151. 12 Year Old Girl Prodigy Paints Pictures of God

Comment #197911 by Roland_F on June 22, 2008 at 10:03 pm

"Deeply insightful" poems and paintings ... well there were some high priced modern art paintings which were done from a 4ton Elephant or some paint smearing of a 3 year old kid mentioned from critics as very insightful impressions of an artist concerned about the state of planet earth.

There are many talented kids, some very intelligent finish their high school with 11 years, some genius musicians 6 years old and the like, so it's not necessary a miracle from God if some teenager is able to produce (technical) sophisticated paintings.

Investigating the webpage of the art dealer will not necessary reveal the truth about the painter, of course God inspired paintings of a kid sell for a higher price than the product of a professional copyist in Thailand who is mass producing paintings for tourists.

At least this kind of motive makes the cardinal archbishop of Cologne in Germany Joachim Meisner happy, he was stating some month back that all art which is not focusing on God is "Entartete Kunst" (the Nazi term for all art they considered degenerated).

The paintings seems more inspired more from the puberty dreams of a 12 year old girl mixed with religious motives.

152. Oystein Elgaroy - the Christian defender who became an Atheist

Comment #195298 by Roland_F on June 18, 2008 at 3:13 am

98. Comment #195293 by pobalob : In fact, to me it's suddenly quite interesting if someone recognises religion is superstitious yet still feels the comfort of holding onto it. I wonder why so.

You wonder not alone ....
Possible explanations:

Hiding behind mama and searching protection of papa feels just so consoling at a small kid, and theists just need this virtual protection from mother Mary or from an old wise man with white beard in the sky because humans are premature born apes with slow or permanently delayed adulthood.

Consciousness of human mortality. Most religions or quasi religious teachings (Buddhism) are addressing the human fear with some rebirth as holy cow, rebirth as another human, wondering spirits of the dead warriors, eternal heaven for the faithful and the like.

Reinforcing the consolation with a combination of fear: fear of sinful thoughts, fear of leaving/loosing the faith, fear of eternal hellfire. And the most effective indoctrination is the random combination of fear and love.

The human brain has evolved to recognize patterns and is searching for easy explanations. So when the explanation is not easy visible or scientifically complex, no problem: GODDIDIT.
So this pattern seeking leads to all kind of superstition, I win in the lottery because I pray for it, I win the game because of my rabbit paw and when I forgot it last time I lost, the hurricane hit this city because of a lesbian artist residing there etc.

Humans are evolved to love someone, and this can be the love of God more than anything else.

So combine this all : love & fear & protection & consolation and voila you have the easy inroads and reinforces for the religious mind virus and meme complex.

153. Oystein Elgaroy - the Christian defender who became an Atheist

Comment #195234 by Roland_F on June 18, 2008 at 12:53 am

Dear professor Oystein first welcome to the bright side !

50. Comment #195211 by Loke Having been raised as a Christian, I felt like I was betraying my family by giving up my faith. I think I might not be the only one to have this experience.

The position of childish theist with their tooth fairy and Santa Claus like faith into adulthood must be outed as so ridiculous that it's more shameful betraying logic and reason as betraying the Bronze Age myth.

about my looks. I am painfully aware of it

The sign of a testosterone laden male, the bald head is the solar panel of a sex machine.

154. Saving Us from Darwin

Comment #195207 by Roland_F on June 17, 2008 at 10:32 pm

147. Comment #194704 by ketch22

It is a common known fact that the majority of skeptics and theologians alike maintain that the Gospels are an accurate historical account of the man, Jesus

Only hard core fundamentalists still think of the Gospels as accurate history. Read them in parallel and you will find the many differences and contradictions about anything. Investigate Luke's Christmas story : there was never a (Roman) empire wide census, Herod the great died long before (4 BC) of a local Syrian census (6AD). The accounts of the last day before crucification are all different, written from unknown persons who never met Jesus, who even don't reside in Judea/Israel during their writings. So someone must be very ignorant or apologetic to belief this as historical fact.

I believe the resurrection occurred, one of the greatest miracles

As is the resurrection of Horus, Osiris, and many others deities or half Gods during these times. And in the Gospel of Mark the story is ending with the empty tomb, no resurrection which was added only centuries later.

the supposed influence of Greco-Roman mythology on the gospels, but scholars today realize that this influence is virtually non-existent

Mon Dieu what a nonsense ! Check the Horus myth : crucified in-between 2 criminals, Horus the way, the light the truth, walking over water and performing miracles, born from a virgin (like most deities this time around) lying in a manger and 3 wise men coming, a star is showing the way etc… Petra (= Petrus, Peter) the foundation and gate keeper . To this Egyptian myth mix some Persian and Greek myth all centuries or millennia before Jesus time and voila you have the Gospels. And this should be "virtually non existence influence" ?! Hahahaha

And you claim "I have studied theological history" ? just reading 2 books written from apologist authors for gullible apologist readers doesn't make you a historian at least no on this forum here.
Read some proper history books !

155. Saving Us from Darwin

Comment #194625 by Roland_F on June 17, 2008 at 5:07 am

126. Comment #194352 by ketch22 : If you can show me how Jesus/Truth has changed, I will submit

Then read something about history of the early church !
There you find all kinds of changes in the interpretation of Jesus from a mortal human (Ebonite), to some purely metaphysical ghost not to be taken as literal existing (Gnostics) the holy ghost entering a body of Jesus and leaving the mortal body "why have you forsaken me" during crucification. Marcionites were considering 2 God's where Yahweh took unauthorized power and created the imperfect world and ruled it very immoral jealous and genocidal. The true God send his son Jesus to wrestle the world for the humans back from Yahweh by faking Jesus dead to get Yahweh reliving all human sins.

Read about the many controversies about the substance of God, the son and the Holy Ghost, formerly mainstream Bishops like Origen are suddenly heretics. Read about the Arian "heretic" controversies and infights of the early church about the divinity of Jesus. Learn about the controversies about divine priority: if the son is of lower status or substance then God etc.

After the Nicaea Bishops could not agree on this, the divinity of Jesus was finally decided from the emperor Constantine : a worldly emperor decides the divinity status ( !! ) to solve the deadlock and to create a common uniting religion in a disintegrating empire.

There is tons of interesting literature out there, just read it before claiming you know the "theological history".

156. Vatican bans Dan Brown film Angels & Demons from Rome churches

Comment #194516 by Roland_F on June 16, 2008 at 10:39 pm

Another movie which will be censored in the catholic country I am residing. The powerful RC church already prevented any screening in cinemas of The da Vinci Code.
And nice to know that the Vatican is considering a wrong street name in a fiction novel as falsity whereas stealing antimatter from CERN, flying in Hypersonic Mach-8 Jets unnoticed from the public is not ?!

Misc. Comments by FightingFalcon :
Somehow you are contradicting yourself: The historical Jesus really existed there is no doubt, and then you rowing back from that statement more and more. Indeed the Jesus mentioned from Josephus was added most likely after/during Constantine's reign. Others 'historians' are not eyewitness coming much later and practical copy the myth from the Gospels, and even the earliest source Saul/Paul 50 AD has never met Jesus and never quote his saying. And the saying of Jesus in Mathew or Luke (sermon of the mount, sermon of the plains) is Gospel writer's copies of OT writings.

MPHIL: some good overview of the history with all the infight, struggles for power influence and alleged 'heresies' of Bishops you can find in "The early church" from Henry Chadwick. About the completely different streams of the church int the first centuries Bart Ehrman's "Lost Christianities" gives a good overview.

157. Holiday in Hellmouth

Comment #193833 by Roland_F on June 16, 2008 at 5:50 am

230. Comment #193831 by phil rimmer

What if he is actively hiding?

There is a nice answer from Victor Stenger to this: a God who is hiding can't interact or listen to prayer and is not interested in his 'creation' and is therefore irrelevant.

158. Holiday in Hellmouth

Comment #193829 by Roland_F on June 16, 2008 at 5:24 am

That God is outside time and space was already discussed from St. Anselm of C. a millennia ago, therefore the question what God did before creating the universe is obsolete, or as some stories go St Anselm answered God created hell for people who asked this question.

So as God is outside space and time he even can't be inside this universe and can't influence miracles or listen to prayer. I am anyway surprised why most Christians are attending church on Sundays when God has his day off and is not listening anyway, maybe that's why theist even post here on Sundays.

About the God is working in the forth space dimension or some apologetic arguments frequently stated from theists: there can only be 3 macro space dimensions, otherwise planetary movements would not be stable. The maximum 'medium' space dimension would be the size of an electron 1/10**15 meter beside string theory Planck length curled-up dimensions. So how should we interpret the Bible stories then: Abraham was walking along with God who is the size of an electron, through the Judean desert and negotiated with him the fate of Lot in Sodom.

159. George W Bush meets Pope amid claims he might convert to Catholicism

Comment #193670 by Roland_F on June 15, 2008 at 10:11 pm

GWB as a possible convert: would really fit a war criminal 'Darth Vader' is joining the dark site of the force, headed from 'the emperor' Papa Ratzi.

About the ongoing discussion if a forced member of HJ is a Nazi: In totalitarian societies all families are pressured into enrolling their kids for indoctrination into the youth organizations. This could be the communist former East German FDJ, or equivalent organizations of the former Soviet Union or it can be the Christian fundamentalist requiring getting the child for the first 5 or 7 years for permanent indoctrination. So don't blame the victim.

Papa Ratzi could be properly called the Great Inquisitor as he was ruling the 'congregation of the true faith' as hardliner with iron fist before becoming pope. And this 'congregation of the true faith' is the descendant of the papal inquisition office.

160. Intelligent people 'less likely to believe in God'

Comment #192367 by Roland_F on June 12, 2008 at 10:08 pm

58. Comment #192300 by Jack Rawlinson

http://hypnosis.home.netcom.com/iq_vs_religiosity.htm

Thanks fort he link, so this is he kind of statistic IQ versus importance of religion for persons several posters here were looking for.

The example of Indonesia shows that in the very secular/moderate Islamic state, the IQ can still be high despite high emphasis on religion from the majority of residents. However until 10 years ago it was a secular dictatorship, so the trend towards more faith might reduce future IQ test results over the time.
Other countries like Nigeria fallen behind, likely wise because of the poor education and not necessary because of religious devotion.

So as many other posters have mentioned here, the IQ is not the only factor but also based on the ability to receive an unbiased education.

And when the Christian doctrine is starting in Genesis with the worst eternal sin of eating from the tree of knowledge, or Mathew 5:3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven"; we can see where this downward trend of education is coming from.

After orthodox Christianity become mainstream under Constantine the peaceful and meek religion turned into a tool for suppressing believers from the emperor. After Christianity became state religion end of the 4th century AD the first actions were the book burnings to erase the over millennia accumulated knowledge all over Greece and Egypt. The classic Greece philosophy was only preserved and reintroduced from the Islamic invaders of Spain.
Now we see this trend of fighting education from fundamental Islamists: the once mighty Islamic empire leading in astronomy and other sciences, got more and more religious and missed the technical advance of Europe. And now instead of catching up with 'the West' fundamentalist preach the fall of the Islamic empire can be reversed by more religious devotion and less education. So for the Taliban's Allah can be pleased with the length of the beard as sign for devotion to gain back Allah's support and to world hegemony.

161. Surviving an unholy school war

Comment #181992 by Roland_F on May 19, 2008 at 4:10 am

The beating of children seems to be quite a fundamentalist Christian, not only Catholic pattern.
I come along several post of parents describing the belting of their children during the last month following links here to other fora and here at RD.Net testimonies of victims, describing of being locked into the cabinet by their Bible belt parents and have to recite Bible psalms in the dark.

When it would not be priest acting in the name of God, these sadistic teachers and pedophile priest would be in jail, but often enough the victims and their parents are shy or mobbed from the neighbors if speaking out against the 'holy men'.

What these sadistic persons (priest and brutal parents alike) fail to understand is that the most submissive and intensive/ long lasting love and fear of God is achieved by randomize beating and hugging, so the victim is never sure what comes next and is especially devote. Only beating or only love is not achieving the maximal long lasting indoctrination. So maybe the Vatican should stronger announce these guidelines to achieve maximal indoctrination.

162. Richard Dawkins Responds to Rabbi Shmuley Boteach

Comment #181976 by Roland_F on May 19, 2008 at 1:54 am

86. Comment #181903 by Muetze

But I also think that the simple underlying factoid is true: Adolf Hitler was an atheist

Who will ever know what was going on in the sick mind of Hitler ?
I would be not so sure at all that he was really atheists. His book 'Mein Kampf' was full of religious topics or 'fulfilling God's will' as were his official speeches. The only quote mentioned from theist to support the atheism claim here, comes from the questionable source of table talks document and it's 1 against hundreds of religious quotes.
Also the time factor might have an influence: possible after the Stalingrad disaster Hitler changed his mind about fulfilling God's will and 'Gottliche Vorsehung' (divine protective support).

Anyway, the main topic is not what Hitler really thought, which seems unknowable , but that he found fertile ground on the religious soil for his anti Semitism nurtured from the New Testament and Christian dogma for 2 millennia.

Hitler gained the full support of Germany's main churches and of the Vatican (as did Mussolini and Franco).
And even after the capitulation the church heavily supported the holocaust perpetrators including Adolf Eichmann and aided their escape with false Vatican travel documents (see Michael Onfray's book and the resources mentioned there).

So these are the main topics (fertile ground, church support) which are drowning in the wrong discussion about Hitler's thoughts, which should be discussed.

163. Group finds Starbucks logo too hot to handle

Comment #180867 by Roland_F on May 16, 2008 at 1:51 am

Oh no, these faithheads have really too much fantasy in their misery cult with suppresses sexuality.

Just because Saul/Paul of Tarsus had a problem, attributed to a suppressed homosexuality or impotence and he hated himself, all women and all sexuality, lust, fun and enjoyment -- he preached his misery so that all should become self hating like him.
And now 2 billion Christians (and much more billions over the last 2 millennia) follow his self hating, woman despising misery cult and feel offended from any hint of sexuality.

164. The Neural Buddhists

Comment #179855 by Roland_F on May 13, 2008 at 10:04 pm

David Brooks, a science expert of NY Times ??

Maybe he better comments on Golf tournaments or some other staff instead this crap he writes together misinterpreting Selfish Genes, mixing neuro-science with Buddhism etc.
Yes when you meditate like a deep self-hypnosis the frontal lobes have less activity in the MRI -- but is this proof the soul is reaching the Buddhist nothingness of total interconnectedness ?

And why can counter religious arguments can only come from Buddhist scientists and not atheist scientists ?

What a crap !

165. Americans pray at the pump for cheaper petrol

Comment #179217 by Roland_F on May 12, 2008 at 10:31 pm

40. Comment #179214 by BW022

etc. might have something to do with the fact that gas is expensive?

In October last year an analyst commenting on the subprime crisis was predicting that the hedge funds will now jump on oil price speculations and push it up (from 80$ then) to far above 100$.
In the end this guy was right, speculation push it up and reasons about Nigeria unrest, Huga Chavez farting etc.. is just some excuse.

166. Americans pray at the pump for cheaper petrol

Comment #179215 by Roland_F on May 12, 2008 at 10:26 pm

39. Comment #179213 by GordonYKWong

eh? there seems to be a resiliance to tetra's message about Peak Oil.

yes when they come under a topic of religious violence, 'Expelled' trash movie etc... where the discussion has nothing to do with Oil at all.

167. Americans pray at the pump for cheaper petrol

Comment #179207 by Roland_F on May 12, 2008 at 9:52 pm

I have seen this article already 2 weeks ago and wonder why it was not posted earlier here and where is the long sermon about peak oil from Tetramonis and the 200$ per barrel crude prediction for next year ?
.
In Germany gas (extra, super, premium, gold whatever you call it) is 1.50 Euro per liter = 8.80$ per gal , so the 4$ per gallon far too cheap in the US for the gas guzzlers.

Yes prayer is solving all the problems, like in Philippines where last year after some later than expected monsoon rain season, the Catholic church ordered everyone to pray for rain. After 3 weeks delay based on changed climate (El Nino) the usual rain was setting in and fulfilled the monthly quota within a week resulting in heavy flooding. Currently the Philippinos have to pray for cheaper rice, the president who used the fertilizer funds not to fertilize rice fields as allocated, but funneled the fund into her election campaign and vote buying is now leading the prayer campaign for cheaper rice.
But it's all God's will of course,at least a good excuse for the ruling elite.

168. Research Volunteers Needed

Comment #175263 by Roland_F on May 5, 2008 at 3:44 am

This questionnaire seems to be done with the hot needle; at least the 'D' has 2 times the same question with
#23 : I like to look at my body.
#24 : I like to look at my body.
And another one is quite similar (control question ?)
#45 : I like to look at myself in the mirror.

Possibly the 4 sets are to find out the most consistent 'black and white' answers for each group

17. Comment #175251 by DLed
it is comparatively not that interesting to observe, where the "belief centers" are, but rather, how they form, and what the mechanism is

A test like this was announced in another tread here in January, it's about finding out lies and self-deceptions via MRI. During answering the questions, the MRI should reveal if the answer is first intuitive given as nonbeliever (like virgin birth or resurrection myth) and then overwritten from another brain region 'religious center' in self-deception before giving the answer 'yes the virgin birth is true' .

169. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #171835 by Roland_F on April 28, 2008 at 10:51 pm

1629. Comment #171676 & 1626. Comment #171648 by TheTruthID

The offspring which did not inherit the prior mutation, though did have a different mutation (the number 4 on a dice) which gave it a little longer neck, thus making it more adaptable to reaching the necessary food source. This resulted in the ability of the number 4 dice to survive through the natural selection process more advantageously then the number 6 dice.
I feel, the 12 Dice scenario isn't effective as a clear understanding of this process.

Hi Adam,
to make it more clear maybe we should put colors as identification to the dice, and the color would mark a specific genetic tread.
So lets say yellow dice for length of the neck and red dice for eyesight, and the best fit is still '6' .
So the yellow dice high numbers have some advantage for long neck to reach food on higher trees, the red dice for good eyesight to see predators. And the most individuals of these species survive and can replicate who have the highest numbers for the yellow and red dice. So you can complicate this analogy with more colors for longer legs to escape, better digestive system, lower energy consumption or whatever other factors.
And when you throw and combine your dices long enough you will end up will all colors at '6' and a very well adapted species.
I hope this is simple and understandable and don't want to complicate this with sexual reproduction where you have 2 dices of each color thrown onto the table 1 each form mother and father.

170. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #171825 by Roland_F on April 28, 2008 at 9:42 pm

5611. Comment #171772 by el Heffe

RD is trying desperately to undo what was done on the movie "Expelled". The problem is that he "shot himself in the foot" in the movie and tries to explain it away by saying he was dupped

As the ID preachers replaced the God or 'creator' in their textbook simply with 'designer' to avoid being thrown out of biology classes straight away based on exiting court rulings about violation of the separation of church and state, Prof Dawkins mentioned the possible alien as designer idea coming nearest to a joke of Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel made several years ago of directed panspermia.
This directed panspermia was mentioned in the book from Prof. Dawkins "The ancestor's tale" page 563 :

Francis Crick, no less, has speculated semi-seriously in "Life itself" that bacteria might not have originated on this planet but been seeded from elsewhere. In Cricks fantasy, they were sent in the nose-cone of a rocket by alien beings, who wanted to propagate their form of life, but shrank from technically harder problems of transporting themselves and relied, instead, upon natural evolution to finish the job once the bacterial infection had taken root. Crick and his colleague Leslie Orgel, who originally suggested the idea with him, supposed that the bacteria had originally evolved by natural process on the home planet, but they could equally, while in the mood for science fiction, have added a touch of nanotechnological artifice to the mix, perhaps a molecular gearwheel like the flagellar motor which we see in Rhizobium and many other bacteria.

Of course spin-edited out of context from 'Expelled' trash movie makers to make it appear
(1) it's the own idea of Prof Dawkins
(2) edit away the 'nearest to ID' alien designer explanation
(3) edit that's a joke & scienfe fiction story
to make him look stupid.

171. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #171729 by Roland_F on April 28, 2008 at 6:21 pm

5584. Comment #171725 by Brian English

You lucky b.

Next 2 month working in Scandinavia, so last week here.

172. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #171724 by Roland_F on April 28, 2008 at 6:17 pm

5576. Comment #171709 by MPhil

Hyosung GV 650 Aquila ...

Reisbrenner !!
My Hysung Midas scooter was a piece of crap worn off after 4 years.
Harley Davidson rules - but no use here where I live on a small tropical island.

173. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #170793 by Roland_F on April 28, 2008 at 2:53 am

4997. Comment #170479 by melissajoy1234

Discovery Channel regarding the "scientific probability" of the global flood. And this is a very atheist channel that doesn't like to say good things about God or the Bible. That in itself, surprises me. I don't think any of us have real evidence of anything. I have no concrete evidence that the earth is round. This could be a big deception told to me through science books and through tainted pictures from satellite imagery. But do I believe the earth is round? Of course. Why not? If I'm wrong, it has no eternal significance. But if I say there is no God and I'm wrong, that's gonna matter in the end.

RolandF: Evolution is hard for me to believe, just as the Bible is hard for you to believe. We'll just leave it at that.

So none has real evidence of anything ? I think there is lot of evidence in evolution backed up by fossils, DNA, embryonic development etc.

So you only believe the earth is round and not flat just because it has no eternal punishment from God as consequence to accept or reject it. So your one and only reason for believe and your faked faith is the FEAR and nothing more, no evidence pro Yahweh or Jesus or no contrary evidence but just fear of God Yahweh's eternal punishment makes you "believe" ? Usually I would classify belief as something I am deeply convinced of, not just follow out of fear.

As I have no fear of Yahweh's eternal punishment I see the Bible as an historic text which is just the mixed assembly of different stories from Babylonian Gilgamesh myth, Egyptian Horus/Osiris son of virgin Isis myth, resurrection copied from many other ancient stories, Christmas the sun equinox celebration of Sungod Mithras etc.

So to use B. Pascal's wager : the true and only God is the trinity of Brahma/Shiva/Vishnu and you will have trouble. If the God is Baal and you worship his arch enemy Yahweh I really don't want to be in your skin in hell you will have terrible torture for enternity : I really feel sorry for you !

174. Science leads to killing people

Comment #170749 by Roland_F on April 27, 2008 at 11:59 pm

28. Comment #170741 by EvidenceOnly

KILLING is what Ben Stein wants to see more of and at a much larger scale than the killings he accuses Darwin of doing during the Holocaust.

This man belongs in a mental institution.

There are Republicans from the Bible belt who want to bomb Mecca.
And last weekend I read that Hillary Clinton in some election campaign speech promised to erase Iran and all it's inhabitants (more than 70 million) from the map if they would attack Israel ( a nation with one of the biggest nuke arsenals worldwide and means to deliver them themselves).

175. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #170712 by Roland_F on April 27, 2008 at 10:42 pm

I just watched this RD movie about the eye.
The Mount improbable is far too steep and might be misleading. A very moderate gentle 1% angle of slowly rising uphill would be more fitting the picture but would not fit onto the studio table.

So first the plain skin covering of Nautilus type eye is preventing some small sand piece is getting stuck inside the hole blinding it. Then a small 1% thicker skin randomize mutated have a very tiny advantage of slightly better eyesight and is increase the advantage of survival, no mutation e.g. 0% keeps the level; and a thinner or not transparent opaque skin reduces the eyesight and therefore limit the chances of survival compared to the plus 1% mutations. Then the next round another plus 1% is increasing the eyesight a little more, whereas mutations downhill decreasing the eye sight and survival chances. And so on and on. So the climbing Mount Improbable are some small steps uphill, not every generation makes a step forward but many keep the level for some generations before making the next small uphill improvements.

So mutation is random but the selection is always uphill e.g. NON random. Whoever has the bad luck of mutation in the wrong direction (downhill) is left behind and might be replaced by better fitting competitors in the struggle for limited resources. And this description of selection advantage of better fitted individuals e.g. evolution via natural selection written about by Darwin. So again it's not random the selection pressure ensures it goes uphill, even when it's reaching a suboptimum smaller peak and not the top of Mount Improbable, it's stuck on the sub-optimal peak like Nautilus or the compound facet eye.

176. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #170598 by Roland_F on April 27, 2008 at 8:55 pm

1457. Comment #170539 by TheTruthID

Roland_F,

You mentioned the eye. The ID scientist rebutt this with that the cambrian explosion has fossils of all phyla represented today. Which therefore implies that the eyes of humans, octopuses, and others would have to of evolved each separately. The chances?

The "cambrian explosion" maybe a little misleading name: first the 'explosion' was occurring over 20-30 million years, and the 'totally different phyla' were actually very closely related species during this time and only the vast diversified offspring including us humans after half a billion years are considered different phyla. Steven J. Gould with his euphoric book 'wonderful life' is a bit misleading I think.

About the eye: I read the evolution of the eye the first time in the 1970s (Hoimar von Ditfurt "Der Geist fiel nicht vom Himmel") so it 's nothing new and some books of RD are also explaining it.
It started well before cambrian explosion with light sensitive cells in euglena (we still have the 'eye purple' in our human eyes from this beginning) over the carving in of the light sensitive cells via nautilus to the lens eye. The human eye is backward (light has to pass through the cells - very stupid and not intelligent designed) whereas the octopus eye is forward.
So we (mammals) have backward lens eyes, octopus a forward lens eyes, flies have this facet eye because it has some advantage to see where the light is to find food and hide from predators. And as it has benefit natural selection has selected for it, and when it only causes maintenance cost but no value add like in dark caves the eye is going to be dysfunctional.
And this is very similar to other organs or limbs: legs to walk on hard rugged surface, fins to swim in water and wings to fly, all causing more advantage so the natural selection keeps them, if they have more cost to maintain the wing can also go dysfunctional like in flightless birds.

177. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #170545 by Roland_F on April 27, 2008 at 8:27 pm

1451. Comment #170532 by TheTruthID

but it seems that the ID scientists are able to poke holes or weaken the Evolution theory enough to cause doubt

The scientific method itself is to falsify your own theory to see if it holds up to scrutiny.
And what holes are poked into evolution from ID. When you follow the Dover trial you find out that the main proponents like Michael Behe was acknowledging in court, that the eye and the flagellum are NOT irreducible complex but can develop based on many small evolutionary steps. Same was the blood clotting case where 50 peer reviewed papers could be produced as evidence for the court proceedings to show how the mechanism is working.

I have no idea why some theists have problem with Evolution ? First the Church had a problem with the earth being not the center of the universe and defended it, now evolution instead of the creation of men like 'us God's ' is causing some trouble of hardliner fundamentalist. Even the late Pope had no trouble accepting evolution and just pulled back the God of the gaps to Abiogenesis or the big bang and the 'fine tuning' of cosmological constants.

178. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #170529 by Roland_F on April 27, 2008 at 8:11 pm

1439. Comment #170518 by TheTruthID
Hi Adam,
when you are interested to understand a little bit of Evolution the book "climbing mount improbable" is nice to start. You see the complexity for example an eye and are convinced it can not develop naturally, it's like you see the Eiger North face and think it's impossible to climb it. But at the back of Mount Improbable (not at Eiger south) there is a nice easy slope gradually climbing up by small steps to use the analogy of Prof. Dawkins.

Say, where's smellhound? Wow, first smellhound being a nice chap and now this from Adam...

Or it was some 'sock puppet' to test the waters if atheist are all bad to come out.

179. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #170513 by Roland_F on April 27, 2008 at 7:57 pm

1426. Comment #170504 by riandouglas

pray 5 times daily towards Mecca - I'm somewhat directly opposite to mecca (well, not quite, but it ruins my joke), so which direction do I face?

Ask your local Imam, or check in the hotel, many hotels I encountered have an arrow on the night table pointing towards Mecca.
If you are really opposite antipod - then any direction will do.
Or change yourGod to Odin who slayed the ice giants, use a compass and point your prayer carpet north.

180. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #170493 by Roland_F on April 27, 2008 at 7:42 pm

1386. Comment #170455 by smellhound on April 27, 2008 at 6:40 pm

Ok, so your problem is more with following the particular tenants of any religion than with belief in God period?

This sounds like atheists are just to lazy to pray every day and attend church on Sundays (or pray 5 times daily towards Mecca) or perform a pilgrimage etc.

There was a similar poster (chewmanfoo ) here some days ago who also propagated "everything goes as long you feel good" style mindset and there I also answered this is deja vu 'believe in believe' which is showing up here frequently.

So I just copy the reply here:
Comment #166086 by Roland_F on April 22, 2008 at 6:14 pm

There was a poster here this week who put very similar fantasies forward, reading like "just because I imagine something and feel good and comforted everybody should imagine the same". And as result the entire world has to obey to an imaginary 'higher being' to feel better, and this being of course is God Yahweh.
It would be nice if people like you would just practice their imagination and delusion silently at home, and keep out of the daily life of other people as well out of education, ethical debates and politics where the clergy is invited only based on their specific chosen faith.

181. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #170471 by Roland_F on April 27, 2008 at 6:56 pm

1329. Comment #170392 by smellhound

Ok, I read the thing about reciprocal altruism, and I understand that, but again the problem becomes, why be altruistic if someone can't/won't ever pay you back?

Reason: because the Genes are selected to this reciprocal altruism. There are the usual examples of vampire bat's, if one bat can't fly out for feeding, his neighbor will regurgitate some blood and feed him. There are so many examples of 'hero behavior' all over the animal kingdom like birds sitting on the treetop and warning from predators, getting the attention and high risk of being targeted themselves as pray. And if there are too many 'free riders' hiding away instead being hero, the entire colony remains unwarned of an approaching predators and fall easy pray and might be decimated or even extinct. Therefore in overall survival strategy, this was an advantage for survival of the entire species and genes of this altruistic hero behavior got therefore 'naturally selected' for.

For the homo sapiens these altruism is in our Genes passed down over millions of years for common ancestors of other mammals all the way trough early apes and the different human species over the millions of years. So our Genes are selected for this behavior over millions of years and our instincts are still following this historical pattern. The earliest bands of humans were usually closely genetically related, so this group/tribe altruism and cheater detection system evolved over millions of years, and is still "programmed" into us, even if modern humans now life in huge Mega-Cities and not in small hunter gatherer tribes.
There are several books about evolution and game theory covering this, try for example the 'Selfish Gene' as a start.

Therefore the altruistic behavior program is simply not made for the current modern population and we are still being altruistic even if our donation to someone in Africa will not be paid back. But possible even in a first world country you might be recipient of some donations after earthquakes, Hurricanes, volcanic eruptions, forest fires etc. So no need to invent God for this habit of being altruistic even the donor can't expect direct reciprocal donations.

And reading the Bible with all the hailing of woman abuse, slavery, killings, genocide, sadistic gambling's of God with Abraham to sacrifice his son and with poor Job etc. is not really pointing to a peaceful and moral guidance ! So all decision what is good and moral and what not, is therefore anyhow outside any 'absolute guidance' and maximal cherry picked (from the Bible or Koran) based on your own moral values or the changing Zeitgeist.

And there are many atheist, Hindus, Buddhist, Taoists, Atheists etc. who are altruistic and moral without God Yahweh and the Bible as alleged guidance. So pointing to the Bible of God is more a strawmen to give your private thoughts about moral just more power against someone else's moral thoughts which are possible also derived from his/her own Bible interpretation.

182. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #169915 by Roland_F on April 27, 2008 at 4:47 am

4873. Comment #169905 by epeeist

Clearmind/Wooter is a wind-up. Look at the change in vocabulary and grammar from post to post.

What I wouldn't be sure of is whose side he is actually on and whether he is a sock-puppet.

well I had the same thought - Dr. Steve Zara probably in selfexperimented mind altering medication (Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hide).
Rationality versus Irrationality.

183. Mount Vernon schools to hire investigator in Bible case

Comment #169850 by Roland_F on April 27, 2008 at 1:03 am

32. Comment #169439 by Simonw

Actually The ester eggs are more from Egypt :
The pagans believed that when their nature god (such as Tammuz, Osiris or Attis) died and was resurrected, his life went into the plants used by man as food. The matza made from the spring harvest was his new body and the wine from the grapes was his new blood.
The pagans used the paschal sacrifice to represent the sacrifice of a god or his only son, and ate eggs to represent the resurrection and rebirth of their nature god. The last supper of Jesus, similar to the last supper of Osiris commemorated at the Vernal Equinox. Easter eggs are again eaten to commemorate the resurrection of a "god" and also the "rebirth". In Egyptian mythology, Osiris was betrayed at his last supper by the evil god Set.
And there is Petra, who was the door-keeper of heaven and the afterlife ruled over by Osiris.

Everything from the Egyptian methodology rings some bells about Biblical stories ?
Virgin birth of Isis, God is giving his only son, last supper, betrayal at last supper, bread and wine as body and blood, resurrection after 3 days and finally the eggs to celebrate the resurrection at Easter, and St Peter (Petrus) is the rock and foundation of Christianity and doorkeeper of the heavens gate.

And about his article : what's wrong when the shepherd (teacher) is branding his flock (pupils) ??
Just some little burnings, just imagine the kids are naughty against their parents and not the teacher, as the Bible as unerring word of God tells us in Leviticus For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him

184. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #169839 by Roland_F on April 27, 2008 at 12:04 am

4836. Comment #169827 by mesomodel
Well a bicycle found in the Dutch canal is proof of the parting of the canal to transport cheese from Gouda, because as Jesus was preaching in his sermon on the mount : "blessed are the cheese makers".

Really interesting (or shocking) how the theist distort also archeological history like this book from 1956 or Werner Keller "und die Bibel hat doch recht" (the Bible is indeed correct) sold more than 10 million copies in the first 20 years. Just linking a piece of wood from Mt Ararat thousand of meters above sea level to 4000BC as part of the ark, which was actually a doorpost C14 dated to well after Christ.

Or this Jericho story, the walls already gone 1 millennia before the alleged attack of Joshua and his army likely 1225-1250 or earliest based on literal Bible test 1400BC. This fact of no walls any more, is suppressed and instead paintings of the walls as of 2400BC shown in articles. The excavated remains of the time in question (1200-1400BC) is just a single hut with some pottery and a piece of charcoal and it's only proof that just 1 family was living there to be attacked : hurray the Bible is confirmed !!

It's like some historians claim in 1000 years from now, London bridge was falling down because a Muslim chorus was singing this song in 2001. Evidence: London Bridge existed (we can show nice paintings and history tails), London existed in 2001 as some pottery and coal was dated to the 21st century, and there are other sources talking of Muslim violence and tumbling buildings during this time => ergo every word is true and it is clear that London Bridge indeed collapsed in 2001 based on the singing of the 'London bridge is falling down' song of a Muslim chorus thanks to Allah's support.

185. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #169805 by Roland_F on April 26, 2008 at 9:28 pm

4812. Comment #169796 by melissajoy1234

they found embedded for centuries in the bottom of the Nile, chariot wheels from ancient Egypt. Isn't that too cool?

Well they found a single wheel of a chariot in the Nile - and yes the Exodus Myth must be true.
Sorry there is nothing mentioned in any Egyptian history about the escaping of hundred thousand slaves, no mentioning of an entire army drowned in the Red sea when usually even more unimportant things are mentioned. And of course there is no trace whatsoever found in the Sinai desert of hundred thousand people living there for 40 years (artificially fed from Yahweh) either, despite heavy digging. Some other archeological disprove for Biblical stories I just posted here an hour ago.

So MelissaJoy when you are so interested in Astronomy just put a picture galaxy on your screensaver 200 Billion stars like our sun, a single pixel on the screen went dark and you loose thousands of stars on this single pixel. Now imagine the whole earth is plastered with computer screens even space stations and the moon billions of PC's for billions of galaxies. And then think about the time span 13,7 billion years of the universe and then God is just coming to 1 single PC of the billions, 1 single pixel and there choose the planet earth moving the sun , just 1 star out of thousand of this single pixel of your single PC screen. And this God after 13,7 billion years is walking the earth with Abraham and makes a covenant with him 4500 years ago ?

Sorry, complete deluded from the Christian Meme mind-virus. You fit neatly into the 7 points of the Christian Meme complex I already commented on this tread here before:

http://www.richarddawkins.net/articleComments,2394,Lying-for-Jesus,Richard-Dawkins,page73#167381

186. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #169795 by Roland_F on April 26, 2008 at 8:30 pm

4806. Comment #169787 by melissa1234

I am a Christian. I have been since I was five years old. I was not brain-washed.

As a 5 year old kid decide and comprehend fully yourself - and not brainwashed ?

The God revealed in the Old Testament, yup, he's the very same one in the New Testament.

Is he ? maybe you have missed the reading of all atrocities ?
Killing all humans in the great flood, want Abraham to sacrifice his son who is traumatized from this near death, gambling with the devil about Job's family and health, advise to stone to death all adulterers, homosexuals, and naughty children. Stone to death all people working on the weekend, 'thou shall not kill' brings Moses down as Gods advise and the first action is the slaughter of 3000 fellow Israelites plus plague afterwards.
But I know the theist version is : The very caring and loving God forgive his chosen people, the love of God is unimaginable great etc.
Then God is ordering Joshua genocide about all neighboring tribes, kill all even their animals, God is hailing slavery etc. and ah yes I forget God loves you and his love and care are great.

Here a link to 882 cruelty and violence parts in the Bible:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

187. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #169789 by Roland_F on April 26, 2008 at 8:10 pm

Back to the "evidence" provided here from theists.
Well the great flood caused the grand canyon: beside some video's linked here earlier about the structure of a flash flood canyon and an slowly formed canyon, the 30 minute hypothesis for creationist would mean the water is flowing with Mach-2 (double speed of sound) and this around the meandering curves !!
Beside historical records of neighboring Egypt which are continuing during the alleged world wide 5 miles high water level, also tree ring dating continues straight through alleged global flooding, the ice cores drilled in Greenland and Antarctica show identifiable layers of 'year rings' for the last 2 million years, as do coral year rings etc. All evidence from so many scientific different areas show there could never be a global flood, beside where all the water should come from.
So the Pentateuch was written in Babylonian exile after the southern tribes of Judea met the northern tribes of Israel 'at the rivers of Babylon' , and what surprise the Babylonian myth of Gilgamesh contains a story of a heavy flood (no surprise in the river delta of Euphrates and Tigris where flood are common).

About the funny links from Remnant about Jericho.
First the question is about when this Genocidal Joshua with help of God Yahweh was allegedly running amok in Israel. Just following the spin doctored Bible counting of 480 years since exodus and king Salomon (12 generations * 40 years) the genocide should have happened 1420-1400 BC. The only proper mentioning is from Pharaoh Merneptah (in 1220) "Israel is laid to waste and his seed is not". So the genocide should be somewhere before 1225 BC or a century earlier.
Jericho : The wall was coming down (slowly receding) in 2350BC and nothing of an impenetrable wall left 1400-1200BC . So the only things found after massive digging : some old tombs 1400-1300BC, one little building dated 1320BC with a jug, a clay oven and pottery fragments. Well and the piece of charcoal dated to 14 century BC mentioned in Remnant link is then the 'proof of every word of the Joshua story of the Bible"
.
The Joshua continued to destroy Ai, a small town destroyed also 2350BC and afterwards no more settlements at all possibly a few farmers after 1100BC.

Then Gibeon : a big and mighty city, so Yahweh must very strongly support the raiding party and even let the 'sun stood still' as support for longer daylight. So what is archeology showing for Gibeon ? hardly any settlement just a few centuries later 7 out of 55 old tombs temporary used possible from Nomads , not really the big and mighty city.

Hazor was really ransacked put pottery shows the date to 1190BC, so far too late for the Biblical events of Joshua.

So what is left ? A lot of fairy tales to show how strong and mighty Yahweh is which are true like 'the frogking', 'sleeping beauty' etc. and some desperate Bible inspired semi archeologists who interpret a piece of charcoal from a single existing hut of the time as evidence for huge walls tumbling down from trumpets.

188. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168379 by Roland_F on April 25, 2008 at 5:17 am

4036. Comment #168367 by Remnant

You must have missed my prior response. I have no opinion on the date of creation. It is not addressed in the Bible.

This almost hit be down from my chair ! Remnant our self proclaimed Bible expert even don't know the creation date !?
Just count all the history and names together, accept the weird age of guys like Methuselah and other in the beginning reaching 900 years of age and you come exactly to September 4004, this is public knowledge even from atheist.

189. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168370 by Roland_F on April 25, 2008 at 5:08 am

4030. Comment #168361 by Remnant

Maybe a re-reading of "the last 7 pages or so" is in order. I am a creationist.

So you don't have a clue about unbiased (non propaganda) Biblical history and no idea about science.
And you claim to be creationist which is exactly the same as ID preacher as the Dover trial showed. The ID book 'Panda and people' is just the copy of the old cretinist propaganda simply replacing the word 'creator' with 'designer' nothing more. And you say you are creationist ad not ID ?!?
LOL !!

190. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #167495 by Roland_F on April 24, 2008 at 5:26 am

3628. Comment #167480 by Philip1978
You fogot the Carpocratians, an early Christian sect, considered pederasty to be a virtue and Clement of Alexandria (c. 150 AD - 215 AD) complained about their versions of Mark's Gospel which told of Jesus's homosexual exploits with young boys!
Or possible their ended up into todays Catholic church with this pederast drive "no child left behind".

191. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #167471 by Roland_F on April 24, 2008 at 4:53 am

946. Comment #167459 by decius

Fine intellects such as yours are truly wasted on this individual and those like him.

This RD net is the third most visited blog in (? at least the UK ?) as was mentioned here last month. So the reply to some of this hard core Cretinists or willful ignorant beyond hope deluded theist is more addressed to the general public, not so much to the childish uninformed Troll.
As they have not any clue about science (of course as fundamentalist science deniers), I like to hit them back on their own turf the Bible (at least from history, authorship and reliability perspective).
About the own internal and moderated forum: we should have at least an 'atheist handbook' summarizing the rebuttals of claims from Cretinist/IDiots or Biblical apologists so we can simply link to this instead of rephrasing all the time rebuttals to ignorant's like "why there are still monkeys" or "evolution without God contradict 2nd law of thermodynamics" etc.

192. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #167419 by Roland_F on April 24, 2008 at 2:43 am

Quetzalcoatl : Nice cute picture of you ! Like my wife when she is angry...

193. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #167417 by Roland_F on April 24, 2008 at 2:35 am

3603. Comment #167408 by Quetzalcoatl

I've got to say that I do think it is a waste of time responding to Remnant ...... slightly more literate Clearmind

Literate ? I would say a native English speaker not like Wooter/Cearmind with his Russian-English posting from his possibly Siberian village or wherever he is staying.
But somehow same deluded shockingly uninformed about everything.

But really strange that theist are commenting on QM, cosmology, bio chemistry etc... when they even have no clue about their Biblical history (their only retreat when challenged).

194. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #167381 by Roland_F on April 24, 2008 at 1:20 am

When reading the religious droplets here from the 'Expelled' raiding party, it is interesting to crosscheck this with some evaluation of the Christian MEME by Scott Bidstrup.

(1) Inventing a bright, attractive persona of the Bible (Jesus) and of the experience of Christianity and the experience of conversion to it.
(2) Once one has the fantastic religious experience, this mind game keeps that one going, and prevents it from being overturned by subsequent learning.
(3) verbicide : It is, quite literally, distorting, even destroying the meaning of words so that they have a different meaning to the believer than the non-believer.
examples: TRUTH for non-believer = That which is real, verifiable, reality apart from human understanding) for believer = That which is revealed by the Holy Spirit
Wisdom for non-believer = Understandings that are shown to be correct; for the believer = the doctrines of the "Gospel" as revealed by the "holy spirit"
(4) assault on ethical and moral integrity : the believer often is encouraged to hate certain groups of people (usually a "morally suspect" group, such as abortion doctors, feminists, homosexuals, secular humanists, etc.) who represent some sort of threat, perceived or real, to the spread of the meme complex or the cohesiveness of the believers. The facade of sweet, loving calmness, is itself a lie. Inwardly, the believer is usually (though not always) full of raging doubts and concerns, frightened that he's instructed to hate and yet show love and tolerance.
(5) The dissociation of the ideas in the mind of the believer from the reality he sees all around him. It is really the essence of the synergy of all the mind games working together.
(6) Not being able to go back is a way of keeping the converted from abandoning the conversion to second thoughts. The higher good of "bringing in the harvest" is appealed to, with the belief that somehow, lying for Jesus through the facade one presents, is somehow not wrong.
(7) good old fashioned "hell-fire and damnation." Of course it has its greatest effect on the ignorant and superstitious, but it can be an effective motivator even among the learned when it synergizes well with other mind games, such as the burning of bridges and the induction of dissociation. Damnation, judgement, punishment for sin, blasphemy, etc., all are based on the fear mind game, and are so commonly employed by evangelicals they've become a stereotype.


Here the full article: http://www.bidstrup.com/virus.htm

Another interesting article from Jewish perspective is the rebuttal of this claims about all the 'proof' of Jesus existence. Quite a can of worm and Christianity seems to be the 'Esperanto' wild mix of all religions in the Middle East 2000 years ago from frequent saga of virgin birth, crucification, Petra (= Peter) the guard of the heavens door, resurrection, offering your son for the sins of humans, etc. ALL derived from existing myth during the time, but no reliable proof of Jesus at all.

here the link: http://mama.indstate.edu/users/nizrael/jesusrefutation.html

195. Investigating Atheism

Comment #167307 by Roland_F on April 23, 2008 at 9:42 pm

Although I agree that the Cambridge site has a pro-religion bias, I still think it is useful and quite well done. They have consolidated many atheism topics in an easy-to-navigate site.

useful ? this is a wolf in sheepskin. Pretending to be an atheist web page, faking a little atheism arguments and bring home their 'divinity faculty' e.g. theist message to the unprepared readers.
I already smelled something fishy before the link opened and the first post showed that this 'atheism' webpage is made from religious persons and registered from someone who's publications are about table prayer before eating.

196. Is religion a threat to rationality and science?

Comment #166327 by Roland_F on April 23, 2008 at 6:28 am

46. Comment #166244 by Steve Zara on April 23, 2008 at 3:34 am

Comment #166219 by Quetzalcoatl

I'll see if I can find out his explanation of how Jesus walked on water.

As a Jew Robert Winston is only believing in the 5 books of Moses the Torah (I mentioned before) and thinks Jesus if he had ever existed at all is just one of this many messiahs claiming to be an offspring of the Davidic linage.

What's much more interesting is as he is Expert of treatment of infertility, how he explain this to the persons: as faithful Jew he must follow Leviticus : infertility happens when man discover the nakedness of his aunt, then she can not get children any more.

197. Is religion a threat to rationality and science?

Comment #166171 by Roland_F on April 22, 2008 at 11:55 pm

Yes the book of Job: a sadistic God is betting with Satan and plays bad games with poor Job cause havoc to his live, and the moral of this story : faith in God gives you power to survive any hardship.

As Robert Winston is a specials for IVF (In vitro fertilization) of couples who remain childless how does he explain their infertility to them ? Scientifically or based on the Bible as based on Leviticus God inerrant word explains us that a woman remain childless when her nephew encounter her nakedness.

198. Is religion a threat to rationality and science?

Comment #166166 by Roland_F on April 22, 2008 at 11:10 pm

Still no proof of God from the religious speaker Robert Winston.
I read Winston's book "The story of God" where he actually lists lot's of atrocities and bloody scarifies for religious purpose (Spanish invaders in South America could not see the pyramids in the jungle but could smell the pungent stench of rotten flesh and blood of human and animal sacrifice etc.) .
Priests are cutting themselves as respect for their God, offer virgins and animals they could better use to feed their starving people. The name Cannibal is coming from the priest of Baal, etc means they had human sacrifice and eat the victims to please their God.
Very interesting Robert Winston and now compare your own quote:

Religion is built into human consciousness and there is plentiful evidence of it being a cohesive force

Another highlight: Moses come down with the 10 commandments from Mt Sinai and the people of Israel were dancing around a golden calf in defiance of Yahweh but God Yahweh is so nice and loving and forgives them. That's the wrap up of Robert Winston of the Biblical events, reading the story in the Bible or Torah it reads that Yahweh via Moses ordered the slaughter of 3000 fellow humans and as additional punishment for the survivors of the massacre God send the plague = very caring and loving indeed.

The other interesting highlight in Winston's book "The story of God" is that he (as a Jew) wipes away the entire New Testament and Christianity with a few lines : there were many self proclaimed messiahs during this time, so this Jesus is totally irrelevant. Winston even agrees that most parts of the Old Testament is spin doctored, later adjusted etc. as historical studies show, and he is very proud that Jews are questioning every sentence of Bible interpretation, compare old language translation etc. BUT DO NOT question the Torah (Pentateuch, 5 books Moses) no this is the direct spoken word of Yahweh a sacred taboo to question anything there every single word is God dictated. And every scholar who try to bring the Torah into relation when it was written (Babylon exile) what different authors wrote the parts 'P version 'J' version etc. this is ridiculous and sound like algebra and all the scholars have no idea of the old Aramaic language to judge.
So much for an balanced and open minded view - as long it's not agaist the Torah dogma.

199. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #166134 by Roland_F on April 22, 2008 at 7:25 pm

3252. Comment #166090 by Remnant on April 22, 2008 at 6:17 pm

Re: Comment #166066 by gr8hands on April 22, 2008 at 5:41 pm

Your statements about the authors and dates of Gospels are in disagreement with the vast majority of Biblical scholars, both secular and religious.

Remnant it is really shocking the only answer or 'proof' of any science and philosophical challenge you answer with the Bible. And now you show that you have obvious not the slightest idea about biblical history !!

When Jesus lived at all what in-between many historians question and was not this Jesus ha Notzri (Yeishu, Jesua, Yeshua or Joshua ,however it's translated) the miracle worker and messiahs who died in 88 BC, then this Jesus the Nazorene from the Bible dies aged 33 or 36 (scholars differ here) possibly in 33AD. There are even faithful religious scholars out there, who are very happy and relieved to find any archeological Jesus (the Nazorene) proof even if pointing to a mortal preacher and rebel against Roman rule.

The very earliest dates given to the Gospel writers (not their real name) :
Mark earliest 70AD
Mathew earliest 80 AD
Luke earliest 85 AD
John earliest 95 AD (so an alleged 'eyewitness' view more than 60 years after the event)
Some historians even date all 4 Gospels after 100AD (as the earliest Gospel of Mark is quoting from Ignatius so possible all Gospels dates are later)
Even under the earliest assumption everything is decades after Jesus (Pilate's ) time and the Gospels are not written in Israel/Judea at all.

200. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #166086 by Roland_F on April 22, 2008 at 6:14 pm

chewmanfoo
There was a poster here this week who put very similar fantasies forward, reading like "just because I imagine something and feel good and comforted everybody should imagine the same". And as result the entire world has to obey to an imaginary 'higher being' to feel better, and this being of course is God Yahweh.
So interpreting God as holy trinity, or focusing to pray to Jesus or 'virgin' Mary, or Elephant God Ganesh brining luck, or believing in Santa Claus or Easter rabbit anything goes just to feel more 'comfort and meaning in life'.

Scientific research showed that religions or other supernatural believes are usually rooted in the childish behavior searching for protection from parents. As humans are like premature born apes and have a delayed maturing process, these supernatural believes are frequently continuing into adulthood for persons which increased Promine hormone levels into adulthood (see Clive Bromhall "the eternal child") .

It would be nice if people like you would just practice their imagination and delusion silently at home, and keep out of the daily life of other people as well out of education, ethical debates and politics where the clergy is invited only based on their specific chosen faith.