151. Youtube hater, I respect your right to free speech.

Comment #70572 by Yorker on September 16, 2007 at 6:03 am

There's a lot of disappointing intellectual elitist nonsense going on here, I could single out comments and refute each one but better just to state one simple fact.

The days when atheists were lone freethinkers with self-assured superior mental capacity than the masses, are over. Whether we like it or not, atheism is now a movement, the strength of this movement will be drawn from the masses or it will fail. When dealing with the masses we must speak their language and treat them as the most important people we have, because they are. It's time to treat ALL atheists as brethren and stop snubbing our intellectual noses at them. Atheism must appeal to all; just like religion has tried to. Religion made the promise that death was not the end, we can't beat that; we must make the offer of freedom and joy in this life that knowledge and understanding brings, we must emphasize how precious life is and ask our fellows to value it.

This all seems obvious to me, I don't understand why there are some who don't see this; perhaps they don't want to. Those atheists who can't bring themselves to be part of a movement will simply be marginalized as we always have been.

152. Youtube hater, I respect your right to free speech.

Comment #70568 by Yorker on September 16, 2007 at 5:34 am

7. Comment #70546 by doodinthemood

"Sapient offers a bloke-down-the-street atheist philosophy."

Well said! And in conjunction with scientifically supported atheism, is EXACTLY what the atheist movement needs!

153. Youtube hater, I respect your right to free speech.

Comment #70567 by Yorker on September 16, 2007 at 5:31 am

1. Comment #70530 by Sinful Messiah

"As atheists, do we need unsophisticated, belligerent representatives?"

Yes, we certainly fucking do! If you think atheism is about elitism, you're deluded, without the people you disparage, where will the support come from?

154. The Dawkins debate

Comment #70441 by Yorker on September 15, 2007 at 1:43 pm

Holy shit...and I mean that sincerely.

What amazes and disappoints me is the sheer ignorance and inability to think clearly some of these respondents show, especially since one or two see themselves as educated! Evidently they simply won't listen to rationality, oh well, I guess it'll just have to be more ridicule, mockery and plain old insults. They'll latch on to that for sure.

155. Interview with Christopher Hitchens

Comment #70438 by Yorker on September 15, 2007 at 1:19 pm

18. Comment #70402 by steve99

"Being somewhat skeptical of Chomsky is hardly "Coulterish."

You jumped too keenly on the wrong boat I think.

Looks to me that Windweaver was referring to the anti-female stance taken by Dreamer.

156. Interview with Christopher Hitchens

Comment #70370 by Yorker on September 15, 2007 at 5:43 am

14. Comment #70366 by USA_Limey

It seems to have been OK for a long time, the site allows it. A big change from the early days when we earned a verbal slapping for straying off-topic!

Windweaver

Aside from the fact that Dreamer's Dilemma seems to be asleep - at least to reality - I'm surprised you allowed him to call you a fart! You're clearly more tolerant of assholes than I am.

157. Childhood Origins of Adult Resistance to Science

Comment #70164 by Yorker on September 14, 2007 at 8:25 am

38. Comment #70161 by BAEOZ

Haha, good analogy. But sometimes I wonder if they do understand the body, sometimes I think they've lost the manual!

158. Childhood Origins of Adult Resistance to Science

Comment #70159 by Yorker on September 14, 2007 at 8:17 am

Oxytocin said:

"I've read that they're leaving evolution out of medical school for fear of controversy..."

That's shocking! Isn't evolution the basis of biology? I'm a non-professional in that field but that's what the professionals tell me. I hope you're referring only to a part of the USA!

159. Childhood Origins of Adult Resistance to Science

Comment #70149 by Yorker on September 14, 2007 at 8:04 am

bamafreethinker

Tut, tut, they frown upon the spanking of little arses nowadays don't you know? At least, in a non-sexual way! :)

160. Childhood Origins of Adult Resistance to Science

Comment #70147 by Yorker on September 14, 2007 at 7:59 am

Oxytocin

In recent years my diabetic condition has brought me into more contact with doctors than ever before. Initially, I thought it would be easy to find an atheistic doctor (my preference) but was somewhat surprised to discover that many are religious. I would've thought that seeing the realities of life and the finality of death on an almost daily basis, would cause many to doubt a god but clearly this is not so. What is your experience of such doctors and what is their mindset?

161. Childhood Origins of Adult Resistance to Science

Comment #70129 by Yorker on September 14, 2007 at 7:30 am

24. Comment #70124 by bamafreethinker

No, I said he grabbed the hot wire because that was my point, his mother would most likely not know that a shock would only happen if he held the hot wire AND simultaneously grounded himself. Most floors are non-conductive and most kids footwear is likewise these days, holding the hot wire alone would be harmless.

His mother had unwittingly given him only a partial truth that did not hold in all circumstances. He therefore thought she was wrong but of course didn't know why himself and she thought she was right, a case of a little knowledge possibly leading to further danger.

162. Childhood Origins of Adult Resistance to Science

Comment #70125 by Yorker on September 14, 2007 at 7:20 am

23. Comment #70122 by oxytocin

Well, I assumed a child able to understand cause and effect, perhaps 3 years old but you probably have a better handle on that. Since he explained his contrary findings to his mother, I suppose it would indicate his past experience had been positive i.e. his mother was to be trusted.

I agree with the rest of what you said and wondered if that single instance of his mother being wrong would cause the child to take more future risks or would he revert to trust again. I guess it might simply become a question of frequency.

163. Childhood Origins of Adult Resistance to Science

Comment #70108 by Yorker on September 14, 2007 at 5:09 am

2. Comment #69980 by bamafreethinker

I soon as I read your post this popped into my head.

Curiousity overcomes the child, he goes over and grabs the live wire; nothing happens (the most likely scenario), so he goes to his mother and tells her what he did and the result.

What would the mother do? Knowing her husband wasn't an idiot, she would probably assume he'd isolated the circuit at the distribution board so she checks; but no, it's on, looks like he is an idiot! Assuming the child was fibbing, she admonishes him and reiterates her warning. What happens in the child's mind? Knowing that he did grab the wire with no ill effect, what would he think of his mother and would it have a lasting effect on him?

Perhaps the psychologists here can answer that.

164. Childhood Origins of Adult Resistance to Science

Comment #70102 by Yorker on September 14, 2007 at 4:45 am

17. Comment #70089 by Prufrock

"Professor Dawkins has started by exposing some of the tricks of the psychic trade in a British television programme, but how many took on board the message in the enemies of reason?"

I wondered that myself; I would guess less than 10%. I was pleased though that my woo-wooish sister is becoming less woo-woo all the time. She liked Dawkins and the cumulative effect of his and other books I lent her plus my nagging, seems to be getting through. Very gratifying.

165. Mind Over Manual

Comment #70099 by Yorker on September 14, 2007 at 4:33 am

Been doing a little self-diagnosis recently; it seems I have a few disorders, however, I'm very proud of them! :)

166. Censoring Sir David

Comment #69741 by Yorker on September 12, 2007 at 1:32 pm

Like all Brits here I'm a funder of the BBC, I think that gives me the right to make some DEMANDS of them. I would demand they don't sell any program that allows the buyer to remove footage injurious to the overall content. The broadcaster must make whatever scheduling adjustments they need without changing the content. These programs are made with OUR money and the BBC have wasted far too much of it in recent years. I hope you will all join me in emailing the BBC about this, it's something I do regularly.

Corylus

Nothing wrong with a little silliness now and then. :)

167. Griffin's 'offensive' Emmy speech to be censored

Comment #69700 by Yorker on September 12, 2007 at 9:05 am

80. Comment #69692 by Fanusi Khiyal

"Does anyone really believe that this kind of childish, petulant behaviour convinces anyone to be more rational?"

As far as I'm concerned; of course not.

Does anyone here really think that cheap, pointless shots thrown at a religion will convince its adherents that atheism is a sensible position?

Again; of course not.

I don't think you understand what this is about; the time for arguing against religites is over. I've said it before and I'll say it again, no-one commenting here has any chance at all of changing the thinking of an ingrained religite. That simple fact is the one thing I've learned from a year's visiting of this site.

People don't change lifelong beliefs instantly because some intellectual provides them with a cast-iron case. The case can be effective but it takes a long time for the effect to become apparent and when it does, the changed person may well be unaware of any special occasion that caused the change; it seems to me that it happens subconsciously. Any of us here who think they can directly cause a change in a religite's thinking with our comments is as deluded as the religite!

The point here is that mocking and ridiculing ingrained nonsense is a good way to combat it and such mocking must be understood by the majority, not just a few university professors and self-styled intellectuals. That's why I thought it important to praise xabstract on starting his site; so far I seem to be the only one, which is disheartening and indicative that many here are self-centred glory-seekers who look down upon and fail to realize the importance of their fellow beings.

A Feynman quote is appropriate here: "Honours is epaulettes, they mean nothing".

168. Griffin's 'offensive' Emmy speech to be censored

Comment #69694 by Yorker on September 12, 2007 at 8:18 am

50. Comment #69610 by xabstract

I took a look, I like it, congratulations! What I like most is your straightforward approach not too highbrow, just the thing that will appeal to the the majority that we depend for success upon.

But now you've shamed me, I'll have to do something also. The religite sites still outnumber
our kind so we need to get many more up and running; doing that also has a far better chance of being effective than sitting here writing clever comments. Let's hope others here will take a look and encourage you further. Again, well done!

169. Griffin's 'offensive' Emmy speech to be censored

Comment #69681 by Yorker on September 12, 2007 at 7:22 am

I notice P.Z.Myers has supported Kathy on his blog also and has enjoyed the funny side of her comments without having anyone say he was a supporter of air-headed celebrity.

I'm pleased to note the odd one or two Connollyesque "bring out your dead" wankers on this site are heavily outnumbered also, if they weren't atheists I'd tend to label them "holier than thou" and "perhaps smarter than thou". Of course, others might disagree but like Derek and Clive, I'd say, "fuck 'em"!

170. Griffin's 'offensive' Emmy speech to be censored

Comment #69594 by Yorker on September 11, 2007 at 8:04 pm

20. Comment #69561 by Russell Blackford

"This is further evidence that the Catholic Church is not a moderate institution"

Completely correct, as a glance at their website will confirm.

171. Griffin's 'offensive' Emmy speech to be censored

Comment #69591 by Yorker on September 11, 2007 at 7:57 pm

33. Comment #69582 by TheCelestialTeapot

"Jokes have their place"

They certainly do, and there's not enough of them on this humouristically-challenged site!

You can't seriously expect all commments to be based on logic and evidence, in a case like this anything that ridicules religion and gets up the nose of the child-molesters is not a good thing, it's a fucking GREAT thing!

We need to win more converts, we need to be more likeable and human-like, a bit less cold and hyper-analytical. There is no logical arguing with religites, they are immune to logic and don't understand or ignore evidence.

If a so-called great scientist like Francis Collins writes a book subtitled "A scientist presents the evidence for..." and fails to provide a single shred of evidence, that tells me all I need to know about the convoluted god-befuddled mind of the species "Homo Religioso".

Let's keep the logic and evidence for the real worthwhile things in life.

172. Griffin's 'offensive' Emmy speech to be censored

Comment #69577 by Yorker on September 11, 2007 at 6:47 pm

24. Comment #69569 by NormanDoering

Try some old-fashioned RBP Norman.

173. Griffin's 'offensive' Emmy speech to be censored

Comment #69576 by Yorker on September 11, 2007 at 6:44 pm

The Catholic League's website accuses Kathy of causing offence to 85% of the American people.

I used their feedback page to highlight the stupidity of that remark. I suggest everyone here does the same, they won't post the responses of course, but at least they'll know what we think of them and their dumb-ass president.

174. Griffin's 'offensive' Emmy speech to be censored

Comment #69567 by Yorker on September 11, 2007 at 6:23 pm

How wrong can one be? I thought that love at first hearing was a myth, but no! A woman after my own heart; no question about it, I'm in love!

Kathy my darling, I'll dream of you tonight! xxxxxxxx

175. Interview with Francis Collins

Comment #69463 by Yorker on September 11, 2007 at 10:40 am

142. Comment #69428 by Robert Maynard

"No worries, this isn't exactly a throwdown"

Strange, earlier I looked at this and the word "throwdown" was "callout". If you felt the need to edit, wouldn't a simple "No worries" have been sufficient? Does this mean your initial remark in #138 was intended as a kind of challenge? I'd hate to think I missed a challenge!

176. Interview with Francis Collins

Comment #69395 by Yorker on September 11, 2007 at 5:31 am

138. Comment #69308 by Robert Maynard

Not ignoring you Robert, I tried replying last night but the site was broken - SQL page error on login. However, Henri has replied and I can't think of anything that would add more value so I needn't bother.

177. Interview with Francis Collins

Comment #69301 by Yorker on September 10, 2007 at 12:22 pm

135. Comment #69291 by Henri Bergson

Ok Henri, I'll put him on my ever-growing list of authors to read.

"But I think it was fascinating to consider that 'multiculturalism' is a tool of power for capitalist multinational companies."

This is very similar to Chomsky's analysis and one that's almost certainly correct, certainly difficult to refute. Lefties are almost always more interesting to read and have views more compatible with the long-term progress and survival of humanity, so I'll make a point of getting the book. I won't be buying any more anti-religion books - difficult to see what else there would be to learn.

178. Interview with Francis Collins

Comment #69300 by Yorker on September 10, 2007 at 12:08 pm

132. Comment #69278 by pewkatchoo

Yes, red is indeed 650nm and green 560nm, I was just having a little jest that leaves are not only not green as Gbile says, but red leaves are not red either!

179. Interview with Francis Collins

Comment #69273 by Yorker on September 10, 2007 at 9:27 am

Religion and morality are man-made constructs both having no status as realistic entities. They were invented to keep the masses in order and to prevent them murdering rich, power-mongering people. Historically, it's easily demonstrated that those making the moralistic laws are most often the violaters of them.

180. Interview with Francis Collins

Comment #69246 by Yorker on September 10, 2007 at 6:45 am

120. Comment #69213 by GBile

"I am a leaf, I reflect light in the 650nm region of the electromagnetic spectrum, humans have a name for my colour but it is not green"

181. Interview with Francis Collins

Comment #69244 by Yorker on September 10, 2007 at 6:35 am

121. Comment #69229 by Henri Bergson

Most of which you say here is correct I think...I just realised you were addressing Goldy so perhaps I shouldn't butt in. Now I'm here however, tell me what you think of Zizek's book "The Universal Exception", I've been doing some research on him; he seems to be a mixed bag whose peers have widely different opinions of him.

182. Interview with Francis Collins

Comment #69241 by Yorker on September 10, 2007 at 6:19 am

106. Comment #69165 by roach

"Yeah. And?"

I don't understand your bald comment, there is no "and", no need to further elaborate on my simple statement. Why do you see a need to?

183. Interview with Francis Collins

Comment #69238 by Yorker on September 10, 2007 at 6:14 am

110. Comment #69169 by oxytocin

Yes, I made the assumption about your sex based upon your name, please accept my apology. I suspect you would like Pat Churchland.

114. Comment #69174 by Ewan D

I like Churchland's enthusiasm but not her quaint old-fashionedness, but overall I like her.

124. Comment #69236 by Johnny O

Didn't the pope just decree comically that limbo doesn't exist, or was it just that unconfirmed children don't go there anymore?

Anyway now I'm worried, I might be in the shit! :)

184. Interview with Francis Collins

Comment #69164 by Yorker on September 9, 2007 at 8:36 pm

Of "nice" I would say this. On the occasions I am nice it is because it makes me feel good to know my words or deeds have made someone else feel good.

185. Interview with Francis Collins

Comment #69162 by Yorker on September 9, 2007 at 8:33 pm

So Oxytocin, I make the assumption you're a woman, please correct me otherwise. That being so you will know of your paesan philosopher Pat Churchland, I'd like to hear your opinion of her.

186. Interview with Francis Collins

Comment #69157 by Yorker on September 9, 2007 at 8:08 pm

97. Comment #69155 by 82abhilash

"I think the 'open hostility' part is a bit exaggerated"

I still see anti-intellectual phrases like "smart-ass", "nerd", and "geek" in common usage. I even have a couple of of relatives who avoid me because they think I'm too intellectual.

"I have hope that in the long run sensibility will prevail."

So do I, indeed, the future of humanity depends on it!

187. Interview with Francis Collins

Comment #69156 by Yorker on September 9, 2007 at 7:58 pm

96. Comment #69154 by BAEOZ

Aha, a fellow underscore-hater I hope. :)

188. Interview with Francis Collins

Comment #69152 by Yorker on September 9, 2007 at 7:49 pm

Rational_G and BaeOz

Unfortunately, it may come to something like that.

Incidentally BaeOz, how do you like the look of your name in Hungarian Notation style; I like it better.

189. Interview with Francis Collins

Comment #69146 by Yorker on September 9, 2007 at 7:28 pm

Couldn't sleep, made tea, now awake again.

79. Comment #69125 by 82abhilash

"If each of them contributes in their own way, whatever little they can, then the drops of water can fill up the bucket."

And what will you do with the bucket?

I see the problem like this. The masses are simply not saavy enough to be swayed by beautiful, elegant, insightful, logical and well-presented arguments, in fact, the majority fear intellectual thought and often show open hostility towards it.

The masses are swayed by what they "feel" about people, not what they think about people, that's why some major assholes rise to positions of political power. The bullshitters behind politicians do their best to present the puppet in a way that most people will feel good about, intellectual ability is rarely even mentioned. It's not by accident that the world's cleverest people are almost never politicians, and yet the atheist position must become popular if the threat of annihilation by religious stupidity is to be removed.

Unless the masses "feel" we're good guys, it might as well be a bucket of piss we're peddling.

190. Interview with Francis Collins

Comment #69089 by Yorker on September 9, 2007 at 5:28 pm

57. Comment #69086 by Henri Bergson

Yes, values fluctuate like fashions!

...and so to bed.

191. Interview with Francis Collins

Comment #69084 by Yorker on September 9, 2007 at 5:08 pm

Aha, a juicy bait has been cast!

192. Interview with Francis Collins

Comment #69082 by Yorker on September 9, 2007 at 5:06 pm

52. Comment #69075 by onagol

"...these posts are read by many people who don't contribute..."

Are they? How do you know that? I don't know that!

I'd bet that of all the people who come here and read, 90% of them will at some point start commenting. They don't come here to get educated, if they did, many posts would be questions and you'd see much more interaction. I'd say it's much more likely that people come here to say something, most posts are disconnected statements, not wisdom accumulating. Each is trying to say what no-one else has (a good thing) but the overall goal seems to be a desire to influence, not learn. And some of us just try to have some fun along the way (clearly)!

193. Interview with Francis Collins

Comment #69077 by Yorker on September 9, 2007 at 4:51 pm

50. Comment #69071 by 82abhilash

You're right that we can affect each other, but unless a few of us are people in a position to influence the masses, we don't mean much. That's what I meant. As far as I know no-one here other than RD has ever converted a religite through the power of rational argument, and many have tried since day one. No matter how insightful, intelligent or beautiful a comment made here is, if it doesn't come from a public figure it will be unknown. Perhaps many "mute inglorious Miltons" here may reside.

194. Interview with Francis Collins

Comment #69074 by Yorker on September 9, 2007 at 4:39 pm

24. Comment #68973 by Henri Bergson

"...There is no 'good' and 'evil'..."

I kinda half agree with that but I mention it because I recently read that one in two hundred people alive today are direct descendants of Ghenghis Khan because of the mongol practice of rapine and pillage. It's a sobering thought that humanity might be what it is today because of rape! The more I think of it, the more I think it might be true, indeed, I'll stick my neck out and say that if we had to rely on love and marriage, we would've went extinct long ago.

195. Interview with Francis Collins

Comment #69068 by Yorker on September 9, 2007 at 4:24 pm

Oxytocin

I think you should study some old posts, you'll get a better handle on the characters here.

Henri, for example, is a lover of philosophy and somewhat like myself, has a fondness for making terse blunt statements as a way of being an irksome bastard, but he also says some wise things to show he's not all bad. Some of us have a tendency to enjoy the perverse fun to be had from fucking with peoples minds that this medium encourages. Best not to take it all too seriously I think, what we say here carries little if any weight.

196. The Rise of Atheist America

Comment #68936 by Yorker on September 9, 2007 at 7:13 am

Argghh....

197. Interview with Francis Collins

Comment #68935 by Yorker on September 9, 2007 at 7:06 am

6. Comment #68874 by Ricky Ramirez

"all Collins needs to do is read a book or take a class on basic cultural anthropology to get an idea on why human societies have a sense of what's "right" and "wrong" (which varies from culture to culture)."

Indeed, it could be fairly said that one person's "right" is another person's "wrong"; ask any Islamist beheading specialist!

198. Interview with Francis Collins

Comment #68932 by Yorker on September 9, 2007 at 6:56 am

Before I listened, I suspected it would be a waste of time so I cooked a late breakfast first and listened while I ate. I was glad because I enjoyed the meal and didn't feel I'd lost much precious life-time. It was disappointing overall and of course contained nothing of much interest or value. I thought for a brief moment his condemnation of ID was a positive step but then realised that fundamentalist ID'ers would be no more likely to be swayed by Collins than by Dawkins, Dennett or Harris.

It did one good thing. It confirmed I shouldn't bother watching or listening to the rants of religites anymore. I'll just rely on posters here to let me know when God's existence has been proven; then I'll shoot myself, confident that a better life awaits in heaven.

199. The Rise of Atheist America

Comment #68919 by Yorker on September 9, 2007 at 5:55 am

Don't knock this too much, history shows propaganda works!

200. The Fleas Are Multiplying!

Comment #68801 by Yorker on September 8, 2007 at 5:01 pm

1. Comment #68626 by heathen2

The first and best comment on this thread. Unlike you though, I wouldn't even peruse them in a library, why would I waste my time when the chance of something interesting showing up must be close to zero.