201. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #163165 by Roland_F on April 18, 2008 at 3:31 am

2248. Comment #163129 by Egomaniac

Is it inconceivable that such people could actually enjoy their lives despite believing in said power(s)?

Focusing on some hypothetical afterlife is distracting the here and now, the only life you have, and times run out and you wasted all your free time with prayer and feeling guilty of sins. And you waste a lot of sacrifices of llambs, rice bowls or whatever, which you could better use to feed your starving kids rather than the street dogs and rats.

Only poor people hope for an afterlife?

No I said for a BETTER afterlife as the current life in poverty, starvation and suppression is not very satisfying.
So instead of 'opium' maybe better call it valium for the poor masses. When you visit India with around half billion people living below the poverty line , you will see that this Hinduism and the hope for a better afterlife as rich person is just calming down social unrest, similar in Christian third world countries or the Christian history of the dark ages.

So to join both statement you might only feel better to bear your current low life based on the hope of a better afterlife.

I'm aware of the Buddhist position on God, and I find it illogical.

The Buddhist position is there is no God very simple all strength is only coming from yourself. And reincarnation based on Karma is practically the same (of course based on historical development of B out of H)., and beside the multitude of Hinduism Goddesses, also here the main idea of all interconnectedness of all sentient beings, the 33 Millions Gods as the number of people around during this times, e.g. each is his own God and is responsible for his own Karma based on deeds not on faith.

202. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #163128 by Roland_F on April 18, 2008 at 2:52 am

2197. Comment #162783 by MPhil

What shall I say - I study under a professor who holds a chair where the catholic church needs to give its okay for the candidate to fill it - a chair in philosophy, not theology mind you. ... in a country where "Reverence for god" is the highest goal of education - as laid down in the constitution.

Hallo Michael, unfrei im Freistaat Bayern ?!

reminds me about a book "introduction of Logic" (Corazon L. Cruz) the only one I could find in the Catholic country I am residing currently.

preface: [It is my hope that while students learn the principles of correct reasoning .... It is my hope, too, that they grow in wisdom, aware of the intimations of love of God and their fellowmen in and between the lines]

And the content goes like this:
Universal quantifiers [Every sunrise is a beautiful gift of God, Prayer is the lifting of one's mind and heart to God]
Obversion : [No uncharitable person is a true lover of God]

Enthymeme Syllogism: [God is the supreme good, therefore God is infinitely loveable]

And so on, I really prefer the Boolean logic from my applied informatics study compared to this.
So your Philosophy study is similar then ?

203. Sexpelled: No Intercourse Allowed

Comment #163090 by Roland_F on April 18, 2008 at 1:31 am

And again the bad atheist ( anti-christs ) looking down on us you terrible herretics !
Of course the stork delivers the baby - and guess what ?
It's just another incarnation of the Holy Ghost !
So the myth how to deliver a baby and keep the mother a recurring virgin is explained.
Thanks in the name of all Christians (Horus son of virgin Isis worshipping Paulinists)

204. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #162573 by Roland_F on April 17, 2008 at 4:50 am

2075. Comment #162542 by Sargeist

I'm not sure what the problem is with people believing something that is not true, if it makes them happy and doesn't harm other people.

Unfortunately the theists are not retreating back to some cave as eremites but they want to force their delusion about Bronze age fairy tales to the entire society.
Every public hearing, every discussion has to invite and accommodate at least one or most times several 'faith heads' to talk on whatever issue is discussed. The religious people like to force their delusions into every aspect of daily life, censor movies, make politics, invade Biology teaching in school with a Christian Genesis Myth, cause suffering in developing countries from overpopulation and the spread from AIDS (no condoms !),suffering from diseases by preventing research with stem cells, wars and atrocities based on religion, suppression of women (forced marriages of just 8 year old girls, genital mutilation), and so on.
So the 'causing no harm' is just a hypothetical consideration of an eremite and not the real life.

205. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #162527 by Roland_F on April 17, 2008 at 3:38 am

2022. Comment #162482 by Egomaniac on April 17, 2008 at 2:49 am

The notion of a continued existence after death, along with the idea that the manner in which one's life has been lived will influence the level of quality of said existence adds meaning to many people's lives.

Must be a very sad existence to life only in the hope of an afterlife, regret each thought about joy just in the hope for an better afterlife rather than enjoying the here and now : the only life you have.
This hope of a better afterlife is just the 'opium for the poor' to bear the suppression of the ruling cleptocrats and clerics.

The idea that people will be reunited with loved ones who have passed on adds great meaning to people's lives.

Then commit suicide on the spot, so you are united with all your already dead loved ones.

Neither of these seems possible without the existence of some higher power, does it?

Learn about Hinduism and Buddhism, their central Karma function is working without a God as all knowing judge to decide the level of rebirth.


2045. Comment #162508 by Egomaniac on April 17, 2008 at 3:21 am

I'm a little short on time, as it's late here

And your first post on April 17, 2008 at 2:16 am Ok another hit and run theists.

206. Yoko Ono, Filmmakers Caught in 'Expelled' Flap

Comment #162403 by Roland_F on April 16, 2008 at 9:58 pm

2. Comment #162393 by tman

Somebody please start suing them!

Why should someone jump into the lions den and risk a costly lawsuit against the religious multi billion US$ organization ?
We had another discussion tread here about copyright infringement of the 'Expelled' trailer animation movie sequence of inner cell activities.

The 'Expelled' producers have the best lawer for copyright infringement on their legal team, very deep pockets and most of their budget reserved for lawsuits not for producing the film.

So it's like Microsoft: take the good ideas from small companies who can't survive a legal battle or just sue them yourself to bankrupt them to get their ideas for free (or just the salary of you legal department which M$ has anyway on their permanent payroll)

207. Victims: Pope Benedict Protects Accused Pedophile Bishops

Comment #162378 by Roland_F on April 16, 2008 at 7:25 pm

64. Comment #162374 by Goldy
ok it's joke time:

An Altar Boy is asleep in the confession box, when a woman from the neighboring village enters the church and goes for confession.
She confessed that she had sex with the priest from the neighboring parish ad awaits the verdict of the punishment, not knowing she is confessing to the altar boy who woke up in-between.

So he whispers to the other altar boy : "how much do you get for sex with the priest ?
The other altar boys answers : "I always get 2 Snickers chocolate bars "

208. Victims: Pope Benedict Protects Accused Pedophile Bishops

Comment #162373 by Roland_F on April 16, 2008 at 7:07 pm

You see it all wrong ! It's not the priests fault or the supression of the truth from the vatican - it all the fault of the US society !

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/storypage.aspx?StoryId=115258

here some parts of this discusting story:

WASHINGTON - Pope Benedict XVI on Wednesday berated US bishops for their poor handling of the child sex scandal that has rocked the Roman Catholic church, but laid part of the blame on the breakdown of values in US society.
"What does it mean to speak of child protection when pornography and violence can be viewed in so many homes through media widely available today?" the pontiff said on the first full day of his US visit.

So it's all the society and the media's fault - of course nothing wrong with the priests and no apology for abuse or cover up !

Instead, he had measured praised for the efforts made so far by the US church to heal the wounds left by the scandal.
Your efforts to heal and protect are bearing great fruit," he told the bishops

In the German online news (Spiegel) I read yesterday that the number of active US priests involved in child abuse is 4,000 (out of 42,000 active priests in the USA) and with all the shame of parents and children and the cover up the number might be even much higher !

So the number of 11,000 child abuse cases in the US priesthood overall during the last 50 years(including all retired and already dead priests and Bishops) I mentioned here in an earlier post might be realistic.

209. Victims: Pope Benedict Protects Accused Pedophile Bishops

Comment #161875 by Roland_F on April 15, 2008 at 8:03 pm

6. Comment #161485 by Jolly Bl

So the Pope has come to America for a visit. One of his goals is to "heal sex abuse wounds" of the countless victims of priest rape. The audacity of this man astonishes me.

The Catholic church was called from an insider (Prof at a Catholic theological university in Germany) as the " biggest transnational gay organization". Some cases in Germany were hardly prosecuted based on the shame of the parents and the pressure of the surrounding Catholic community not to go against priests. So complaint letters to the Bishop just resulted into the re-assignment of the pedophile priest to the next village, mainly because the Catholic church is running out of new priests and have to stick with the few they have whether pedophile or not.
Somewhere I remember there were 11,000 cases of child abuses in the USA not sure if this is the tip of the iceberg or the entire iceberg ?

But what would religious fundamentalist like Vox Day or Dinesh D'Souza spinning out of this ? Maybe something like the statistics show that there are much more injuries of young boys caused from sport accidents than altar boys injuries after anal priestly accidents of a torn sphincter.
Spin doctoring about torn sphincter.
So all parents better bring your boys to the church so they become altar boys and not enroll them to sports.

210. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #161838 by Roland_F on April 15, 2008 at 7:20 pm

1702. Comment #161771 by bringingithome4u

Is there an organized campaign within scientific academia to actively discredit the work or opinions of otherwise very well qualified professors and scientists simply because they hold that intelligent design theory is creditable in conflict with pure Darwinism theory? Are both avenues of scientific thought treated equally in discourse and investigation, or is there actual discrimination occurring within the halls of our colleges and universities?

ID is not a scientific theory it is just a new name for creationism, their main 'Panda and People' teaching book just replaced created by designed and is simply a religious book as shown during the Dover trial.
Please check the book 'Why Darwin matters' from Michael Shermer an ex Creationists, who researched insights of the ID organization including their funding from fundamentalists religious organizations and Shermer exposed IDiots only idea is to sabotage science and spread the word of a Christian God.
So it's not science, they don't make testable and falsifiable hypothesis ending up in consistent theories at all, but just propagating Christianity under a clumsy cover of 'science'.
So their ID or creationist alternative to Evolution is just the Genesis story of the Bible : 2 pages of self contradicting versions, a simple bronze age description from a desert tribe contradicting any modern science like light before stars are formed, day and night before earth was formed and rotate, version 1 animals before humans, version 2 humans before animals and simple 'just so' stories and nonsense.
So why not teaching also Hinduism myths, Scientologist Space Opera science fiction story and all other religious fairy tails and superstition in school ?!

And you bringingithome4u are seriously thinking this ID of propagating 2 pages of the Bible should be granted 50% of the biology lessons in school to be 'balanced' ??
And how should the 50% for ID be filled : Evolution is wrong God did it ! just takes a minute of time.
Possibly you have no idea what ID really is ?!

You may not believe in a deity or guiding intellect, but you certainly must believe or have faith in the credibility of those human individuals presenting their evidentiary substance and ideas as facts in order to completely accept the theory they are presenting.

I think you mix up faith and believe with trust.

So I trust that the scientists for many centuries are describing correctly the planetary movements around the sun, and are not all conspiring globally against the earth as the center of the universe to harm Christian dogmas.
I trust that the gravitation is described correctly in the theory from Newton and is working accurately in the usual human environment and we need some adjustments when the speed and mass density is reaching relativistic significant proportions.
And I trust that the theory of Natural Selection is describing correctly the main aspects of Evolution and so far all related scientific areas from embryology, molecular genetic, the paleontology with it's fossil record are all fitting in neatly and confirming the Theory of Natural Selection day for day.

So what's is your alternative you trust in , the word of you local priest demanding your faith into the Bible, the Trinity and the holy Catholic church ; or of your local Mullah demanding faith into the prophets Mohammed teaching ?

Faith in the Bible, a Bronze age book scribbled on sheepskin from desert Nomads which is self contradicting and is always falsified for it's stories whether the great flood, the exodus, the 40 years in the Sinai desert, Jericho had no walls which could tremble down around 1100-1200BC and so on and on and on.

211. The simple falsehood at the heart of Expelled

Comment #161286 by Roland_F on April 15, 2008 at 5:49 am

179. Comment #161238 by BillySands

Thanks for this historical wrap up of 1 millennia anti Jewish atrocities in the name of Pauline Christianity which already started 2000 years ago by distorting history pro Roman and blaming Jews alone for the death of Jesus.
.
Unfortunately our self proclaimed "holocaust experts" David A Robertson, purposely ignores this 2000 years of anti Semitic history, because otherwise his totally distorted equation : Darwinism => Atheism => Hitler => Holocaust would not work.

212. The simple falsehood at the heart of Expelled

Comment #161201 by Roland_F on April 15, 2008 at 2:58 am

156. Comment #161189 by clearthinker

There were many factors involved in the holocaust - not least the rejection of Christianity by the Nazis.

Evolution is just describing natural selection of species based on Genes, so what has this to do with artificial selection of (1) religion (Jewish versus Christian dogmas ) which is not a species and (2) the subjective favor of blond hair and blue eyes of an Austrian with dark hair and brown eyes.

I know personally at least 12 lecturers or post doc biologists who do not buy into every aspect of evolution.

Which is totally different than a hard core IDiot who thinks the earth is 6000 years old and God created all animals separate and there is no evolution.

So your concern is about biologist who have some small doubts about some aspects of evolution to be harassed from fundamentalist atheists ?!?
Your arguments of 'expelled' IDiots are watering down like arnica in a homeopathic solution.

213. The simple falsehood at the heart of Expelled

Comment #161177 by Roland_F on April 15, 2008 at 2:20 am

137. Comment #161151 by clearthinker

Firstly you actually miss the point of Expelled. Its major charge is that there are scientists in academia who are being 'expelled' or discriminated against because they dare to question some aspects of Darwinism (the hint is in the title of the film). If this accusation is false then that is the 'falsehood at the heart of expelled'. If the accusation is correct then it is profoundly disturbing

If 'Expelled' makes wrong accusations is lying and distorting it's just "falsehood" , but when the claim that creationists have difficulties in the science community it is true it is " profoundly disturbing".
Thank you David A. Robertson for the insight and acknowledgement of your double standards, or should I say single standard: lying for Jesus is of course allowed and no sin under Christian morality.

There was an audio link posted some days back on one of the (far too) many treads here about this, where the producer of 'Expelled' was interviewed and it showed up that the creationist scientists allegedly harassed because of his believe was even promoted and had more freedom in his job. Possible Robertson already came along it, but of course ignores all evidence as usual (deja vu).

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=a-conversation-with-mark-mathis

I would not have believed it until I started getting letters and e-mails from scientists who requested that I do not use their name because they feared for their careers and their jobs.

Oh really many scientist from all over the world are mailing you to seek protection and help from you (a Scottish highland priest) against the bad Evolutionist mafia in science. LOL

About the 'few point Hitler = Darwinist" .
There were so many quotations of Hitler here and even 'discussions' with you (if you can really call your one-sided ignorance of facts a 'discussion') : all public speeches, Mein Kampf and other writings of Hitler show he at least claims to fulfill Gods will with the holocaust. And both main churches in Germany willfully colluded with Hitler, as did the churches in Spain with Franco and Italy with Mussolini. And don't forget again that Stalin grew up under strict religious teaching and learned there the power of indoctrination and cult.

Robertson can't still stop the bad habit of theist, to link evil persons to the atheist camp to give them a bad image.
But don't worry as all faithful persons independent of their evil doings in life will go to heaven according to Christian dogma, you might meet Hitler, Franco and Mussolini there and can discuss their true feelings.

214. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #159777 by Roland_F on April 13, 2008 at 5:48 am

1050. Comment #159773 by Styrer

Thanks for the lyrics

Now join in on at least ONE of the above before

Actually I could sign up to most of the lines not only ONE, however without this fu*** words.

And when you read my posts during the last month you will find out that I am one of the more agressive and outspoken anti Bible-Pauline-Distorionist here.

before I set David Robertson on you

Who is already praying for you, JON_S, for me and a couple of other "lost souls" - which interests me like a sack of rice falling down in China !!

215. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #159769 by Roland_F on April 13, 2008 at 4:54 am

Jon_Sociologist and Styrer

Gentlemen - thank you very much for your outburst of personal insulting attacks.
Beside the small minority of active posters out of > 25,000 registered bloggers here, the RD.net has the third highest audience in the (Uk ?) blog scene as was stated last month.

Here is also a place where notorious spin doctors, distorters and liars like D. Robertson are quote mining, and you just filled his arsenal to "prove the bad atheists mindset' for the next year.

I don't know what happened to R. Morgan (the name don't sound very French ) or whatever his real name is. I first encountered his then interesting posts as ex-Mormon in January, when I joined here after reading again TGD with the WWW link after another Christmas in a Catholic country spoiling everything even the otherwise reasonable online news with incredible faith talk.

Some when later on the R.M. picture was replaced with a pink teddy and the posts got very strange R.M. total disillusionment of atheist as humanist softies "Gutmenschen" and finally culminating in his defection to Robertson's sin and devil centered misery cult.
Sorry R.M. (if you still lurk around here) that here is not the happy come together community for lonely guys who lost their faith but a battle zone of reason and science against the dark ages of superstition.
Maybe the ex-Mormon or ex-JW self help sites might be more suitable, or just try a more Buddhist approach that all the strength is inside and coming only from yourself, no God needed.

216. Did pre-big bang universe leave its mark on the sky?

Comment #158761 by Roland_F on April 11, 2008 at 2:48 am

Breaking the NOMA again and entering the last refuge of the "God of the gaps" the theist perception of the universe as the result of a "divine fart".
Let's see if the Planck space craft launched end of 2008 to increase the informations gatherd from WMAP so far, will bring new ideas about the global structure of the (observable) universe.
Plus some more info from the LHC like Higgs or no Higgs .... interesting times ahead !

217. Fleabytes

Comment #156517 by Roland_F on April 7, 2008 at 5:51 pm

Comment #156230 by Frankus1122 If Robertson's writings here are truly the best that can be offered in the way of 'evidence' or even rational argument for the existence of God then I feel okay.

You are still not convinced by the evidence provided ?? To pay for the open balance of 50 GBP for a bus trip totaling 80 GBP of the FCOS fieldtrip, God himself put the remaining money into an envelope and put it into the mailbox (or under the door) of Robertson's apartment. Therefore God exists !

As small kids we put our boots in front of our door on December 5, and guess what St Nicolas was coming over night ant put in candies and chocolate therefore St Nicolas exits !
And don't forget that Santa Claus was always nice and delivered promptly on December 24 most toys from the whish list to him therefore Santa Claus exists.

And the Easter rabbit this cute little bunny, always promptly hiding all the chocolate eggs and small nests with chocolate chickens for the egg hunt , therefore the Easter Rabbit exists.

How can the arrogant atheists dare to accept these proofs ?!

As Mark smith said on Steve's blog : http://zarbi.livejournal.com/114429.html

Theology seeks to find ways of understanding (and therefore describing) the God 'we' already believe in. Consequently, if those descriptions suggest difficulties with respect to God, then the descriptions must be changed or qualified, rather than giving reason to disbelieve

Yes a permanent redefinition is needed even on yearly cycles as December 6 and December 24 are so near St Nicolas and Santa Claus look so very similar (white beard, red coat etc.) but until the Godly incarnation of Easter rabbit is needed, it's enough time to change the appearance significantly.

218. Fleabytes

Comment #156220 by Roland_F on April 7, 2008 at 6:13 am

7692. Comment #156132 by clearthinker

7396 - Roland
And can't stop lying, distorting, spinning and misquoting, as pointed out so many times here.

Yes - it is pointed out many times. And every time it is pointed out I ask for evidence. And either there is complete silence or the 'evidence' says nothing of the sort.

The first time I was coming along the name David Robertson was here on this fleabytes tread, where I learned that Robertson is claiming to be banned from RD.net and is denied the chance to answer Paula's review. My reply #211 was everybody can create a new user and continue posting: so Robertson's claim he can't post here is a lie : as Robertson ala Clearthinker is a user since Nov-2007 and is happily posting since then:
Comment #86038 by clearthinker on November 7, 2007 at 11:58 pm

Robertson claims that no post to the forum on his own webpage from FCOS are removed once it went thru the censoring of the moderator , however critical posts from _J_ slipped trough were removed later. As there were claims from posters on the FCOS forum that D.R. is one of the moderators despite his contrary claims.
But I am really not scanned trough 7000 posts here to find this postings, I have more important things to do and recall only from memory.

Same like the several mails exchanged with Paula about the proceedings of the Inverness event which are beyond RD influence. There is no pre-censoring of questions, the are not only RD handpicked guests invited, what were main concerns of Robertson. All their events are only performed by one single speaker and other events for theist are planned later, still Robertson goes to the BBC and claims otherwise.

I think distortions and misquotations are highlighted from the affected persons several times themselves, no need to collect them all.

219. Fleabytes

Comment #156201 by Roland_F on April 7, 2008 at 4:53 am

7691. Comment #156131 by clearthinker 7401 - Roland
This Golden rule was discussed here so many times and you know very well what it is.
So why do I have to repeat myself and other posters here all over again. Some theist even re-discovered it in the Bible and claimed the Golden Rule to be invented from Jesus.
Reciprocal altruism can be found all over the animal kingdom: don't do to others what you don't want them, do unto yourself. And this was also investigated so many times in game theory.

I love this. What fantastic proof of the fantasy world that some atheist live in. Disney and Dawkins get it together. The Golden Rule is 'do unto others as you would have them do to you. And this is found all over the animal kingdom. So the next time a seal takes a bite out of a salmon, a lion attacks a young deer, or a bird swipes up a worm - I must think this is the Golden Rule at work! Hilarious stuff!

Well well distorting again D. Robertson : you know quite well that the Golden Role is for creatures within a species not for interspecies competition like predators versus prey. And the 'selfish gene' is also for selection inside a species and you might have recognized that also homo sapiens is a species independent from theist claim of "created to be like God" or not.

And I notice that you still could not tell us what 'basic human rights' are, where they come from and if they are absolute

And again Robertson little game: you never give a proper reply yourself, and when I countered that there are more important topics to discuss on this planet than your self (or theist) invented evil as your perceived 'most important' question for humanity.
I also highlighted that you can enjoy a fulfilled life, especially if you don't harm yourself with following a sin and evil centered misery cult.
Another topic was that morality can't come from the Bible as it is extremely self contradicting and most of the time outright brutal hailing murder, slavery and genocide and all morality is cherry picked from morality standard outside the Bible.

And Robertson's reply : no answers or rebuttals at all, but obscure high level philosophical counter questions (red herrings) : " what is society ? from where human rights are coming ? are human rights absolute" all which have nothing at all to do with the topics discussed.
I even gave some short answers without falling into the red herring trap of getting lost in pages of philosophy about 'what society is' etc.

I gave already an answer about Human Right and I can repeat it again : basis is the Golden Rule, foundation the UN Charta of Humans rights, adopted from most countries, (before religious fundamentalist shot it down last week), and it's not absolute as it end's there where you hurt the rights of other sentient beings (which itself is coming back to the Golden Rule). Sorry if this is not the answer fitting into your limited worldview 'God did it' as supreme instance of 'absolute Human rights' or 'absolute morality' what you had obviously in mind. As the Bible is so brutal full of hatred and self contradicting (whether in old or modern English or Greek version) and is just the scribbling on sheepskins of primitive desert nomads and not the literally dictated word of God -- there can be no clearly communicated 'Gods absolute' rules anyway, but just your own ideas which should have more (or ultimate weight) just because you claim it's coming from God.

220. Dawkins warns of human extinction

Comment #155798 by Roland_F on April 5, 2008 at 10:14 pm

236. Comment #155753 by Cartomancer

One reliquary inscription alone and divorced from any corroborating evidence - even in cases where the reliquary itself is known genuinely to be authentic (this one isn't) - is a very poor basis for certainty.

The James ossuary is just one out of 6 inscribed bone-boxes and if it's from Talpiot or not is just increasing the statistic percentage of the name combination.
I am no chemical expert of 2000 year old patina (whether wall or inscription) but allegedly there is a perfect chemical match to the other 5 boxes so not only the lithographical style of the inscription.

I'm not entirely sure I understand this mathematical calculation for the combinatory likelihood of the names either - I struggle to see just how someone can come up with any numerical probability at all for something like that unless they have accurate and significantly complete records of name frequencies among the Semitic peoples of the area at the time

Some of the name frequencies are mentioned in the appendix of J.D. Tabors book. The source mentioned of the frequency : Lexicon of Jewish names in Late Antiquity : part1 (Tubingen: Mohr, Siebeck, 2002) Time span 330BC to 200AD.
I hope that this source is reliable ?!

And with these ratios you just multiply the overall combined ratio of all inscribed names based on the names and family relations known from the Bible.

221. Dawkins warns of human extinction

Comment #155797 by Roland_F on April 5, 2008 at 9:42 pm

231. Comment #155730 by Mitchell Gilks
Roland_F, you sound like a conspiracy theorist to me. If there is no peer reviewed, agreed upon accurate evidence, then I would advise not trusting it.

What is a conspiracy here ??
(1) some fancy resurrection stories from an old book like the Bible known to be following a political (Pauline) agenda and often self contradicting
(2) or just that the resurrection is an invented myth and the bones of a dead body of Jesus were just transported from the temporary burial site over Passover and brought just somewhere else ; whether Talpiot tomb or any other tomb X or Y or Z.

I would think the version 2 as much more reasonable than the resurrection story and are surprised you prefer version-1 ; are you on the 'Wheeler' trip again ??
Or are you running out of theist for bashing here and take on me now as exercise and call me therefore a crazy conspiracy spreader.

I mentioned the book title and author and when you check it it's not some 'DaVinci code' fiction author but quote [ Prof J.D. Tabor is a high profile biblical archeologist a distinguished scholar and chair of the department of religious studies at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte USA]. Like all serious books it has pages of cross reference listing to other published books and was cross reviewed from Prof Arthur J Droge, University of California. I am not a Biblical historian and don't know 'the who is who' in Biblical studies - not sure if this credentials are good enough for the author and peer review.

But Mitchell I get the (maybe wrong ?) feeling like I would quote from a Biology book of Prof Dawkins, as usual full of other references, cross reviewed from another high profile Biologist professors (like PZ Meyer or so...) and you would call me a conspiracy theorists and ask for peer reviewed proof !

Anyway I have no shares in J.D. Tabors book sale or whatever other interest than I really want to find out what happened. Of course every author is subjectively following his own ideas and interpretations and there might be controversies under scholars (like Dawkins versus Gold).

Actually the book is also not hiding the fact where the ossuary of James was found, is discussing openly the alleged forgery claim of the inscription but mentions that not only the walls patina were tested but as the ossuary was broken on the transport to some exhibition to the USA also the patina from the fracture e.g. deep inside the inscription, so very open and nothing hidden in his book, even it's written from some religious person.

As mentioned from me before the topic his highly explosive and of course uncountable people are extremely interested to hide, distort and reject everything as on the other side you might have 1 or 2 sensationalists with the interest to make things up.

Also as mentioned when searching Google you will find the truckloads of red herrings, scholars who allegedly refuted the idea who are surprised that they were mentioned as one of the critics ; really a very opaque story and very difficult to find out what is really the truth under this highly charged topic.
So not sure who of us two cached the more realistic story and who cached one of the many red herrings. So who is your 'reliable' counter source David Robertson or the Vatican spokesperson of the congregation of the true faith' ?

222. Cult leader Pyotr Kuznetsov tries suicide after realising he was wrong about doomsday

Comment #155614 by Roland_F on April 5, 2008 at 5:05 am

What a sad story again, luckily this time no one was dying, not like in the USA where several crazy doomsday cults where ending up in mass suicide, bloody shoot outs with police etc.
When someone says a huge pink rabbit is talking to me and gives me weird orders he/she ends up in the psychiatry, when someone says an old man with white beard named Yahweh or some person talking from the cross down to me, or I interpret some scribbling on sheepskin from 600BC, then this person is deeply respected from most of society and every attempt to address the delusion is considered politically incorrect and an attack against the 'special role' of religion in society.
Pathetic!

223. Dawkins warns of human extinction

Comment #155584 by Roland_F on April 5, 2008 at 1:57 am

202. Comment #155556 by Mitchell Gilks

Roland_F I assume you got that information from the "documentary" "The lost tomb of Jesus."?
It wasn't until Jacobovici caught wind of it, and sense a buck that he made a big deal about it

No I look for reliable sources and cross check with other historical facts you know, I am not acting based on faith or anti-faith but more on fact.
I've got most info about Talpiot tomb from the book 'The Jesus Dynasty' from James D. Tabor and followed up from there as this whole story of course is a bomb like the "rabbit fossil in the precabrium".

Surpisingly the book is written from a devout Christian, who exitedly travel to Jerusalem 40 years ago for the first time and uncovered more and more the history of the real Jesus history, digging around the area of Sepphoris (near Nazareth) exited with his students if these construction could be done from Jesus and his father Joseph almost like Artful_Dodger here mentioned before the wine pressing.
And James Tabor was even very happy that his big idol Jesus has obviously existed (even if mortal) and only the miracles were an Pauline invention and not the existence itself.

First many archeologist were confirming the ideas of Jacobovici and than later some are allegedly rejected the idea 'officially' (under pressure), some don't reject this idea privately etc. so really difficult to asses but of course this is an extremely explosive topic for the Christian faith, and as the Dead Sea scroll history shows the arm of the Vatican is long and powerfull.

Latest info about the inscription 'James brother of Jesus' are in the appendix of the 2007 edition, of course the owner of this ossuary facing a jail sentence of several years tried to mislead to the true location and date of this ossuary (before 1977 no legal consequences for tomb raiding).
Of course fanatical Christiand claimed the 'brother of Jesus' inscription was added in the 1980s even chemical analysis showed that the patina was cosintently for all letters 2000 years old ,as was the style of the letters, the style of the ossuary with all other in Talpiot, the chemical coposition of patina were all the same e.g. the James ossuary is 99,99% likely from Talpiot as well.
Also the paleo DNA extracted from the ossuary 'Jesus son of Joseph' were mentioned there in the appendix of Tabor's book, the DNA comparison Mary Magdalena and Jesus was carried out in Toronto in 2006.
Of course when looking up the internet for Talpiot Tomb, all the red herrings come up like the ossuaries are to luxurious for a poor man, when the next Christina claimed that the king of Jews of course will not have so simple boxes.
Other claim that Jesus son of Joseph is a very common name combination, however as combination of all the family members for the statistical name frequency of involved persons, the combination is 1: 42,723,672 e.g. a very high likelihood this can be the tomb of the Jesus from the Bible.

224. Dawkins warns of human extinction

Comment #155552 by Roland_F on April 4, 2008 at 7:51 pm

180. Comment #155414 by Dinah
Artful Dodger evidently has an infantile need to worship someone, so I suggest he switches his allegiance away from God and Jesus, and to Richard Dawkins

No God Yahweh has a long white beard like Zeus of course (or Santa Claus), not like Richard Dawkins - hey let's worship Daniel Dennet then ...

225. Dawkins warns of human extinction

Comment #155551 by Roland_F on April 4, 2008 at 7:46 pm

123. Comment #155301 by Artful_Dodger
the gospels ring true, Jesus, as reflected in the gospels, could not have been invented, and the bodily resurrection is the most plausible explanation for the events of the Sunday after his burial.

If the resurrection could be SHOWN not to have taken place, the whole thing would fall apart.

155. Comment #155340 by Artful_Dodger
As for the resurrection, it is the most plausible explanation for the empty tomb and the post-mortem appearances of the risen Christ. This was Jesus final and decisive challenge to Caesar

Ok then byebye to your Jesus son of God !! The body was hectically burried before the passover sunset into a temporary tomb (the location of the Sepulce is most unlikely the temporary place far too near to the holy temple and citywalls you don't bury dead there). So it was more likely at the foot of the mount of olives.
After the passover celebration the apostles moved the body to the final location talpiot tomb. There the entire family tomb was found in 1980 during construction and all bones buried at a secret place from Israel authorities.
The ossuaries (bone boxes) carry the name of mother Mary (latin Maria spelling), sister Salome, wife Mary Magdalen (DNA test of remaing ossurary bone dust confirmed no genetic relation so it's husband and wife), James brother of Jesus (and patina tests revealed that the inscription is 2000 years old not a 1980 fake) Jose (Jesus brother Joseph) and Judah son of Jesus and of course Jesus son of Joseph.
The statistic chances that this combination of all names togther are from another family are more than 42 million, so with only 3000 to 8000 families living in Jeruslam in the first century AD the chances are very high that it can be only 'THE' Jesus and his Clan.
Now you can research this up under Talpiot tomb you will of course find truckloads of red herrings trown from faithful Christinas all over the place, that why I made some comments already in ().

So there was no resurrection that's why the the most original (earliest 70AD) Gospel of Mark is simply ending with the empty tomb. And there was no big celebration of resurrection giving the apostlkes new strength and hope but rather a year long silence and the depressed apostles went back to Gallilee.
So the resurrection and the miracles of walking over water etc. are the Pauline inventions or more exactly the recycled Horus myth of 2000BC Egypt.
The real Jesus story was mainly suppressed from Saul/Paul and his influence to the gospels written between 70 and 100 AD. Also beside adding a resurrection later to Mark's gospel, the Josephus history was also doctored to include a Jesus as well as all no Pauline supporting history books were purged including Alexandrias library all in the 4th century AD after Nicaea.

226. Dawkins warns of human extinction

Comment #155218 by Roland_F on April 4, 2008 at 8:39 am

But not all knowledge, like it or not, is in fact contained within the realm that is scientifically observable

Ah, excellent. So how can we know anything about it? And how about some examples?

example = Russels teapot, Santa Claus, Yahweh

227. Dawkins warns of human extinction

Comment #155203 by Roland_F on April 4, 2008 at 8:27 am

21. Comment #155176 by Artful_Dodger

If the God of the Bible does indeed exist, there might be a very strong case for being prepared to meet him, don't you think? If he does not, not all that much is lost by believing in Him.

As Gods does not exits you lost and wasted your entire and only life submissing to a depressive misery cult, obsessed with sin and hell.
And that's exactly the point as you only have one life !

228. Protests no concern for outspoken atheist

Comment #155094 by Roland_F on April 4, 2008 at 7:01 am

33. Comment #155011 by Paula Kirby

Another asked a very bizarre question about why, if a 25-year-old man reproduces with a 25-year-old woman, the resulting embryo doesn't also start life at 25 years old ..... (I told you it was bizarre).

I don't know in which context this question was raised, if meant for the body of course weird, if from a dualist meant for the seoul quite reasonable : why has the person reborn with the seoul of an expirenced adult has to start again from zero to learn everything from the beginning but have alledgedly all the experience of the reborn soul ?!?
This I always would like to ask the Dalai Lama for example, when reading his books, he is talking about his own rebirth, but then explain the next page how he has to start from zero to learn Buddhist teaching all over again....

229. Protests no concern for outspoken atheist

Comment #155090 by Roland_F on April 4, 2008 at 6:47 am

34. Comment #155014 by RobDinsmore

I don't think it is fair to call these people dishonest. They are more then likely fully unaware of how irrational their beliefs and behavior are.

This was not a comment against all mebers of the FCOS this was about Robertson who has a track record as "WeaFlea" to insult people, get angry reactions for 'quote mining' as examples how bad atheists are.
And Robertson has long track record on the 'fleabytes tread' here of distorting, misquoting, spinning, never answering only thowing 'red herrings' , bullying people etc.
In short a morally very bad person, independ from his religious delusion - or he feels everything is allowed because 'lying for Jesus' is the first responsibility of faith.

230. Fleabytes

Comment #154381 by Roland_F on April 3, 2008 at 6:50 am

7600. Comment #154361 by gimlibengloin
" Saul/Paul -- the most notorious liar in the entire Bible."

And you can prove this of course.

The heatstroke is a likelihood in the dead sea area, quite hot there in summer. Or this alleged breakdown hearing of voices is just some distraction from Saul/Paul to gain accesses and trust from the resistance movement of the apostles.
The Dead Sea Scrolls were hidden from any public view from a scared Catholic "international team" and who knows what other 'smoking guns' were destroyed or locked away forever in the Vatican fault before it could be released to the public.
However as told before the Habakkuk commentaries mention Paul only as the liar, the history records show that the apostles summoned Paul back to Jerusalem for all the crazy miracle story inventions, and the followers of the real historic Jesus nearly killed Paul in the temple for all his Jesus distortions and he had to flee under heavy Roman protection
.
Did you never heard that the whole Christmas narrative was invented from Luke ; there was never a central Roman census, and the census in neighboring Syria was 6AD whereas Herod the great died 5BC. Everything is historical untrue from birth story to the last few days with Sanhedrin proceeding on a Sabbath, Roman and not Jewish responsibility for capital punishment etc.

gimlibengloin : Read some real not distorted history books. I mentioned a couple of them in the previous link.

Travel to Egypt and look at 2000BC engravings and see stories of Horus "the way, the truth, the light", born from a virgin (Isis), crucified together with 2 others, resurrected after 3 days. Sound very familiar ? I would feel very stupid indeed if I found out that the Jesus story is only a recycled 4000 year old Egyptian myth regurgitated from Saul/Paul..

231. Fleabytes

Comment #154353 by Roland_F on April 3, 2008 at 6:07 am

7577. Comment #154297 by gimlibengloin
In regard to Paul lying that isn't even an option for anyone who can read.

Hilarious !! The Saul/Paul who never met Jesus in person and just got a heatstroke on the way to the Dead Sea area to arrest the apostles lead by James and heard voices during his heat stroke. The most notorious liar in the entire Bible.
So gimlibengloin is it possible you yourself that you can't read any proper history book about the Bible and Judean history ?

"The gospels are true" because they mention (of course contradicting each other) that the 3 woman were visiting the cruzification and found the empty tomb ?? The 3 woman where Jesus mother Mary, Sister Salome and wife Mary Magdalene
The Pauline teaching is trying to suppress the entire Jesus family clan the true history and put himself into the spotlight, even Saul/Paul never met Jesus in person and was nearly killed from the apostles for all his lies and distortions.

I already put a couple of postings here so I copy a shorter one here and link the longer one>

Comment #148818 by Roland_F on March 24, 2008
But what can someone expect from a religion which very foundations are based on Pauline distortions and lies a regurgitated 2000BC Horus myth. By the way Saul/Paul was called from the real apostles (lead from Jesus brother James) in the dead sea scrolls Habakkuk commentaries only the liar for all his invented miracles attributed to Jesus, and the real Jesus the Nazarene can hardly be found in the NT (only in the Gospel source 'Q' version) .
And after the 325AD council of Nicaea nearly all records about the Jesus family and his real life were eradicated like from an Orwellian 'ministry of truth', even a never before mentioned Jesus was added then (clumsily) to Josephus history files, as was the Horus = Jesus resurrection myth added to the original Gospel from Mark (which ended with an empty tomb not a resurrected Jesus walking around Jerusalem).

So lying for Jesus has a 2000 year long tradition.

And some longer posting about this here as link:
http://www.richarddawkins.net/articleComments,1966,The-Pagan-Christ,CBC-Tom-Harpur,page7#138697

And where do you think you find the proper biological history of archaeopteryx explained in the bible ?

232. Fleabytes

Comment #153745 by Roland_F on April 2, 2008 at 1:30 am

7405. Comment #153730 by clearthinker

What is society? Look up Wiki !
enough said...

What is this a quiz? Or are you using again an self imposed IQ limit of 75 because otherwise your faith would be challenged?
Straight below my post quoted here, I already showed what a humanitarian society could look like rather than you sin and evil obsessed religious misery cult society you are dreaming off.

Not an answer - just a wish list. Can you tell us what this 'golden rule of the animal kingdom is' (the real one - not the Disney/Wiki one.

This Golden rule was discussed here so many times and you know very well what it is.
So why do I have to repeat myself and other posters here all over again. Some theist even re-discovered it in the Bible and claimed the Golden Rule to be invented from Jesus.
Reciprocal altruism can be found all over the animal kingdom: don't do to others what you don't want them, do unto yourself. And this was also investigated so many times in game theory. So this is a very good answer and not a whish list. just inventing Santa Claus, Tooth fairy, Yahweh are wish lists. So enough repetition of the Golden Rule, just as you allegedly don't remember it any more (spinning and lying again ?quot; really sad !).

Is freedom an absolute?

What is this ; a red herring question ? Your personal freedom is ending there where the freedom of others is seriously jeopardized. (and please abstain from throwing another red herring here questioning 'seriously' !)

Can you tell us where International human rights declarations come from (and which ones should be accepted)?

And the UN Human Right Charta is not a biblical invention, just in case you haven't recognized that there are other religions and secular states in the UN and on this planet and not only Christian nations ! And the basic rights are then completely accepted, no cherry picking like from the Bible. ( I also doubt you don't know that, but are distorting again !)

And can you tell us what the laws are derived from in a 'free secular country'?

The US constitution and Bill of right is not Bible influenced as many religious fundamentalist want now to distort in history files (house bill 888 as discussed here some weeks back). All the human right from the UN so far (until this week religious fundamentalist blow it up) were part of constitutions and bill of rights in most UN member states and followed up in most secular and free states.

So what is your alternative ?quot; forget all Charta's, Bill of Rights etc.. and take only the Bible ?
But the Bible is full of promoting genocide, murder and slavery all over, including 'just so stories' , invented fairy tails and outright lies of stories which never happened including the Horus = Jesus virgin birth and resurrection after 3 days myth from 2000BC Egypt. This was pointed out here so many times over and over again. And as the entire theist showing up here and praising the Bible as one and only source of all moral, and then they cherry picking what rules and violent orders they ignore and which rules they choose as valid. And all this cherry picking what is morally exactable and what not; must therefore be a moral basis coming from outside the Bible and not from the self contradicting Bible itself.

233. Fleabytes

Comment #153734 by Roland_F on April 2, 2008 at 12:41 am

7402. Comment #153727 by clearthinker

I'm disappointed that clearthinker is still afforded the respect of responses from us. I'm convinced that, like a lot of theists, his aim is simply to win out attention and therefore engage us in his vacuous games.

Indeed. But why then post this at all. Looks like it got under the radar. And guess what - I have no desire to have your attention. Can you think of a possible reason why I would want it? Do you really think my life is that empty?!

As you come back all the time after several promises to quit or take a break you are coming back like an addict to this "so evil forum" here.
It's like the door knocking from Jehovah's witnesses or Mormons. So your life must be empty then to follow your own conclusion.

And can't stop lying, distorting, spinning and misquoting, as pointed out so many times here.

234. Fleabytes

Comment #153722 by Roland_F on April 2, 2008 at 12:09 am

7398. Comment #153714 by clearthinker

"Paula: I have no doubt that if atheist philosophy gets an ever-increasing grip on Europe or the USA then we are really heading for another Dark Age."
Robertson : The statement just does not fit with her atheist beliefs and so it must de facto be false.

No Mr. Spin doctor WeaFlea/Clerthinker/Robertson : The dark ages resulting in millions of innocent tortured and killed humans during Inquisition are not based on atheism. Living in fear and suppression from the ruling joint venture of cleptocracy and clerics using religion as 'opium to suppress peasants' are a fact for millennia. And religious fundamentalists (US Bible Belt Taliban, or Muslim Salafi's & Wahabi's ) are wishing back the bad old times now.
So it is very distorting again from you to make the weird accusation that atheism would lead to dark ages which is a purely 'Christian achievement'.

"Paula: someone who has been immersed in Bible teachings all their life who would ever think that evil is the biggest question anyway."
Robertson: Why? Can you think of a bigger question?

As evil is some Christian imagination, there are indeed many things on this planet and universe to think about, rather than the narrow minded focus on an self invented evil.

Paula: "Why would I or anyone else swap the joy and adventure of such a life for a Calvinist obsession with evil that sees every human as vile? "
Robertson : How can you enquire when you have already pre-determined the answer? What is society? What about people you don't love? What is achievement? Who determines what is right and wrong?

Enquire about what = evil ?

What is society? Look up Wiki !
What about a happy society enjoying the one and only life we have, instead enduring endless fear and misery from a sin obsessed cult and wait (for an never coming) afterlife of the (not existing) soul.

What is achievement?
What about : Living a happy fulfilled life, raising healthy children and die without fear from brimstone and endless hell ?

Who determines what is right and wrong?
The golden rule of the animal kingdom (which includes homo sapiens), International human rights declarations (as long they are not destroyed from religious fundamentalist), the constitution and derived laws of a free secular country = and NOT some imagined sky fairy and a 2500 year old scribbling from desert tribes hailing genocide, murder and slavery as alleged moral high ground.

It must be really a miserable existence living under permanent fear of a sin and evil obsessed misery cult.

235. Vote on freedom of expression marks the end of Universal Human Rights

Comment #152928 by Roland_F on March 31, 2008 at 6:03 pm

We are lucky that this UN "human rights" body with this majority has not declared Shariah Law as global foundation of human rights.
Which the "West" would not have objected either.

236. Vote on freedom of expression marks the end of Universal Human Rights

Comment #152924 by Roland_F on March 31, 2008 at 5:55 pm

This was already clear in 2006 when the "new human rights body" of the UN was formed and all the totalitarian states became members. The outnumbered "West" was just participating in the hope they can still uphold some basic human rights issue.
But I doubt that the democracies who abstained from a 'No' vote will just quit this sham body and open an alternative Human Right organization.
As Oil junkie, you can't upset the Arab League and the "West" depends on China for cheap (slave)labor produced inferior scrap products to fill our supermarket stores.

237. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #151064 by Roland_F on March 28, 2008 at 5:16 am

448. Comment #151052 by Bonzai

I just read some of the posts by craigyk. Maybe I am not reading carefully enough but I really don't find him to be that unreasonable

I get the impression more of an agnostic possibly with deist tendency not a real atheists,
Like the statement "maybe God is moving the planets around the sun we can't disprove it". On this level I can have a proper discussion based on facts, where is the measurable force God is using to do influence it.

The other topic about religious influence is more a political discussion: should atheist shying away from any discussion about the *why* and leave the field complete to the theists relying on their desert tribe scribbles on sheepskin, or do we modern humans have much better arguments and insights now in the 21st century then the desert nomads 600 BC about the *why* ?!

And my opinion is not to remain behind the NOMA line which IDiots permanently breaking anyway, but even start disproving their allegedly 'non disprovable' sky fairy on theist own turf.

About the ridiculous claim of theist that only themselves are holding the solely high ground of morality I think I am completely on the same line like craigyk and think these distorting lying hypocrites of faith-heads should simply shut up and not be allowed to talk on any of these public discussions simply because of their believe into their desert tribe fairy tales.

238. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #151051 by Roland_F on March 28, 2008 at 4:39 am

444. Comment #151039 by Steve Zara

There can be, just as long as certain forces are confined to 3D. There was a recent article about the possibility of such additional dimensions:

Hi Steve ,
I have read the article here in RD net before : there is no mentioning of an additionally macro dimension (only the 7 micro dimension of string theory).
But I know this Brane universe theory anyway (from Brian Green's books), so the additionally dimension is more 1/ 10**18 e.g. an electrons size, far bigger than the string theory Plank's length, but not really the entire universe expansion of the omnipresent God what craigyk (the agnostic not atheist ) was thinking about.

239. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #151007 by Roland_F on March 28, 2008 at 2:23 am

434. Comment #150985 by craigyk

Not necessarily, unless you think higher dimensions must always project down into fewer ones. A "flatlander" whose senses are confined to 2 dimensions could be living on the surface of a 3D balloon and never be aware of a discrete object inside the balloon

Again this 4D or 5D God is NOT my idea but taken from Wooter which came to my mind reading your quote that God is moving the sun around the earth (or vice versa) and we can't disprove it.

Even if this 4D God is not my weird idea, let's make the analogy with flatlanders which also came to my mind : a ball in flatland moving up and down would start as a dot (south pole) become a bigger and bigger circle and then after the 'equator' is reached smaller again until the dot 'north pole' is reached.
E.g. a 3D object is fully visible inside 2D flatland. And a 3D object could lift flatlanders up over some 2D obstacles (like a line on the floor) via dimension 3. But again these 3D object would be visible and extracting physically force in 2D flatland world.
Or following your example flatlanders standing on the surface of a balloon â€" you would still stand on and feel the 2D surface and feel the movement in case the balloon is expanding for example.
But anyway there can't be 4D macro space dimensions otherwise the 'Goldilocks' fine tuning would not be possible. So on the one site theists are claiming the fine-tuning of the universe (only possible in 3D) as design of God, on the other hand they (or at least guys like Clearmind/Wooter) are claiming divine intervention via 4D or 5D space.

"If god is all-powerful can he make a rock so big he can't lift it?" Seriously, how does anyone ever squeak out of that one? It makes me giggle.

This is from MPHIL not from me, but indeed when your possible Deist God residing outside space and time created an universe (including space and time) he can't be inside these universe. If the universe is expanding (and even accelerating expanding) the sphere of influence limited by the speed of light is getting smaller all the time (like the visible content of the universe), so your Deist (outside) creator can't control the following development any more from inside. And even an insight the universe God based on space and time can not control the entire creation any more.
So based on philosophical reasoning, the 'non disprovable' existence of God can be at least limited in his possible omnipotence, omnipresence etc. So atheist don't have to pull back scared to the NOMA line and concentrate only on the scientific explanation of nature and leave all the *why* to theists, but can also disprove theological "proof" of God's existence ala Thomas Aquinas.

240. Fossil find could be Europe's first humans

Comment #150975 by Roland_F on March 27, 2008 at 9:14 pm

12. Comment #150695 by DavidSJA

Well, young Earth creationists with whom I mixed when I was I green behind the ears theorized that the speed of light is not a constant, and that its change over time has led to a corresponding change in radioactive decay rates, thus rendering dates from carbon-14 testing inaccurate; it's accurate fro the recent past, but the further back you go the greater the degree of inaccuracy (eg. something that is 8 Ky old can appear to be many My/Gy). The closer to the point of creation, the closer towards infinity the degree of inaccuracy.

This is the usual creationist crap : from astronomy we know that the speed of light is constant over billion of years, beside some possibly very small variations in the very early universe where the fine structure constants might have been slightly different.
However the cretinist claim that the speed of light is part of these 'Goldilocks' fine tuned constants of nature to proof God did the fine-tuning, on the other hand they claim the speed of light is massively changing to have the 4004 BC creation myth explained = all self contradicting B.S.
There were some calculations that the amount of radioactive decay when following the speed YEC are claiming for 6000 years of age, the earth would be 65,000 degrees Celsius hot.
Beside the C14, there are several other radioactive dating methods, there are tree rings which can be interpreted like fingerprints to count down gap free time for thousand of years ; also cross-verifying C14 timing, there are ice drilling in Antarctica where the yearly layers can be counted down for 2 million years; also cross checking radioactive dating, there are astronomical measurements possible like the slowing down of earth rotation (currently 24h some millennia back 25h a day etc…). In short everything is cross validated over and over gain: no chance for cretinist BS.

241. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #150961 by Roland_F on March 27, 2008 at 8:06 pm

387. Comment #150751 by craigyk

Fourth and fifth dimensions? I won't pretend to know how to *prove* the existence of more than three spatial dimensions or know what forces exist there.

This 4th or 5th dimension and 'invisible string' was actually a quote from Clearmind/Wooter as explanation how God is moving the planet's around the sun every morning. Even if there were more dimensions a 5D God would still be visible in our 3D world then.

religion is that it provides both the *why* and the *how* of things.

The current main religions (Abrahamic religions, Hinduism ) on this planet are all relying on some old fairy tales, 'just so stories' and all kind of invented crap. Let's focus on the Christian God YHWH : a God who created humans to "be like us" (God's), who is forging a covenant with Noah and Abraham, who is walking as human person beside Abraham and so on and so on. Sorry but this is as far from an explanation of a *why* as it can get. And asking a Christian theologian about the *why* of our fundamental constants of nature or the time before the big bang, about multiverses etc. what on earth can a theologian answer based on his old text scribbled from primitive desert nomads on sheep skin 2500 years ago ??? I can ask these *why* question the toilet cleaning staff and don't get a proper answer as well. This is my point: that after theists could not stop the scientific revolution of Copernicus, Kepler, Galilee and Bruno any more; they tried to enhance their YHWH from their sheepskin scribbling to be a universal God.

if a physicist chose to believe that God IS space-time? That might be a belief in God that I could actually subscribe too

This remind me at a book from my favorite German author Hoimar von Ditfurth whose writing about cosmology and evolution influenced me in the 1970s to become atheists. In 1981 he wrote a book "we are not only from this world" (Wir sind nicht nur von dieser Welt) where he tried to convince theist to become more deist who believe that the entire ongoing cosmological evolution is God. I think you are heading a little into this direction.

That the God who created the universe (the big bang as a divine fart) must be out of space and time and can not be part of these universe himself, that he is also limited to the boundaries of information processing (speed of light) etc.. in short he can't be omnipotent, omnipresent was discussed here before:

http://www.richarddawkins.net/articleComments,2285,Fleabytes,Paula-Kirby,page50#136661
http://www.richarddawkins.net/articleComments,2285,Fleabytes,Paula-Kirby,page62#138081

So it's mutual exclusive that the Biblical God created the universe from outside space and time and is here inside the universe, created animals and humans and is still near planet earth to listen to prayers and provide miracles.

Just put the photo of the galaxy containing 200 billion stars on your PC screen, hide a single pixel and you eliminate hundred of stars at the outskirt or thousand of stars near the center. And then imagine billions of PC screens all over the earth, space station, all over the moon etc. and all PC's are showing a galaxy on the screen: so who can seriously think that God who created all these stars is coming exactly to the single missing pixel region of the milky way, to the sun and planet earth, 14 billion years after big bang and walks the earth together with Noah, Abraham, have Jonas transported in the stomach of a whale, creates his son with virgin Mary and so on ?? And this stories should explain the *why* ??
These theist stories are as far away from the universe creating deist you are propagating as possibility, as the big bang is back in time.

242. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #150552 by Roland_F on March 27, 2008 at 5:22 am

354. Comment #150173 by craigyk

We (scientists) have……

So you claim to be a scientist

After all, the difference between an explanation and a testable/falsifiable explanation is rather subtle. That god created life in all its forms IS a plausible explanation

But then you reject the main scientific principle of testable/falsifiable claims.

But refusing to even concede that ID is a plausible explanation only serves to obstruct the discussion
I would answer that, by definition, ID can't be disproved

Sorry but ID is just another name for creationism, their main book for teaching in schools just replaced the words created by designed (see Dover trial), ID is financed from religious organizations, and some internal correspondence showed that their only message is 'to spread Gods word, e.g. the Genesis story of the first 2 pages of the Bible. Both versions are self contradicting in the sequence of events : animals after or before humans, light before stars are created, day and night before planet earth is spinning etc. And this can't be disporoved and is a valid explanation for you ??

one of the great things about religion is that it provides both the *why* and the *how* of things.

Do they ?? The clumsy self contradicting Genesis versions, fairy tails, 'just so stories' made up for primitive desert nomads are providing a why and how for you ?

we still haven't (and never will) disprove that God does not in fact move the Sun across the sky (or the Earth around the sun, etc.). This belief is still possible even with the knowledge of gravity you know, separated hows and whys). It is a poetic abstraction that I must admit I am partial too, and an example of the duality I think we should really be militant about promoting (instead of Atheism).

And how does God move the earth around the sun, with invisible strings in the fourth and fifth dimension ?? To extract a force God has to be physically present and we would be able to measure and recognize the force.
So 'WE' should be militantly promoting a dualism : science is explaining how, and religion is explaining why God is moving the sun around the earth ?!?
Rotation is always happening when there is a force to the center whether it's hot air moving up at the center of a Hurricane or water moving down when you empty a water bowl ; always resulting in a spinning movement no God needed to explain *why* !

Sorry all this sound to me not like an atheist scientist promoting NOMA, but more like Clearmind/Wooter reasoning in proper English.

243. Expelled Overview

Comment #149548 by Roland_F on March 25, 2008 at 10:27 pm

57. Comment #149515 by Styrer : You seem as if you have already given up.

I have given up for example to rational argue with guys like Wooter as they don't understand and don't want to understand anything.
I have not given up to show the utter nonsense of creationists preaching or pointing out self contradicting rubbish in the Bible.
However convincing moderate faith-heads and fence sitters about ID.iotism & Cretinist doctrine is not by showing this poorly made trash-film EXPELLED but some other approach like showing an easy to understand film which shows all the nonsense they are spreading.

For example like this from the series "why we laugh about creationists", which shows how one of the main IDiots (Kent Hovind) have no clue about topics he allegedly hold academic titles, shows his 'university' to be a barrack and shows all crap he is talking as wrong:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw80oduQckM&feature=related

244. Expelled Overview

Comment #149507 by Roland_F on March 25, 2008 at 7:18 pm

33. Comment #149479 by Styrer-:
I don't give two hoots if this 'film' makes an absolute fortune for its creators. I would gladly pay to see it in all its verminous duplicity, in fact, and pay for friends to join me. But I do give very many more hoots about permitting as global and public a crushing and decimation of creationist/ID irrationality as possible, which will ensue following this - I would argue - welcome crystallization of ID bullshit.

Unfortunately the majority of US citizen believe the creationist B.S. and more than 50% of the entire US population are even YEC, believing in a 6000 year old earth and universe according to the literal interpretation of the Bible.
So with this audience in mind making a political statement of fair treatment for the alternative "scientific theory of ID" and spread it to a wide audience will not expose the utter nonsense of IDiotism content but will increase the pressure on politicians to allow teaching the first 2 pages of the Bible as alternative to Evolution as 50/50 share in Biology.

The intended audiences are not persons like Styrer the target audience are all the Clearmind/Wooters with IQ of 75 or Cleathinker/Robertson types who are only using maximal 75 out of the higher available IQ when it contradicts their faith.

For f** sake, people - see it for yourselves before you endorse another viewer's opinion

That would mean I also had to read a dozen Flea-books to see their nonsense, for which I don't like to waste time (still some more interesting books in my reading backlog) and money for paying BS.

245. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #149150 by Roland_F on March 25, 2008 at 7:30 am

253. Comment #149144 by NormanDoering on March 25, 2008 at 7:20 am
clearthinker wrote:
"...it has to be a very distorted and deformed kind of Christianity,..."


So, if your Christianity isn't distorted or deformed you should be able to drink a bottle of hydrochloric acid.

No Robertson should live up to the covenant with God like Abraham and offer his son to God YHWH ( maybe on the kitchen table ) and only if there is just a goat coming along in his kitchen as replacement he can exchange the offerings.

246. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #149142 by Roland_F on March 25, 2008 at 7:12 am

206. Comment #149060 by clearthinker

There are official sources like 'Mein Kampf' and Hitler's speeches on radio or film and there is this questionable 'table talk' document. So the difference is that the distorting theist propaganda is only using the questionable source to link Hitler's evil actions to atheism and Darwinism, whereas Hitler's religious and even creationist mindset can be found in all sources.

What (as usual) you are not commenting is the main point beside whatever these insane Austrian really thought: that both main churches in Germany and the Vatican supported Hitler, as the Spanish church did for Franco and the Italian church for Mussolini.

And despite these overwhelming religious motives of these dictators, the theist spin doctors trying to link 'their' bad guys to the other site e.g. lying for Jesus.

These distortions of Darwinism can go very far even blaming Darwinism for total anti-Darwinian acts like killing your own genetic relatives: In an article posted some weeks ago in the German newspaper 'Der Spiegel' about the interview with 'Duch' (Kaing Guek Eav) commander of a death and torture camp of the Khmer Rouge.

When the commander Duch had to kill his own family members it was stated: The bloody Brutal Darwinism hasn't even stopped from his own family. [Doch der blutige Brutaldarwinismus machte im Kambodscha der Roten Khmer vor Familien nicht halt].

Some writers are just using Darwinism as collection terms for everything bad and evil, without even understanding the basic principle of it.

And as the pinnacle of these story : the commander Duch responsible for the torturing to death of 15,000 to 17,000 people finally found then Christianity as the best fitting religion for this kind of mindset an converted !

247. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #148818 by Roland_F on March 24, 2008 at 2:12 am

43. Comment #148713 by clearthinker

Could you please tell us what Mark Mathis has to do with Jesus? How do you know his motivation for lying was 'for Jesus'? Is this not just another cheap shot in a rather silly 'culture' war?

A very strange question from someone who should be very well informed himself and is as WeaFla / Clearthinker / Robertson himself a master of spinning and distortion. Quote mining again?

The only message and intention of ID/Creationism is the spreading of the Christian faith, no scientific discussion about very few selected areas of "irreducible" complex bacteria flagellum, human eye etc.
So theist did it again: distortions, spin doctoring, luring someone into interviews under a false pretence and spreading outright lies ; of course in their name of their Christian faith.

And again the Expelled film is blaming evil actions of Adolph Hitler wrongly to atheism, it's really disgusting especially as Hitler was enjoying the full support of both German mainstream churches, including the blessing of the Vatican. All his official writings and speeches talk about the Holocaust as fulfillment of Gods will, the only source of alleged atheism as reason is some dubious third hand 'table talk' document which is even considered to be a likely forgery similar like in the 1980s the fake 'Tagebucher' ( personal diary).

So as discussed on the Fleabites tread here, theist think in 'their fight' against "atheist = antichrist" every lie and distortion is allowed in the name of Jesus.

But what can someone expect from a religion which very foundations are based on Pauline distortions and lies a regurgitated 2000BC Horus myth. By the way Saul/Paul was called from the real apostles (lead from Jesus brother James) in the dead sea scrolls Habakkuk commentaries only the liar for all his invented miracles attributed to Jesus, and the real Jesus the Nazarene can hardly be found in the NT (only in the Gospel source 'Q' version) .
And after the 325AD council of Nicaea nearly all records about the Jesus family and his real life were eradicated like from an Orwellian 'ministry of truth', even a never before mentioned Jesus was added then (clumsily) to Josephus history files, as was the Horus = Jesus resurrection myth added to the original Gospel from Mark (which ended with an empty tomb not a resurrected Jesus walking around Jerusalem).

So lying for Jesus has 2000 year long tradition.

248. Two More Fleas

Comment #144903 by Roland_F on March 17, 2008 at 2:54 am

334. Comment #144891 by epeeist : Now 84 per cent of world population in any way they believe a creator

The 16% atheist and 84% Yahweh believers are a statistics from the USA according to the last PEW study published here last week. As the USA accounts for less than 5% of world inhabitants the global number is smaller.
A billion Hindus another huge number of Buddhist, Taoist, Confucius's are not believing in the Biblical genesis, so the God of the desert religions account for 50% of world population. And many Christians (including the late pope) have no problem with Evolution and don't take Genesis literally.

Don't let you self getting confused from Wooterism.

249. Two More Fleas

Comment #144887 by Roland_F on March 17, 2008 at 1:12 am

332. Comment #144840 by GordonYKWong
The issue I see here is that many poster here are using very clever arguments against him, but judging from Clearmind's reply, he doesn't seem to be grasping any of those arguments, fully or partially. (No offense, Clearmind, those are just my opinions)

I am just curious to see what level of sophistication should I be operating at when I engage with him.

Sounds weird... yeah I know...

In January Wooter was admitting himself that he has the mindset and 'reason sieve' of an elementary school kid, where Evolution is just not fitting through.

He/she/it thinks that
1) The hyper creative God creates every snowflake differently,
2) That God is spinning planets and rotate them every morning around the sun,
3) The sun is made out of Oil
4) That God created all the plants and animals to only serve humans
5) That at the end of times God will move selected humans to another planet and all other life on earth (animals and plants) will perish
6) That there is a Birmingham palace as evidence of design
7) That the Mona Lisa was painted from Picasso (and the painting is speaking to Wooter in its stories written here in 'Salamander's tale')

My reply to (5) from where this specific scenario which is not part of any common religious teaching (Catholic, J.W., Mormon)is coming from, I got the reply that all religions have these scenario including Buddhism (!!!) and I am just uneducated not to know God that is moving humans to another planet and animals will die here !

In January my simple explanation attempt (made for Wooter's elementary school class) why humans and animals can move around 'from alone by muscle power' without God to have invisible strings to move them around, I was using the word Mitochondria as small power plant of the muscle cells. Wooter replied with a copy from a creationist website that Mitochondria are too complicated so it must be designed. Even if the food, God provided handpicked to Wooter's refrigerator and even if Mitochondria would be designed, still muscle cells can move the body around without invisible strings hold from God.

So the only scientific explanation understandable is 'God did it'.

250. I don't believe in atheists

Comment #144073 by Roland_F on March 15, 2008 at 3:01 am

to inflict maximum damage you go for the infrastructure targets. Take out power stations, sewage treatment plants, computer centres and the like.

Or when hitting the churches the Christians loose all there moral guidance and divine help, which will then inflict the ultimate damage of self-destruction ??