Comments by mesomodel

201. Murder plot against Danish cartoonist

Comment #126261 by mesomodel on February 12, 2008 at 8:21 pm

Jaster,

John McCain served in Vietnam, and was a POW for several years. He was also, I believe, tortured.
He is in favor of "banning cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment of foreign suspects in the war on terror." I think this statement actually goes beyond opposition to torture, however you might want to define it. I consider "degrading treatment" to be decidedly less severe than torture.

I can understand your point of view having served in Iraq and having seen your friends and comrades die. Do you think that you would change your opinion if you had been captured, imprisoned for years and tortured? I'm trying to understand how two people that have served in wars can have what appears to be very different views on the acceptability of torture.

Thanks.

202. Why Darwin matters

Comment #126087 by mesomodel on February 12, 2008 at 12:52 pm

Well, we're all looking for truth, surely!

No. Some of us are. Some of us are hiding from it.

And, another thing, stop calling me Shirley.

203. Murder plot against Danish cartoonist

Comment #126004 by mesomodel on February 12, 2008 at 11:16 am

al-rawandi (Duffman) -

This is what makes civilized countries different from backwards ones. They don't torture people. Saudis, Israelis, Iranians, and Chinese do this.

You forgot the U.S.

Sigh.

204. Why multiculturalism must be abandoned

Comment #125918 by mesomodel on February 12, 2008 at 9:01 am

Steve:

I could not cope without a regular Balti.

There's only three things I consider eating when I'm in the UK.

1) A full English breakfast.
2) Fish and chips.
3) Indian (including balti).

The rest is generally boiled, bland crap. No offense.

205. 'Irrational Atheist' trounces God-deniers

Comment #123071 by mesomodel on February 6, 2008 at 12:28 pm

It was my theory that the wave of crazy posters who arrived all at once were really one person.

Oh, so you mean "theory" as in theory of evolution.

Hehe.

206. 'Irrational Atheist' trounces God-deniers

Comment #123009 by mesomodel on February 6, 2008 at 10:59 am

Vox's ultimatum is a lot like the occasional email I get. A few times a year, some nut job sends me a long diatribe about how there's worms, or a hydroelectric power plant, or an underground city, or fill in the blank on Mars. Furthermore, they state that if I don't respond to their claims by such and such date that they will count me in (and use my name) as supporter of their claims. Naturally, I don't respond (In the words of Dawkins, "that would look good on their resume"). In all cases, the wackos vanish into the oblivion from which they emerged. Or, maybe they get carried off by Martians.

207. Ad 'likely to offend gay people'

Comment #122994 by mesomodel on February 6, 2008 at 10:36 am

I have yet to see any conclusive evidence that a gay couple can't raise a kid.

I've seen firsthand that a gay couple can raise kids, and do it better than the "traditional" family.

One of my very good friends is a lesbian in a long, committed relationship, and together they've been raising a kid for the last ~12 years. The boy is a damn fine young man.

208. 'Irrational Atheist' trounces God-deniers

Comment #120944 by mesomodel on February 2, 2008 at 7:30 pm

Blacknad,

Check out the following. After you read it in its entirety, we can discuss.

RELIGION: THE ETIOLOGY OF MENTAL ILLNESS (Hardcover)
by Henry, Jones

From Amazon: "This book explains how the religious indoctrination of children causes mental illness. Brain damage caused by religious belief is explained."

There's also one reader review:
"Dr. Jones is a psychiatrist who goes where most "just don't" and names religion the bane of the human mind. I've heard religion offhandedly called "mental illness" by several best selling authors; now here's a deeper look by someone in a position to elaborate on the idea. Dr. Jones is an M.D. and psychiatrist who spent almost 40 years interviewing, studying, and trying to help mental patients. In his book he presents convincing argument that religious indoctrination of children is the cause of mental illness and that religious belief can result in brain damage, not to mention personally and socially disastrous behavior. The target audience is people concerned about the religious pandemic in our world, people who suffer the anguish of religion themselves, and the mental health professionals who want to help them. I have little knowledge of psychology but I nevertheless find Dr. Jones' ideas compelling. My only criticisms are that the price at over $50 for a book of this length seems excessive, and there are about twenty pages that are quite repetitious in describing various patterns of behavioral disorder. But perhaps the simplicity conveyed by that repetition is exactly the point. And "short and to the point" has an appeal too. In my opinion, this psychiatrists viewpoint is an important supplement to the anti-religious ideas of authors in the scientific and philosophical disciplines such as Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett, and Victor Stenger."

209. 'Irrational Atheist' trounces God-deniers

Comment #120892 by mesomodel on February 2, 2008 at 6:07 pm

I'll stop going on about it now.

Fine. I'm going to go finish reading the "Amber Spyglass" now. I've gotten some very good recommendations.

And, no offense taken on the nickname.

210. 'Irrational Atheist' trounces God-deniers

Comment #120883 by mesomodel on February 2, 2008 at 5:57 pm

You need to read it and make a solid defense because this will whip through the Christian consciousness and will trickle down to the public.

Unless you, Vox, or someone else can provide at least one concrete and specific example of how the book crushes Dawkins, I'm pretty sure there will be no trickle.

Any author on the subject in question should be able to provide at least one concise example or argument contained within their book. Vox has failed to do so. Perhaps he is incapable, or more likely, his megalomania won't allow him to stoop so low. He's left it to his flunkys, who can't seem to do it either.

When I read a book (fiction or non-fiction) that I enjoy, I'm always able to provide specific examples of themes, characters, plots, arguments, positions, writing style, etc., that I can use to convince others that the book is worth reading.

If someone (like you), comes up and says, "you should read this book." And I say, "why?" And you answer, "because it's really good." And I say, "why is it really good?". And you say, "because it just is." Then, I will tell you that I will not read the book, because I have a limited amount of time and I'd rather spend my time reading books for which I have been given meaningful recommendations. Get it?

211. Belief in Belief

Comment #120414 by mesomodel on February 1, 2008 at 3:47 pm

Another not so funny hunting story:

I was back in the Kansas hinterlands visiting the sister-in-law's family over christmas. (Yes, they're god-fearing folk.) The day of Xmas my teenage nephew got a call. Seems one of his best friends was killed in a roll-over pickup accident on a dirt road. His friend was out by himself "hunting" coyotes with the new rifle he got for Xmas.

What a great way to celebrate (what they believe was) the birth of their lord. Go out and kill coyotes for fun. I guess god was with the folks hunting deer.

212. 'Irrational Atheist' trounces God-deniers

Comment #120283 by mesomodel on February 1, 2008 at 11:37 am

is there anyone who has a link to the page where you can download vox day's "the irrational atheist" for however much you choose to pay for it?

Check the recycle bin next to the printer. If you walk it down to the recycle facility you might even be able to make a few cents.

213. 'Irrational Atheist' trounces God-deniers

Comment #120034 by mesomodel on February 1, 2008 at 7:38 am

Steve, Not sure if I really want to back to a discussion with blacknad about Sweden, but I did happen to find the following article which pretty much refutes his "myth" contention. http://tinyurl.com/2mf473

214. 'Irrational Atheist' trounces God-deniers

Comment #119794 by mesomodel on January 31, 2008 at 7:46 pm

"If you have any poo, fling it now." From the movie Madagascar (my little one's favorite).

215. 'Irrational Atheist' trounces God-deniers

Comment #119790 by mesomodel on January 31, 2008 at 7:43 pm

To the Vox mobile my minions!! Nyeehahahaaaa!!! IIII'llll GET you, Richard Dawkins.net!!!

I was thinking more along the lines of the wicked witch and flying monkeys in the Wizard of Oz. "I'll get you and your little Dawkins, too!"

216. 'Irrational Atheist' trounces God-deniers

Comment #119785 by mesomodel on January 31, 2008 at 7:37 pm

I will give the Dawkins.Net crew one week to select seven representatives to respond to each of those seven points

Yes, that would look good on his resume, wouldn't it?

217. 'Irrational Atheist' trounces God-deniers

Comment #119752 by mesomodel on January 31, 2008 at 7:17 pm

LorienRyan, I'll make a point to view them. Thanks again.

218. 'Irrational Atheist' trounces God-deniers

Comment #119733 by mesomodel on January 31, 2008 at 7:05 pm

LorienRyan and DoubleBass: Thanks for the links. I wish I could be a professional surfer and reader so that I could spend my life soaking all this stuff up.

219. 'Irrational Atheist' trounces God-deniers

Comment #119714 by mesomodel on January 31, 2008 at 6:52 pm

Radesq: Not sure you'll get an answer from TBA. But, I wonder if the question about the center of the universe is well posed. A center implies there exists some edge from which to determine a point that is equidistant from the edge. But, space is contained within the universe; there is no edge. Therefore, I don't think there is a center. Can someone more knowledgeable confirm this?

220. 'Irrational Atheist' trounces God-deniers

Comment #119705 by mesomodel on January 31, 2008 at 6:45 pm

Re: Big bang vs. big stretch. I seem to recall an anology (wish I could remember where I saw it) that the universe can be thought of as a balloon with galaxies on its surface. As the balloon inflates, the galaxies aren't "moving", but the fabric of space is expanding. Thus, all galaxies are "moving" away from each other. This is not a result of actual motion of the galaxies on the balloon, but because the space between them is being stretched. So, I think the big stretch is quite appropriate. At least to the extent that the analogy holds.

221. 'Irrational Atheist' trounces God-deniers

Comment #119700 by mesomodel on January 31, 2008 at 6:40 pm

The Doppler effect (with sound) is an analogy with light.. it's called "Red Shift". As something is moving away from us, its light is shifted to red the end of the spectrumâ€¦ and the further away the observation, the greater the red shift.

That the redshift is greater for objects farther away is true, but only because they are moving away from us more quickly (in the sense that the universe is expanding; they objects are not actually moving faster through space). This is what I would call the cosmological red shift; it directly relates distance to speed (via Hubble). But, there is also a physical red shift. For example, redshift can be used to distinguish atmospheric methane absorption on Mars from that on Earth. If both planets were stationary with respect to each other, they signatures would be indistinguishable. But, since there is relative motion, the signal from Mars is shifted (red when moving away Earth, blue when moving toward Earth). I think the confusion over "red shift" arises because it is used in two different contexts.

222. 'Irrational Atheist' trounces God-deniers

Comment #119682 by mesomodel on January 31, 2008 at 6:26 pm

Steve, Thanks. I understand Hubble's law, and I did think that there is a distance R where the expansion was equal to the speed of light (R=c/H).

223. 'Irrational Atheist' trounces God-deniers

Comment #119671 by mesomodel on January 31, 2008 at 6:15 pm

DBA: Thanks for the link!

224. 'Irrational Atheist' trounces God-deniers

Comment #119669 by mesomodel on January 31, 2008 at 6:13 pm

Of course no object (e.g., particle or moron) can travel faster than the speed of light. But, I'm talking about expansion of space. That's not an object. For example the phase speed of a wave can exceed c.

225. 'Irrational Atheist' trounces God-deniers

Comment #119658 by mesomodel on January 31, 2008 at 6:03 pm

Steve, Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Universe has (or is presently) expanding faster than the speed of light. Therefore, we can't actually see from one end to the other. We can see back in time up to a point, but we can't see beyond ~13.7 billion light years away since the light hasn't had time to travel to us.

226. 'Irrational Atheist' trounces God-deniers

Comment #119644 by mesomodel on January 31, 2008 at 5:54 pm

Interesting questions can be raised even by the most ignorant, but you are right.

Sort of like there are no stupid questions, just stupid people. Does anyone know to whom I can attribute that quote?

227. 'Irrational Atheist' trounces God-deniers

Comment #119605 by mesomodel on January 31, 2008 at 5:27 pm

How do we get rid of this guy?!

Wooter him. (Multiple troll button w/ follow up emails to Josh as needed.)

228. 'Irrational Atheist' trounces God-deniers

Comment #119566 by mesomodel on January 31, 2008 at 4:58 pm

Let me also attack this from another angle. You have made a false connection between cause and effect. It may be that the UK is full of crime-ridden pregnant atheist teenagers and that the more religious countries are not. But a correlation doesn't imply cause and effect. You know global warming is directly correlated with a decrease in the number of pirates.

229. 'Irrational Atheist' trounces God-deniers

Comment #119535 by mesomodel on January 31, 2008 at 4:46 pm

A society can be secular even with a belief in god or gods. It can mean that it doesn't guide their everyday life. Turkey is constitutionally secular (although I think they do a piss-poor job of enforcing it), but are individually highly religious.

230. 'Irrational Atheist' trounces God-deniers

Comment #119528 by mesomodel on January 31, 2008 at 4:43 pm

I think it might be more useful to talk about mental heath of those who believe they have actually heard voices.

I have a friend that had to take a psych exam prior to joining the police. One of the questions was "Do you hear voices?" The follow up question was "Do you answer them back?" I suspect they're aren't to many folks that make the police force by answering yes to either one.

231. 'Irrational Atheist' trounces God-deniers

Comment #119521 by mesomodel on January 31, 2008 at 4:39 pm

Shall we talk about the myth of atheist Sweden?

No. But you can take the position that it is a Myth if you'd like. That's your perogative. I never said Sweden was atheist. What I said was that it was strongly secular. Are they atheist? Of course not.

232. 'Irrational Atheist' trounces God-deniers

Comment #119510 by mesomodel on January 31, 2008 at 4:34 pm

How can we debate anything if people just want to attack from all angles instead of following an ordered sequence of arguments?

I agree with you on this (at least). My typing can't keep up with the thread.

233. 'Irrational Atheist' trounces God-deniers

Comment #119504 by mesomodel on January 31, 2008 at 4:33 pm

The Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark and Finland topped the standings."

Yes. Exactly. All the "top" countries are strongly secular. England should be more so, as so the U.S. That would solve the problem.

234. 'Irrational Atheist' trounces God-deniers

Comment #119495 by mesomodel on January 31, 2008 at 4:28 pm

"Over the past two decades, a lot of studies have uncovered a strong positive association between religiousness and mental health.

So what? Are you arguing we should perpetuate lies so that we can be happy? Why not just take drugs?
Of course, Marx thinks these are on in the same.

In any case, why wouldn't religiousness be associated with mental health? This is usually the case whenever you get a large group of like minded people together. It's human nature to be social.

Exercise also promotes mental well being. Therefore, god exists.

235. 'Irrational Atheist' trounces God-deniers

Comment #118931 by mesomodel on January 31, 2008 at 7:25 am

Comment #118926 by al-rawandi:

Ditto. What he said.

236. 'Irrational Atheist' trounces God-deniers

Comment #118288 by mesomodel on January 30, 2008 at 3:02 pm

Just catching up on this thread. Was I hallucinating or did the exchange I just read really transpire? It was like the arrogance of a certain occasional poster whose name also describes a small two-wheeled vehicle crossed with the idiocy of a poster that was once rhymed with Roto-rooter.

237. Atheism and Violence

Comment #118054 by mesomodel on January 30, 2008 at 9:22 am

Artful_Dodger,

Whether there is an absolute or relative moral truth is irrelevant to the question of whether god or gods exist.

If you want to argue that society should follow (your) god, because it's good for society regardless of whether (your) god actually exists then go for it. And expect to be pummeled. Religion is the opium of the people, right? Likewise, expect to pummeled if you argue that moral absolutes demand the existence of (your) god.

238. Heath Ledger Death: Baptist Group To Protest At Memorial

Comment #115714 by mesomodel on January 24, 2008 at 2:51 pm

Sometimes I lament that the human mind is not more like the M5 computer in Star Trek. If it was, we'd see heads like MissC77 smoke and explode from all the stored contradictions.

239. Life-Forming Chemicals Found in Distant Galaxy

Comment #115495 by mesomodel on January 24, 2008 at 8:45 am

One thing I hope to see before I die, is spectroscopy on the atmospheres of Earth-like, extra-solar planets. I expect to live another 30-40 years, so I think my wish is not too unrealistic?

The James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) is the first step in this direction. Launch is planned in 2013 and it will park at L2.

You can go to http://www.jwst.nasa.gov/index.html for more info. Below is a snippet:

"The sensitive instruments on JWST will be able to obtain infra-red images of giant planets and planetary systems and characterize their ages and masses by measuring their spectra. The JWST will also be able to measure spectra of the disks around other stars to determine the constituents of such disks that give rise to planetary systems."

240. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113532 by mesomodel on January 20, 2008 at 12:29 am

Scooter,

I'm glad to see you've come around to my side.

I stated that it was stupid to affirm the the statement that success in life [is] merely a product of one's good or poor decisions.

I then provided an example to illustrate my assertion: the case of a child, who finds themselves through no fault of their own (and certainly not as a result of their decisions) in a situation that is by all measures hopeless. Regardless of any future decisions they might make (as a child or adult), there is no chance of success.

You responded:

"Can I hold the child accountable for being in the situation � no � you're an idiot to say otherwise."

So, apparently, you now agree that success in life is not merely a product of one's decisions, but rather also potentially a product of other's decisions (e.g., parents, governments).

Quod erat demonstrandum.

I could stop here, but let me also point out a few things:

1) What I presented was not a "stupid hypothetical", but a real world example. You are aware that what I described really is happening on a regular basis. You know that, right? Well, if not, now you do.

2) The fact that the real world example involves a child is iconsequential. Even after your self-defined age of reason (eight???? Really?), one can find themselves through no fault of their own in a situation in which no possible combination of future decisions will permit success. Want another example? Suppose after you read this, the police knock down your door and arrest you for a murder in Texas that you didn't commit? You're tried, wrongly convicted and sentenced to death. Did the past choices you made result in this? Likely not. What choices will you make going forward to achieve success? Seems to me the only choice you have is your last meal. Hypothetical? No. Shit like this happens in the real world.

3) You asked me at one point what I had done about the situation in Darfur. I support huminitarian and human rights organizations that provide relief, help and a political voice to those who can't help themselves. Maybe I could do more. Maybe that's the wrong way to go about it. But at least it's something.

4) You objected to the attempt to "dismantle the ideas presented". That's exactly the point. If one can show a fallacy in any part of the opposing argument, then the opposing argument is false.

I leave you now with one final thought. In the infamous words of the Seinfeld soup nazi. No soup for you! Next!

241. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113452 by mesomodel on January 19, 2008 at 3:24 pm

While I await an answer from Scooter, I'm afraid I'll have to sign off for a while. I've got some very good free-thinking friends coming for dinner, and I have a father-daughter day planned with my six year old tomorrow. I'll be sure to have a discussion about sympathy and empathy with her.

Have a good weekend everyone.

242. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113445 by mesomodel on January 19, 2008 at 3:15 pm

Nice try, but you didn't answer the question.

You answered "Yes" to the following question:
"I'll ask again though is success in life merely a product of one's good or poor decisions?"

You then responded to my example by giving examples where others external to the individual play the key role in success.

So again. which is it going to be?

243. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113426 by mesomodel on January 19, 2008 at 2:55 pm

Where does the accountability start?

Oh, that's right - with the parents who decided to have sex unprotected which lead to having a child being brought into a situation that is of horrible circumstance

Oh and it doesn't stop there, they had LOTS of kids brought into this situation

So where's the accountability factor?

Seems you want to have it both ways. Sorry. On one hand, you're saying that our trajectory to success in life is strictly a function of the choices we make. On the other hand, your saying it's the parents' or government's fault for the child's situation. As for what I am doing about Darfur and other tragedies, I'd be happy to discuss that at another time. And, according to you, it shouldn't matter what I do, it's all up to the child to make the right choices to achieve success. So which is it? Is it all about personal choices, or do external forces sometimes put us in such shitty situations that our lives are doomed to misery and failure not matter what we do? Please choose one of these options or or demonstrate that you can hold simultaneously both positions and not be self-contradictory.

244. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113400 by mesomodel on January 19, 2008 at 1:54 pm

"I'll ask again though is success in life merely a product of one's good or poor decisions?"

Yes.

That's the stupidest thing I've heard in a long, long time. Remind me to tell this to the Darfur toddler that just saw her father shot in the back of the head after having his limbs chopped off, and then watching her mother get gang raped and burned alive in her hut with all her siblings.
Yeah, her success in life will be a function of the choices she makes. Idiot.

245. Huckabee Wants A 'Faith-based' Constitution

Comment #113169 by mesomodel on January 18, 2008 at 6:13 pm

I'm not happy with any of the candidates. But at least Obama has explicit statements about the importance of the separation of church and State in the policy points listed on his web site. I'd rather he had a position on the insanity of the state of the church. I'll take what I can get.

246. Huckabee Wants A 'Faith-based' Constitution

Comment #113168 by mesomodel on January 18, 2008 at 6:07 pm

al-rawandi:

I wasn't trying to insult you, but I know some huge twits from Colorado

None taking. :-)

247. Huckabee Wants A 'Faith-based' Constitution

Comment #113103 by mesomodel on January 18, 2008 at 2:48 pm

Maybe when you live in fucking Colorado. Go somewhere within 100 miles of an ocean and the intellect ticks up just a bit.

I work in Boulder and live just outside the city. It's an oasis of relatively free thinkers.

However, go ahead and drive over the hills a bit east of the Bay Area into the central valley..well within 100 miles of the Ocean, and start twit counting.

It's true that the coasts and large cities tend to be more intellectual. I still say that's the exception rather than the rule.

248. Huckabee Wants A 'Faith-based' Constitution

Comment #113081 by mesomodel on January 18, 2008 at 2:24 pm

So when the US runs out of qualified engineers who can keep the things tip top will they outsource to China I wonder?

There won't be anything to outsource. Technology and innovation will originate in those countries that produce the scientists and engineers. There will be no need to have the U.S. in the loop.

249. Huckabee Wants A 'Faith-based' Constitution

Comment #113077 by mesomodel on January 18, 2008 at 2:20 pm

People act like all Americans are retarded twits.

Not true. We just accept that the great majority of the country is populated by retarded twits.

250. Huckabee Wants A 'Faith-based' Constitution

Comment #113072 by mesomodel on January 18, 2008 at 2:18 pm

I'm going to stand on a corner somewhere on my university campus tomorrow and find out what percentage of students here accept evolution, accept global warming, can find the Pacific Ocean on a map, and know the color of an orange.

Make sure you also ask, "why they accept global warming (or not)" or "why they accept evolution (or not)" Is it because they actually thought about it and came to logical decision? Or, is it because someone told them so (dogma).

In the case of global warming, I often found students to have a strong opinion one way or the other, but rarely have any solid reason for their position.

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