Comments by Vinelectric

201. Bishop accuses gays of 'conspiracy' against the Catholic Church

Comment #143024 by Vinelectric on March 13, 2008 at 11:21 am

The monarch, and by extension, the whole country is supposed to be Anglican anyway. Any Anglican who is serious about their faith should lobby to ban Catholicism altogether.

"Values and teachings of the Catholic Church" my arse.

202. When blasphemy bit the dust

Comment #140622 by Vinelectric on March 8, 2008 at 3:04 am

That is the whole point of independent churches. But why are established churches not more obviously financially ravenous, or am I missing something?

But by their-God they are!

Steve: the Church commissioners own and manage the entire block of luxuury apartments in Marble Arch in London. To be more specific the area enclosed by Sussex Gardens, Edgeware Road, Bayswater Road but not entirely sure about the western extent of this mega-estate.

For those who don't know London this is where Tony Blair moved in last year. They lease (barely 200 meters squared) two bedroom flats for 600,000 to 750, 000 pounds and semi-detached houses go for no less than two million.

Their-God knows what else they're up to!

203. Christopher Hitchens on Real Time with Bill Maher

Comment #136990 by Vinelectric on March 2, 2008 at 5:10 am

Steve wrote:

Hitchens is wrong about the birth of Buddha

Going through the second reading of "god is not Great" and I could detect other misrepresentations and inaccuracies by Hitchens e.g his claim that the verses of the Quran in the Dome of the Rock are unique. This coupled with his entertaining (yet annoying!) excessive appeal to cheap humour is making it difficult for me to follow his comic rants. I wonder if that is putting off the religious as well.

I prefer Dawkins' engaging and upfront no-nonesense approach.

204. Pakistan blocks YouTube over blasphemous video

Comment #133221 by Vinelectric on February 25, 2008 at 10:49 pm

Anyone else sees the difference between the well researched essays on comparative religion by well known atheist writers (even the entertainingly irreverant Hitchens) and the right wing screaming-banshees?

As if we don't have enough community tensions already, some retard suddenly goes into a Free-Speech-Tourette fit for the sake of fullfilling a completely useless "free-speech" urge.

We end up, as usual, with a situation with some retards screaming "Fuck Islam" while others scream "Fuck the West" retardingly ever after.

And then what?

205. Sprinting down the evolutionary highway

Comment #121753 by Vinelectric on February 4, 2008 at 4:38 am

yanco
In fact humans are now suffering nasty infections from novel organisms such as MRSA and VRE that have appeared because of the use of antibiotics. That should ensure that the unfortunate evolutionary race between the host and the infectious organism is likely to continue.

206. Female Muslim medics 'disobey hygiene rules'

Comment #121463 by Vinelectric on February 3, 2008 at 12:54 pm

mdowe

If they can't do the job for whatever reason, then then should be "involuntarily encouraged" to find another career

Don't be mislead into thinking that defiant doctors are tolerated. They're not and we don't need the Telegraph to remind us how to discipline our staff. Happens all the time, I assure you. Even delaying answering your pager for a few minutes can land you a formal complaint from the nursing staff (even though you were in the toilet or having a heart attack or jumping on someone's chest as soemtimes happens!) let alone getting away with not washing your hands in theatre.

207. Female Muslim medics 'disobey hygiene rules'

Comment #121446 by Vinelectric on February 3, 2008 at 12:10 pm

One of the consultants I worked for refused to wear a plastic apron (standard Intensive care barrier nursing) because it made him look as if he was doing the dishes. Instead of reporting it to the papers the staff report such matters to the managers who discipline eccentric staff.

The NHS employs thousands and you're bound to bump into the loony-type every now and then but things should be dealt with internally as such sensational stories betray the vast majority who work hard to provide best patient care they can provide. I've come across all sorts of religious fundies including Muslims but I've never heard of this before as anyone who disobeys the strict nursing codes of meticuolous scrubbing is simply barred from theatre.

208. 'Irrational Atheist' trounces God-deniers

Comment #120953 by Vinelectric on February 2, 2008 at 7:36 pm

By the way, next time they conduct a study on the effect of religion on psychology they should include the children of Wahabi muslims.

The type of religion and the way it is delivered are important variables. Or maybe they aren't. Let's wait for what the studies say.

209. Are Darwin's Theories Fact or Faith Issues?

Comment #120904 by Vinelectric on February 2, 2008 at 6:29 pm

Lorien
I agree that purely natural processes are responsible for autonomy of thought and, by extension, the illusion of free will.

The best you can hope for is to explain the mechanism behind the concept e.g natural selection of a constant stream of thought resulting in a decision to carry out a certain command.

However you should stop right there! The end result is a human being who is able to choose how to spend their extra income or whether to carry out an act of selfless altruism. On a less drastic tone, choosing to reject a subversive religion like Islam or Christianity is, to me, good evidence that we are endowed with a certain level of thought autonomy that could best be described as free will.

What do you think?

210. Are Darwin's Theories Fact or Faith Issues?

Comment #120799 by Vinelectric on February 2, 2008 at 2:59 pm

LorienRyan

Is there really any 'design' going on at all?

It's to do with conscious intent to initiate the process and guide it along different lines even when one is not compelled to do so e.g aesthetic appearences of the final product. I think it all boils down to how you feel about the notion of "free will".

211. Are Darwin's Theories Fact or Faith Issues?

Comment #120798 by Vinelectric on February 2, 2008 at 2:55 pm

You'd think that physicians, knowing very well how vulnerable the human body is to environmental insults, would be rather inclined to think that we could not possibly be the product of an omniscient designer.

The wards are full of evidence that either "it" does not exist or "it" couldn't care less. Someone else commented on another thread that "physicians tend to play god because someone has to". Sad but ture.

212. Happy Birthday Josh Timonen!

Comment #119104 by Vinelectric on January 31, 2008 at 10:23 am

HAPPY the day after BIRTHDAY...!

213. A Letter From Hell

Comment #117650 by Vinelectric on January 29, 2008 at 9:43 am

Goldy Go away..!
Have you not heard Enya's "Carribean Blue"? And while you're at it why not try John Cameron's "Half forgotton daydreams" on the Nacho Libre soundtrack?

Please don't argue!

214. A Letter From Hell

Comment #117150 by Vinelectric on January 28, 2008 at 10:33 am

heathen2

Chapter 69 AlHaaqqah

27] "Ah! Would that (Death) had made an end of me!"

[28] "Of no profit to me has been my wealth!"
[29] "My power has perished from me!"

[30] (The stern command will say): "Seize ye him, and bind ye him,
[31] "And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire.
[32] "Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits!
(Further, chain him and thread his body on a chain that is seventy cubits long!
[33] "This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High,
[34] "And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent!
[35] "So no friend hath he here this Day."
[36] "Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds,
[37] "Which none do eat but those in sin."

The wording of 32 is pecuiliar to this translation. I read the book in Arabic and famous commentators agree that the meaning of the words is that people are to be threaded on the chains not be marched on them. It's not one of those difficult or archaic terms so I think the translator was too embarrased to include this madness. Other notions of molten lead poured on to ears or being dragged face on...etc are in various other bits.

Sorry for the morbid chit chat but you asked for it!

215. Banks are helping sharia make a back-door entrance

Comment #117131 by Vinelectric on January 28, 2008 at 10:11 am

Marcus Hill

I think you're absolutely right. I personally know of at least two friends who chose to bank with HSBC because it offers the so called "Amanah" Sharia friendly accounts. The involvement of more reputable banks in this business will help keep purely Islamic ventures (e.g the newly founded Islamic Bank of Britain) at bay as the bigger banks are likely to be able to afford to offer more attractive services anyway.

216. Banks are helping sharia make a back-door entrance

Comment #117124 by Vinelectric on January 28, 2008 at 10:03 am

Thanks al-rawandi

I like that model but of course it's not just the success of the business you need to worry about it's the stability of the market itslef! So I suppose I can only practically be Sharia compliant if I adopted that model in, say Japan with its low inflation rates, and used the money to invest in a stable business like Mitsubishi or Sony for a year at a time!!

217. A Letter From Hell

Comment #116813 by Vinelectric on January 27, 2008 at 1:57 pm

heathen2

Theny you'll friend will have a nervous breakdown if you told her about the book that says you'll be fed boiling pus and that you'll be threaded ona 70 foot chain (mouth to anus) in hell whilst been dragged face down all along..

The Quran has all the tools to drive children insane.

218. Banks are helping sharia make a back-door entrance

Comment #116808 by Vinelectric on January 27, 2008 at 1:41 pm

al-rawandi

I'm not sure about interest free lending but I'd definitely like to hear your thoughts on that.

I remember contacting an advisor from the SFB, a commercial bank that oversees the Societe Generale's investments in the Sudan about interest-free lending. Their principle was to allow the customer to identify his target investment/purhase..e.g a new car.. then they'd make a payment to the vendor and resell it to the customer at a higher, but fixed, sum similar to a non-cumulative fixed-interest lending but repackaged as "commercial profit" which is Islamically sound.

As if god won't notice!

219. Banks are helping sharia make a back-door entrance

Comment #116503 by Vinelectric on January 26, 2008 at 4:48 pm

Islamic banking maybe deceptive but the back breaking interest rates on my loans are definitiely a crime!

Sharia banking may not be feasible in the real world (as it would halt economic growth eventually) but if any of these bank succeeds in finding an interest free, deception free solution I'll definitely join and invite all my believing and non-believing frineds as well....in my dreams..I suppose !

220. Loneliness Breeds Belief in Supernatural

Comment #116258 by Vinelectric on January 26, 2008 at 4:38 am

Welcome op-cow

People in the very religious middle eastern socieities have ridiculously large extended and well knit families. That seems to enhance and perpetuate religious beliefs through group solidarity.

I only started to doubt the supernatural when I moved to live alone and got a break from the constant and incessant preaching by those who are anxious that you might start thinking for yourself unless you're kept in check.

221. Violence fear over Islam film

Comment #113915 by Vinelectric on January 21, 2008 at 2:05 am

Thanks to whoever sorted out the italics glitch.

222. Violence fear over Islam film

Comment #113913 by Vinelectric on January 21, 2008 at 2:03 am

Roland_F

I don't know what you're getting at but if you ask ex-muslims, myself included, I doubt that you'd come across anyone who felt a change of heart by watching right wing nutters tear up a book that once occupied a special place in their lives.

All you'll ever achieve is triggering the predictable knee jerk whereby muslims automatically recoil further into their irrationality. You know there's an emotional element to religious attachment but you don't seem to know how to manipulate that to your advantage.

Why can't we approach the muslim community through rational and mature dialogue instead? It works, "believe" me!

223. Honour Killings

Comment #113785 by Vinelectric on January 20, 2008 at 2:43 pm

zoltix

Like your avatar. By the way your mission won't be that easy. Take a look at this:

ANAS ibn Malik (RA) reports: "The Prophet was sitting in the mosque with some of his companions when a Bedouin urinated inside the mosque. The Prophet's Companions said: 'What is going on?' 'What are you doing?' The Prophet said to them: 'Do not interrupt him.' He subsequently called the man and said to him: 'These mosques are not the place where one can throw any dirt. They are meant for reciting the Quran, glorifying God and prayer.' He then called for a bucket of water and he poured it over the urine." (Bukhari, Muslim, Nessai, Malik and Ahmad).

This is apparently the same man who killed his critics (? source). He was different things at different times and reports on his life, although heterogenous and contradictory, do draw a picture of a successful no-nonesense military leader who emancipated slaves and put up with years of persecution.

Stick with the Quran. You'll find all the embarrasing texts that no one will dare challenge their authenticity.

By the way, that child was engaged to another grown man before he wed her!

224. The New Theology

Comment #113781 by Vinelectric on January 20, 2008 at 2:27 pm

BONZAI...

welcome back!

225. Violence fear over Islam film

Comment #113780 by Vinelectric on January 20, 2008 at 2:21 pm

Thanks Steve, that italics glitch was driving me nuts AND I was blamed for it..! Tell you the truth I was offended but I noticed that everyone's posts were becoming difficult to follow including Duke Nukem's.

226. Honour Killings

Comment #113686 by Vinelectric on January 20, 2008 at 10:30 am

Honour killing comes from Islamic laws that demand executing married adulterers. According to these laws unmarried "offenders" should, in fact, be flogged in public!

Two members of my middle eastern (extended) family were single unmarried mothers. That is still exceptionally rare but the ladies are in their 50s and not just still alive but respected members of the family. Among muslims, honour killings seem to be endemic to the East Asian communities. Apparently they still happen in Egypt but they are classified and reported as crimes by the media.

227. Mandrake: Charles's letter in support of Islamic 'fundamentalism'

Comment #113668 by Vinelectric on January 20, 2008 at 10:13 am

he understood the "frustrations" Muslims experience "as a result of apparent Western misunderstanding and misrepresentation.

That was certainly true, before the muslims eventually lost the plot and tipped the balance.

228. Violence fear over Islam film

Comment #113656 by Vinelectric on January 20, 2008 at 9:57 am

Can't they think of any other way to engage muslims other than the "burn this or get the hell out of here" approach?

BBC's Hard Talk would occasionally invite a muslim leader and grill them over hardline views (especially so when Tim Sebastian was around). If the Dutch emulate such government-sponsored debates that may prove much more effective than the letting the irresponsible freedom-to-offend junkies to continue to pour oil on the fire.

229. What Religion's Blind Stranglehold on America Is Doing to Our Democracy

Comment #113529 by Vinelectric on January 20, 2008 at 12:03 am

jshuey

Modern forms of representative democracies e.g the United Kingdom do have their charters (Magna Carta) and other forms of codified treaties that protect against the 'tyranny by majority' and other byproducts of a Greek-styled democracy. Apart from a written (but still ammendable) constitution all other aspects of legislation and election in a "Republic" appear essentially democratic.

Religious persuasion can contaminate the legistlative process even within a Republic, and in several significant ways, without touching the cornerstones of the constitution. A healthy state of 'democractic' debate should prevent this but self declared religious moral absolutism would jeapordise it. The author's point sounds pretty straight forward.

230. New Findings Confirm Darwin's Theory: Evolution Not Random

Comment #113450 by Vinelectric on January 19, 2008 at 3:22 pm

innit?

231. New Findings Confirm Darwin's Theory: Evolution Not Random

Comment #113444 by Vinelectric on January 19, 2008 at 3:14 pm

Donald

This is the Medline entry:

Curr Biol. 2007 Nov 20;17(22):1925-37

Trends, stasis, and drift in the evolution of nematode vulva development.
Kiontke K, Barrière A, Kolotuev I, Podbilewicz B, Sommer R, Fitch DH, Félix MA.

Department of Biology, New York University, Main Building, Room 1009, 100 Washington Square East, New York, New York 10003, USA. kk52@nyu.edu

BACKGROUND: A surprising amount of developmental variation has been observed for otherwise highly conserved features, a phenomenon known as developmental system drift. Either stochastic processes (e.g., drift and absence of selection-independent constraints) or deterministic processes (e.g., selection or constraints) could be the predominate mechanism for the evolution of such variation. We tested whether evolutionary patterns of change were unbiased or biased, as predicted by the stochastic or deterministic hypotheses, respectively. As a model, we used the nematode vulva, a highly conserved, essential organ, the development of which has been intensively studied in the model systems Caenorhabditis elegans and Pristionchus pacificus.
RESULTS: For 51 rhabditid species, we analyzed more than 40 characteristics of vulva development, including cell fates, fate induction, cell competence, division patterns, morphogenesis, and related aspects of gonad development. We then defined individual characters and plotted their evolution on a phylogeny inferred for 65 species from three nuclear gene sequences. This taxon-dense phylogeny provides for the first time a highly resolved picture of rhabditid evolution and allows the reconstruction of the number and directionality of changes in the vulva development characters. We found an astonishing amount of variation and an even larger number of evolutionary changes, suggesting a high degree of homoplasy (convergences and reversals). Surprisingly, only two characters showed unbiased evolution. Evolution of all other characters was biased.
CONCLUSIONS: We propose that developmental evolution is primarily governed by selection and/or selection-independent constraints, not stochastic processes such as drift in unconstrained phenotypic space.

PMID: 18024125 [PubMed - in process]

232. New Findings Confirm Darwin's Theory: Evolution Not Random

Comment #113411 by Vinelectric on January 19, 2008 at 2:14 pm

Steve

This is the conclusion of the abstract:

We propose that developmental evolution is primarily governed by selection and/or selection-independent constraints, not stochastic processes such as drift in unconstrained phenotypic space.

The message is, apparently, that evolution is deterministic but if you read the paper you'll see that they chose to study an organ which is known to be highly conserved anyway. You may argue that the development of certain organs can 'lock' the evolutionary process into a certain direction but the authors did not make an effort to justify applying this conclusion to evolution in general.

233. Interview with Neil Shubin, author of 'Your Inner Fish'

Comment #112746 by Vinelectric on January 18, 2008 at 3:15 am

The first time I saw the Tiktaalik I thought: well that must be how Crocodiles started out, what' the big deal..

then I looked at the Wikipedia entry and learnt something very significant:

Crocodiles are among the more biologically complex reptiles despite their prehistoric look. Unlike other reptiles they have a four-chambered heart, diaphragm and cerebral cortex.

So they do fit the bill of a transitional form, afterall.

234. Fish out of water: Your Inner Fish

Comment #111392 by Vinelectric on January 14, 2008 at 1:57 pm

Steven Mading

I agree that the writer was talking about a particular type of hernia amongst many. As you pointed out there are several factors that contribute to the problem. Does that not make it even clearer that linking herniae to fish is an oversimplification? You don't need that anatomical anomaly to develop a hernia and, in fact, only a tiny minority of the population devlop herniae even though every single one of them has the anomaly. Surely that developmnetal story can't be that important!

Anyways let's leave out that 'fishy' hernia business and agree that the rest of the article was well put.

Vince

235. Fish out of water: Your Inner Fish

Comment #111318 by Vinelectric on January 14, 2008 at 10:22 am

Nice article but some of the explanations are a bit far fetched.

For example haemorrhoids and varicose veins develop from a primary dysfunction of connective tissue and valves respectively. If you happen to suffer with these conditions you'll find that you didn't have to stand or sit for that long to start them off.

The story about herniae sounds strange too! The defect in the developmental tract of the gonads may explain one of the (commoner) types of herniae (the so called indirect type) but what about herniae in women? or the very common 'direct' hernia or the dangerous femoral hernia? They have nothing to do with that developmental features the writer was talking about.

On the other hand I thought the similarity between hiccups and gill breathing was interesting. I'm even more surprised that anyone went all the way to study them but that makes for good fodder for the lunch break chat!

236. The Moral Instinct

Comment #110753 by Vinelectric on January 12, 2008 at 9:40 am

Consider this moral dilemma: A runaway trolley is about to kill a schoolteacher. You can divert the trolley onto a sidetrack, but the trolley would trip a switch sending a signal to a class of 6-year-olds, giving them permission to name a teddy bear Muhammad. Is it permissible to pull the lever?

Sorry, I couldn't help myself, ..Good one....!!! Now back to the article....

237. Why (Almost All) Cosmologists are Atheists

Comment #110695 by Vinelectric on January 12, 2008 at 2:04 am

You know what,Steve, growing up in a third world country with ridiculously high infant-maternal mortality rates and miserably short life spans makes you wonder if life actually evolved inspite of the constants. And working in a hospital environment where you are constantly reminded how frail and inept the human form is at handling various trivial worldly insults putts you off from rationally thinking about the universe as being tuned to anything but misery!!

Sorry for the sermon! I understand what you're saying but I just can't shake off the pessimism. I better see my shrink!

238. Why (Almost All) Cosmologists are Atheists

Comment #110612 by Vinelectric on January 11, 2008 at 3:31 pm

Donald, Steve

Thanks for the explanations.

239. Why (Almost All) Cosmologists are Atheists

Comment #110611 by Vinelectric on January 11, 2008 at 3:30 pm

Brian
Don't even bother... I chuckled when someone wrote in to describe them as aatheists..... !

240. Why (Almost All) Cosmologists are Atheists

Comment #110593 by Vinelectric on January 11, 2008 at 2:52 pm

...many of the regularities that physics has uncovered in the last century are symmetric in time, and thus could be regarded as operating in either direction, but others are not, e.g. second law of thermodynamics....

Donald or Steve Zara

I have no training in this field but Brian Greene in his "Fabric of the Cosmos" explains that the second law of thermodynamics is time symmetrical. He gives an example of a melting ice cube.

In reverse theres is an apparent decrease in entropy as the water freezes but this comes at the expense of the cooling device operating to bring this about and, effectively, increasing overall entropy.

Is this not true?

241. Six Reasons to be an Atheist

Comment #110152 by Vinelectric on January 10, 2008 at 2:47 pm

epeeist

I posted a list of quotations, some from theist sources and some not, of where the Golden Rule was in place before Jesus was supposedly born.

Would you oblige us with the link? I can sift through your posts but that would take ages! I think that would be very helpful in more than one way.

Oh crap! I remember, my friends will say that: You see this shows you that God's message to mankind through history has been consistent all along!

You know, in Islam, we had this thing about numerous but (?) unidentified sub-prophets that god sends as 'wise men' to keep social order in check! Anyway please send us the link.

Vince

242. Six Reasons to be an Atheist

Comment #110136 by Vinelectric on January 10, 2008 at 2:34 pm

ADH

namely the delusion that atheism inclines people to be better

Absolutely not true. Atheism is being advocated as a natural conclusion to rationality. It has no direct bearing on morality and you won't find many (if any) on this forum who would claim otherwise.

On the other hand it could be argued that non-theism frees one from any obligation to a deity and thus any good deed is done for the pure sake of it. As someone wrote here before "without god, we have none but each other". That, to me, not just makes the conceopt of a god superfluous it actually makes it immoral, in a way, to give in charity under the banner of religion.

243. Blind Faiths

Comment #110032 by Vinelectric on January 10, 2008 at 11:03 am

Quoting from Quran chapter 9

(4) (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided anyone against you......

and

(6) If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure.....

Muhammad came to the end of his tether when he wrote that chapter 9 and "dropped the bomb on Hiroshima", after giving a four months notice! He was definitely not the cuddly type but he was not your Genghis Khan either.

If you want to engage muslims choose your polemics carefully lest you waste your time with half-quoted texts that are guaranteed not to impress your audience. Instead try the following: murdering apostates, homosexuals, adulterers, punishment of the grave, slavery, domestic abuse...etc all clearly endorsed/ prescribed by Muhammad in the Qur'an or the main texts of the hadiths.

244. Irreligion: A Mathematician Explains Why the Arguments for God Just Don't Add Up

Comment #109809 by Vinelectric on January 9, 2008 at 7:13 pm

BigCity

I don't really understand how the author being a mathematician figures into the argument.

And I can't figure out why you need a specialist to explain something that is, apparently, central to our existence! Sort of gives it away, doesn't it?

245. Irreligion: A Mathematician Explains Why the Arguments for God Just Don't Add Up

Comment #109808 by Vinelectric on January 9, 2008 at 6:59 pm

epeeist

P1 - is false. We know that things like virtual particles are created and annihilated all the time.

Unless you're familiar with particle/quantum physics you may think of this as yet another form of an argument from ignorance!

I'm sure you've come across this parody before:
"We scientists don't know a cause for such particles, thus we assume there is no cause and that the kalam argument falls flat on its nose"

In layman's logic this comes across as a sound criticism to your refusal of the first premise of the kalam or similar arguments. I prefer to criticize the "assertion of a cause when there's demonstrably none". Works everytime!

246. The Mind of the Market

Comment #109426 by Vinelectric on January 9, 2008 at 3:34 am

Brian

Comments are moderated. If I were you I'd ignore them. Waste of time.

247. Blind Faiths

Comment #108632 by Vinelectric on January 7, 2008 at 11:18 am

Including you?

248. Blind Faiths

Comment #108625 by Vinelectric on January 7, 2008 at 11:11 am

al-rawandi

Skip over whatever Fanusi writes.

249. Blind Faiths

Comment #108620 by Vinelectric on January 7, 2008 at 11:02 am

...the way to rescue Western civilization from a path of suicide is to challenge its tradition of reason...

mmmm...NEXTTT !

250. Did mozzies, not a meteor, do for the dinosaurs?

Comment #108615 by Vinelectric on January 7, 2008 at 10:51 am

Diacanu
It's not just that you think alike, you both avatars that have no eyes/concealed eyes or something disturbing about them. I find them quite scary!!!

Edit: my eyes are concealed in a cool friendly pair of sunglasses (if you want to protest!)