151. Fleabytes

Comment #158097 by keith on April 10, 2008 at 4:18 am

Steve,

Do you normally repeat stuff told in confidence to others?

No, I don't, but neither do I give juicy hints that I know something important that would change people's minds. You can silence any criticism this way, whether you know anything relevant or not. Either tell us what you know or keep quiet about the whole thing. Steve, you seem to be making a career out of being 'a nice man' and it sometimes drives you into odd positions.

152. Fleabytes

Comment #158088 by keith on April 10, 2008 at 4:05 am

Brian,

Your post was clear as mud. You might be a nicer person than me but could you see your way to actually saying something rather than just:

I consider Richard a friend...As much as one can consider a person not met a friend. I think you guys have an image that of Richard that may be incorrect...Then again, I've not met him, so maybe my image is incorrect...My only point is that without knowing what you're talking about, you may just be flailing at a straw man...Or perhaps you're spot on. What I've been told would make me think the former,...but I may have misunderstood or not have been told the truth.

Right...Pretty convincing stuff.

I think I know something more of Richard than perhaps others here do. What that is is not my business to say.

Do the names Rosencrantz and Guildenstern mean anything to you? No matter. So pray, what is this secret about RM of which you dare not speak and would potentially change the way I view him? That he was dropped on his head as a child? That he has fought a lifelong battle against the odds to achieve his current IQ?

153. Fleabytes

Comment #158062 by keith on April 10, 2008 at 3:21 am

Post by David Robertson to Richard Morgan with my comments in brackets:

...Given the ethos of the site I thought they would say that you were a defector...

[Radical mind changer might be nearer the truth. I suspect RM would agree with anyone who flatters him.]

...a poor soul who needed the comfort of meaningless religion...

[Don't know. Very hard to tell the difference between a poor, lost soul and a plain arsehole]

...a fraud

[True, but a pretty harmless one]

...an idiot

[In the technical sense, perhaps not, but in the colloquial sense, unquestionably]

...someone not worth bothering about anyway

[Unless you're a psychologist, yes. However, for those in the nursing profession to say he was not worth bothering with would be unnecessarily heartless]

...and that the post here was really not from you at all, but another subtle trick by the evil Robertson.

[David, with a deluded megalomaniac i.e. you, everything is possible. Even so, I'm not sure any of us would call you evil. Evil requires a kind of cunning that you totally lack. A much more accurate word than evil might be...pathetic. Would you say that was fair?]

[Dawkins'] only response to me has been to call me a 'flea, ungenerous, unchristian, mean-spirited and an unpleasant fruitcake'.

How galling for you, David. The nasty old professor. It would have been so much nicer of him to have said that you were a worthy rival and that you had something genuinely worthwhile to say. I wonder why he didn't say this?

Incidentally, although very few of us end up with the faces we deserve, most of us end up with the friends we deserve. Let's hope that RM is happy now with you and his other new friends. Just don't forget to massage his ego from time to time, otherwise he could be defecting back again within the month.

Peacebeuponme,

Yes.

154. Fleabytes

Comment #157835 by keith on April 9, 2008 at 3:30 pm

For those of us with longer memories, we might bear in mind that Richard Morgan has come and gone before with a final wave at this cruel world that is RD.net. I, unlike many other people, was not particularly sorry to see him go, either the first time or this. If self-obsessed talk peppered with a little fawning and seasoned with a pinch of self-flagellation (in reality just another gambit to talk about himself) is you're thing then yes, of course you will be sorry to see him go. Otherwise, spare yourselves the self-recriminations.

155. Fleabytes

Comment #157828 by keith on April 9, 2008 at 3:16 pm

Incredulous,

You're absolutely right. Getting something and being disappointed with it ("To burst into fullfilment's desolate attic", in Philip Larkin's words), does nothing to stop the wanting. And perhaps you're right, maybe supporting a football team really can fill a void in someone's life.

It might just be that I had the misfortune to be born in Leicester, whose football team has never been able to fulfil that void for me, or, what is more important, remain a permanent force in the Premiership.

156. Richard Dawkins on The Big Questions

Comment #157522 by keith on April 9, 2008 at 8:20 am

Cartomancer,

As an historian (yes, I use "an" too)...

Er, why?

157. Fleabytes

Comment #157518 by keith on April 9, 2008 at 8:14 am

Incredulous,

The need to belong is a very powerful force. I've walked home when a crowd from a football match have been leaving a football ground and the urge to go with their flow and join their joy or misery - depending on the result - was overwhelming.

I know you´re "Incredulous" but I'm incredulous. I have walked home from football matches hundreds of times and the overwhelming feeling amongst fans is neither joy nor misery but a burning desire to get to your car, get away from the crowds and get home.

I suspect the need to belong is strongest when looking longingly on from the outside. What seems like a unified tide from without feels like a collection of pretty coarse individuals from within and a group to which you neither feel, nor want to feel, attached: it's still the rest of the world, plus you, just like it always is. Quite disappointing, really.

158. Cult leader Pyotr Kuznetsov tries suicide after realising he was wrong about doomsday

Comment #157485 by keith on April 9, 2008 at 6:56 am

Peacebeuponme,

Yes, 'First post!' is pretty high on the list of stupid things to write. So stupid, in fact, that I usually assume that the person who wrote it was joking and I immediately warm to them. It's only after reading on (if there is anything more than just 'First post!') that you can gauge whether the poster is just pretending to be a bity thick or whether the poor bloke really is just plain dumb.

By the way, you were right a day or two ago about me having missed a golden opportunity to hammer home the contradictions in someone's post. I was kicking myself afterwards but hey, you have to be philosophical about these things and what's done is done. There's no clawing back from Old Father Time that missed chance of being nasty to someone. Just learn from your mistakes and be more vigilant next time.

159. The Atheist Next Door

Comment #157469 by keith on April 9, 2008 at 6:16 am

Where do I place my trust and my hope.

I place my trust and my hope in humanity and the human spirit. I can see good people in all cultures, all nations, all religions, even the ones weighted down by the bad.

Amen and halleluyah to that, brother/sister!

However, if I were you I would try and whittle down my 'Things and people I trust' list a tiny bit, at least so that it no longer includes anyone and everyone on God's green Earth.

To trust both 'humanity' and 'the human spirit' is like trusting air: it's all around us and some of it stinks. How about trusting the people who have shown themselves worthy of your trust, not trusting the ones who have cheated you and reserving judgment on the other 99% of the world's population?

Trusting in humanity and the human spirit sounds warm and big-hearted, but what does it mean?

160. The books that inspire me

Comment #157459 by keith on April 9, 2008 at 5:57 am

The books that inspired me most were 'The Little Prince', 'Jonathan Livingstone Seagull', 'Steppenwolf' and '100 Years Of Solitude' (My joke list). As for my real list, books I read when I was very young inspired me more than any later ones could: 'Stig of the Dump' (6 years old), 'The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe' (10 years old) and 'Wuthering Heights' (young adult) were all inspirational.

Thereafter, Dostoyevski, Nabokov, Kafka, Aldous Huxley, Graham Greene, Dan Dennett and Steven Pinker have really all been just footnotes and nice ways of passing the time.

161. Cult leader Pyotr Kuznetsov tries suicide after realising he was wrong about doomsday

Comment #157372 by keith on April 9, 2008 at 2:15 am

These things happen, but I agree with you. It has not been pleasant.

Really? The only threads I look at in a negative light are those that start and end with, "Awesome article!" and have very little variation inbetween.

I liked the comment that this site is a kind of virtual community. I agree. It seems we can tolerate no end of nonsense from strangers because we know we will never see them again, but we are less forgiving of the annoying habits and opinions of those we meet on a regular basis. And surely this is where things become interesting. Finally! some interaction whose sole purpose isn't simply to show what nice people we are. I've never really seen where the fun in constant agreeing and backslapping lies. Maybe every community, real or virtual, needs its peacemakers, its provocateurs, its police and its vandals. What is there to lament about all this? Surely the alternative is Marx's 'end of History' or the biblical heaven, neither of which I find worth aspiring to. Or perhaps I'm just not letting the peacemakers have their say.

162. Cult leader Pyotr Kuznetsov tries suicide after realising he was wrong about doomsday

Comment #156545 by keith on April 7, 2008 at 7:39 pm

Good grief, have I come to the right place? I was looking for RichardDawkins.net but seem to have wandered onto the set of some completely over-the-top opera instead - all this hand-wringing and flouncing off stage-left. Not to mention the encores.

There's been a disagreement over what constitutes humour. Big deal. Any chance we can all now just cut the histrionics and start behaving sensibly again? Please?

Yes, this is about as useful as the pope asking for world peace. It serves only to delineate his position, not to bring about any real changes in the world. Or like those who insist that football is just 22 men chasing a pigs bladder around. Yes, it is that - and so much more. We enjoy arguing. Why do you want to take our ball away?

163. Cult leader Pyotr Kuznetsov tries suicide after realising he was wrong about doomsday

Comment #156539 by keith on April 7, 2008 at 7:19 pm

I have no problem with D's content and style.

Well, that's good then.

164. Cult leader Pyotr Kuznetsov tries suicide after realising he was wrong about doomsday

Comment #156537 by keith on April 7, 2008 at 7:15 pm

I vagued out [Please, Steve, you're English, not a 1980s Californian]...Bag and tag...feel the wind in your rugs...You would not follow thru with the feelings...The lack of care is not that blanket with you...a half baked heirarchy...it was the equating was lame...Typing thru desert [The Sahara? Or dessert, perhaps?].

Since we're all being so 'inclusive', could we make a concession to somebody who doesn't understand this America-Speak. Can we agree to use English that is understood on both sides of the Atlantic and which doesn't make me squirm with vicarious embarrassment?

165. Cult leader Pyotr Kuznetsov tries suicide after realising he was wrong about doomsday

Comment #156525 by keith on April 7, 2008 at 6:32 pm

Styrer,

Diacanu, that was superb. Absolutely superb.

You must be of the Jack Kerouac school of writing where expression is all and content and style are secondary matters.

166. Cult leader Pyotr Kuznetsov tries suicide after realising he was wrong about doomsday

Comment #156333 by keith on April 7, 2008 at 10:57 am

Prankster,

You can choose to ignore this or reply that's your choice.

Surely this is always the case. Why would anyone need you to tell them this?

If anyone is offended, then sorry, I'll happily ask for the posts in question to be deleted or have them marked as troll/offensive/spam

Well, clearly one or two people were offended. Are you now going to ask for your comments to be withdrawn? I have to say that after so much fighting talk in your post it's rather odd to make such a cowering offer. Either you say what you want and damn the consequences or you give in to the over-sensitive. It seems to me that here you are doing both at the same time.

167. Cult leader Pyotr Kuznetsov tries suicide after realising he was wrong about doomsday

Comment #156321 by keith on April 7, 2008 at 10:32 am

Steve,

Just to clear things up, my initial comment to Corylus, which you perhaps thought was aimed at you, wasn't. I hadn't actually read any of your comments on this thread. It was just a general comment about certain seemingly innocent ways we have of taking the moral high ground. However, since you wanted to try on the hat, I thought I may as well make you wear it.

168. Cult leader Pyotr Kuznetsov tries suicide after realising he was wrong about doomsday

Comment #156190 by keith on April 7, 2008 at 4:02 am

Steve,

Unfortunately I recognise myself in that description.

I have to say Steve, so do I (i.e. recognise you in it). Your understanding of others' weaknesses often extends to great lengths, just not to the 'laughers'. Either you don't find, viscerally, anything remotely funny in the scenario of a self-appointed leader banging his head with a log after persuading others to spend months of their time in a damp cave, or, on an intellectual level, you refuse to let yourself find it funny. I suspect it's the latter.

Of course, the humour of the situation resides in who was doing the log-banging. In the same way that it would have been hilarious to see Adolf Hitler trip down the steps after delivering a speech at a Nuremberg rally (though it wouldn't have been funny to see your granny do the same), the fact that this man was the self-proclaimed leader of a daft religious cult who had been brought low by the sheer daftness of his beliefs surely contains enough humour for even you?

Of course, if it had been the inmate of a mental hospital it wouldn't have been remotely funny. And yes, for all we know this man could also be clinically insane. And so could Adolf Hitler.

Maybe it is moralising, but I don't see where point scoring comes in.

Really? Can't you see the appeal of gently telling people off for doing something that you yourself are above doing?

I would have hoped that we would have less "out-group" reaction to others and more empathy, and that we would be more questioning of our own reactions.

Once again, really? I think it's very laudable to try and be as nice to out-groups as possible, but don't you secretly cheer when Rowan Williams cocks up and is seen to do so? I can see your agenda Steve, but whatever happened to being human?

169. Cult leader Pyotr Kuznetsov tries suicide after realising he was wrong about doomsday

Comment #156180 by keith on April 7, 2008 at 3:11 am

Corylus,

The fact that people deal with reality in different ways does not mean that they are unfeeling; the opposite in fact.

You may be right and this could be a case of people trying to deal with something unpleasant. However, it also happens that some unpleasant things are inherently quite funny. Some people give vent to the ensuing impulse to laugh by, er, laughing. Others see in it the opportunity for some self-righteous moralising, a chance to score points by castigating anyone who dared to titter. These are people very like Michael Palin's lisping Roman leader in The Life of Brian and who are themselves figures of fun through their sheer po-facedness and self-importance.

170. Happy Birthday, Richard Dawkins!

Comment #154101 by keith on April 2, 2008 at 4:14 pm

Happy Birthday, Professor Dawkins!

171. The death-of-god debate

Comment #148451 by keith on March 23, 2008 at 5:50 am

And you know what I find truly wonderful? It's the human capacity to experience wonder.

Ye Gods, I think I'm going to be sick.

172. Don't blame Islam for terrorism, expert says

Comment #148435 by keith on March 23, 2008 at 4:34 am

Also, I'm from Vancouver too, and I agree. It's definitely not cool to say anything that could be considered offensive to muslims, or anything that would threaten our "multi-cultural" values. I'm beginning to realize that multiculturalism in its present form isn't all it's cracked up to be.

'Cool' must be one of the most annoying ideas around. You kind of hope that people will grow out of worshipping it once they leave their teens behind.

Am I wrong in thinking that 'cool' is an obsession only with north Americans or does the same phenomenon exist in other places, just under a different name?

173. Don't blame Islam for terrorism, expert says

Comment #148429 by keith on March 23, 2008 at 4:24 am

Hi Al,

I wasn't trying to insinuate the US policy is the sole, or even major cause.

Really? Why did I get the impression in our previous discussions that this is precisely what you were insinuating? Either I'm a sloppy reader or you're a sloppy writer. Which is it?

It seems to me that your general tactic is to make some very big statements but when taken to task (i.e. presented with some facts), you retreat several steps and rephrase. This backtracking continues until you are left in a position that only vaguely resembles where you were initially. And this is the problem. Often there is more than a grain of truth in what you say. I suspect that you aren't alone in feeling uneasy about some American foreign policy, especially of the Kissinger era and the Kissinger style. However, in trying to out-Chomsky Chomsky, you make some sweeping claims that then push some of us into defending US policy more vehemently than we otherwise might have done, simply as a means of counter-balancing the one-sidedness of your analysis.

That being said, we Americans should hold ourselves to a higher standard.

Why? Game theory tells us you are a fool to treat someone well who doesn't reciprocate. This is not to claim that the US has always or even often acted well. It is just to point out that insisting on such high-mindedness in a far from perfect world is a kind of hubris.

174. New Atheists Are Not Great

Comment #145910 by keith on March 18, 2008 at 9:46 am

While the chief atheists write beautifully, their works share a telling defect. They seethe with disapproval of God.

Yes, that really is a defect. Who would have thought that atheists would disapprove of the idea of god?

175. Two More Fleas

Comment #145885 by keith on March 18, 2008 at 9:16 am

Clearmind,

I am an English teacher so am used to listening to people who struggle to express themselves in English. The ones who have something to say can usually get their message across, albeit with hands and feet. Those who have little to say but like the sound of their own voices have bigger problems.

Perhaps this is your trouble. I'm damned if I can even work out if you're for or against the idea of evolution. From the incoherence of what you write and the lack of self-monitoring of you're mistakes, my guess is that you belong to the religious camp, but I could be wrong.

Either way, could you just try to get your message across before becoming creative with the English language? Your vocabulary is very good, but a limited ability to communicate plus scrambled thoughts = difficult job for the reader. Make it easy on us. Just say what you want to say and leave it at that.

Just look at one of your sentences:

"The evolution with HIS MIND AND INTELLIGENT WITH THE HELP OF BLINDWATCMAKER AND A LITTLE CHANCE WILL NOT BE HURT MAKE every snowflake differently"

This is something that I would probably give to a high level group of students with the words, "Okay, now put these words in the correct order to make a meaningful sentence. Two minutes. Go!".

By the way, calling yourself 'Clearmind' is tantamount to walking round with a placard that reads, 'I understand all and I see the world as it is'. Anybody who thinks this way about themselves can generally be summarily dismissed as a crackpot. How about a little more humility?

176. Fleabytes

Comment #143438 by keith on March 14, 2008 at 5:42 am

Al-Rwandi,

Just rewind a couple of days and just to put the record straight:

Keith once described my approach as:

"Terrier like diligence"

This was not intended as a compliment, but I don't doubt its accuracy.

What I actually said was "Terrier-like determination", (in this case, to prove that I don't speak Arabic).

I think diligence is always a good thing but determination not necessarily so.

Can terriers be diligent? I don't know.

177. Fleabytes

Comment #142614 by keith on March 12, 2008 at 9:09 pm

Peacebeuponme,

You do seem to show up a little bit of cabbie mentality in some areas though (I can imagine the audience of "The Big Questions" nodding furiously to some bits armed with their tabloid sensationalist view of the world).

You're right, I have noticed that tendency in myself, too. It almost seems to be a simple consequence of getting older: you begin to get a few wrinkles, you lose some hair and you start to move to the political right. It's as predictable as the seasons and is almost a biological rather than a cultural phenomenon.

In my university days I would have been embarrassed to hold a view that could also have been held by a Daily Mail reader. Now I'm not quite so precious. Being called a Guardian Reader would be much more of an insult to me nowadays.

What's wrong with giving kids any name they so choose?

What's wrong is that giving a child a unique, special name might get the child thinking that it is indeed unique and special and want to be treated as such. Of course, a name is just the most obvious and superficial clue of how the parents would like their child to grow up. The child's specialness will probably be consolidated by a whole raft of other parental strategies to make the child feel unique.

For half the year I live in Japan, and Japanese parents go out of their way to make sure that their children don't get ideas above their station - "The nail that sticks up gets hammered down" is a common phrase there - and the children are, in general, lovely. And perhaps not coincidentally, they also have traditional names that go back several generations.

I personally would like to see children given numbers rather than names. Something like ZR1 and ZR2 would be fine. They would then not have names like 'Sapphire' to live up to, and no grounds for feeling more special than KF15.

Picking up clues about people (or their parents) from their names is not a mystical art akin to astrology. At times it almost approaches a hard science. Ask any teacher. In class 'A' you find Tracy, Sharon, Kylie, Sabel, Ermine, Minx, Princess, Jason, Macauley, Brett, Stoat and Tundra. In class 'B' you have Emma, Charlotte, Sarah, Rachel, Daniel, Paul, Stephen, Richard, Sam and Thomas. Now, without giving any further information about the kids, ask the teacher which class he would prefer to teach. Unless she is the kind of teacher who makes her own clothes and calls herself a 'facilitator' rather than a teacher, or he has a ponytail and, despite not being a world-class snooker player, always wears a leather waistcoat in class, chances are they will choose to teach class B.

You're right, it isn't possible to predict with real accuracy what an individual will be like just from knowing their name. However, if they are called Brooklyn or Statten there is a strong statistical likelyhood of them behaving as though someone had directly injected 10mg of pure E-numbers into their veins shortly before arriving in class. This is because they are the direct descendants of people who thought that these were great names to give their children and they have all shared the same household for several years.

Of course, different names mean different things in different countries and at different times. Perhaps in California in 2010 the name 'Sabel' will conjure up the very geometry of dullness, whereas in Salford in 2008 it would be the height of exoticism.

Re your Finnish friends, I'm afraid that neither Jukka-Pekka nor Piia-Tuulia have any associations for me so I couldn't begin to tell you what kind of person they conjure up. However, a Fin might possibly be able to suggest one or two things which come to mind and this may coincide with what other Finnish people think. That is unless names don't follow fashions as they do in the UK (soap opera stars, footballers etc.)

Anyway, I'd have to say that both these Finnish names are incredibly exotic to my English ears and either one could be male or female. However, my money would be on Jukka-Pekka being male and Piia-Tuulia being female, simply because there are some hard consonants in the former and some soft vowels and consonants in the latter.

As to the phenomenon of surnames being used as christian names, I have never really thought about why I dislike it. Perhaps it smacks of wanting to climb the social ladder. It has the faint whisper of the pomposity of the landed gentry, something bad enough in itself, but worse still when adopted by a modern-day urbanite. I, for one, would not call my son Spencer or my daughter Taylor.

What actually started me off on this was wondering why Jennifer Michael Hecht's parents called her Michael. I had to ask myself what would move me to call my newly-born daughter Michael when there were plenty of nice girls' names to choose from. And try as I might, I couldn't dream up a feasible set of circumstances that would make me want to give my girl a boys' name. I'm not sure that you need to be a cabbie to ask yourself such questions.

Keith: Looking round at the teenagers that hang around on the streets of my town, most of them are holding a can of beer.

You're right, this might be something of an exaggeration. However, it is true that they are usually drinking something. I just don't get it. It's as though we were constantly in the middle of a heatwave. A can of something, anything, is almost as ubiquitous as a mobile phone these days. However, yesterday I did see a teenager who was neither drinking nor talking on his phone so I really shouldn't generalize. (Or perhaps he had no money and his phone was broken).

Peacebeuponme: As for teenagers drinking, I did a bit of street drinking when I was younger, but it was not a daily occurrence and caused little harm. I'd be interested to see the proportion of teenagers who actually do this regularly? I think the data would belie the accepted wisdom that all teenagers are drinking, causing trouble, crime is soaring, you can't leave your front door open any more etc etc.

No, not all teenagers do these things. Some are too lazy, physically can't through disability or are called Rebecca. But I'd have to disagree with you on your claim that teenage crime isn't going up. Actually, just to unfairly introduce some anecdotal evidence, five minutes before I turned up at my sister's house tonight she surprised a young lad who was stealing things out of their shed in the back garden (grey hooded top, jeans, about 5' 7", about 15 years old, just in case you see him). There's a couple of hundred pounds worth of tools and machinery gone. But you're right, one case doesn't make a trend. Even so, I don't think that even the government would dispute the fact that teenage crime is growing, and this is not simply a matter of better reporting.

Okay, enough. By the way, great game against Middlesborough last weekend. Cardiff looked like a proper team. No reason they shouldn't go on to win the F.A Cup itself. Anyway, good luck.

178. Fleabytes

Comment #142242 by keith on March 12, 2008 at 7:19 am

Peaceuponme,

Without deeming either the "on drugs/alcohol" experience or the "sober" experience as superior, Surely it is good to experience both? Everything in moderation and all that.

I completely agree. In fact, the book I'm reading at the moment is partly about the place that drugs have historically played in all societies and how we have a very illogical, puritan reaction to some kinds of stimulants while approving of others. (The Happiness Myth by Jennifer Michael Hecht. Incidentally, why would a little girl's parents give her a man's middle name? And why do Americans and some Brits nowadays give their children surnames as christian names? And why can nobody on British TV, especially BBC presenters, say the word 'hospital' properly? Its pronunciation has suddenly morphed into the baby-version 'hos-pit-aw').

The Doors of Perception by Aldous Huxley fascinated me when I was younger. I thought his experiences with mescalin showed the way to some real world that lay barely hidden, just beneath the surface of our mundane world. However, it was only when I read Bertrand Russell that I had to agree that chemical stimulants probably aren't doorways to a deeper reality but instead ways in which to fool your brain into seeing the world as it isn't. A bit like assuming that the world you experience while in bed with a fever is somehow more real than the world you see when you're in good health. But as you say, there's nothing wrong with lightening up a bit, becoming a little less self-conscious, even if it's just for a while and maybe getting a slightly different, less jaded perspective on things.

I'm not sure why I came over all anti-booze. The truth is that I still spend a lunchtime and an evening a week in the pub and really enjoy it. A pub quiz without a beer wouldn't be the same. It's simply that some people I know live down the pub and some of them become a bit boorish when they've had too much.

Looking round at the teenagers that hang around on the streets of my town, most of them are holding a can of beer. It just looks to me like they'd be bored if they weren't drinking and I don't think drinking should become a substitute for genuine interests and hobbies. It's that kind of drinking that I find depressing, not the occasional few pints down the pub while watching football on Sky with your mates.

By the way, I'm from Leicester so I'm afraid we have to make do with sub-Premiership football.

What did I miss? Well, oddly enough, I didn't really miss any of the discussions about atheism. I think you can only really sustain an interest in something that you're not 100% sure about. For this same reason there didn't seem to be much point in me reading Hitchens' book, 'God Is Not Great'. There is so much that I'm unsure about in the world that reading a book about why I shouldn't believe in god seemed a bit of a waste of time. Like Beckham reading about how to take a free kick. Even so, I did read it in the end, just so I could say that I had.

I think I find the Iraq discussions more stimulating precisely because I'm not sure of my position. All of my friends tell me that I'm wrong and that the best way to incite Islamic hatred was to invade an Islamic country and I have to admit, the logic seems undeniable. Even so, there is always a small voice in my head that says that these same people who claim a monopoly on concern for Iraqis, really didn't give much thought to those actually stuck there. And I disagree with the claim that to leave things as they were was a good solution. However, if I'm really honest, I know that I didn't and don't care enough about complete strangers in a faraway country to put my own life on the line. So, perhaps doing nothing really was the line I should have been advocating all along.

179. Fleabytes

Comment #142194 by keith on March 12, 2008 at 6:22 am

Aileen,

Feelings can never be accepbal as evidance, as feelings are the last resort of the religious mindset dose this mean debate with them is futile?

Yes, I think it pretty much does. Like an interest in anything else, I think a desire to see things as truly as you can must come from within. Trying to interest someone in the attractions of an evidence-based way of looking at things is like me trying to convince my friends that Elvis Costello is the best singer songwriter around. The more I try, the more they hate both me and Costello.

180. Fleabytes

Comment #142185 by keith on March 12, 2008 at 6:06 am

Whatthe..?,

Mr Sands would have us believe that moral values are relative. Yet in his very next line he proceeds to make an appeal to what he regards as a self-evidently objective moral value "you CAN'T just define something as an absolute". If Mr Sands was to be consistent he would have to believe that David CAN define anything the way he wants for, after all, all moral values are relative.

I think you're conflating two things. To say that moral values are relative is not the same as saying that truth and evidence are relative. The sentence, "you CAN'T just define something as an absolute" is not, as you claim, a statement about moral value. It is a statement about the nature of truth and evidence.

The moral values we hold are a result of us having evolved into humans. Had we evolved differently we would probably have evolved different ideas about what is moral. This suggests, at least to me, that values aren't absolute. But however we had evolved, the moon would still be 384,400kms from earth, even if we called kilometres by a different name or were unable, like fish, to measure the distance.

If you now wish to say that the fact that we value truth and evidence is relative then our own, and all conversations, can stop right here and now, since there is no statement of 'my own relative truth' too ridiculous for me to utter. "The slave trade was a piece of battenberg cake" might be one example of my own personal truth. However, if I wish to talk to people I have to restrict myself to shared assumptions about what is true. Basically, we have to share a respect for evidence. As the saying goes, "You're entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts".

181. Fleabytes

Comment #142150 by keith on March 12, 2008 at 4:36 am

Jiten,

I'm with you on this. Maybe we're the lucky ones. I also have problems fitting more than a couple of beers in, though looking down now at my stomach it certainly doesn't look like I should have that much of a problem.

I think, when I was younger, I was typical of most Brits. The only way to socialize in Britain is to go to the pub. There are few, if any, alternatives apart from Scottish Country Dancing at the village hall. However, around the age of 30 the novelty of going out once or twice a week, getting drunk, vomitting and feeling terrible the next day began to wear off (I'm a slow learner).

I didn't even really like the taste of beer, so it wasn't gluttony. Unlike most grown-ups, I have maintained a child's taste for food and drink throughout my life: basically, the sweeter the better. Although I didn't exactly shudder on taking my first drink of the evening, I couldn't help feeling the taste of beer would have been improved by adding four heaped tablespoons of Golden Syrup.

I think the pointlessness of drinking too much struck home when watching a documentary about some African (or South American?) tribe. The men were either falling-over drunk or stoned (I can't remember which) and presumably the women had to just put up with this regular state of affairs. Although the men no doubt felt great on the inside, from the outside they just looked a bit...stupid. And after that it was impossible not to see myself in the same light.

Since then I have come to the conclusion that people are generally more interesting when they aren't drunk and that there's a certain lack of imagination in turning to drink to fill your day. Without wanting to out-Dawkins Dawkins, life is usually interesting enough without artificial stimulants. I'm actually perfectly happy just staring zombie-like at the carpet, either watching motes of dust drifting through the sunlight (my flat needs a clean) or just thinking about...things.

My best mate, on the other hand, always has to be doing something and it usually involves drink. I have no idea which one of us is the happier or which one lives an objectively better life, if there is such a thing. He thinks I waste a lot of my time 'doing nothing' and I think he's in a restless race against time to fit in as much as possible before he dies. Time, he feels, is to be used profitably, not wallowed in or reflected upon. And drinking, like smoking and eating too much, is just one more way of doing something with your time, of feeling 'busy'.

182. Fleabytes

Comment #142019 by keith on March 11, 2008 at 3:32 pm

Hi peacebeuponme,

Yes, my posts tend to be like British buses: they either come all at once or not at all. Has anything happened while I was away, something worthy of a soap opera? Has Dr. Benway changed sex again? Has Steve come even closer into focus? Has Mind Rebel returned from self-imposed exile nuttier than ever? Anyway, nice to see you're still here.

183. Fleabytes

Comment #141994 by keith on March 11, 2008 at 2:23 pm

fides_et_ratio,

Whilst there are many in AA who don't believe in God, there are many more who have found freedom from alcoholism as a result of developing a relationship with their Higher Power in prayer.

Should've added that the wisdom of many people of faith is another factor in helping to persuade me of the truth of God's existence.

Let me get this straight. You're putting forward the fact that some mind-befuddled alcoholics turn to God during re-hab as a reason for, rather than against, believing in Him. Have I got that right? This is a bit like saying that the reason you believe in God is because your dotty aunt Jess, whose life unravelled decades ago and now lives with her 14 cats, once saw God boarding a train to Scunthorpe just after the end of WWII. You must agree, it's hardly convincing stuff. Soon you'll be wheeling on the fact that some silly, self-important old men who enjoy growing their beards long and dressing up in long, flowing robes as evidence for God. If this counts as evidence for the existence of God, then so does the fact that my printer is playing up again (infuriatingly).

Incidentally, what does 'developing a relationship with their Higher Power in prayer', actually mean? How can you write such stuff without cringing with embarrassment? Do you have the remotest idea of what you're talking about? Is this 'Higher Power' God, or is it what some of us would call 'will power'? (note, no capitals). In what way is it their Higher Power? Is it then something inside them? If so, what's wrong with the word 'determination'?

184. 12 Year Old Girl Prodigy Paints Pictures of God

Comment #141974 by keith on March 11, 2008 at 1:39 pm

Wow21,

We generally know that an exam-sitter has copied the person next to them by the number of wrong answers they have in common rather than the right ones. For this reason you simply must also be 'country girl'. Why the change of identity?

Anyway, your approach is to presume the girl innocent of lying until proven guilty. This is a fine attitude, though one that, of course, has its limits. Simply because someone claims to be Napoleon reincarnated doesn't make it so. By the same token, simply because a young girl claims to paint like an expert doesn't make it true, though neither does it make it untrue. It's just unlikely.

Either way, whoever painted these pictures certainly had the tritest possible imagination and since 12-year-olds aren't well-known for their sophistication of taste then you could be right and she really might be the author of this 1980's-influenced kitsch. We can only hope that her artistic taste catches up with her technical prowess as she gets older.

Incidentally, will it surprise you if it turns out that this is not all her own work? Will it make you wonder what other things you've accepted as fact 'ain't necessarily so'?

185. Fleabytes

Comment #140823 by keith on March 8, 2008 at 5:15 pm

Paula,

I came to your article late so this doesn't bear on any of the comments in the thread.

Just very very good. I don't understand how you even managed to begin. Actually reading and reviewing four such books must have been like sitting down to eating a hundred-weight of aspic. I mean, where do you start? One revolting spoonful at a time, I suppose. And how to stop annoyance-levels from rising so high that instead of writing a coherent critique, you end up simply typing out "You smug, dishonest, willfully-misleading ****!!!" over and over again?

I think the sheer immensity of the task, plus the almost certain knowledge that none of the four 'writers' (ha ha) has sufficient honesty to recognise any of the shortcomings pointed out in your review would have been more than enough to defeat me, and most other people, before even making a start.

Anyway, I now feel that I don't have to waste weeks of reading time simply in the cause of being fair-minded since you've done that for me. So, thanks and congratulations on really nicely written piece.

186. Ayaan Hirsi Ali asks for protection

Comment #133497 by keith on February 26, 2008 at 8:42 am

Al Rwandi,

You never mentioned where you learned to speak Arabic?

I ask because you made some potentially (racially) inflammatory remarks about Moroccans, just hoping for a response there.

Firstly, whether or not I speak Arabic has absolutely nothing to do with whether my comments were racist or not. A racist can be either monolingual or a polyglot.

Secondly, my comments about having been nearly robbed by Moroccans in Barcelona was simply a fact. As I have already mentioned, this group of men looked like Arabs, spoke Spanish with Arabic accents and told us they were from Morocco. I can't see where the racism here lies. Also, whether or not they were Arabic or Berber Moroccans is neither here nor there (despite what Hugh might think). Neither is whether or not they were practising Muslims relevant (despite what you might think). Neither of these points had anything to do with what I was saying and, incidentally, supports the point I made in my last post that you seem to have an awful job keeping you eye on precisely what is relevant to an argument and what isn't.

About Hugh's question and my answer,

Hugh: You speak Arabic and can identify an Arab from a Berber Moroccan accent or any of the other accents of the Arab world?

Me: Yes. Next question.

It never occurred to me that anyone might take this seriously. I have been posting on this website since it started and it would have been odd if I had never mentioned my mastery of Arabic and my ability to differentiate an Arabic Moroccan from a Berber Moroccan accent. I thought the question was so silly and beside the point that a throwaway answer was the best reply. Clearly you were taken in. For that I'm willing to apologize, because I also dislike it when people move from serious to kidding without making this clear.

However, perhaps you should have known that this was possibly a joke since only one or two days prior to this I had asked you what Al-Rwandi meant. A bit of a giveaway really.

Apart from that, it only really makes sense to lie if you think you might get away with it. Knowing your terrier-like determination on some points, it would have been overly-optimistic of me to assume that I could claim such dominance of Arabic and then never be challenged on it by you. Surely you must have guessed this? No?

Either way, now that everybody knows that I don't speak Arabic perhaps we can drop the subject, otherwise I can see this topic becoming a thread in its own right on this site.

187. Ayaan Hirsi Ali asks for protection

Comment #131861 by keith on February 23, 2008 at 1:28 pm

mwd,

I had precisely the same experience with Al a week or two ago. I would point to something he had previously said and Al would either misunderstand it, ignore it, or accuse me of twisting his words. He suffers from a kind of 'selective understanding'.

For a couple of days we argued, not so much with each other as past each other, before we realised that a common language isn't always enough. Trying to have a coherent discussion with Al was like playing soccer with someone who insists on picking up the ball, tucking it under his arm, and running with it as fast as he can towards your goal. You're left standing open-mouthed and lost for words.

188. Ayaan Hirsi Ali asks for protection

Comment #131838 by keith on February 23, 2008 at 12:21 pm

Diacanu,

Tch, the poor bitch is still having to beg?

Aw come on.
It wasn't derogatory.
If it were a guy, I'd say poor bastard.
I 'unno, it's just something ya say...

Well, it might be something you say but to my ears it sounds like a moronic and disrespectful way of expressing yourself.

Perhaps it's not a case of Mejdrich loosening up but of you learning to express yourself more appropriately.

189. Why multiculturalism must be abandoned

Comment #125932 by keith on February 12, 2008 at 9:35 am

So you are advocating exactly what is govt. policy in many countries? So you want to maintain the status quo?

Ever see Children of Men?

Yes, yes, and no. Were these the correct answers?

190. Why multiculturalism must be abandoned

Comment #125931 by keith on February 12, 2008 at 9:30 am

They don't have the mental capacity to "understand", due to neurological imbalance, cycle of abuse, or combination of both.

Would they have the mental capacity to understand if there was a policeman standing next to the child?
Hmm. Funny that. All of a sudden they do understand. Where's the neurological imbalance when there are adults around?

191. Why multiculturalism must be abandoned

Comment #125927 by keith on February 12, 2008 at 9:22 am

?

@Keith

I am just curious...how would you decide whom to send to Morocco

Well Octopus, I was thinking of Moroccans. And in particular, those that can't behave themselves.

I don't know if you're getting at the example of the Moroccans in Barcelona or the Muslims that call for sharia law in England. In the case of the Muslims in England, what I said was more of an argument to persuade than a thought-through government policy to be implemented next week. You know when you're trying to make a point and you say things like, "If you don't like it, you know what you can do"? You're kind of hoping that the other person will see sense and drop their claims. Actually having to physically remove people from the country wouldn't be my idea of a good time. I would hope that before things reached such a point someone amongst them would see reason and drop any ideas of turning Britain into a country with sharia law. And as Steve has pointed out, since many of these people are British anyway, where would you send them? So, it was more of a rhetorical device than anything.

In the case of Barcelona, I'd be more than happy to deport anyone with a Moroccan passport who committed a criminal act back to Morocco.

192. Why multiculturalism must be abandoned

Comment #125917 by keith on February 12, 2008 at 8:59 am

Also there is an assumption that these Moroccans were religious Muslims.

Not from me. Whether or not they were religious never crossed my mind.

How did we know they were Moroccans? Because they told us while we were having our cosy chat with their hands in our pockets.

The fact that they said they were Moroccans, they looked like Moroccans, Moroccans make up the largest immigrant community in Barcelona and spoke Spanish with Arabic accents made me think they might be Moroccans.

Was I being too hasty in thinking so?

By the way, my friend Lucy lives in a poor part of Barcelona and we often hear and see tourists being robbed by Moroccans from her flat. They stand on the corner and wait for either an unsuspecting tourist or someone on their own who looks foreign to walk past.

Lucy knows them quite well because they robbed her when she first moved in. When they found out that she actually lived in the area they left her alone (residents have a habit of going to the police and can hang around to identify culprits whereas tourists can't). Now Lucy knows several of them by name and chats with them.

So, no false accusations on my part.

And yes Al-Rwandi, I also found their Arabic incomprehensible.

193. Why multiculturalism must be abandoned

Comment #125906 by keith on February 12, 2008 at 8:40 am

Tyler Durden,

Reverend, can I just point out that paedophilia is a disease, much like alcoholism.

Is paedophilia different in kind from other sexual orientations like hetero-sexuality and homosexuality? In what sense is paedophilia a disease and the other two aren't?

194. Why multiculturalism must be abandoned

Comment #125894 by keith on February 12, 2008 at 8:26 am

You speak Arabic and can identify an Arab from a Berber Moroccan accent or any of the other accents of the Arab world?

Yes. Next question.

195. Why multiculturalism must be abandoned

Comment #125891 by keith on February 12, 2008 at 8:24 am

I am not sure where you can rent the sheep costume (or what the cleaning charge will be...)

John's Sex Shop
48 Main Street
Worcester
Worcestershire
WO4 8HC

£9.50 (inc. VAT)

(At least, this is what I remember the price being when I was there last August).

196. Why multiculturalism must be abandoned

Comment #125884 by keith on February 12, 2008 at 8:15 am

I am just against telling a significant proportion of the population that if they don't like things, they can leave.

I lived in Barcelona for four years and being robbed by Moroccans was a daily risk. One day, when walking through the streets with three friends, a group of Moroccans approached us and under the guise of being friendly, put their arms around us and started searching our pockets for money. We managed to extracate ourselves from them without losing anything and the Spanish girl who was with us told them, in quite a reasonable tone, that if they couldn't behave, maybe they should go back to Morocco.

My very liberal English friend thought that this was a terrible thing for her to have said and felt bad about it for a while afterwards. (Months before two Moroccans had spat on his jacket and then tried to steal his wallet in a pretence of cleaning off the phlegm. Here he was equally understanding). Would you agree with him? Was it an awful thing to say? At what point does niceness and tolerance become self-satisfied smugness? At what point do you actually invite being abused?

197. Why multiculturalism must be abandoned

Comment #125872 by keith on February 12, 2008 at 7:52 am

Al-Rwandi,

I simply don't believe that people can't control their feelings. I'm attracted to women but I manage not to rape every one I come across. This is because I take other people's feelings into consideration. My desires don't trump other people's rights to be left in peace. I can't see why things are different for paedophiles.

198. Why multiculturalism must be abandoned

Comment #125866 by keith on February 12, 2008 at 7:42 am

Annabanana,

Just yesterday at lunch, one of my superiors made the comment that pedophiles should all just be killed because there isn't any way to cure them. It just amazes me that there are people who hold these opinions.

I'm sorry but mentioning paedophilia in the same breath as homosexuality is odd. One of them is fine, the other isn't. I have every sympathy for men who are sexually attracted to kids but my sympathy stops once they start acting on this attraction. Most of us manage to keep our sexual desires within reasonable limits and don't force ourselves upon unwilling parties, especially someone as defenseless as a child. I can't help thinking that anyone that callous doesn't really deserve much sympathy. To brutally trample over the wishes of another person, especially a defenseless child, takes a certain kind of person. I'm sure you feel the same.

In the end it just comes down to the degree of punishment that we think is appropriate. For you perhaps a few months or years in prison is reasonable. For your superior, capital punishment seems about right since there is such a high reoffending rate among paedophiles. Neither view seems to me beyond comprehension.

199. Why multiculturalism must be abandoned

Comment #125854 by keith on February 12, 2008 at 7:13 am

Steve,

babrock: For me, it was the impression that Muslims were somehow not part of my country. The particular language that concerted me was the attempt to differentiate between "indigenous" and "Muslim" cultures. I feel terms like this are not only unhelpful, but wildly inaccurate. Not only has there has been a significant Muslim population in the UK for centuries but, as Hari points out, there are a range of cultures that are labelled "Muslim".

Like MaxD, I'd like to see some figures on this 'significant Muslim population in the UK for centuries'. The reason I'm interested is that, as you probably know, I live most of my life in Japan. Now, imagine that one day I get married and have a child (with an English woman) and my child grows up in Japan. At home, we eat pretty much the same things we do in England. My child would be neither Shinto nor Buddhist but probably atheist. Would you then baulk at the distinction between an indigenous child of Japanese parents who eats rice all day and sleeps on tatami floors and futons, and my own child who eats shepherd’s pie, supports Arsenal and wears M&S clothes? And if my family stayed in Japan for several generations and in the meantime were joined by other families from England, all of whom clung to the 'British' ways of doing things, would your hackles raise at anyone who dared suggest that our Anglophone enclave was any less 'Japanese' than the indigenous Japanese population? Even worse, if I tried to get laws changed in Japan to suit my way of life, would it be wrong for a Japanese person to say, 'If our laws don't suit you, you can always go to England where they do suit you'?

Don't misunderstand me. I don't want to suggest that Britishness is either monolithic or unchangeable. However, I think that my German, Spanish and Japanese friends would think it odd if I claimed that halal meat, praying to Allah and wearing veils were just as typically British as roast beef, cricket and beer. It might sound very unjingoistic, inclusive and 'helpful' to do so, but would it be true? Does the term 'indigenous population' mean anything to you and if so, why would either everyone or no one in Britain qualify for this term? Is it nonsensical to say that Kenji Tanaka is indigenous to Japan while I'm not?

200. Why multiculturalism must be abandoned

Comment #125565 by keith on February 11, 2008 at 3:43 pm

That's great. Say something really stupid (without meaning to) and then call it 'starting a necessary debate' when it all goes pear-shaped. The logic is the same as that behind the Intelligent Designers' call for 'Teaching the Controversy'. There is no ID controversy to teach and there is no debate to be had about the role of Sharia law in Britain. Punto.

I have to say that Rowan Williams sunk even lower in my estimation today when he blamed not himself for saying something daft but everyone else for misunderstanding him. But even he realised this was a bit rich. So, instead of accepting responsibility for his unthought-out statement on the one hand or denying all blame on the other, he chose the middle way of accepting the negligible misdemeanour of expressing himself unclearly, which, as he rightly knows, is really no crime at all.

This is the strategy exposed in 'The Winslow Boy'. When accused of a serious crime the best thing to do is admit to a lesser one and you will appear honest and people might not notice what you've done (the boy in the movie proves his innocence by not resorting to such slippery tactics). I'm sure some people will actually call Williams 'brave' for admitting to an imperfect grasp of English. The truth is that the man is a dishonest, sneaky rat.