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Comment #143770 by mikejswalker on March 14, 2008 at 11:30 am

Paula, no need for 'oh dear', i deserved it. My cynicism get's the better of me sometimes.

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Comment #143739 by mikejswalker on March 14, 2008 at 10:43 am

I was once put a gorilla suit on and walked into Tesco.s. I stood in a corner and started to bawl my eyes out. And do you know, people just laughed. Admittedly the suit was 3 sizes too small, but i do very good gorilla. It's humans that are lacking empathy, not animals. They just laughed the heartless bastards.

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Comment #143694 by mikejswalker on March 14, 2008 at 9:59 am

You want evidence of an animals fear of death, or understanding of it, work in a vet for a year.

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Comment #143657 by mikejswalker on March 14, 2008 at 9:22 am

Walking, running, ducking, diving, hiding, laughing in the labyrinth of that musical brain of yours has been a joy. I wonder what you'll write for the 10k celebration. Merci.

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Comment #143454 by mikejswalker on March 14, 2008 at 6:00 am

!0k? No probs.

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Comment #143393 by mikejswalker on March 14, 2008 at 4:58 am

Congrats Paula. This thread has helped me thru Illness. Wonderful. Thank you all for such stimulating debate.
10k cannot be possible!! Can it?

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Comment #142813 by mikejswalker on March 13, 2008 at 5:51 am

freudian sips.

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Comment #142799 by mikejswalker on March 13, 2008 at 5:34 am

I hope everyone's going to let Paula have the #5k post?
Only if David Robertson gets the 10,000.

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Comment #142790 by mikejswalker on March 13, 2008 at 5:24 am

Evidence.

Debating, changing minds (some hopes) putting a kernel of doubt into someone who is thinking about putting a bible under their 4 year olds pillow is fucking difficult. It's tedious. It's unfunky. It's old, regurgitative, I can't use my wordplay on that quite as creatively, It angers me. And? Get up, wipe the tears of frustration, and talk them down from that burning building. You're not only attempting to save them (metaphorically) but you might be saving those they'll take with them.

Richard M. Back at ya!

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Comment #142684 by mikejswalker on March 13, 2008 at 2:41 am

Depending on the context, asking for evidence about the specifics of bible belief, interpetation, metaphor etc is ok for me as long as it is done in a way that encourages debate. It's the evidence call that kills the conversation dead that i find frustrating. Sometimes when people get hot headed only the anger is remembered. The point is lost. Paula admirably never let's that happen. The point is always alluded to. And that is tiring, frustrating and sometimes exasperating. But it is so, so important. Hopefully we are not here to sharpen claws. We are here to learn and find strategies to lessen the terrible impact of the virulent religions. And more.

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Comment #142552 by mikejswalker on March 12, 2008 at 5:55 pm

Also i can stretch my fingers on the guitar so that i am playing an E on every string. 6 strings all E's.
Just to say, This has been an inspiring day of discussion. Agreement, disagreement, changes of mind and heart, the gamut from A to B. Brilliant. I respect these debates, and the chance to learn from honest people.
Digital-to-matter converters. oh the joy! I'm afraid i would win hands down lorien. I'm ruthless with pies. Not kiddin bout those E's either. Fat cyber scoob? Oh if we'd only had this conversation before i signed the babies birth certificate. great name for a little girl.

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Comment #142545 by mikejswalker on March 12, 2008 at 5:18 pm

how about if we all have a cyber pie fight and really move this baby on to 5000 posts? Shitheads of a camels eyelash.

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Comment #142258 by mikejswalker on March 12, 2008 at 7:50 am

Mike,

type... < blockquote > place text here < /blockquote >Lorien,
happy like a child i am. Thank you.

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Comment #142248 by mikejswalker on March 12, 2008 at 7:32 am

thanks Lorien,
I actually don't know what to do with it once i am in Comment Posting Guidelines. I'm rubbish at this stuff. Help greatly appreciated.

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Comment #142236 by mikejswalker on March 12, 2008 at 7:18 am

Ok fella's iknow this is a ball-ache that you must have explained
a leptonillion times but could someone kindly explain in painful detail how i block-qoute? Merci.

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Comment #142230 by mikejswalker on March 12, 2008 at 7:05 am

Shayyyneq,
Not talking placebo effect. Talking pointing those that can hear, toward books, thoughts, discussions etc, that eventually trickle into
rivers that can burst dams. It happens. Lorien, Paula, and many others are great examples. Not everyone i know patronises the religious. And hardly anyone i know does it in a round the table pub discussion. Cyber discourse can pander to epithets much more readily than eye to eye. But people do patronise. As tho they know the mind of those they patronise. As tho they can hear the cyinical inflections in the voice, in a text. I've done it myself. Gotta watch that.

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Comment #142200 by mikejswalker on March 12, 2008 at 6:30 am

Shayne,
I did get that Y in before you posted i promise.
I totally get the evidence debate. I really do. I understand the quagmire of souping claimed facts and symbolism together. I get that they often morph into each depending on the situation.
But let me ask this, as an open question. Do you think their is the slightest chance of any evidence showing up here? The theistic questions that i feel need exploring more are the ones that propagate, without being aware of that propagation, the inculcation, subtle or otherwise, of the vulnerable.
If this makes us angry, and it should, then we need to find another way of changing that behaviour.
What i am saying here is, admittedly long windedly, the call for evidence, one that you, we, all know is not going to be forthcoming, seems like a rallying cry for the deaf. It's pointless, especially when they have their backs turned away from us. I'm not saying that sometimes it's not a warranted request, but it's a card that sure get's played a lot.

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Comment #142167 by mikejswalker on March 12, 2008 at 5:26 am

What evidence Shayne?

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Comment #142158 by mikejswalker on March 12, 2008 at 5:06 am

Dr Benway,
What Evidence? I'm arrogant enough to say that one is sorted. You are not going to get it. You know it, I know it, and our good friends here, know it. David does not. And he will debate that to his death. So, that said, What now? 'Hey guys, there's a merry-go-round over on fleabytes, let's push it faster!!'
My position is the post to LeeC.

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Comment #142153 by mikejswalker on March 12, 2008 at 4:46 am

LeeC,
I have been interested in this thread from beat one. I have been banging on about the evidence call for some time now. You're right, it does tend to to close the debate. But is that the aim? Is the aim to win that particular argument? Or maybe it's way bigger than that. Do you feel that argument is already won? If ya do, then i'm afraid i agree with Richard M who put it beautifully a few threads back at 4471
The point for me, is to engage in discussion, so that we might eventually weed out the oppression of religion. So that people like David can Believe his story quietly, whilst knocking loudly on the door, along with atheists, of those that use it as an excuse to mentally and physically abuse and torture their fellow human beings.

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Comment #142140 by mikejswalker on March 12, 2008 at 4:08 am

Well, we tried at least. You can lead a horse to water. Ceasefire with gritted teeth. I heard two guys debating the palestine israel conflict this morning. One guy said, '7 years these bombs have been coming' the other guy said, 'this is a natural response'. 7000 thousand bombs in 7 years. I wonder if we could get back to who threw the first stone, would it make a difference to the continuation of the conflict. 'There is definite evidence for who threw the first stone'. Yep, that did it. I feel free of that conflict now.
If we want to save children from being inculcated, indocrinated or just plain robotically wound up to repeat phrases from the bible (Baby Bible bashers), and further, if we want to change the thought processes, that in themselves are indoctrinations, that lead people to threaten the lives of cartoonists (Kurt Westergaard) and Dutch activists who speak out against islam (Ayaan Hirsi Ali) we have to do a fuck of a lot better than "show us the evidence'. Hold back those rockets, let's talk about it over a beer.

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Comment #142031 by mikejswalker on March 11, 2008 at 4:18 pm

4471. Comment #141765 by Richard Morgan on March 11, 2008 at 7:11 am
'I find that repetitions of "Show us the evidence!" rather tiresome, given that NOBODY is expecting any convincing evidence. Not from DR or from any other theist.
I find that in view of that, constantly demanding evidence seems rather childish and, well, undignified.'

I could not agree more. I think it's totally the point. So much is discussed without being a slave to this criteria. In the middle of good debate between all of us, atheists and theists alike, the evidence call sounds positively lame to me. The evidence call does not create a place where debate can formulate new understandings (from both sides). The issue is too important to stop the debate dead in it's tracks with an evidence call. It's a war of attrition. We cannot do it with sledgehammers. If we try and do it that way, people just yell, 'SLEDGEHAMMER'. And that becomes the point.

Mark,
I could warm my hands on that post. Well said sir.

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Comment #141566 by mikejswalker on March 10, 2008 at 4:33 pm

Bradford executive. Sand. Holdsworth. What an improvisation!!
Sorry had to share. Listen if ya get chance. mother of dave!!

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Comment #141554 by mikejswalker on March 10, 2008 at 3:45 pm

4/4 5/8 I see. I spent ages counting different divisions of 13/8! I even had 5/4 and 3/8. Thanks richard.
Dr Benway thanks for your post. Great points. I think the child kicking shins is a fair analogy. But obviously not complete. Not all religionists do that. Some struggle with their belief. Some welcome debate. Some are scared of it. For obvious reasons.
In other words not all deserve our scorn. And if those 3 strikes come our way, i feel it's better to show an example of civility. Having said this, your post, realistically, makes more sense than my naive idealism. But we gotta try. It's just too easy to mock.

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Comment #141164 by mikejswalker on March 10, 2008 at 6:24 am

3 strikes and your out seems strange to me. Why not 4 or 6 or 17? Why three? There's always a trinity sneaking it's way in somehow.
If we were shaped like a triangle, we'd paint a 3 sided god. Who said that? can't remember. Natural to some is impatience to others. This is the problem. We wouldn't treat a child with that kind of justice or contempt. And I think that is what we are dealing with sometimes.
It would be enough to get the oppressive, fear laden, religious bible thumpers to take a breath and really look at themselves. Empathy is the key.
Richard,
Been counting the first few bars of steve's tune. Are ya thinking a 6 followed by a 7 or just 13? Or something else? Intrigued is all. Keep em comin'!!

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Comment #140966 by mikejswalker on March 9, 2008 at 8:54 am

IanG,
Well said.
Epeeist,
Agreed. But don't you get the feeling sometimes that we're trying too hard to kill a dead mule? I'm not sure of this. It's just a feeling i have.

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Comment #140910 by mikejswalker on March 9, 2008 at 5:23 am

Steve,
I have to say this is an area i find fascinating and is part of the reason I see 'show us your evidence' a discussion killer. For me, the argument that a creator is a ridiculous notion was being fought and won in papers like 'The Oracle of Reason' nearly 200 years ago. Tom Paine, Lucretius, Russell et al, were having to argue the athiest case quietly for fear of ridicule, imprisonment, or death way before Hitch Harris or Prof Dawkins. The whole thing is riddled with inconsistency. A religionist has to re-vamp his whole story as the evidence flows in on the timelines of particle physics and more importantly, for me, common sense.
This is a daunting place for a religionist. They try to attack but they wither in the torrential gust of logic and our microscopic dissection of a crumbling argument.
I do think there are those who want to get our back up. But we don't shy away from that either. There are also those who sit back and relax and say "i believe the lord is my saviour because i'm genesisetically pre-disposed and there's bollox all you can do about it so there'.
I feel many here have had a tough time because of religion. There is a history in the robust rebuttals. But some religionists feel they have been saved from abuse and cruelty by the thing that we see as an oppression. Easy to scoff at that one. But an interesting debate is to be had from those 2 opposing views. I think we can act too quickly on our scars. We jump at their defense. The idea that we might learn something from those that hurt us is a tough one to swallow.

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Comment #140847 by mikejswalker on March 8, 2008 at 9:40 pm

'Transmigration of souls'. That's it! Thankyou V.
Richard, Glad to help :) Good luck with the slam.
Insomnia. Thus heaven contemplations.
Heaven.
No dying. No living. No hoping. No coping. No naughty.
No wondering. No wandering. No profanity. No sadness. No loneliness. No need. No want. No fight to get home. No fight to see reason. No reason. No rhyme. No b9 chords. No defects.
No need for Malthus or Lennon or BB king. No blues.
No 'don't go'. No Bipolar. No divorce. No quarks. No durcks.
Hell.
As above.

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Comment #140532 by mikejswalker on March 7, 2008 at 5:14 pm

Richard,
I do indeed see what you mean. I sometimes read his posts positively scouring them for some self mockery or dropping of the cynical tone. I wait in hope. As i wait i think i'll have me a little soar with a comet and an oboe.

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Comment #140528 by mikejswalker on March 7, 2008 at 4:50 pm

Love John Adams. What was the sept 11 piece he wrote? I heard that at the Bridgewater in Manchester. I played some pieces by Mark Anthony Turnage, a young British composer a few years ago. That was also very inspiring. What a wonderful thing to share music.

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Comment #140527 by mikejswalker on March 7, 2008 at 4:40 pm

Richard,
Please don't tell me you just got that together since i sent you my post!! Jesus!
The atonality is reflective of the many battles here with the Siphonaptera. At one point there seems to be salvation. But it's short lived. If there is any royalty to be paid, the money should go to putting the music in an orchestral setting, real strings etc. And the concert should be held in your back garden on a warm summer evening. I'll bring a bottle.

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Comment #140456 by mikejswalker on March 7, 2008 at 11:56 am

Richard,
I can hear many influences. Lovely oboe piece. THere are contemporary classical composers in there (do you know mark anthony turnage?-i think you would find his music interesting) Filmic (is that a word?) John williams etc, even ELP and the like!
Well done. I'll be back to listen to the David Robertson piece!

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Comment #140419 by mikejswalker on March 7, 2008 at 9:25 am

atheist utd v theist divided. football. (soccer). Ball (not pig)
Ref? Own goals? Taking the piss? Find me a bigger bucket.
Quirinus? Biblical inerrancy? Read Bart Ehrman.
Watts the matter aunty? No it isn't, its the embrace of the lepton and the quark. A circle game indeed. A positive and negative that cannot do without each other. What a thread. I cannot resist anymore. I decided to shower. 4100 posts has kept me in the sphere of the great unwashed. Free thought.

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Comment #139852 by mikejswalker on March 6, 2008 at 2:58 pm

diacanu,
Agreed. I'm not really talking about the obvious Robertson's etc. That's a frayed ball hit over a threadbare net. More the quieter believers. They number many. That debate is more interesting because it's more subtle, and much more powerful.

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Comment #139841 by mikejswalker on March 6, 2008 at 2:44 pm

diacanu,
The debate is interesting. You've taken part in it and dismissed many clawsharpeners, It isn't so one dimensional. If we think it's just puppy's covered in chocolate, we're fucked.
What are we to do? We debate.

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Comment #139825 by mikejswalker on March 6, 2008 at 2:29 pm

diacanu,
Not being literal. Totally. Just pointing out that the debate sometimes stops dead at the 'where's the evidence?' juncture.

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Comment #139805 by mikejswalker on March 6, 2008 at 2:14 pm

I think the "show us yer evidence then' comment , sometimes stifles discussion. Hell is shrinking to a cinder. The bible is a badly written joke book riddled with new punch lines on old jokes. But 'I love God' 'prove it', always feels a little naive to me, from both sides.

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Comment #139765 by mikejswalker on March 6, 2008 at 1:22 pm

Thanks Quetz,
yep, 2 days ago, i'm losing my thread. Pun inteneded.

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Comment #139750 by mikejswalker on March 6, 2008 at 1:07 pm

I think clearthinkers post screamed out yesterday. The guys were having quite a conversation about the nature of belief, and spatial mind brain co-ordination, dualism, monism and general ontological debate, which, i have to say, singed my eyebrows off.
Just straight, great honest debate. David came in with the usual stuff and it seemed even more out of place. Actually maybe that was 2 days ago. Nothing since.

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Comment #139689 by mikejswalker on March 6, 2008 at 11:58 am

Suggestion. When things get technical can we have some layman Bertrand Russell type "train from the bank" relativity examples?

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Comment #139257 by mikejswalker on March 5, 2008 at 12:02 pm

I just read thru this last few pages and when i had finished i was completely bald. I have never cross referenced so much in my life and i had to read every cross reference 3 times. It's like the bleedin
N cyclop e' dear brit an icka. My brain is so pissed off with me for even trying. Continue.

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Comment #138681 by mikejswalker on March 4, 2008 at 5:22 pm

Our beliefs are tested at the family table. 'like the hat my dear'
'do i like thumbscrews grandma?' Intellect and truth quiver in the shadow of grandmas'. Truth, Bernard Williams, great book.

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Comment #138668 by mikejswalker on March 4, 2008 at 5:07 pm

Diacanu,
But would you say it? Would ya bollocks.

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Comment #138661 by mikejswalker on March 4, 2008 at 5:03 pm

It's the general tone and feel David. It just feels like it's loaded with cynicism. Also a debate can never really get going because you come in with an initial mega post then fly off to an important meeting. I don't say you can't be busy, it's just difficult to kick these things around when you dip in and out. Brian, Bonzai and others have been discussing topics that i feel would be great to get your views on. It also feels like a good time to pop the stalemate, the merry-go-round. I apolgise if it's a cynicism or anger you don't feel. It just reads like that. I have often applied a feeling to a text message that was not imbued with that feeling. Gotta watch that.

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Comment #138646 by mikejswalker on March 4, 2008 at 4:41 pm

David,
I wish you would post in a more loving manner. If people here annoy you, just turn the other cheek.

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Comment #138643 by mikejswalker on March 4, 2008 at 4:37 pm

SElf deception for sure. But would any of us take it away from her if we could? We know it's self decieving. We know it's a comfort.
But would we say 'that hat is shitty looking grandma'?
Hugh Everett was an amazing guy. BTW.

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Comment #138635 by mikejswalker on March 4, 2008 at 4:24 pm

Brian, agree to a point. Some things are in the eye or ear of the beholder, so whether they have aesthetic value is subjective. The idea that i'm the best at what i do because nobody can replicate it in exactly the same way or it's a true extension of my individuality
is a point worth raising. Also, not all religious people believe to fulfill a need. When Jehovas Witnesses asked my mother what she thought about God She just said 'I love him'. And she meant it from her heart. Think about saying that the last time you felt compelled to say it. That is how she felt, and how many feel.

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Comment #138618 by mikejswalker on March 4, 2008 at 4:00 pm

That emotional pull is a real one. you are manipulated everytime you smile at a movie moment. It might be the 7th take you're watching. But you're happy. Some people believe quietly and gently and freely. They believe genuinely that they'll meet those they have missed for years. If you could give the truth, before they pass on, would you do it? I remember R D Laing being very pissed off that his family did not want to tell his daughter that she was dying. This starts to wave away semantics, propositions. It is the nub of the matter to me and a place where debate can take place.

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Comment #138606 by mikejswalker on March 4, 2008 at 3:47 pm

It's like this. you decide at some point that you're going to be brutally honest. You won'tbullshit anyone ever again. You won't use false modesty. You won't try to manipulate someone to throw you a compliment. You'll be totally honest even if it hurts them.
Then your 86 year old aunty walks in with THE most horrendous hat. 'like the hat darling?' she says. DO you feel the hot trickle of truth run down your back and down your quivering arse? You bet!
'it's lovely doris' you lie. Truth and intellect bow down to Aunts.
That shit goes deep.

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Comment #138539 by mikejswalker on March 4, 2008 at 1:43 pm

man, what a rockin discussion. And the moment where steve z and N made up was a definite bridges of madison county moment for me.
My mother believed. She didn't go to church, which was always a pain in the arse for the jehovas witnesses that came to the door. This was, in turn, very confusing for my mother. She believed. She didn't need to prove anything to anybody.
Did i ever try to convince her otherwise? Never. Why? She was happy in her belief.
Would any of us do any different if we truly believed their belief made them happy?
She believed without question, that she would meet her own mother when she died. It comforted her, and, if i'm honest, it comforts me that she thought this was absolutely the case.