151. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #162546 by clodhopper on April 17, 2008 at 4:01 am

Ego: Well when you come back (if you do), and bearing in mind that we don't hand out free passes here, explain why anything external is required to give meaning to life. Sleep well.

152. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #162496 by clodhopper on April 17, 2008 at 3:08 am

Epee: "A classic example of initiating with the intent of generating quarrel dialogue"

Indeed. Quick registration. Lob a grenade or three. Run like fuck. Good name for it though.

153. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #162425 by clodhopper on April 17, 2008 at 12:10 am

Flicking back through the thread I see that someone was claiming he had a personal relationship with God and that he heard Gods words in his head. I always find that one rather scary as often it seems Gods words involve instructions to kill yourself or someone else.

Then again, some people just get impaled on their own vanity.

154. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #162423 by clodhopper on April 16, 2008 at 11:42 pm

Comment #162348 by Diacanu

Screw conspiracy theories.

Yup...waste of time. Next time he comes to UK we'll just wizz him down to Sarrat for a debrief with Toby Esterhase.

155. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #162304 by clodhopper on April 16, 2008 at 2:29 pm

Comment #162278 by epeeist

......given up fencing and turned them into knitting needles.

I sort of see you into crochet rather than knitting somehow....shawls and stuff.

156. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #162301 by clodhopper on April 16, 2008 at 2:24 pm

Also guilty as charged. You're right Quetz.

No wait.....that CAN'T be right...you've just admitted you're not perfect!

157. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #162258 by clodhopper on April 16, 2008 at 12:56 pm

Comment #162251 by Bonzai

Yeah, that is his problem. He is needy.

Um...missed most of that....been ill. But I had a general sense that many of his posts were looking for strokes & attention seeking without contributing overly much. Something didn't feel quite right anyway.

Mind you, he could've gone deep undercover to be a double double triple agent and be at this very moment setting up dead letter boxes all over Scotland.

158. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #162249 by clodhopper on April 16, 2008 at 12:42 pm

Nothing south of Brum can possibly be a source of morality....even if it is in an SSSI.

159. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #162241 by clodhopper on April 16, 2008 at 12:28 pm

Comment #162228 by flying goose

What is the source of morality?

It comes out of the hills just north of Scunthorpe (I think).

160. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160049 by clodhopper on April 13, 2008 at 3:08 pm

David A Robertson:

I trust you will find your continued visits to RDnet both informative and enlightening; the quality of debate here is so high that it is not at all surprising that you have changed your mind and chosen to remain.

As you will remember you wrote on 21st March:

"First of all I do not crave the attention on this website. In fact I could really do without it and when I am finished my 'shredding ' of Paula's review I will leave it alone....

For your ease of reference here is a list of your posts to RDnet both as Clearthinker and as David A Robertson since that date:

Lying for Jesus?
Comment #148713 by clearthinker on March 23, 2008 at 4:24 pm

Lying for Jesus?
Comment #149060 by clearthinker on March 25, 2008 at 4:09 am

Wicked untruths from the Church
Comment #149602 by clearthinker on March 26, 2008 at 1:43 am

'We Make Our Own Heaven'
Comment #151523 by clearthinker on March 28, 2008 at 11:49 pm

Expelled Overview
Comment #151545 by clearthinker on March 29, 2008 at 12:47 am

Beware the Believers
Comment #151886 by clearthinker on March 29, 2008 at 4:05 pm

Beware the Believers
Comment #152203 by clearthinker on March 30, 2008 at 12:36 pm

Beware the Believers
Comment #152389 by clearthinker on March 30, 2008 at 11:12 pm

Fleabytes
Comment #153714 by clearthinker on April 1, 2008 at 10:54 pm

Fleabytes
Comment #153726 by clearthinker on April 2, 2008 at 12:22 am

Fleabytes
Comment #153727 by clearthinker on April 2, 2008 at 12:23 am

Fleabytes
Comment #153728 by clearthinker on April 2, 2008 at 12:24 am

Fleabytes
Comment #153730 by clearthinker on April 2, 2008 at 12:30 am

Fleabytes
Comment #153733 by clearthinker on April 2, 2008 at 12:34 am

Fleabytes
Comment #153817 by clearthinker on April 2, 2008 at 5:59 am

Fleabytes
Comment #156130 by clearthinker on April 6, 2008 at 11:55 pm

Fleabytes
Comment #156131 by clearthinker on April 6, 2008 at 11:56 pm

Fleabytes
Comment #156132 by clearthinker on April 6, 2008 at 11:56 pm

Fleabytes
Comment #156134 by clearthinker on April 6, 2008 at 11:57 pm

Fleabytes
Comment #156135 by clearthinker on April 7, 2008 at 12:00 am

Dawkins warns of human extinction
Comment #156136 by clearthinker on April 7, 2008 at 12:09 am

Protests no concern for outspoken atheist
Comment #156137 by clearthinker on April 7, 2008 at 12:15 am

Pastor attacks scientist's talk
Comment #156139 by clearthinker on April 7, 2008 at 12:22 am

Fleabytes
Comment #156153 by clearthinker on April 7, 2008 at 1:03 am

Lying for Jesus?
Comment #159806 by David A Robertson on April 13, 2008 at 7:24 am

Lying for Jesus?
Comment #159822 by David A Robertson on April 13, 2008 at 7:48 am

Lying for Jesus?
Comment #159930 by David A Robertson on April 13, 2008 at 12:22 pm

Lying for Jesus?
Comment #159934 by David A Robertson on April 13, 2008 at 12:29 pm


As I said, I quite understand why you might wish to remain on this forum to make contributions, despite what you wrote on 21st March, but I really would be grateful if you could indicate what your own motivations are for doing so; I have no wish to put words in your mouth after all.

Will you be posting mainly as Clearthinker or as David A Robertson? Also, I am a bit puzzled.....under which nom de plume were you previously banned?

If you do choose to stay, I wondered if you would be interested in resuming our discussion of what constitutes 'evidence'? As you may remember I had asked you this question (on March 5th), in the context of the existence of God and you provided a dictionary definition of the word in response. I then suggested that this might not in fact be adequate for dealing with this issue but have not had a further response.

Only if you're staying mind. No pressure. I know you're very busy and have many important things to do.

161. 'Expelled' ripped off Harvard's 'Inner Life of the Cell' animation

Comment #158984 by clodhopper on April 11, 2008 at 9:31 am

Sounds like an argument from personal incredulity....

162. Fleabytes

Comment #158820 by clodhopper on April 11, 2008 at 4:42 am

This Much I Know:

A wise person makes no complaint that ducks quack.

It seems silly (to me) to complain that atheism does not meet ones personal needs.

163. Fleabytes

Comment #152663 by clodhopper on March 31, 2008 at 10:05 am

Here is a list of posts from David Robertson since his Comment #147672

"First of all I do not crave the attention on this website. In fact I could really do without it and when I am finished my 'shredding ' of Paula's review I will leave it alone. blah blah blah....

Lying for Jesus?
Comment #148713 by clearthinker on March 23, 2008 at 4:24 pm

Lying for Jesus?
Comment #149060 by clearthinker on March 25, 2008 at 4:09 am

Wicked untruths from the Church
Comment #149602 by clearthinker on March 26, 2008 at 1:43 am

'We Make Our Own Heaven'
Comment #151523 by clearthinker on March 28, 2008 at 11:49 pm

Expelled Overview
Comment #151545 by clearthinker on March 29, 2008 at 12:47 am

Beware the Believers
Comment #151886 by clearthinker on March 29, 2008 at 4:05 pm

Beware the Believers
Comment #152203 by clearthinker on March 30, 2008 at 12:36 pm

Beware the Believers
Comment #152389 by clearthinker on March 30, 2008 at 11:12 pm


And the conclusion we draw from this is........?

164. Fleabytes

Comment #151331 by clodhopper on March 28, 2008 at 2:06 pm

Rev Dark

Deepest condolences to you and yours on the loss of your lovely sounding G'ma. Sounds like she will be sadly missed.

I empathise fully with your bitter anger at the religious drivel and trivia when all you really want to do is celebrate HER and HER life. It is a salutory remider to us all that if we don't want the default fill-in-the-blank, impersonal religious shite to accompany our or our loved ones departures, then we'd better do something about it.

I kicked the priests into touch for my mum's funeral and conducted it myself with memories, poetry, live music etc. Best damn thing I ever did. Not always your shout though is it?

Christ on a Bike, you must've been seething inside!! *hugs*

Hey, why not do your own little retrospecive memorial service? Doesn't need to be a big thing, just something to say goodbye in the way that you would want to, with those that feel the same way. You could even work it round a special scrabble evening. Anything to reclaim the moment for her and the people that loved her and to take the bitterness away.

I'm gonna shut up coz I'm rambling now and I don't know if it's appropriate.

best
*hugs*

clod

EDIT: Ever played Upwords? Bit like a vertical version of scrabble but not quite. I think you'd love it...

165. Fleabytes

Comment #151242 by clodhopper on March 28, 2008 at 9:53 am

Comment #151084 by Bonzai

Hey Clod, what happens to your old avatar? Bring it back, I thought that was so cute.

Sent away for decontamination.....back soon...


7258. Comment #151093 by Bonzai

I don't know if Bohm had a religious agenda, which I doubt very much.

Well, I hesitate to call it a religious agenda, but I do know that he was very much influenced and involved with the teachings of Jiddu Krishnamurti and that he had many many conversations with him looking into deep issues of time, matter, energy, death, consciousness etc. I have one such book from their dialogues called 'The Ending of Time'. It is a thought provoking read if you come across it sometime. I don't doubt at all that Bohm's motives were just to try to find the truth and to see if we can conceptualise it somehow.

Anyway, I'm sure you're right, they will sneek god into any and every theory physicists come up with till the day the god particle is found and we are staring he/she/it/whatever in the face, whereupon it will be '...ner ner, see, told you so!'

Bring on the LHC I say!

166. Fleabytes

Comment #151062 by clodhopper on March 28, 2008 at 5:09 am

Steve:

You are just paranoid :)

PHEW! Thank god for that!

*Wallet...check*
*Keys....check*
*Tranquillisers....check*
*Czech beer....czech*
*Pocket Bible....WTF*

167. Fleabytes

Comment #151056 by clodhopper on March 28, 2008 at 4:56 am

You Tell them New Scientists Steve....they're as bad as New Atheists!

But tell me, is there an agenda there or am I just paranoid?

168. Fleabytes

Comment #151047 by clodhopper on March 28, 2008 at 4:33 am

Mornin All. Praise the Lard.

Paula: Hope ya feel better soon & good luck for next week. We'll be there in spirit..tee hee.

By way of diversion, I was wondering if the efforts of physicists like Sheldon Goldstein of Rutgers, Durr and Zanghi of Geonoa, to develop modified versions of Bohmian mechanics suggesting that the world only appears full of quantum randomness while in fact it rests on some deeper deterministic layer, has any hidden agenda to it. (New Scientist - 22 March 08)

I know David Bohm was a bit of a mysteron but I don't know about the others; maybe all physicists have to be mysterons anyway these days. Would physicists with religious mindsets be drawn to these models because determinism holds some advantages when it comes to introducing god into the cosmos; or doesn't it make any difference? It's just that when I read things like ...'the outcome of an experiment isn't truly random, but is determined by the values of certain "hidden variables"'. I get a little suspicious. Am I just being paranoid or are they really only after the 'truth'?

Quantum theory is full of fuzzy unpredictability: It doesn't know whether a particle fired at a split screen will take the left or the right path "mainstream quantum theory says each particles trajectory is not fixed until you measure it, so it can travel through both slits and interfere with itself. Sheesh, even I can do that! Bohmian mechanics suggests there is a quantum wave associated with each particle and this wave pattern acts on the particles making them behave in the way that particles should damn well behave, like particles.

It just seems to me that this sort of determinism might be something that theists would really rather prefer....God does not play dice etc etc. Anything in that? I don't know.

Since Bohmian mechanics seems not to make any predictions that differ from ordinary quantum mechanics it is suggested that the theory is "observationally meaningless".. Which, in a curious way, brings us back to god.....or beer....whatever! :-)

169. Fleabytes

Comment #150741 by clodhopper on March 27, 2008 at 11:06 am

7093. Comment #150708 by annabanana

I take no responsibility for the images produced in the imagination of others as a result of my comments. :-)

Aw dammit Anna!! I was gonna use that line as one of gods 'excuses'....:-(

EDIT: Gotta cook tea now (we brits say that you know), we don't literally mean *cook* *tea*
It's a metaphor....it requires scholarly interpretation. Ask Quetz.

170. Fleabytes

Comment #150703 by clodhopper on March 27, 2008 at 9:25 am

7058.clodhopper *ducks*
clod: Silence = assent then, yes?
clod: No, they're just obsessed with sex at the moment.
clod: Tch!! Typical Atheists!!
clod: Fancy some wedding cake then?
clod: Only if epeeist made it.
clod: How about a rolled up newspaper?
clod: No thanks, you got a sister?
clod: Four as it happens.
clod: Will you marry me?
clod: Nope.

171. Fleabytes

Comment #150651 by clodhopper on March 27, 2008 at 8:11 am

7046. Comment #150631 by Frankus1122

What is the theist response, not to specific questions, but the fact that there are so many questions?

Can I bat for the b team?

Because god wants us to work to know him and to find out for ourselves what he wants of us. A meal laid out on a plate will keep the body going but food I have grown and cooked for myself is way more satisfying.

Many Christians/Muslims/Hindus etc are trying very hard to be very good people in the sense of loving one's neighbour, being kind, generous, reasonable, charitable and so on. Because there are so many questions to ask keeps us on our toes through having to explore what it means to be good in the way that god wants. He has given us free will to choose to act according to his commandments [or not], essentially about loving one's neighbour as oneself in compliance with the golden rule. This means working hard to interpret the teachings of Christ in the modern world.

*ducks*

172. Fleabytes

Comment #150542 by clodhopper on March 27, 2008 at 5:01 am

Irate: I think (for politeness sake), you should mention the non-runners and did-not-shows.

173. Fleabytes

Comment #150516 by clodhopper on March 27, 2008 at 3:50 am

7007. Comment #150365 by Goldy

This has never been explained to my satisfaction, maybe you can help. Why does the message need to be propagated? Indeed, why do people need to be converted (or face death/hardship) by others?

I think Goldy that you've both asked a good question and answered it as well. Religion as a mechanism of social control/order par excellance requires that it be propogated throughout the society and that a big enough proportion of the people subscribe to it or at least allow it legitimacy. The implied threats for non-conformity, ostricisation, expulsion, isolation, death, eternal punishment and so on then make the system largely self policing, a huge bonus.

Atheism, despite some wishful thinking to the contrary, cannot be used in this way because it has no centre, no creed, no dogma. It is not amenable to hi-jack by any interest group though individual atheists may be.

It kind of echos my question in 6983 viz "If God chooses to reveal to mankind through scripture and revelation and finds that there is an interpretation problem with regard to scripture leading to deadly conflict, then why is this problem not resolved by a definitive and indisputable revelation on the subject?"

Deathly Silence.

I suppose we may get a mysteron on saying 'god works in mysterious ways' or some such. Over to them then.

174. Fleabytes

Comment #150083 by clodhopper on March 26, 2008 at 12:50 pm

er....where's Paula at?

175. Fleabytes

Comment #150042 by clodhopper on March 26, 2008 at 12:13 pm

Al: After reading the thread about the 11yr old girl who just died while her parents ignored her agony and just prayed for her to get better instead of seeking medical help, can we drop the 'testing faith' theme for a bit please. It's just too sad for words.....

176. Fleabytes

Comment #150026 by clodhopper on March 26, 2008 at 12:05 pm

Richard: let's have a nice cuppa together....

Could you stretch to a single malt? It's gone 7.

er....you missed out the 'indisputable' bit. :-(

177. Saudi Arabia Leader Calls for Interfaith Dialogue

Comment #149981 by clodhopper on March 26, 2008 at 11:31 am

Irate: G'won...er, you know? Please....

178. Fleabytes

Comment #149969 by clodhopper on March 26, 2008 at 11:20 am

hungarianelephant: Isn't that what the Pope is for?

Nope, don't tempt me!!!

I'll rephrase then......why is it not resolved by a definitive and indisputable revelation on the subject?

179. Fleabytes

Comment #149966 by clodhopper on March 26, 2008 at 11:15 am

If God chooses to reveal to mankind through scripture and revelation and finds that there is an interpretation problem with regard to scripture leading to deadly conflict, then why is this problem not resolved by a definitive revelation on the subject?

180. Happy Birthday, Richard Dawkins!

Comment #149873 by clodhopper on March 26, 2008 at 10:08 am

......and give us our bus passes
as we forgive those who bus pass against us
and lead him not into temptation as
he's perfectly capable of finding it for himself
and I know you won't like it but please
can we have him for ever and ever coz
he's the MAN. Srsly.

Many Happy Returns Richard. Have a great day.

181. Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help

Comment #149855 by clodhopper on March 26, 2008 at 9:54 am

Just makes you want to cry. There must now be serious questions as to the parents fitness to care for the remaining children at home.

Anyone know what state laws are relevant here?

Before sacrificing their child an the alter of their faith did they road test it by praying for the car to get better, the sink to unblock itself, and the boiler pump to mend? Thought not.

Whatever laws exist should be used to the fullest extent with max publicity in the hope that this will prevent similar tragedies from occuring.

182. Fleabytes

Comment #149669 by clodhopper on March 26, 2008 at 4:53 am

Many Happy Returns of the Day Steve

May I say I really enjoy reading your posts and if I could buy you a pint then I certaqinly would.

Keep em coming!

Oh....and happy birthday too Mr Benway....how do you cope? :-))))

183. Happy 66th Birthday, Richard Dawkins!

Comment #149666 by clodhopper on March 26, 2008 at 4:47 am

Many Happy Returns Richard

Have a great day and thank you so much for this wonderful site......

best

clod

184. Sue Blackmore debates Alister McGrath

Comment #149411 by clodhopper on March 25, 2008 at 3:19 pm

174. Comment #149402 by Bonzai

Life is not just about getting "explanations" and your explanations may turn out to be totally wrong

Indeed. Experience is living. Explanation is discovery. Place for both, no?

185. Sue Blackmore debates Alister McGrath

Comment #149410 by clodhopper on March 25, 2008 at 3:12 pm

158. Comment #149382 by al-rawandi

I like clodhopper's wife!

er.....she sais she'll meet yer on Penny Street at 11. She'll be the one with the fishnets and the rosette saying 'Jesus Loves a Sinner'

PS: Don't forget the chocs or your toast!

186. Sue Blackmore debates Alister McGrath

Comment #149393 by clodhopper on March 25, 2008 at 2:42 pm

155. Comment #149378 by Swifty32661

I'm sorry if you were being facetious :).

No apology necessary Swifty :-)

But.....the 'internal world' of emotion, feeling, does exist, and, as you indicate, is very problematic when dealing with the issues we're discussing here. The 'emotional' component of religion cannot just be dismissed, it has to be dealt with somehow. I'll ask me wife....

187. Sue Blackmore debates Alister McGrath

Comment #149375 by clodhopper on March 25, 2008 at 2:18 pm

TCT: "That's one she'll have to take on faith for now ;). But not a moderate wishy-washy faith. Full balled fundamentalist immutable faith."

Fuck that. My wife wants Chocolate does my wife!!!

TCT: If the Chocs aren't up to scratch...you're going to hell in a handcart. By Order. The Wife.

188. Sue Blackmore debates Alister McGrath

Comment #149365 by clodhopper on March 25, 2008 at 2:10 pm

TCT "Everything else that claims knowledge of the world without submitting itself to interrogation by the scientific method of inquiry can safely be ignored."

My wife would like you to scientifically examine my claim that 'I love her'. Can you do this empirically. Just asking.

PS: My wife cannot be ignored....:-(((
PPS: Ignore my wife at your mortal Peril...
:-((((((

189. Sue Blackmore debates Alister McGrath

Comment #149359 by clodhopper on March 25, 2008 at 2:02 pm

Largely belief in belief or wishful thinking. You can shoehorn cognitive dissonance to fit or just go into denial.

190. Sue Blackmore debates Alister McGrath

Comment #149350 by clodhopper on March 25, 2008 at 1:49 pm

I have yet to get a religite to agree terms of reference for the word 'evidence'. Not holding breath either.

They are perfectly entitled to construct 'opinion' out of their chosen fairy tale.

What matters is the marketing that follows.

EDIT: ...and consequence that follows...

191. Sue Blackmore debates Alister McGrath

Comment #149342 by clodhopper on March 25, 2008 at 1:41 pm

Oh Shit. a red herring is eating my strawman in my geographical area. bleedin cheek.

192. Sue Blackmore debates Alister McGrath

Comment #149336 by clodhopper on March 25, 2008 at 1:35 pm

Al

The religious assume (on faith) that there is a god,

I think the religious believe (on evidence - their definition), that there is a god.

193. Sue Blackmore debates Alister McGrath

Comment #149328 by clodhopper on March 25, 2008 at 1:21 pm

Bonzai:

....and it doesn't mean the person has to be overall irrational to have faith.

Of course not. It depends how they market this to the world. If they said 'our opinion is', then fine. If they market it as fact, then we have a problem....like I have with the damned internet just now.

194. Sue Blackmore debates Alister McGrath

Comment #149292 by clodhopper on March 25, 2008 at 11:55 am

What I derive from 'intellectual honesty' I can just call opinion and the problem dissapears doesn't it?

195. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #149272 by clodhopper on March 25, 2008 at 11:18 am

"You can focus methods of transmitting heat... "

How is heat focussed and transmitted in hell?

196. Wicked untruths from the Church

Comment #149239 by clodhopper on March 25, 2008 at 9:56 am

"If god doesn't like the way I live, Let him tell me, not you."

"Lead me not into temptation
I can find it by myself"

...works for me :-)))

197. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #149208 by clodhopper on March 25, 2008 at 9:08 am

Fleabytes Comment #147672 by clearthinker:

First of all I do not crave the attention on this website. In fact I could really do without it and when I am finished my 'shredding ' of Paula's review I will leave it alone. I was quite happy away from it until a couple of you contacted me to accuse me of cowardice for not responding to an article I did not know existed and also of lying about the quotes in my book.

#147688 Clod - I note that you say you will leave it alone when this review process has run its course. For how long do you think you will be able to stay away?

Bloody hell David....you managed 4 days. Are you on steroids?

198. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #149128 by clodhopper on March 25, 2008 at 6:43 am

Comment #149122 by wyattroberts

I will allow that the majority of Mr. Dawkins's may be entirely true.

I think his left leg is a plant.

199. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #149115 by clodhopper on March 25, 2008 at 6:13 am

228. Comment #149102 by bibanu

WHENCE the WILL to act AGAINST our selfish genes??? I would really appreciate an answer to this. Thanks.

We have negotiated and codified standards of behaviour in a complex developed society. What exactly would 'acting Darwin' mean?

200. Fleabytes

Comment #149105 by clodhopper on March 25, 2008 at 6:01 am

6888. Comment #149088 by Dr Benway

They start the discussion with subtle insults like, "Dawkins' followers."

Oh yes! Shall we list them....should be good for another couple hundred posts. I'll start.

Atheist Fundamentalists!