151. That's it. Texas really is doomed.

Comment #186060 by FightingFalcon on May 29, 2008 at 12:39 pm

I was going to say that that was exactly my point. I don't know, maybe it is. But there are some times when you really want to offend somebody. I wouldn't want powerful words removed from my arsenal at this point.

When al-rawandi is on the warpath, he comes up with some marvellous stuff, which is designed to agitate and call out the opponent. Why has he allowed certain offensive phrases and not allowed others? Its something we all do. I wouldn't use the word "nigger" in a derogatory fashion, but then again if I was attacking some prick like Joseph Kony (who's army kipdaps children and forces them to fight and kill their fellow countrymen), such a powerful word actually seems pretty apt.

Honestly, we don't have to get this nit-picky do we?

Let's just settle on the simple agreement that there will probably never be a point in our lives where it will be justified for us to use highly pejorative words that many find offensive.

The Lord's Resistance Army notwithstanding...

152. That's it. Texas really is doomed.

Comment #186052 by FightingFalcon on May 29, 2008 at 12:21 pm

I realize that we've moved on from the whole socialized health care bit, but if I could ask why Fighting Falcon cited the Toronto Sun as evidence of respectable journalism on any topic given that a more opinionated daily rag doesn't exist to my knowledge in Canada (a poor argument I realize, however I do live in the Toronto area and read many of the daily papers there), and especially as the gist of the article appears to be "woman receives treatment in hospital but is uncomfortable while getting it", I would be much obliged. Not quite sure how this indicates a failure of nationalized health care.

BTW - long-time lurker, first time posting.

I'm honored that your first post is directed at me =)

Honestly, I kind of figured that the Toronto Sun was a tabloid rag on par with the NY Post just by the layout of the website but I figured that I'd give it a shot.

I only posted that article because I remember just reading it online somewhere and it was fresh in my mind. I didn't feel like looking up other articles about people waiting on long lines in countries with socialized medicine, even though I know that they are out there.

153. That's it. Texas really is doomed.

Comment #186045 by FightingFalcon on May 29, 2008 at 12:09 pm

You are the kind of person who picks little fuzz balls off the blanket on his couch, huh?

Hey man....I do that =)

But then again I do suffer from obsessive compulsive personality disorder, so...

154. That's it. Texas really is doomed.

Comment #186039 by FightingFalcon on May 29, 2008 at 12:04 pm

Agree with you on words being taboo, but I disagree that any speech should be silenced just because it's hateful. You don't win an argument by silencing your opponent. People are gonna hate whether we like it or not. If we're permitted to vent their spleen, then so are they. If it's just language, then silencing a douche just makes me a bigger douche.

I agree completely - the government shouldn't use force to silence others. I wish humans could just have the basic common decency to not use words that they are know are exceptionally offensive to certain groups.

155. That's it. Texas really is doomed.

Comment #186038 by FightingFalcon on May 29, 2008 at 12:02 pm

And when you say there are "some" words that shouldn't be used, what other ones are there? Cunt? Honkey? Which ones give you that special level of offence you get when you hear the word "nigger"?

Faggot is another. Other than my use here (just wanted to spell that out for you first...) there is never a justified use for that word when used in a derogatory fashion.

When one black man says to another "hey, my nigger" and neither are offended, I don't see the problem.

Then the word itself isn't offensive and it shouldn't matter if white people used it too in a non-offensive manner....

But that's not how the debate is framed. Either the word is wrong or it isn't.

156. That's it. Texas really is doomed.

Comment #186023 by FightingFalcon on May 29, 2008 at 11:17 am

a) How are they perceived in the black community. (Cosby was trashed, but by who? Chris Rock got a fantastic response from his mostly black audience.)

Chris Rock was joking - Cosby wasn't. I guarantee you that if Chris Rock turned serious, the crowd would turn against him.

Also (get this), most of the anger against Cosby wasn't what he was saying but rather where he said it. Many of Cosby's comments were made in public forums where white people were present or could hear it. Black people weren't necessarily offended that Cosby made the comments he did but rather that he was "airing dirty laundry" in front of the white community. That's how messed up things are right now - the real outrage wasn't over the fact that 50% of black youth drop out of high school but rather that Cosby had the audacity to say it in front of whites.

b)FF may get shot down by whiny liberals for making similar comments, but would he have been listened to by those who need to hear? Rationality has always had a poor correlation with effectiveness.

It wouldn't matter - I'm white. In America, a white person cannot comment on black culture. Anyone who does risks political, economic or professional suicide. You can't even begin to imagine how damaging the "race card" is in this country. People bend over backwards to prove that they aren't racist. It's absolutely disgusting.

edit: As for the "N word" - there are words in the English language that simply should never be used. I don't support banning the use of the word nigger (e.g. banning Huck Finn or re-writing it) but it should never be used outside of a literary and educational context. By anyone. Period.

157. That's it. Texas really is doomed.

Comment #186007 by FightingFalcon on May 29, 2008 at 10:51 am

Here is the liberal double standard right here... if I stood up and said that, I would be tarred and feathered as a racist. But Bill Cosby and Chris Rock can say it. It is either true or it isn't, it doesn't matter who says it. So if I stand up and say this and its true and blacks get mad, they are the racists not me. They have a double standard for speech, whites are prohibited from commenting on black society. But of course blacks can ramble on and on about white society.

The entire time I was watching the Chris Rock video that Cowlyn linked to, I was thinking "What if a white person made this same exact speech?" Because a black man is saying it, it's OK and people can laugh at it. If a white person says it, he/she would probably be lynched after about 30 seconds.

We'll never have a serious discussion on race in America if the only people allowed to comment on black, white, Asian, Latino, etc. culture are people of that culture only. Since when did the color of a person's skin affect whether their statement is true or not?

158. That's it. Texas really is doomed.

Comment #185991 by FightingFalcon on May 29, 2008 at 10:18 am

You don't have the "obligation" you have the moral compulsion to do so. I don't want to see a poor person dying in the street, I really don't. That isn't fair, and it isn't civilized. I am WILLING to sacrifice some tax money to make sure people have the right to "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness".

Well then dude, by all means feel free to take YOUR money and donate it to a charity of YOUR choice that YOU feel helps out people who need health care coverage. I know for a fact that there are charities out there in America that cater toward Americans who can't afford health care on their own.

You might think you have a moral compulsion but I don't. Why should your morals reach into MY wallet and steal MY money?

My philosophy is very simple - everyone has the right to do as they please so long as they don't interfere with the rights and happiness of others. Everyone who feels a moral compulsion to take care of others can by all means donate their time and money to charities, as I do as well. What I am vehemently against is the government stealing my money without any justification and spending it on what they feel is necessary. They do not have that power anywhere in the Constitution.

Now if I can get back to agreeing with you. You spoke of Katrina victims. Let's not beat around the bush here, those were predominately African Americans. There is a problem in African American society and culture. They are not taking care of business for themselves, and expend great energy on blaming others, this example you provide is evidence of that problem extending to all facets of life. Like I said, if you gave a person $1,000 per month in cash to buy health care, but didn't force them to buy it, would they buy it of their own volition? Doubtful. And if you force them to buy it, you are running a Stalinist style aparatus.

I agree that there is definitely something going on in the black (I won't use the term African American) community. When upwards of 70% of black children are born out of wedlock and 50% drop out of high school, there is a serious problem going on. You can't blame that on racism, slavery, white guilt, etc. There was a good article in The Economist last month about how little education is valued in the black community. They did a study and proved that the more educated a black child was, the less popular he was in school and the less friends he had. They actually had quotes from black children who thought it was "cool" to reject school. Some real black leaders (not Al Sharpton) need to stand up and tell these people to get their act together. Stop listening to rap and go to school. I wish Obama would say that but he's too afraid of losing the precious black vote.

Like I said, if you gave a person $1,000 per month in cash to buy health care, but didn't force them to buy it, would they buy it of their own volition?

Hell no they wouldn't! I'll tell you why - ever hear people around Tax Refund season who are actually excited to get a refund? Whenever I calmly explain to them that a tax refund is basically an interest free loan that you give to the government, the response is "Yea but if I had that money I would have spent it anyway and not invested it." Ugh....the idiocy of some people!

159. That's it. Texas really is doomed.

Comment #185980 by FightingFalcon on May 29, 2008 at 9:41 am

There's a lot of BS on this thread about how bad universal healthcare is. Try being uninsurable - through any provider, and requiring a replacement aorta due to an untreatable genetic disorder, before you start bullshitting on this subject. My sister's quite happy for things to be just as they are, thank you very much. And funnily enough, so am I.

If you wanna talk bullshit, let's talk about the argument that there are people in the developed Western world that can't afford health care. In America, if you have to pay for health care completely on your own (which is rare since most jobs cover part, most or all of the cost) you can still get out-of-pocket coverage for several hundred dollars a month. You're telling me that there are people in this world who can't afford to cut out some luxury items in favor of health care coverage? Or do they skimp on health care but still buy the flat screen TVs and just hope that they never get sick? Why is it that Hurricane Katrina victims took their several hundred dollar checks from the US taxpayers and bought all sorts of luxury goods with them? Why do I have any responsibility to pay for the health care of others?

You know what will drive health care costs up more than anything else? A government-run monopoly. Monopolies have no one to answer to and no incentive to lower costs. What the health care industry in America needs is not more government control - it needs absolutely zero government control. If we open up the health care industry and give people complete freedom to choose plans, doctors, hospitals, etc. then competition will lower the prices of health care down to a cost that all Americans will be able to afford.

edit: Not to mention that it's easy for Europeans to have lower health care costs than Americans when you don't respect the patents of our drug companies, as I stated earlier.

You say that you and your sister are happy with government-run health care - I just hope you don't require a highly technical surgical procedure that puts you on a waiting list where you will never see a doctor. Are you also happy knowing that the amount of money that you give to the government in additional taxes could have easily paid for a private insurance program that would have been much more efficient?

The emergency room at a hospital won't turn someone away.

No, but if they're severely overcrowded it doesn't mean that you'll get treated right away (or in time) either.

I need to be convinced that the health care system used in a country of 10 million people can work in a country of 300 million. When people get really really sick, anywhere in the world, they fly to the united states for treatment, not belgium

Probably because quality doctors want to work in a country that still rewards individual achievement and skill.

My vote is that people really do have the right to be kept alive, so there must be a way to solve that without getting the government to nationalize a huge industry.

Sorry, but I don't believe in "rights" that are contingent upon someone else paying for them. A "right" can't deny another person their fundamental right of property.

Those who can't afford health care should have it subsidized by the government.

What you really meant to say was, "Those who can't afford health care should have it subsidized by other taxpayers." News flash: the government has no money of its own. It has to come from somewhere else, e.g. American citizens. Remind me why I have any obligation to pay for a complete stranger's health care?

160. That's it. Texas really is doomed.

Comment #185946 by FightingFalcon on May 29, 2008 at 7:28 am

Liberty was to be paramount, above all else. I appreciate that and I like it. And yes, people were expected to be ultra-responsible for their own lot. As the colonists were ultimately responsible for their own lot in a new land.

Unfortunately, the next four years bode very ill for us who care about true freedom, e.g. freedom from government interference in our lives. Both McCain and Obama gave speeches recently about how Americans should adopt a "collective society" where the ultimate goal shouldn't be personal glory but rather sacrifice and service to others. It's as if I'm reading Atlas Shrugged all over again but this time it's not a work of fiction.

One has to answer this for themselves before they thunder on about the evil American private health care system. And let's not forget that the ultra-capitalist model in the US (in terms of health care and pharma) is what provides the drugs that other governments subsidize for their own people. If that goes away here, you can kiss medical innovation good bye.

American companies spend billions of dollars and years of research on prescription drugs only to have non-American courts reject its patent outside of America and then allow any company to mass produce the drug. Yet we're the assholes because we want to reward companies for hard work and sound investments...

What your dear friend does not understand is that no government that I can think of, in all of history, has ever claimed for itself a power that it later relinquished.

Never have and never will. Governments do not give power back to the people once they forcefully steal it from them.

161. That's it. Texas really is doomed.

Comment #185939 by FightingFalcon on May 29, 2008 at 7:00 am

but when a company can pollute your air or water and get away with it, and you can literally die because you can't afford to see a doctor, then I wouldn't call that "freedom".

I guess every single country in the world is a dictatorship then becuase EVERY country in the world has factories that pollute the environment. "Get away" with pollution? It's pretty ironic that you posted that comment while using a computer that came from a pollution-producing factory.

Honestly, do you think before you post? Or do you just throw random shit out there?

As for national health care:

http://www.torontosun.com/News/TorontoAndGTA/2008/05/23/5646336-sun.html

Apparently it's not all it's cracked up to be. I'll take my paid health care, thank you very much.

162. Probe lands on Mars, NASA says

Comment #185894 by FightingFalcon on May 29, 2008 at 1:58 am

Beeline - I appreciate your comments a lot. Thank you for understanding the diversity of America and the fact that we can have differing and multiple opinions over there. Why that fact is so hard for many people to understand I have no idea.

ey are generalising massively and disproportionately, largely, as you say, from their ignorance, and probably for snobbish effect.

I think the snobbish factor is extremely important - on both sides, unfortunately. The ironic thing though is that this snobbery typically comes from people who have never been to America/Europe or went there once and had a bad experience. I have friends who went to France once, had a bad experience, and therefore hate the entire country. I just don't understand that logic at all.

There are honestly Americans who enjoy news stories about the EU Constitution falling apart and there are Europeans who enjoy watching the dollar fall and the American economy slow down - never appreciating the fact that our economies are all tied together and therefore it effects them as well. Or that a strong Europe benefits America more than a weak and divided one does.

Regardless of the policies of our governments, I thought that we were all allies? That we share a common heritage and common belief in freedom? France and Germany are two of my favorite countries to visit and I have friends back in America who are floored that I can love two countries that opposed our invasion of Iraq. I'm not really sure how to respond to them. I'm not sure what one thing has to do with the other.

OK I'm afraid of going off on a tangent here so I'll just end it there.

163. That's it. Texas really is doomed.

Comment #185892 by FightingFalcon on May 29, 2008 at 1:46 am

What I don't get is all this hypersensitivity over "knocking" a state or the country or a portion of the people who live there. Why should any of those things be immune from criticism or ridicule, especially if they are dragging us in an anti-progressive direction?

I didn't take offense at your comments on Texas. I was simply responding to what I saw as an ignorant comment, which you now claim was a joke. I'm not defending the state of Texas or its policies - what I'm defending are the people who inhabit the state and have made tremendous contributions to the sciences.

Do you think a gay couple has it easier in Dallas or in Malmo Sweden? Do you think a stem-cell researcher has an easier time getting their work supported in Louisville Kentucy or in Geneva, Switzerland? Do you think an Atheist faces more discrimination in Chattanooga, TN or in Frankfurt, Germany? Do you think a single mom who doesn't go to church is judged more harshly in Laramie, Wyoming or Marseilles, France? Do you think a black man dating a white woman has an easier time in Montgomery, Alabama or Toronto, Canada? Do you think someone who has cancer and wants to smoke pot so they can crave food in spite of the nausea brought on by chemotherapy has an easier time in the Netherlands or here? Just how free are we, exactly?

The answer to all of those questions is an empatheic "Yes". Certainly the American government steals our money and spies on its citizens to a certain extent but not nearly as bad as European countries do. OK so an Atheist is looked down upon in certain states and inter-racial dating is still a taboo in certain southern states but who cares? Are they still allowed to pursue their dreams? For the most part, yes they are.

Contrast that with Europe where the government steals more than half of your money, their cities are covered with CCTV cameras and citizens can be hauled into court for making "offensive" comments. If you think Europe is more free than America than you need to seriously reconsider what it means to be free. You can have all the inter-racial dating in the world but it won't mean anything when the government is involved in every aspect of your life and constantly steals your money for worthless welfare schemes.

You guys can be proud because of the lines somebody redrew on a map over what was originally Native American land, or because of a piece of paper that says we have freedoms even though it originally only gave white men those freedoms, but the fact that countries which don't have our constitution are in many ways more free than we are should give you pause.

I don't even know what to say to this. So you would be equally as proud (e.g. you'd have no pride) of your country if you lived in Saudi Arabia as you would if you lived in America? If you really think boundary lines are meaningless and all countries are the same, go live in Africa or the Middle East for as long as you've lived in America. Let me know how that works out for you.

Go to Morocco and openly criticize the monarchy. Go to Saudi and openly preach Atheism. Go to Turkey and try to get The God Delusion published. Go to Canada and make offensive comments about Muslims.

Do all of those things and then come back to America and do the same. Then talk to me about pride in your nation. I've had to experience what it's like to have absolutely all of your freedoms taken away - have you? Try that on a small scale and then maybe you'll appreciate what it means to live in a free country more than you do now.

164. That's it. Texas really is doomed.

Comment #185788 by FightingFalcon on May 28, 2008 at 2:20 pm

I laughed pretty hard when I saw this. I have an analogy....

Glad I wasn't the only one who laughed at that one.

I'm wondering if Teratornis posts from work or at home? Who honestly has that much time to write essays with each and every reply?

165. That's it. Texas really is doomed.

Comment #185778 by FightingFalcon on May 28, 2008 at 1:51 pm

Apparently nobody in your office has heard of JERSEY COWS. ;) If you ask me, they've been listening to too much Carlin. "What do they call it? The Garden State? Heh, sure. If you're growing smokestacks, YES!"

What in Jupiter's name are the Jersey Cows lol =)

166. That's it. Texas really is doomed.

Comment #185777 by FightingFalcon on May 28, 2008 at 1:49 pm

BTW, who gives a shit where someone is from on a map? I think it's better to have pride in personal accomplishments, as opposed to some random location you were born in and had no say over. You like Jersey? Great, fucking congratulations, let's give you a trophy. I like NYC. Let's give me a trophy too.

I know Atheists are typically champions of this whole "accidental birth" garbage but I don't believe any of it. I take a lot of pride in my state and my country. I take so much pride in my Constitution that I'm willing to lay my life down for it. Freedom wouldn't exist unless there were people who believed in it so much that they stand ready to make the ultimate sacrifice in its defense. So yea, I take pride in my country and the ideas behind it. So sue me.

Let me know how your thoroughly convincing arguments of "world citizenship" turn out when you're face-to-face with an enemy that really doesn't give a shit about your universal brotherhood ideas.

167. Mark Steyn vs. the 'Sock Puppets'

Comment #185775 by FightingFalcon on May 28, 2008 at 1:40 pm

I'm not your buddy, guy!

I'm not your guy, friend!

Cowlyn:

Dude....using the Aston Kutcher "burn" icon again? Twice in one day?

Switch it up a bit =)

168. Mark Steyn vs. the 'Sock Puppets'

Comment #185719 by FightingFalcon on May 28, 2008 at 11:07 am

So while researching the Canadian Humans Rights Commission, I found this on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Human_Rights_Commission#Section_13.1_of_the_Human_Rights_Act

The greatest controversy regarding the HRC's practices comes from its enforcement of Section 13.1 of Canada's Human Rights Act, which states that it is discriminatory to communicate by phone or Internet any material "that is likely to expose a person or persons to hatred or contempt."

Wow - that doesn't sound like something I would expect in any free society. It's discriminatory if you talk about material that is likely to expose a person to hatred or contempt? Does free speech even exist?

The article goes on to talk about how that section of the law is being challenged and I certainly hope it is overturned. I love Canada and I would hate to see free speech disappear in the name of political correctness.

169. Mark Steyn vs. the 'Sock Puppets'

Comment #185716 by FightingFalcon on May 28, 2008 at 10:58 am

I thought Canada was a very open minded sort of place.

It is. See, Canada and parts of Europe have moved so far to the left that they are now all the way on the far right. Could any country that believes in free speech actually have something called the Human Rights Commission where a person can be brought to trial simply for offending others?

Canada and Europe are so incredibly tolerant that they crush any dissent against tolerance by force. The irony is certainly not lost on me.

170. That's it. Texas really is doomed.

Comment #185691 by FightingFalcon on May 28, 2008 at 10:04 am

I'm sorry...I actually like Jersey...I just couldn't pass up a gimme like that. Hope you don't mind. :)

Haha no worries man...we had a pretty long discussion in my office today as to why Jersey is called the Garden State. My co-workers refused to believe that Jersey has farms. I tried telling them that we have a ton of farms (not to mention the Shore) but they wouldn't listen.

Besides, people who aren't from Jersey are just jealous. That state I WILL defend with my life =)

171. Probe lands on Mars, NASA says

Comment #185682 by FightingFalcon on May 28, 2008 at 9:55 am

^^ Yea, I get what you're saying. I guess ultimately I'm just sick and tired of seeing post after post talk about how America is going down the shitter because religious nut jobs have taken over our country. These comments are made especially by Europeans who - many of them - haven't even been to America but just read the articles that are posted here. Hell, I live in the UK but wouldn't be arrogant enough to try and assume that I know as much about their country/culture as someone who was actually born here.

I'm sympathetic to the goals of most of the posters here (except for the ones who want religion gone completely) but I simply can't get past the constant insinuations that America is a backward nation of idiots. Especially in a thread like this one, that continues to show how far advanced we are scientifically.

172. That's it. Texas really is doomed.

Comment #185677 by FightingFalcon on May 28, 2008 at 9:49 am

Perhaps your hypersensitivity to criticism of your home state

Dude I'm from New Jersey. I'm not a cowboy, not a Republican, not a Christian, etc. Where in this thread did I even say I'm from Texas?

I'm not defending Texas or its policies. I simply hate generalizations made by people who have no idea what they're talking about....

Fine - it was a joke. Before this thread becomes a pissing match, let's just move on.

173. That's it. Texas really is doomed.

Comment #185654 by FightingFalcon on May 28, 2008 at 9:10 am

Never been to SXSW but Austin itself is an awesome city. Definitely one of the best college towns that I've ever drank in. Kinda boring/weird during the day but at night it's awesome. I went there two months ago and I think we hit at least 15 bars/clubs =)

174. That's it. Texas really is doomed.

Comment #185625 by FightingFalcon on May 28, 2008 at 8:03 am

Give Texas back to Mexico. It belonged to them in the first place, and all Texas has done since we stole it was to give America (and the world) multiple shitty Presidents, and racist xenophobic rednecks who hate Mexicans but go on and on about how much they love Mexican food, and are so dumb they think people from Puerto Rico are immigrants.

You were the one who made this comment. Do you have what "all" means, or do I have to spell it out for you?

Surely someone of your superior intellect can understand what the word "all" implies.

edit: Nevermind the medical and technological centers, NASA, etc. that Texas has provided. "All" they have done is provide us with racist rednecks.

Your words. Not mine.

175. That's it. Texas really is doomed.

Comment #185545 by FightingFalcon on May 28, 2008 at 3:48 am

Mr. Falcon, if you genuinely think I'm serious that we should give Texas back to Mexico, then you are a moron. I made what is called a joke

If you have any workable solutions for changing Texas from the consistently right-wing immigrant bashing evolution hating execution-loving bad-president producing state that it is, let's hear it. In the meantime, I'm going to continue to rightfully criticize them and the rest of the south for the majority of them that push their ignorance on others.

In the same post! Certainly doesn't sound like you're joking about TX being full of nothing but racist rednecks and contributing nothing to America. They might be xenophobic racists but you are an ignorant bigot. Fair trade off I guess.

I think it's worthwhile to find out more about the situation and if it is as bad as it sounds, then it's worthwhile to make sure McElroy and his cronies know they're going to face a lot of opposition and that people don't want their theocracy, which is what it seems Fighting Falcon is taking steps towards doing.

WTF? Just because I don't support your opinion I'm all-of-a-sudden a Theist who supports Theocracy?

The biggest man-made bird-killing technology - by far - is the motor vehicle.

There it is - my daily chuckle provided by Teratornis.

Fighting Falcon? I'm going to cut you a break and assume you're not trolling, this time. But just this once.

Awww, you're gonna cut me a break? Gee, thanks! I wouldn't want you to get all nasty over the internet! ...

How the hell am I trolling, just because I don't flip out over a news story like this? Sorry that I don't foam at the mouth everytime a Theist does something stupid. If I did that, I'd surely die of a heart attack very soon.

No mate, those are two examples out of many. I wasn't about to take a photo of every weird thing I saw or every one of the many, many crazed church signs and other examples of excessive religious nutbaggery. I just posted those two as cute examples of the wider situation I observed. Ya think I should have linked a hundred? Would that have been essential to make my point for you? Maybe 150? 200? How many pictures does it take for you to believe someone's claim?

Sorry that I don't share the arrogance of some Atheists here (e.g. you) who like to act that their shit doesn't stink just because they've reached the Enlightenment of Atheism. OK, so the South is generally more religious than the rest of the country and they typically have lower education standards than other parts of the country (although not lower than places like DC). So that makes them primitive and backward? Did you see anyone walking on all fours down there, too?

Well, it's not a hard and fast rule. As you are illustrating.

O snap! Burn! I don't know how I'll fall asleep tonight...

Mr. Cockfight

Really? Back in 2nd grade, are we?

176. Car dealership advert tells atheists to 'shut up'

Comment #185542 by FightingFalcon on May 28, 2008 at 3:38 am

This is America - where we are free to spend our money where we want. Or don't want...

Honestly, what type of businessman runs an advert that offends at least 14% of the population? They don't gain any business by running that ad, but they certainly lose some.

177. Louisiana's latest creationism bill moves to House floor

Comment #185541 by FightingFalcon on May 28, 2008 at 3:35 am

Now this is something that we should be concentrating on. I'll write my letters but as a New Jersey resident currently living in the UK, I doubt it'll mean anything.

178. That's it. Texas really is doomed.

Comment #185333 by FightingFalcon on May 27, 2008 at 1:50 pm

I am mystified that no US citizen here has proposed some sort of action, even if only soliciting complaint e-mails. The, "Oh its a glitch. It'll fix itself soon enough" seems curiously passive.

Do we have contact info for these individuals? I honestly haven't even clicked on the article itself, just read what was posted here. Tomorrow if I get a chance I'll look around for contact information.

Certainly I'm not suggesting that we do nothing. I think e-mailing McLeroy himself is completely useless but perhaps the school board members could be persuaded.

I do, however, want more information. Like what aspect of science will be addressed in the next review and when that review will take place.

Hell, I'm still waiting to hear what type of changes were made to the English curriculum. This whole article is about how the English standards were changed but it never mentions how and in what capacity. No use getting all excited about something that we don't even have all the information on.

179. That's it. Texas really is doomed.

Comment #185293 by FightingFalcon on May 27, 2008 at 11:31 am

Although Fighting Falcon claims in comment 44 that in the North East, "religion is the exception rather than the rule, up there" I can tell you that as a life-long Massachusetts resident, I don't see any decline in religion here. Boston Catholics have suffered over the clergy abuse scandal but did it shake their faith in God? The Moslems have just finished building a huge, expensive new mosque in Boston. They're going strong. The various types of Protestants in this region may take a more subtle approach than the ones in the south, so I hear, but they haven't given any ground, so to speak and they've enjoyed a strong, steady influence in this region since they got off the boat here 388 years ago. Sad to say, I have yet to meet even 1 self declared atheist in the flesh.

The state that brought us gay marriage is controlled by religion? Hardly.

Again - try to retain perspective here. You may have not met any Atheists but that's probably because we make up a pretty small part of the population, even in the liberal Northeast.

180. That's it. Texas really is doomed.

Comment #185245 by FightingFalcon on May 27, 2008 at 8:57 am

While I agree that we are "diverse nation of diverse opinion," I think you should tone down the knee-jerk patriotism a bit.

It's not knee-jerk patriotism. I object to hysteria of any kind and am only concerned with what is objectively true. If this exact story occured in the UK, I wouldn't be screaming about the end of the British school system. I would have the same exact reaction that I have here.

I live in the rural US South and obviously not everybody is a gun-toting, right-wing racist Bible thumper -- but let's face it, the percentage is much higher in the South than, say, Massachusetts. My neighbors are very friendly, but I wouldn't want them making educational policy.

No objections here. But obviously you should be able to tell the difference between your statement that individuals are more likely to be religious and supportive of gun rights in TX with a statement from previous posters about how Texas has produced nothing but racist bigots, as another posted mentioned. That's my real objection. Hell, I'm not even from the South or Texas. I hate the Confederacy and I'm not a huge fan of the South. But I'm not going to sit by and watch someone make completely ignorant statements about it. I was just in TX for 4 months and while I did see a much higher percentage of religious individuals, I also saw aspects of a modern, secular society that you'd see anywhere else in America.

This particular story from Texas may not be the end of the world, but it doesn't deserve to be minimized: the Christian Right's strategy seems to be "death by a thousand paper cuts." Each of these incidences is indeed a threat to secularism and our tradition of church-state separation.

Of course, we should oppose people like McLeroy and the school board that supported him. We should oppose them on the grounds of trying to ram through educational standards but that's it. We don't know the quality of the standards that were changed. We can't argue that he'll single-handedly destroy scientific education in TX. I will never resort to hysterics to prove a point. That's what religious nut jobs do a la crying about persecution in a country where they make up the overwhelming majority.

Having said that I doubt that the most obvious expression of either of these would penetrate your diamond hard nationalism.

If someone made a generalized, bigoted and ignorant statement about NZ, I would of course be right there to set them straight. This has nothing to do with nationalism.

181. Probe lands on Mars, NASA says

Comment #185182 by FightingFalcon on May 27, 2008 at 6:45 am

Er, the American education system IS literally being taken over by evangelical Christians.

The American education system? Or individual towns in rural TX, Florida, Pennsylvania, Georgia, etc? I find it ironic that you mention their taking over of school boards considering the reaction in Dover, PA when the school board attempted to introduce ID.

although thankfully they've mostly been squashed because enough people are 'bitching' to know what the alternative (doing nothing) means: ending up with an even more religious state where totalitarian control is the norm.

I doubt any of secularism's victories were the products of absolute hysteria. Secularism won in Dover, PA and Georgia (the so-called "theory of evolution" stickers case) because of rational arguments for why science should be favored over religious hysteria. I guarantee you that if we oppose religious hysteria with hysteria of our own, the general public will side with religion. We need to oppose religion with rational arguments backed up with scientific evidence. Getting on the loud speaker and crying that America is doomed unless we reject all public aspects of religion will get us no where. We'll sound just as crazy as the people we oppose.

We both want the same outcome - we just have different approaches.

182. That's it. Texas really is doomed.

Comment #185177 by FightingFalcon on May 27, 2008 at 6:32 am

As for religion in the US: when more than 80% of the population strongly believes in a personal god, this will have influence on the direction a country moves in. Hopefully American atheists will one day roam free as we can here!

You act as though American Atheists are locked up in a closet and can't walk freely in the streets...

Honestly, have some of you even been to America?

The American south is not only strange and primitive it is bigoted, racist, segregationist, separatist and still fighting the civil war.

Really FF your sweeping statements about the US are as irational as those you accuse others of.

This post has truly left me speechless. You make an ignorant and bigoted comment about the ENTIRE south and claim that I make sweeping statements?

Pray do tell, what sweeping statements about the US have I made here? Other than saying that we are a diverse nation of diverse opinion.

183. That's it. Texas really is doomed.

Comment #185175 by FightingFalcon on May 27, 2008 at 6:29 am

I must say I agree with you on some points FightingFalcon, especially on the rationality of atheists. But I also think you are trivializing the problem somewhat. Just because evangelism and opposition to science is nothing new doesn't mean it's not a threat to the US. When the boards of education are controlled by anti-scientific people the consequences in twenty years may be larger than you think now. As long as the majority of american states are not controlled by these people it might not be a problem, but what if it spreads? Apathy is certainly not a solution (although i guess that was not your suggestion either). Secularists and rationalists must keep fighting this with every available weapon.

I am certainly disturbed by this story and certainly the people in this district should be as well.

However, let's put the story in perspective. What new standards were decided upon? Certainly there is a case to be made that the standards were changed without proper debate and consent. We also know that science is up for debate next - supposedly. So tell me again, why should I be freaking out? How the hell could anyone view this story as the end of the American education system? One School Board president changes English standards and suddenly every school in America is on the verge of collapse? Give me a freaking break. This absolute hysteria needs to stop. No one will take us seriously if we cry wolf everytime that secularism is threatened.

Doom and Gloom. Rubbish.

Sorry, no. There are too many rational people in the US to "[l]et this effect all of us."
There is too much money invested in science based technology and education to let this sort of thing have a major effect on the R&D for large corps.

All that will happen is that there will be yet another trial (think Dover) in which the religious "pushers" will be put back in their box.

I see this more of desperation, rather that insidious behaviour. It's only when the constitution is changed or if it's a supreme court ruling, that the peoples of the United States require to start thinking "Doom and Gloom."

Holy crap! Someone else who is able to approach this article and come up with a rational response - Bravo, Sir!

184. That's it. Texas really is doomed.

Comment #185084 by FightingFalcon on May 26, 2008 at 10:05 pm

I'm currently on a cross-country road trip of the USA. Two days ago I drove across the Texas panhandle. I saw this.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3004/2526411952_5d34cc66e5_b.jpg

Texas, Oklahoma, Missouri... hell, I saw this in Missouri.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2044/2526411732_8f67d89488_b.jpg

The flat lower middle part of America is very strange and very primitive, in some ways.

You saw a large cross in TX and a Christian performing arts center in MO and therefore the logical conclusion is that the American South is strange and primitive?

Honestly, I thought Atheists were the ones who were supposed to be rational...

edit: You know, I saw a huge cathedral in London. Those Londoners sure are religious fanatics...

185. Probe lands on Mars, NASA says

Comment #185076 by FightingFalcon on May 26, 2008 at 9:27 pm

I whole heartedly agree. I have since moved from that area (Georgia) back home (New Hampshire) and have found a much different view of science. I do not think free thought can ever die, just as democracy never will. But this is only because I trust people will stand guard against such a happening. Ignoring the people who preach nonsense will bite us in the end. But I agree that hysteria is uncalled for. Time is on our side, being immune to rapture and end times.

I'm just afraid of the Atheist lobby becoming about as relevant and sane as the environmental lobby. That is, completely irrelevant and absolutely insane. Eco-Nazis have spouted their hysterical warnings about imminent disaster on Earth for years now and yet we're still fine. If Atheists adopt similar tactics and try to argue that America will fall apart if we don't embrace secularism, then we're gonna have a lot of questions to answer years down the road when America is still alive and well with evangelical Christians still existing in large #s.

Certainly we shouldn't ignore religious hysteria but let's not replace it with our own hysteria. A return to sanity would be much appreciated.

I know the argument that "Well, if we don't adopt secularism we may, in some distant future, effect our childrens' education" doesn't sell as many books as "Adopt Atheism NOW or the American education system will die in a few years!!" but I'm not concerned with the book sales of certain authors...

186. That's it. Texas really is doomed.

Comment #185073 by FightingFalcon on May 26, 2008 at 9:19 pm

Like I said, USA is systematically turning into a third world joke-country, very sad....

What the fuck? A third world joke-country? Have you ever even been to America, asshole?

Better yet, have you been to a third world country? Having lived in America and visited Africa several times, I can say with confidence that America is not in any way coming close to a third world country.

According to Wikipedia, Texas is the 2nd largest State in both area and population. With 23.9 million people under an educational curriculum such as is described above, I don't consider this to be insignificant. Add on to that any other states with similar policies and, well, you get the picture.

Texas has been known for its religious conservatism for many, many years. I can't even remember the last time that Texas went Democrat in any state-wide election. When it comes to the fight against religious evangelicals, I consider TX to be way off limits. It would be akin to religious nut-jobs trying to take over Hollywood.

As for the fundies and conservative Republicans that have had an 8 year hey-day in this country deciding to wither and retreat, I see no evidence of this. They are firmly entrenched and pushing back hard against the secularists every day. The articles posted on this website are evidence enough of that. If you're counting on the Democrats to crush them, don't hold your breath waiting. They've put on a poor show of it so far.

Of course they are pushing back against secularists, but this fight is nothing new. It's only getting headlines because secularists are finally standing up for what we believe in. This would have been a non-issue decades ago when religion's place in society was simply a given.

The articles posted on this website are enough to convince any non-American that the US is about to turn into the Christian version of Iran but trust me, it's not like that. I lived in the North East of America for 21 years and religion is the exception, rather than the rule, up there. I can't stress enough how diverse America is and I get really god damn offended when people try to throw us all together.

As for Democrats - they've had a poor showing because they're all incompetent morons. But even they can't screw up this election. They might lose the presidency because Obama is the epitome of failed policies but they are guaranteed to pick up several more seats in both houses of Congress.

Fighting Falcon says that McBush, I mean McCain, is no evangelical. True. But he'll kiss up to anyone he needs, even the fundies at Liberty U.

How is this any different from any politician in America? Did you see Hillary's speech about how she has always felt the presence of the Holy Spirit in her life? Anything to get the sheep excited...

Give Texas back to Mexico. It belonged to them in the first place, and all Texas has done since we stole it was to give America (and the world) multiple shitty Presidents, and racist xenophobic rednecks who hate Mexicans but go on and on about how much they love Mexican food, and are so dumb they think people from Puerto Rico are immigrants.

My brother-in-law's girlfriend is from Dallas. She keeps telling us how she has friends who are skinheads, and they're not actually racist, they just fight for rights for white people, and all the KKK really stood for was "state's rights". Education took a back seat to willful ignorance and idiocy in Texas a long time ago. Please Mexico, please take Texas back, pretty pretty please?

Xenophobia and racism is bad but so is bigoted ignorance.

Have you ever been to TX? Or are you just basing all of your opinions off of what your brother-in-law's girlfriend's friends do?

Having just lived in San Antonio for four months, I can say with confidence that you have no clue what you're talking about. I absolutely disdain generalizations that have zero backing to them. Go live in TX and then feel free to spout your ignorant views.

187. That's it. Texas really is doomed.

Comment #184922 by FightingFalcon on May 26, 2008 at 12:30 pm

But the move into politics by the religious right is.

Not really. The Moral Majority was founded back in 1979 and I doubt any Europeans were prophesying the end of secular America as we know it back then.

I believe it was either Time Magazine or CNN that had a good article on the religious right not too long ago, which is surprising considering how tabloid-esque both sources are. They discussed how evangelical Christianity has always supported the Republican Party but only recently have they demanded a voice in the direction of the party. That voice, thankfully, is quickly coming to an end. John McCain is no evangelical and once President Bush leaves the White House, evangelicals will lose their patronage. I can't stress enough how important the pulpit of the White House can be in directing American policy. Republican membership is at an all-time low not just because of the war in Iraq but also because many former Republicans (myself included) have left the party after we watched evangelicals take over the party. CNN/Time noted how many Republicans reacted with horror when evangelicals didn't just vote for Republicans but now demanded an active voice in the party.

I have said on this board many times (and will continue to say) that I firmly believe we will see a tremendous turn around in America once President Bush leaves office. Especially if a Democrat wins the presidency, as they are already poised to pick up many seats in Congress as well. Once evangelicals lose their patronage in the Republican Party, we will return to normalcy. Once the Republicans get their asses handed to them in November, the socially moderate and fiscally conservative wing of the party *should* take over. At least, that is my hope.

The success of tax-funded "science" projects is irrelevant to the fact that many courses of your commercial lunch are being eaten. Existing businesses (e.g. automotive) are being trashed through complacency.

Well, there's many reasons why the automobile industry in America sucks. Mainly because if you put out a crappy product, no one will buy it. Not to mention dealing with the automotive union.

The company I work for sells technology to the US. A decade ago this was mostly US technology, tweaked. Now at least 50% is pacific rim. (We go where its most advanced.) There is no sign of a let up.

You can thank America's highest corporate tax rate in the industrialized world for that one. We are losing the battle in technological research not because of our religious fanatics but because of our tax policies. Companies don't care about religious nut jobs if there is money to be made. They go where the most tax-friendly policies are and currently they are not in America.

I know better than to point to a government for moral leadership (after Bliar). No, it is the aggregate of the peoples of the US, that by the operation and fairness of their society, demonstrate the power of an enlightened morality.

I think you are focusing on issues that most Americans do not support. I find that many non-Americans continue to confuse the policies of our government with the feelings of our people. President Bush has a ~25% approval rating and Congress has a ~15% approval rating. Take them for what they're worth.

188. The Mind-Altering Role of Incense in Religion

Comment #184885 by FightingFalcon on May 26, 2008 at 10:42 am

Perhaps the effects of incense are so mild as to make this a non-issue.

I would say this is the case. I used to be a Traditional Roman Catholic that favored the use of incense in church. It had no mind altering capabilities but simply relaxed the body and created an environment that helped you concentrate on your relationship with god.

I never thought I was being manipulated by the incense. Certainly I would have noticed any mind-altering capabilities.

189. That's it. Texas really is doomed.

Comment #184884 by FightingFalcon on May 26, 2008 at 10:39 am

Its not just about drifting backwards slowly. Its about not understanding the need to move forward aggressively, given that your competitors in the world are at the point of out-inventing, out-competing and out-smarting you.

I agree completely about the need to move forward aggressively. However, this so-called religious awakening is nothing new in America. Just look at where the Scopes Monkey Trial took place. The term "Bible Belt" is certainly nothing new and we've been living with evangelicals for years. Yet, with all this religious hysteria we've still managed to land three rovers on a distant planet and put a man on the Moon. Trust me - we'll be just fine. There are areas of America where science has always been respected and will continue to do so. We need to stop acting like this religious "take over" of TX is anything new. It's Texas for FSM's sake!

As a Brit I give a damn because I look to the US for moral leadership in the World (despite some serious misgivings about recent performance). China as top nation, for instance, would be a moral disaster until they could actually afford some morals of their own.

I'm not sure what to tell you on that one. Considering how much I loathe our politicians, I think it's foolish to look at any government for inspiration for anything.

190. Probe lands on Mars, NASA says

Comment #184877 by FightingFalcon on May 26, 2008 at 10:22 am

How is it just "lumping together" when presidential candidates can state they don't believe in evolution and nobody cringes? ID has been banned because people payed attention to the movement and invested energy in exposing it for what it is. Great strides are made by those actually rolling up their sleeves and tackling hard issues, not by those trying to deny they exist or shrugging them off or expecting them to magically disappear or solve themselves.

Just because someone is a presidential candidate, that doesn't mean anyone takes them seriously. I mean hell, Al Sharpton has run for president and surely no one takes him seriously. Of the current three candidates, have any of them rejected Evolution? No. So let's stop the hysterics.

ID has been banned because court judges realized in about 10 minutes how ridiculous it was.

All I'm asking for is a return to sanity. We seriously need to drop the hysterics and look at our current situation without resorting to screaming and crying.

191. The Mind-Altering Role of Incense in Religion

Comment #184849 by FightingFalcon on May 26, 2008 at 9:39 am

*Adds incense to my shopping list*

Looks like I'll be picking some up this weekend!

192. That's it. Texas really is doomed.

Comment #184845 by FightingFalcon on May 26, 2008 at 9:37 am

Hey, wasn't GW educated in Texas? 'nuff said

Actually, it was Yale in CT.

193. Probe lands on Mars, NASA says

Comment #184842 by FightingFalcon on May 26, 2008 at 9:36 am

When I was an education major, a professor asked a straight forward question: "Who here thinks that the objective of public education is to help students find, and grow closer to, God?" She then asked all yea's to assemble on one side of the room, and all the nay's on the other. I had one other person on my side, with 21 other students sneering at us from across the room. These same students believed Halloween should be banned from schools, but not Christmas or Easter. A lesser group, but still the majority (I think about 18 to 5) felt evolution had no place in science class, since it "is just a theory, and everybody has theories."

And where did you go to school? I can guarantee you that at my college (George Washington U.) it would have been the exact opposite reaction. America is a large country with diverse opinions - people frequently make the mistake of lumping the entire country together.

From my experience as an American, yes, Christians are attacking science and free thought. Worse, they are waging this war on children; children who will grow up thinking Dinosaurs were friends with Adam and Eve. That is their victory. Are they gaining ground? They sure aren't losing any very fast.

And this is different from the 50s, how? Religion certainly isn't gaining any ground when you consider that school prayer has been banned, ID rejected by every court in the nation, etc. Just a few decades ago, both would have been permitted in any school in the country.

I'm as sympathetic as anyone to the cause of secularization in America but I'm also not going to join the hysterical crowd who believes America is witnessing the end of free thought as we know it. We've made great strides in the past few decades and will continue to do so.

194. That's it. Texas really is doomed.

Comment #184838 by FightingFalcon on May 26, 2008 at 9:30 am

People like Don McLeroy are walking demonstrations at why the US fails in math and science education.

This posted on the same day that NASA lands its third rover on Mars. I love this board....

And I remind you as well that Texas is a major force in determining curricula and textbook sales for the rest of this country. This can affect all of us. All of us.

I certainly hope it's not too late to reverse this damage being done to the educational system in Texas. If not, then we may all be doomed.

The absolute hysteria!!! I thought Eco-Nazis were bad but some Atheists certainly give them a run for their money!

One man in TX is going to destroy the entire American school system? Let's retain some god damned perspective here, people...

195. Probe lands on Mars, NASA says

Comment #184798 by FightingFalcon on May 26, 2008 at 7:36 am

And anyway, there's a time-lag between destroying an educational system and seeing its effects when those children go into work. If we let fundamentalist churchianity get ANY kind of power in governments and education, then those countries will suffer further down the line. It's already happening. Right now.

This is why there's 'bitching' on here. The troops are rallying, or haven't you noticed?

My post is directed more toward Europeans who have never been to America and don't understand it, yet believe everything they read in the media about how the American education system is literally being taken over by evangelical Christians. It's annoying seeing that idea constantly pop up on this board.

196. Probe lands on Mars, NASA says

Comment #184747 by FightingFalcon on May 26, 2008 at 5:29 am

Spirit, Opportunity and now Phoenix.

Anyone wanna bitch and moan about how fundamentalist Christianity has taken over America and destroyed our science programs, as is usually done on this board?

Just more proof that evangelical Christianity isn't nearly as big a problem as some claim and that America continues to lead the world in space exploration.

197. Repulsive but right

Comment #184745 by FightingFalcon on May 26, 2008 at 5:26 am

Diacanu

Hard, but not impossible.

Let them have their fuzzy diluted pantheist god.

But the instant that god tells them to try to ban stemcells, evolution in the classroom, and gay marriage, we can whack it with the proper mallet.

Fuzzy pantheist gods don't do that shit.

And fundies trying to fire up their newfangled cloaking device will inevitably find that version of god unsatisfying, and have to poke their little heads out of the mole hole.

I suppose you are right - but these people still have a vote on Election Day, as much as it pains me to see it. I have a friend who refuses to argue religion with me because he has a personal relationship with god that I can't understand. Never mind that I was a devout Catholic for 20 years and used to use the same argument....

Anyway, these people can still influence politics at the voting booth and they claim complete immunity from any attack on their belief system. It's like trying to nail Jell-O to a wall. My debates with Theists ultimately end up the same way every single time - "Well, I believe in god and nothing you say can change that." UGH!

198. Repulsive but right

Comment #184533 by FightingFalcon on May 25, 2008 at 3:38 pm

He talked of the need for Anglicans to stop obsessing about the Church and about religious doctrine and to embrace a God whose love is, as he put it, profligate.

I'm beginning to see a lot of Theists drag out this argument now. That god is about relationships and not rules. I should be grateful that less people believe in organized religion but at the same time it's very hard to argue against someone whose viewpoint is "I have a personal relationship with god that you can never break."

Yet Hitchens, like Richard Dawkins, has absolutely no knack of persuading those he lambasts. Just like Dawkins at Hay last year, he may be right, but he comes over as deliberately arrogant and sometimes childishly offensive.

I'm afraid the author is right here. Even I can be turned off by some of Hitchens' comments and I vastly prefer Dawkins to be the voice of modern Atheism.

I haven't met anyone who has been persuaded by Hitchens' arguments but I have met several who remain committed Theists due to his arrogance.

199. Five Things Humans No Longer Need

Comment #184297 by FightingFalcon on May 24, 2008 at 11:42 am

Fucking wisdom teeth - being just one month shy of my 23rd birthday, I figured that I'd be safe if my wisdom teeth didn't start hurting me by now.

Then BLAM-O! Last week my entire left side started hurting and I can't eat anything anymore on that side. The dentist can't even see me for three weeks. Bah...at least the procedure is free and gets me three days off of work =)

200. 16% of US science teachers are creationists

Comment #182574 by FightingFalcon on May 20, 2008 at 2:44 pm

First!

US courts have repeatedly decreed that creationism and intelligent design are religion, not science, and have no place in school science classrooms. But no matter what courts and school boards decree, it is up to teachers to put the curriculum into practice.

I'm convinced that some people just want to make a story when there is none.

Teaching Creationism is banned in schools - period.

edit: Bah, Partisan beat me!