201. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #248971 by Nairb on September 17, 2008 at 9:41 am

Fanusi
It has nothing to do with burning cars.
Do you think it was allah that pushed them to burn cars? Or that they put it down to Allah?

Those guys were having a run in with the police, who have been in their face for years in their ghettoes.

What statistic? You mean on the Religous practice?

Here it is , its french , but you can read the graphic easily on page 2
http://www.ined.fr/fichier/t_publication/1366/publi_pdf1_447.pdf

The sample is 10000 people.

202. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #248969 by Nairb on September 17, 2008 at 9:32 am

Nairb

I dont put faith in anything. Neither muslims nor govt nor you nor me.
But Your view is too black and white for me.
And things are never as black and white as that.

That doesnt mean I think there may be somethiung to what you say. I can read between lines too.

Naive ,is not one of my qualities.
However I think you are jumping a bit far.

Give me a reason to think so and I might change my mind. But a potential scenario wont change my mind.

203. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #248967 by Nairb on September 17, 2008 at 9:15 am

Al
I think you are extrapolating your own experience. Do PM me your experience.
All of the muslims I know are through work.
In France 90-95% come from the Maghreb or Turkey. They donjt have much of a beef with Israel.
Tunisia is almost like Portugal. Algeria has just seen off a civil war and Morocco is pretty modern, has relations with Israel and recognises its jewish community as a state religion.

In France Muslims dont go to the Mosque
Males
65% never
10% once per year
25% 2 or more

Females
80% Never
10% Once per year
10% 2 or more per year

204. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #248956 by Nairb on September 17, 2008 at 8:57 am

Al
I dont think its the essence of your point but-

In 20 years the muslim population wont be 20%. It will probably be around 10% to 12% assuming no change to immigration. Thats assuming it is 8% now.

205. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #248954 by Nairb on September 17, 2008 at 8:51 am

Al

Also muslims here admire her as good modern image of themselves.
Dont forget that the Algerian civil war affected the Notrth African population hard, especially those that came as refugees or had relatives, friends tell them stories. Noone wants to see that.

They dont really admire that.

I think the middle east to Pakistan is more affected by that then west africa which was strongly influenced by Europe anyway.

206. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #248951 by Nairb on September 17, 2008 at 8:41 am

Al
Sure, I can imagine scenarios.
But Al, I take the train every morning and evening with more then 50% muslims. In the winter it is dark going into and out of stations. There is Nothing. Usually when you talk to them there a lot less sullen then us french.

I think you need to come to place like that to get a feel for this. Your vision I am afraid is a bit over influenced and synthetic from newspaper sensation reports.

There is no muslim party, no bits of parties advocating muslim rights.

There is fery few mosques compared to the population. The council of Muslims had to be set up for the government and the different splinter muslim groups pushed together.

French muslims have views very similar to average french. There is PEW study on it.

I know a lot of muslims, they are not a problem.

In France people are much more militant about secular state.
There is 1 school in all France that has Muslim teachers and it has to abide by the state curriculum.

PS The muslims in the government are very secular. Look up Rachida Dati the justice minister, she is pregnant and noone asks who is the father. Everyone knows she is not married. In Georgia they would probably as her to resign!

207. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #248942 by Nairb on September 17, 2008 at 8:11 am

Sorry for bringing your Doom of Civilisation Theory crashing to earth.

I didnt realize that would annoy you!




So
1) The supposed generation time effect is in the model because it is a more sophisticated model based not on generations but on yearly birthrates.
The generations I mentioned were to Illustrate the mechanism since you asked for an Explaination

2)It just makes him look like Pompous Plonker or malevolent lier. Not exactly a recommendation to learn anything from him. Certainly not Islam given he seems to be having visons of the end of the world about it.

3) See point 1

208. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #248934 by Nairb on September 17, 2008 at 7:45 am

Fanusi
You are trying to save Hugh by adding in new complexities in the model?

Go right ahead. It doesnt change the bottom line.

Remember the projections by the EU based on current fertilities projected into the future. 16 % 19% muslims in 2050 depending on immigration.

Ah , perhaps you forgot.

oh, oh, I hope Hugh Fitzgerald isnt going to do an expose on the Demographers of the EU
oh, oh!

209. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #248926 by Nairb on September 17, 2008 at 7:09 am

"there seems to be reasonable causes for his being wrong"

Really? But I think anyone who is wrong would claim the same.?

That is why when we do things we CHECK what we do.
When we decide to write a paper on a foreign countries demographics we..... maybe ....get some demographic information?

Let me think, where would one get demographic information.......hard one.....an idea ......The demographics Statistics institute?


I mean I am not an authority on anything. I dont publish ....
But I thought of that quite quick.

Seems like Hugh has some difficulties with some basic data collection actions, no?


Then after coming to his conclusions did he have them corroborated with a demographer?
A statistician?
Or a Maths student?
How about a sixth grader?


When he gave his article to JihadWatch who checked the basic point of his article?

I mean they wouldnt risk looking completely ridiculous in front of millions of internet readers would they?

210. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #248912 by Nairb on September 17, 2008 at 6:36 am

Seems like Hugh Fitzgerald is a bit of a liability to his cause.

Being spectacularly dumb in Math is not really consistant with the sharphooting "I am saving Civilisation" image, is it?

I think he is attracting the wrong attention.

If people start to critically think and anlyse what he says who knows what they might understand.

Here's a suggestion : get him a oneway to the KSA.

211. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #248905 by Nairb on September 17, 2008 at 6:14 am

Fanusi

So just repeating the argument for you.
Lets go with 8% as an upper bound for Muslims just to be nice.

So if all Muslims have twice as many kids (TFR = 3,6)that would make 16% of kids muslim. (Muslim TFR is not so high but lets go with that for the example). Your friend Hugh Fitzgerald wrote an article saying 33% of kids were muslims. 16% and 33% are quite different I am afraid.
So even bending over backwards he is obviously totally wrong using simple math..

Then without stopping he assumed this would continue for 2 generations. In reality TFRs are converging fast so a prudent TFR of immigrants for the next generation would probably only 20% to 30% more then french TFR. See my posting above on this page for Algeria (TFR same as France) and Morocco(TFR 35% more). Those are TFRs for today btw not projections.


So at a minimum he is 100% wrong on his basic assumption. After that his argument goes just downhill. Its total garbage. Its just ridiculous to assume TFRS will remain stable when all over the world this has not been the case for decades.

So Hugh Fitzgerald(Jihadwatch) writes confidently and pompously on things he knows nothing of while pretending to do an "Expose" on the "conspiracy". And he doesnt even bother to check the basic math.


I would rather you defend him then me. Good luck!

212. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #248835 by Nairb on September 17, 2008 at 3:45 am

Fanusi

Credible People who publish in Credible Journals do not make demographic projections and propose government conspiracy theories in foreign countries based on a Google Search.

Regarding generations you are mashing up two different concepts and waffling. If you took the time to understand population models that would be clear to you.

But then you are not really concerned about population models are you? Despite their supposed "horrendous projections on a continental scale".
You seem much more concerned about Hugh Fitzgeralds (Jihadwatch)"reputation".

How interesting.

213. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #248818 by Nairb on September 17, 2008 at 2:52 am

Fanusi

Credible serious people do not write melodramatic articles on the internet to illustrate a point which is blatantly false.

If Jihadwatch do not do a minimum of checking of the content of these articles then for me they are not credible either.

If Hugh Fitzgerald wishes to pretend to be a demographer he should at least spend a bit more time checking his figures and spend less time in melodramatic fervour.

Perhaps it is a reflection on his readers that he made no effort to crosscheck his figures.

214. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #248787 by Nairb on September 17, 2008 at 12:40 am

Fanusi,

Hugh Fitzgerald(JihadWatch) told a melodramatic syrupy story that appeals to emotions.
Douce France http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/008928.php
The punchline was to make the statement : Muslims will become a majority in France in 2 generations. As I have shown : this is completely ridiculous to anyone who takes a moment to look at it.

When Einstein or other scientists discover a new theory or Fact, they do not write syrupy emotional stories to explain their theory.
Why?
Because the facts and logic of the argument speak for themselves.
Its is only when the facts are against you that people like Hugh Fitzgerald write melodramatic articles like Douce France.

So Hugh Fitzgerald of Jihadwatch is not a Freethinker trying to establish facts.
He is a political propagandist.

He is trying to construct a reality that does not exist despite the facts.

Propagandists and how to spot them
As Richard Dawkins says :Mathematicians simplify complexity to be clear, PostModernists hide simple facts behind artsy language to seem clever
Propagandists too.


When Propagandists expose new "amazing" information "missed by real specialists" you know you are onto a Con Artist. Or when they tell long winding emotional stories to establish a position - you can guess they have little or no supporting evidence.
Why tell a story when you dont have evidence? Because you already have a dogmatic point of view and your objective is give a warm feeling to other dogmatists and to convince and manipiulate the unwary.
Naturally this doesnt mean every word they utter is untrue. Its just not reliable until you check it.

Anybody going to Propagandist sites to be "informed" have been warned.

215. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #248578 by Nairb on September 16, 2008 at 1:44 pm

TWP
Ok basically you dont like some types of rude or vagely threatening behaviour. It doesnt seem to me to have anything to do with race.

216. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #248565 by Nairb on September 16, 2008 at 1:19 pm

TWP, AL

I think races dont exist, so I am not sure what a racist actually is other then the traditional political ones who say jews have a worldwide conspiracy or the blacks/asians are somehow inferior.

I have never heard of any proper agreed genetic/biological basis for races.

Seems like the word has no real meaning, so what does it mean for you. Do you have a definition, or a list of races and their differntiating factors?

What do you mean by Cultural racist?

217. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #248559 by Nairb on September 16, 2008 at 12:55 pm

Al
1. 8 to 8,5% is the consensus figure on "potential" muslims. ie from muslim immigtration

2.Their Total Fertility Rate varies according to generation etc but its a bit higher. The difference is getting smaller over time as TFR converge. I would say 20% to 30%. Less then 50%
Note not all immigrants were muslims and christians originally from africa can have high TFR.
3. Yes it will grow but marginally, the projected TFR difference is too small and trending smaller.Look ate TFR's of algerians and moroccans above for example

218. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #248521 by Nairb on September 16, 2008 at 11:28 am

Fanusi,

I am very calm.
Hugh Fitzgerald lead writer in Jihadwatch wrote a long prancing article on "Douce France"
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/008928.php

The theme is
1 France and the french are in a dreamworld of comfort.(10 syrupy paragraphs)
2 But behind the scenes a tidal wave of muslims is going to change society completely (theatrically : cut to muslim majority Magical Mathematics)

I showed his argument is ridiculous and said he is a jerk for writing such an article

Now his prancing article looks funny.

Thats all.

219. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #248484 by Nairb on September 16, 2008 at 10:03 am

Now, the other important estimate is that Muslims in France have a birth-rate three times higher than that of the native french, so that 10% is accounting for three times higher population growth than its absolute numbers. Hence 'one in three babies', etc.

220. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #248116 by Nairb on September 15, 2008 at 3:58 pm

Fanusi, in light of some recent information, where does the one third of Muslim babies come from? Appears to be a number plucked from the air now....
Hope the assignement is going OK :-) If you need any help...

I have scoured the UK press and I can't see anything about this. Surely something like this would be quite a story? Well, will see today and check the letters and opinion pages.

221. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #248114 by Nairb on September 15, 2008 at 3:33 pm

Quetzalcoatl
I dont know where to begin. His calculation is complete garbage.
Yes the Population Increase is 0,68% He imagines it means 68% of birts are due to non muslims.

The guy is clueless.

PS Yes thats right Quetzalcoatl

222. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #248101 by Nairb on September 15, 2008 at 3:11 pm

Quetzalcoatl

Yea,oof exactly. Go read Hugh Fitzgerald. It doesnt take long to realize what a jerk he is.

Anyway, that isn't my question: if one third of babies are Muslim, doesn't that mean, in twenty years, a third of all young people will be Muslim?

223. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #248093 by Nairb on September 15, 2008 at 2:51 pm

Fanusi,

This is where Hugh Fitzgerald the PRIZE PLONKER got his data of 1 in 3 babies in France being muslim.
This guy has no clue. He writes this Syrupy article about how clever he is and he didnt even check his data and then compounds the error by making predictions. What an ASS.

AND you read this guy regularly !!!
Let me just underline the bit where he COMPLETELY MISUNDERSTANDS and draws the most hysterically funny conclusions

PLEASE : Everyone should read this

What is particularly gratifying to French planners is that the bulk of the current population increase - put at 0.68% a year - is caused by home-grown births and only a quarter to immigration. [Wait a minute. 68% is 'home-grown'. What does 'home-grown' mean? Are Muslims citizens 'home grown'? From my math, 100 - 68 = 32% immigrant, or 1 out of every 3 babys or new immigrant is a Mohammed. Now if 5% of the 'home-grown' is Muslim babies, that is additional 3.5% for a total of 35.5%. If 10% of the 'home-grown' is Muslim, that is 6.8%, and the total percentage of babies TODAY who are Muslim in France is 38.8%!

224. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #248072 by Nairb on September 15, 2008 at 1:53 pm

Fanusi

As well as the Koran and Bible - is selective reading an attribute of readers of Prize right wing Plonkers too?

You asked me to back up what I said. I think I did that pretty conclusively.
Given the barn yard size target this DumbAss makes I wont take any credit for that though.

225. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #248054 by Nairb on September 15, 2008 at 1:21 pm

Fanusi

Read what he writes
"France will have a majority Muslim population"

226. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #248043 by Nairb on September 15, 2008 at 1:12 pm

Fanusi,
Christ, I thought it was obvious.

Understand there are 4 or 5 generations in a population.
No population is going to double in 2 generations.
I mean get a piece of paper and draw a picture.

Christ!!!

227. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #248031 by Nairb on September 15, 2008 at 1:00 pm

EDIT: Nairb what, exactly, is wrong with that article? You don't get to just call something 'biased' and dismiss it.

And then you learn what Jacques Chirac -- who now has a Muslim grandchild himself -- and Dominique de Villepin, do not wish you to learn. For if you did, you might be very angry. You discover that 1 out of every 3 babies born in France today is a Muslim baby. And that means, in 20 years, one of every three 20-year-olds in France will be a Muslim twenty-year-old. And that means, twenty years after that, at present rates of reproduction, France will have a majority Muslim population. Where shall we hide the statues from Marly-le-roi? And the Venus de Milo? And what about all those paintings of animated life -- all those portraits in the Louvre, and the Grand Palais, and the Musée Guimet down there in linden-lined Aix, and everywhere else in art-filled artful France, mère des arts, des armes, et des loix -- that are absolutely forbidden according to the immutable strictures of the Qur'an. Should they be sent for safekeeping to those Americans across the seas?

228. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #248024 by Nairb on September 15, 2008 at 12:53 pm

Fanusi

Did you ever actually read the report I gave you. Its all in the back.
The estimate of potential muslims in france goes from 5 to 8% but many of these have married out.
So what?
Do you think they are going to double in a generation or 2?


I dont know why I have to keep repeating this.
Didnt you say you are a scientist?

229. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #248014 by Nairb on September 15, 2008 at 12:42 pm

Al

Sure read Hugh Fitzgeralds stupid article Douce France.

I have read a few others of nhis articles and its mostly biased bullshit.

230. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #248004 by Nairb on September 15, 2008 at 12:30 pm

Mavrik

I agree Jihadwtch is well , I dont want to insult the Daily mail with a compparison...

However you cam on this site saying hello Infidel Pigs...

Are you any better? Then you blame your problems on the US.

Do you think this is a good start to an intro into a site?

231. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #247978 by Nairb on September 15, 2008 at 11:48 am

Al

Are there some islamists following you around?
Havent seen this one before. Its his first post.

232. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #247953 by Nairb on September 15, 2008 at 10:27 am

Al

Ah, thats a typical problem. Any serious christians are inclined to think the same way.

Yes, I am afraid you may be wasting your time with the free speech approach. I would advise dropping it.
Try some other angle.

Maybe asking them if insulting other religions is ok. If not then list the religions from monotheist down to the the most bizarre religion you can think of ( not islam ok :-), maybe hindu or some african tribal religions)

Eventually they will see they need to draw a line somewhere. And this is difficult to do.

233. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #247949 by Nairb on September 15, 2008 at 10:13 am

Yes. I am upset that my friends are forwarding the nonsense now. I fear I will lose all my Muslim friends. I have already lost many.

234. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #247941 by Nairb on September 15, 2008 at 10:01 am

Al

You are fired up!
The UK havent changed any laws.
This is just arbitration.

I hate it too. But its not like the end of civilisation in UK.

235. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #247913 by Nairb on September 15, 2008 at 9:15 am

Whilst there are rules on inheritance, they do not deal with the distribution of assets, except in the case of intestacy.

236. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #247907 by Nairb on September 15, 2008 at 9:06 am

Fanusi

From what I recall, the 16% was definitively on the low side of the estimates by that study you cited, and that it depended on the recovery of European birth rates to the replacement level in one generation, as well as the fall of Muslim birth rates to the replacement level in the same.

That's point one: is that, or is that not, the case?

237. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #247895 by Nairb on September 15, 2008 at 8:48 am

Rachel,
Appreciate your reclarification on British Law not changing.

As I said before, the better question is how to make sure that parties using arbitation (whether under Sharia principles, halacha or whatever) are doing so voluntarily.

Remember, we are not talking about interactions which are already covered by UK law.

238. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #247886 by Nairb on September 15, 2008 at 8:34 am

Fanusi,

On population

116. Breeding for God

Comment #223735 by Nairb on August 3, 2008 at 10:07 am

I think I have shown that Muslim populations are not exploding.

It is growing slowly and the growth is slowing in Europe and elsewhere. Fanusi you yourself have posted evidence in support this.


Comment #223352 by Fanusi Khiyal on August 2, 2008 at 4:39 am
Interestingly though, while discussing this with you, I came across an article in the Asia times that argues that there is a thirty-year window for Islam to achieve its objectives in Europe before it hits the demographic wall itself.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/GH23Aa01.html



Furthermore there is strong evidence of convergence of Fertility rates indicating the middle scenario below. There is recent evidence of reduced immigration indicating the low scenario.


In all scenarios muslims will not have more then 19% of European population in 2050.

A. In the extreme case of continued high immigration and no convergence of Fertility rates the population of muslims in Europe will be 19% in 2050.

B. In the middle case of continued high immigration and convergence of Fertility rates the muslim population is 15% in 2050.

C. In the low case of reduced immigration and convergence of Fertility rates the muslim population is 9% in 2050.

239. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #247872 by Nairb on September 15, 2008 at 8:18 am

Peacebuponme,
Why not? If it is the way two parties want to settle negotiations, it should be up to them.

240. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #247845 by Nairb on September 15, 2008 at 7:23 am

I am personally completely against any religious based arbitration having a legally binding effect.

However it is easy to see that the UK is taking a Realpolitik approach.

It is probably better to have people (eg new immigrants) who never would go the court system go to an religous based arbitration then none at all.

If it is overseen carefully by the real judicial system and not used to discriminate then it could be useful as a temporary measure.

I think there should be a better way. However these arbitration courts have existed for some time for Jews. If you get rid of islamic ones you have to get rid of all of them.

It would be interesting to see what % of people use such arbitration courts.

241. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #247817 by Nairb on September 15, 2008 at 6:28 am

you can put a church, a synagogue, a buddhist, a Hindu, a Sikh temple side by side, and it'll be all hunky-dory, but add a Mosque and you have trouble.

Peacebeuonme
There is plenty of evidence to the contrary. India is a great example

242. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #247793 by Nairb on September 15, 2008 at 5:40 am

you can put a church, a synagogue, a buddhist, a Hindu, a Sikh temple side by side, and it'll be all hunky-dory, but add a Mosque and you have trouble.

243. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #247791 by Nairb on September 15, 2008 at 5:34 am

the Muslim immigration increased drammatically thanks to the Euro-Arab dialogue.

244. Sharia courts operating in Britain

Comment #247783 by Nairb on September 15, 2008 at 5:00 am

And so the transition to Eurabia continues... Whose brilliant idea was it to have mass Muslim immigration in the first place, anyway? Oh, wait, the EU's - go figure.

245. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #247750 by Nairb on September 15, 2008 at 2:23 am

I really dont appreciate poetry. But this australian export is probably the funniest parody of the gloom and doom fanatics

Please do read. Its hilarious.


PS : Welcome back Steve! Seems like the holiday has done you good!

SAID HANRAHAN by John O'Brien

"We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan,
In accents most forlorn,
Outside the church, ere Mass began,
One frosty Sunday morn.

The congregation stood about,
Coat-collars to the ears,
And talked of stock, and crops, and drought,
As it had done for years.

"It's looking crook," said Daniel Croke;
"Bedad, it's cruke, me lad,
For never since the banks went broke
Has seasons been so bad."

"It's dry, all right," said young O'Neil,
With which astute remark
He squatted down upon his heel
And chewed a piece of bark.

And so around the chorus ran
"It's keepin' dry, no doubt."
"We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan,
"Before the year is out."

"The crops are done; ye'll have your work
To save one bag of grain;
From here way out to Back-o'-Bourke
They're singin' out for rain.

"They're singin' out for rain," he said,
"And all the tanks are dry."
The congregation scratched its head,
And gazed around the sky.

"There won't be grass, in any case,
Enough to feed an ass;
There's not a blade on Casey's place
As I came down to Mass."

"If rain don't come this month," said Dan,
And cleared his throat to speak -
"We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan,
"If rain don't come this week."

A heavy silence seemed to steal
On all at this remark;
And each man squatted on his heel,
And chewed a piece of bark.

"We want an inch of rain, we do,"
O'Neil observed at last;
But Croke "maintained" we wanted two
To put the danger past.

"If we don't get three inches, man,
Or four to break this drought,
We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan,
"Before the year is out."

In God's good time down came the rain;
And all the afternoon
On iron roof and window-pane
It drummed a homely tune.

And through the night it pattered still,
And lightsome, gladsome elves
On dripping spout and window-sill
Kept talking to themselves.

It pelted, pelted all day long,
A-singing at its work,
Till every heart took up the song
Way out to Back-o'-Bourke.

And every creek a banker ran,
And dams filled overtop;
"We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan,
"If this rain doesn't stop."

And stop it did, in God's good time;
And spring came in to fold
A mantle o'er the hills sublime
Of green and pink and gold.

And days went by on dancing feet,
With harvest-hopes immense,
And laughing eyes beheld the wheat
Nid-nodding o'er the fence.

And, oh, the smiles on every face,
As happy lad and lass
Through grass knee-deep on Casey's place
Went riding down to Mass.

While round the church in clothes genteel
Discoursed the men of mark,
And each man squatted on his heel,
And chewed his piece of bark.

"There'll be bush-fires for sure, me man,
There will, without a doubt;
We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan,
"Before the year is out."

Around the Boree Log and Other Verses, 1921

246. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #247358 by Nairb on September 14, 2008 at 10:44 am

The idea that society gets more likely to fall to violence as it progresses is disproved by the facts of the society around us.
Lee Harris is just building a cerebral castle in the air.

The idea that we have young men to protect society is nothing new.
Its called the army and police force.

247. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #247281 by Nairb on September 14, 2008 at 8:39 am

it's about the basic paradox at the heart of our civilization: that, the more the spirit of reason and commerce replaces that of war, the greater the incentive for those who are willing to use war and aggression to get what they want, because there is an ever greater chance of their getting away with it.

248. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #247149 by Nairb on September 14, 2008 at 3:25 am

if you don't want to be raped by whatever pacing gang of young thugs takes a fancy - then you need a collection of rough, high-testosterone, honour-bound young people who will go out there and unleash merry hell on the enemies of your tribe, your city, your nation, your civilization. Ones who are willing to shoot the enemy in the head, or immolate entire neighbourhoods in phosphosphorus, or drop nuclear weapons.

249. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #247148 by Nairb on September 14, 2008 at 3:23 am

Fanusi,

The essence of your argument is that we have to be prepared to do unpleasant/reprehensible things to people/nations that are "not nice". Or these people will gain power over us and then we will be in worse shape.
Lets call it the "Do unto others before they do unto you" approach.
Now no one doubts that there are dangerous people/hostile nations out there. The question is how do we guide our policy towards them.

You mention WW1 and the Treaty of Versailles and the French, British, American lack of action leasing upto WW2
After WW1 the "Do unto others" approach was applied by the French insisting on very unfair terms in the Versailles treaty. They wanted to cripple Germany for as long as possible. Ok so it worked for 20 years, then we had an even bigger problem.
Now compare to the approach after WW2. France and Germany worked together to overcome the basis of their rivalry. Result: No war for 60 years in Europe and the basis of a successful regional block overcoming centuries of countless bi-nationalist rivalries.

Note the different approach and the different results.
Your approach "Do unto others" has been tried countless times before.
It doesnt work.

250. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #246931 by Nairb on September 13, 2008 at 2:34 pm

I am not sure where this whore stuff come from. It seems a bit too strong. Anyway whats the problem here.

On Force being necessary.
Titania I would imagine was not saying Force is not necessary as an absolute principal but that "preemptive" force towards people for a religous belief was unacceptable.

It is easy to see why such a principle is unacceptable as it opens the door to any old justification of violence.No society can function long on such a principle.

I remember the hilarious example of one despicable African dictator not long after the start of the Iraq war saying he was arresting the opposing party as he suspected them of being "enemy combattants"

Fanusi
For sure all human vices will continue forever, robbery, murder etc.
However note crime is more and more difficult to accomplish and avoid punishment

War is different. Ithappens between nations that can afford to be belligerent. Bind the nations together economically and it becomes unthinkably difficult (though not impossible).
In perhaps 200 years in the future the existing nations will have formed themselves into far larger interdependant regional groups who will be as likely to go to war as east and west massachussets.