.

Well, we're making progress.
The compromise used to be "shut up about the world being round, or we'll burn you at the stake".

1857. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #167333 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 10:55 pm

TTID-

No takers to my questions.

You have a huge-ass backlog of our questions to answer first.

There is only one alternative to evolution.

You have your work cut out for you to prove that assertion.

1858. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #167328 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 10:49 pm

ArmageddonKitten-
Yeah, I know what a troll is, and I know TTID is one.

But, people lurk these threads, and I want them to see trolling and smarm is all the ID side seems to have.

If the IDers want to disprove this charicterization, they should send better representatives.

1859. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #167324 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 10:41 pm

Still waiting for proof of ID.

1860. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #167318 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 10:20 pm

TheTruthID-

Still waiting for some proof of ID.

1861. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #167316 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 10:16 pm

So, got any proof of intelligent design for us?

1862. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #167314 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 10:10 pm

TheTruthID-

A different species? Really? Is that because it had a mutation and developed wings to fly?

By that line of reasoning, an owl and a carrier pigeon are the same animal, because they both have wings.

...or, maybe that is your line of reasoning...

You don't really seem to even know what evolution is to argue against it.

1863. Investigating Atheism

Comment #167305 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 9:38 pm

The purpose of this site is to set these contemporary 'God Wars' in their historical context, and to offer a range of perspectives (from all sides) on the chief issues raised by the 'new atheists'.

The current polarised nature of the 'new atheism' debate often discourages serious discussion of the very issues that the 'new atheists' have brought so forcibly to the attention of the public.

*Sniff, sniff*

Hmm...fish..."Crossroads", anyone?

1864. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #167294 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 9:11 pm

MaxD-

You left an italics tag open, please fix.

1865. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #167235 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 6:39 pm

raghu_mani-

Go troll on any message board on any subject on the internet and you'll find people getting riled up at you.

Funny that, huh?

Imagine us, not wanting moronic theocrats smearing feces all over science, and regressing us into the dark ages.

Gosh, we should be ashamed of ourselves.
How dare we emotionally react to anything?
We're supposed to be Vulcans.
TTID's minister said so.
Our failure to be Vulcans in the face of idiotic trolling means evolution is false, and everything is made out of little dancing angels!
Hoooray, Jesus!!

1866. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #167231 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 6:32 pm

TTiD-

How do you guys feel about Dawkins pretty much admitting to a creator in the movie, Expelled?

Y'mean this?

http://richarddawkins.net/article,2480,Gods-and-earthlings,Richard-Dawkins

Too bad it didn't happen.

1867. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #167227 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 6:23 pm

TTID-

So, you're just here to troll, eh?

So much for your claims of "educating".

1868. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #167220 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 6:17 pm

TheTruthID-

Can we safely conclude you're never going to supply positive evidence of ID?

Yes or no?

1869. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #167213 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 6:10 pm

TheTruthID-

If all of you equate that the proof of micro-evolution is proof of all evolution

It is.

then you are all more uneducated and misinformed then I gave you credit for.

Present evidence.

1870. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #167207 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 6:05 pm

TheTruthID-

But I am not wrong.

Present the evidence.

Modification and adaptation is not the same as what you consider to be evolution.

It's the very basis of it.

What what else do you think evolution is besides that?

I know you already don't buy the Micro, Macro evolution concept,

It's a bullshit debate wedge made up by creationists.
That's all it ever was.

but it's fact. Micro-evolution is not the evolution you are defending.

When you get a shitload of microevolutions for hundreds of thousands to millions of years, you get macroevolution.

To accept microevolution is to accept evolution period.

1871. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #167198 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 5:56 pm

TheTruthID-

all that was happening was passing on of genes in which the stronger ones able to show resistence were then able to pass on their more resistence genes.

Surprise! You believe in evolution!

1872. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #167193 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 5:47 pm

TheTruthID-

Or did it you see it turn into a frog?

Okay, you are now officially an ignorant ass motherfucker.

You've crossed the line from misinformed and misled, to a chronic and habitual fucktard.

1873. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #167185 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 5:40 pm

TheTruthID-

All you have so far, is argument from authority.
And even that's been debunked as selective quote mining.

And you have yet to present any peer reviewed ID papers from any of your sources.

Ah, but that's right, ID doesn't make it through peer review, because of the giant evil atheist conspiracy.

But, there's no evidence for this evil conspiracy, except the paranoid ramblings of some bitter creationists, and a spin-meistered documentary featuring them.

And there's tons of evidence that said makers of the spin-meistered documentary are sharlatains and carnival barkers.

But, you believe it because...you want to.

So, all you have is feelings.

A mountain of evidence for evolution, versus, your feelings.

Hey, you could get points on your side of the scoreboard with one shred of positive evidence for ID.

Go on, punish us, destroy us, bring holy justice down apon or satanic little skulls, pull out that piece of magic evidence.
Come on boy, you can do eet!!

1874. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #167171 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 5:27 pm

TheTruthID-

Finding imaginary little dents in evolution is not the way you go about proving ID.

Even if you blew evolution to bits with a dynamite flaw tommorrow, ID would not be the default theory to replace it.
You have all your work cut out for you to prove ID is the default theory, and then glaciers of work to go to attach any partcular religion as the default form of ID.

You know what would save you the mountain of work of tearing down evolution?
Positive proof of ID.
One scrap.
That'd end the debate overnight.

A string of junk DNA that when run on a laptop, makes a hologram from God would be good.

Or, a dinosaur saddle, that'd shake things up.

Such evidence doesn't seem to be forthcoming.

1875. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #167164 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 5:17 pm

TheTruthID-

Chipping away at evolution is not positive proof of ID.

Supply positive proof of ID.

Evidence, please.

1876. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #167159 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 5:09 pm

TheTruthID-

If what you all have been responding to me with is all you have,

Present the evidence.

then either you have nothing

Present the evidence.

or are truly uneducated.

Present the evidence.

Is this the best evolutionists have to offer? No wonder your THEORY is deep deep trouble.

Present the evidence.

Hey Steve Zara, where can I read any of your published papers? You stated that you were a so called scientist. I never heard of you. Must not be associated with any highly respected evolution
groups.

Present the evidence.

1877. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #167153 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 5:05 pm

TheTruthID-

Why are you here?

What are your views?

What evidence do you have for them?

1878. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #167135 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 4:48 pm

So, let's recap.

Evolution has on its side, mountains of fossils, a readily and massive interlocking family tree of DNA, literal mountains of geological evidence, cellular biology, anatomy, viral and bateriological evidence, etc, etc...

ID has on it's side....whispered suggestions, half mumbled conjectures, snarky melodramatic incredulity, distortion, prevarication, pouted lips, prayer clasped hands, and gallons of bitter tears.

Yeah, I think I know which one I'm going with.

1879. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #167121 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 4:31 pm

Steve @ post 783-

Agreed, this is most tedious and unproductive.

Everyone, if you're going to engage this twit at all, pound him with Steve's questions in post 759 until he coughs something substantive up.

Bile and spittle won't do, make him vomit up some actual meat.

1880. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #167109 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 4:11 pm

TheTruthID-

You claim I have demonstrated no ideas or views to you

No, that's a lie.
No one has said that.

You have presented ideas, and you have presented views.

You have, however, presented no evidence to back those views, and have wiggled and distorted, and tried to reverse the burdon of proof to avoid doing so.

And when you are called on this, you play the victim.

It's not going to wash, we see through it.

1881. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #167097 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 3:57 pm

This this is still going, eh?

TTID- Oh please. More double talk.

Yes, we're all so cowed by your personal incredulity.

Why do you not focus the level of proof you're demanding of evolution onto your religion?

You consistantly flee from that little mental excercise, don't you?

You've dodged every question put to you.

Why should we debate with you?

1882. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #166884 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 1:26 pm

TheTruthID-

Everything to you has to be explained by science,

Yes, it does.

Otherwise, we'd have to wing it on feeling, and we wouldn't have even been able to invent the fucking wheel, or harness fire.

1883. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #166852 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 1:04 pm

TheTruthID-

I never once mentioned the bible or Jesus. My spiritual beliefs have nothing to do with scientific fact.

Ah, but it has everything to do with it.

You made the claim that minus an "absolute standard", that presumendly being God, then "anything goes".

I offered proof to why that assertion was bullshit.

Then, you added to that proof, by admitting absent a religion, you wouldn't be a babykiller.

So, if you had been raised on a desert island that had never heard of any religion, you'd be the exact same person that you are now morally.

So, what do we need God for?

If we don't need him to be moral, then what are all the relgions even for?

Either we have our own innate moral sense, or God magically whispers into our ear.
But if the latter were the case, again, what do we need the middle-men, and books of religion for?

And if we don't need the middle-men, and books, and churches, then all the prayer bullshit, and church heirarchies, and boring rituals, and authorities are a big scam, and you're left with deism.

And if deism is unpalatable to you, then you have all your work cut out for you picking a religion, and explaining why yours is the best one.

And note that your transcendental numinous emotional experience are not evidence, because people of all faiths can cite them.

All the religions can't be simultaneously true, so some of them, or all of them sadly have to be either deluded or lying.

So, even after having done all that mountain of work, with all of those challenges against you, you STILL have all your work cut out for you to explain why we atheists are moral absent faith.
Because, I assure you, we are.

Either we have an innate moral sense, or God whispers in our ears, and we don't know it.

OR, we're not moral somehow.

Despite that we harm no one, despite that we love our families, despite that we break no laws, and commit no crimes, despite all of this somehow, we're still immoral.

I hope you see how that would be a totally irrational position, or there really is no talking to you.

Science has proven that life is too organized and complex to have been started by chance

Supply the evidence.

1884. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #166813 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 12:43 pm

TheTruthID-

More gibberish.

So, any science you don't like, or any big words you're not bright enough to grasp, you're just going to dismiss as "gibberish".

That's the very definition of a closed mind.

Give us a good reason to debate with you then.
I'm not seeing it anymore.

1885. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #166791 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 12:34 pm

TheTruthID-

Answer my question in post 589 would you?

Thanks.

1886. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #166775 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 12:25 pm

TheTruthID-

but can't even explain the most important question, how life began.

Well, even if that were so, plugging the hole with "Goddidit", is no answer at all.

Without this, any theory you can come up with is irrelevant.

Really?
Then let's throw away all science, and thus all modern living, and go back to the caves.

Quantum theory explains how a transister works, but it doesn't answer where life came from yet, so throw away your computer.

Or, plug the hole with "Goddidit", so you can be a hypocrite, and keep your modern appliances, and thus your ability to maintain this conversation about your personally held superstitions.

It's ludicrous.

Yes, religion is.

1887. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #166745 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 12:05 pm

TheTruthID-

Without religion, would I become a baby killer? I'll answer no to that

Well, there you go.

You're inherently a good person who knows slaughtering babies for dinner is wrong.

Same as me, same as the rest of us.

So, what part does Jesus have to do with any of that?

1888. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #166725 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 11:52 am

TheTruthID-

Are you going to answer my question?

1889. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #166695 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 11:39 am

Remnant-

Is that what your pack of fairy tales from your cult indoctrination has led you to deduce?

*Eyeroll*
Now how did I know that lame desperate comeback was coming?

Well, if you can explain to me how non-belief in any God or Gods, or anything supernatural is a fairy tale, let me have it.

Should be interesting.

1890. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #166688 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 11:33 am

TheTruthID-

Answer my question first.

Without religion, would you become a baby killer?

1891. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #166666 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 11:23 am

TheTruthID-

Diacanu,

Why would I try to harm you? I'm trying to help and educate you.

You completely miss my point.

You say without religion, anything goes.
That's bullshit, and deep down inside yourself, you know it.

Without religion, would you suddenly become a baby killer?
I doubt it.

None of us are.

Look at chimpanzees.
They defend their children, they mourn their dead, they cooperate like a family unit.
They're, well, decent people.

And they had no monkey-Moses or monkey-Jesus to tell them to be good.

Morality comes from us.
The proof is as easy as looking at our cousins.

1892. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #166647 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 11:14 am

TheTruthID-

Anything goes.

Wrong.
Try to harm me, or a member of my family, and see what happens.

1893. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #166621 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 10:48 am

I dunno where else to let loose with this rant, but here's another thing about the brainwashed that's irritating the fuck out of me.

There's this new tack that's being taken, and it's implicit to the message of "Expelled", too, that science is evil because it's elitist.

Um, excuse me, but what the fucking fuck is more elitist than a bunch of self elected church motherfuckers deciding all by themselves that humanity is too stupid and evil to be left to its own devices, so they use a book of ancient myth to construct an institution that controls your mind, beats into your head from childhood an ideology of blind obedience, herds you like sheep, and even openly calls you a fucking FLOCK!!!???

1894. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #166607 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 10:39 am

*Sigh* They're still hanging on with a white knuckled resolve I see.

Y'know, it's funny, I used to be a deist.
A deist disbelieves in organized religion, and revealed texts, but thinks there may be a designer to the cosmos.

Even as a deist, I knew "intelligent design", was bullshit.

As I deist, I believed that the creation was the revelation, not some crummy old books full of fairy tales, but I thought the pattern, the signature of God in nature was yet to be discovered.

And I knew that pattern/signature was NOT to be found in "intelligent design", because even with my deist mind, I knew "intelligent design", was christianity in a trojan horse.

I can't imagine if I'd swallowed that ID crap to start with.

But, I do know I used to defend my deist stuff with equal tenacity as TruthID is fighting for "intelligent design".

To lose religion, it takes a mind so open, you're willing to hear more and more and more evidence, until the evidence even kills your pet theory you love so much.

TGD wasn't the main ingredient that killed my deism, but it was the final straw.

Fortunately, deism leaves your mind scientifically open for deism itself to be killed by evolutionary evidence.

Christianity, not so much.
That's a tougher road to hoe.

We're talking breaking full blown brainwashing there.

1895. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #166596 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 10:25 am

Remnant-

You believe in a pack of fairy tales, and have been indoctrinatesd into a cult, it's as simple as that.

I'm sure you see all other religions as fake cults, and the only reason you don't see yours as such, is because you're inside the bubble.

Your scripture quoting, and "spreading the good news", looks exactly like Hari Krishnas with flowers, and witch doctors shaking around a dead chicken to us.

It doesn't impress.
It's more a mixture of sad and amused.

1896. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #166582 by Diacanu on April 23, 2008 at 10:13 am

Remnant-

The Bible testifies...

"Bibesays", used as substitute for scientific evidence.

Epic fail.

Go back to your little cult.
They're the only ones who'll tell you you're smart.

1897. Is religion a threat to rationality and science?

Comment #166151 by Diacanu on April 22, 2008 at 9:12 pm

*Skims ahead to the Lord Winston reply*

Blaise Pascal, whose famous wager...

Well, fuck him.

*Goes back to read the Dennet bit*

1898. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #165723 by Diacanu on April 22, 2008 at 6:11 am

Lol, whenever a religite loses their cool, and has a navyjake style meltdown, it all looks like this to me.

"I want my imaginary friend!! I want my imaginary friiieeeend!!! You fucker!! You fucker!! How dare you!!! Stop laughing!!! Respect my imaginary friend this instant, you piece of shit!!! If you don't respect my imaginary friend, he'll die!!! And if he dies, I'll fucking kill you!!!! I need him to live!!! Give him back!!!! Stop laaaugghing you fuuuuck!!!".

And it just makes me laugh harder.
It'll probably be my undoing someday.
God's fanclub take themselves way too fucking seriously.

1899. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #165577 by Diacanu on April 21, 2008 at 5:55 pm

Kenneth-

Science cannot find absolute truth.

And religion can?

Science is the educational search for the best description of absolute truth. If humans truly understood gravity (well at all), we would be able to defy it. Instead, we must "brute force" gravity. We use rockets, planes, etc.

No shit.

Don't make the mistake of believing that our description of gravity now is the best that it will ever be. That is foolish.

Well, whatever our understanding "Goddidit", will never be an adequate one.
That is foolish.

1900. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #165401 by Diacanu on April 21, 2008 at 12:47 pm

Frankus1122-

You worry me.

Don't let him.
He's just a bully with keyboard courage.

Bullies are cowards, and keyboard bullies moreso.

Guy probably looks like a fucking lawn gnome for all we know.