201. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #293764 by Roger Stanyard on November 30, 2008 at 4:28 am

I have a couple of questions for Dianelos Georgoudis:

1. Do you accept Intelligent design as a valid scientific explanation of part or all of the differences between species?

2. How old do you think the earth is?

202. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #293753 by Roger Stanyard on November 30, 2008 at 3:09 am

Cartomancer - there is another issue which I have not thought through. A large percentage of hetrosexual marriages (maybe 5-10%) are between hetrosexual and bi-sexual people. How do they come to terms with sexual orientation and the "taboo" on gay marriages?

It's not a casual point. It means that most of the population, if not all, are decendents of people who are partly gay. Such marriages are thus central to all marriages. Bi-sexual people have always been marrying.

Anyone like to comment?

203. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #293657 by Roger Stanyard on November 29, 2008 at 4:18 pm

EB "why is it so important to gays that they be allowed to marry and not just be able to enter civil unions?"

1. Because it is what they want.

2. lack of gay mariages debauches the intitution of marriage for the rest of us.

I'll dwell on the latter point because I have family connections with South Africa where inter-racial marriage was banned - the ban being supported by the Dutch reformed Church.

It was a ban that destroyed the credibility pf apartheid. During the 1980s a book was published that showed the leading members of the Nationalist movement oand the Bruderbond were mostly, in the distant past, inter-married or inter-bred with balck folk. Very few of the leading members of the apartheid movement were not part black.

The National Party and its supporters went bonkers about it and many looked at taking legal action against the author and its publisher.

They couldn't and, what's worse for them, their credibility was destroyed.

As I keep saying, the homophobia about gay marriages is exactly the same as the the racism against mixed marriages. It undermines the credibility of those opposed to it.

What happens if a member of your fasmily is gay, falls in love and wants to get married. If you say its wrong, it questions the validity of your own marriage. Unless, of course, you think that falling in love has nothing to do with your own marriage.

Every single argument I have ever seen against gay marriage fails utterly to mention falling in love has anything too do with marriage.

Take a look at the rants on Fundies Say the Darndest Things to get the idea.

Strange isn't it that fundies have one of the highest divorce rates in the world.

204. If you don't have religion, where do you find your sense of community?

Comment #293652 by Roger Stanyard on November 29, 2008 at 3:51 pm

Misemii - not so different from the UK. In the town I live in, many of the churches, far from providing a sense of community, are notoriously cliquish. Average membership is probably no more than 60 and they do not like outsiders unless the outsiders agree with them.

It's a "them and us" attitude.

It's worse than that though, because some of them get really nasty with their members when the latter start questioning them.

205. Anti-terror law requires God be acknowledged

Comment #293649 by Roger Stanyard on November 29, 2008 at 3:42 pm

Why should God have ever heard of Kentucky? It's an 18th/19th century invention of the thieving riff raff of Western Europe.

206. Anti-terror law requires God be acknowledged

Comment #293644 by Roger Stanyard on November 29, 2008 at 3:15 pm

Acquilane says "There may be a lot of secular groups out there, but not one of them ever in my life spoke to or made themselves known."

It's a big problem that needs to be addressed. In the UK we have a second atheist organisation, the British Humanist Association, which is largely unknown. Richard Dawkins is involved in it, btw.

207. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #293628 by Roger Stanyard on November 29, 2008 at 12:32 pm

"Yea, you forgot to mention the hammer and sickle."

Come the revolution, DP, and all we will need over the baricades are plain red flags. Well visible in Wall Street.

208. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #293622 by Roger Stanyard on November 29, 2008 at 12:11 pm

Steve asks "So what do you think of the flag of the United States?"

Well the flag of Hawaii still has the Union Jack on it. DP not doubt concludes that they all must be commies there.

209. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #293619 by Roger Stanyard on November 29, 2008 at 12:08 pm

DP - All Europeans and Democrats have their own flag which is clearly just coloured red. ;-)

210. Anti-terror law requires God be acknowledged

Comment #293616 by Roger Stanyard on November 29, 2008 at 12:05 pm

jcape says "According to internet rumors, Barack's mom was an atheist, so there's that."

According to wingnutter on the Internet, Obama is an SOB which proves it. ;-)

211. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #293614 by Roger Stanyard on November 29, 2008 at 12:01 pm

SDavod1985 says "I say we fight for equal rights... then, when that battle is complete, fight for the word if you must. But slowing down the whole process just because a word can't be had... that seems a bit asinine to me...."

Nah, its the same rights for us all that is at issue. The right to marry. The half-way house thing isn't good enough. Until well into the 20th century mixed race marriages were illegal in the USA. I don't think anyone can realitiscally claim that such marriages should be allowed but called something else. It would just utterly debase the marriages involved.

At the end of the day, whilst legislation is extremely important in fighting for civil rights, it is really ultimately a matter for fighting for hearts and minds amongst the population ar large.

Racism isn't gonna disappear because of American civil rights legislation in the 1960s. It will (finally) disappear when everybody accepts black people for what they are, fellow citizens to be treated with the same respect as everyone else.

Seems to me the whole racist - homophobia - anti-feminism thing is just fear. There is nothing to fear but fear itself. None of these groups has ever actually asked for much. All they basically want is their place in the sun alongside everyone else. It's not much to ask and not much to give.

212. Anti-terror law requires God be acknowledged

Comment #293587 by Roger Stanyard on November 29, 2008 at 9:54 am

Aquilicane - Yep I agree but don't forget that secular societies have been around for a very long time. The Leicester Secular Society, which I believe is the world's oldest, was formed in 1854. I does a lot of good work but is pretty tiny.

Even the British National Secular Society is believed only to have 2,000 members (it doesn't disclose the figures).

213. Anti-terror law requires God be acknowledged

Comment #293585 by Roger Stanyard on November 29, 2008 at 9:49 am

MarkG - your probably right - my understanding is that the "international" headquarters of the Imperial Klan(s) of America is in Kentucky - see http://kkkk.net/home.htm

Being no expert whatsoever on the KKK I am not sure what their significance is.

214. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #293577 by Roger Stanyard on November 29, 2008 at 9:18 am

DG - you just made this up for the sake of arguing "What I claim is that for all theists the claim of the resurrection is not an *extraordinary claim*."

You're a fantasist.

215. Anti-terror law requires God be acknowledged

Comment #293561 by Roger Stanyard on November 29, 2008 at 8:31 am

Acquilicane - alas there is no money in atheism. There are shed loads of it to be earned as a fundie though - see Pat Robertson, Word Faith movement, Hillsong, tithing and just about any money making scam you can think off over the last 150 years. It's a get rich quick scheme.

216. Anti-terror law requires God be acknowledged

Comment #293559 by Roger Stanyard on November 29, 2008 at 8:26 am

SRWB - yep, indeed, the KKK is a fine organisation of God-fearing folk.

Strange isn't it that the history of US fundies is largely a history of defending and promoting institionalised racism.

217. Anti-terror law requires God be acknowledged

Comment #293555 by Roger Stanyard on November 29, 2008 at 8:13 am

Er, I forgot. Kentucky is the home of American terrorism. It's where the headquarters of the Ku Klux Klan are based.

And, er, like other white supremecist groups, they are religious fundies.

I also assume the KKK is also cretinist.

218. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #293499 by Roger Stanyard on November 29, 2008 at 6:14 am

Er, DG, a lot of theists don't believe in the ressurection.

Shrug.

219. Anti-terror law requires God be acknowledged

Comment #293497 by Roger Stanyard on November 29, 2008 at 6:07 am

Liberalartist says " drove through Kentucky on my way to Indiana for Thanksgiving and saw a lovely sign that said "Believe in God or the Devil will git ya!" I laughed for 5 miles."

I wonder if the hayseeds realise what "git" means in English English?

Shakes head.

Poe's Law in operation.

220. Anti-terror law requires God be acknowledged

Comment #293489 by Roger Stanyard on November 29, 2008 at 5:16 am

It's obvious why Kentucky needs God on its side against terrorists/atheists/liberals/commies....

It's the world famous home of Answers in Genesis's spendid "museum".

Everyone is thus out to get at at. It's obviously pretty damn dangerous these days being a sanctimonious religious hayseed from the arse-hole of flyover country.

221. £35,000 of taxpayers' cash given to 'atheist bus' group

Comment #292973 by Roger Stanyard on November 28, 2008 at 11:04 am

ev-love, could be a problem with your browser. Which one are you using? IIRC, others have had the same problem and traced it to their browser.

222. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #292967 by Roger Stanyard on November 28, 2008 at 10:58 am

This whole thread on Proposition 8 has become a bore that has taken over nearly the whole of the RD.Net forum.

Duffing up Bernstein has its limits.

223. £35,000 of taxpayers' cash given to 'atheist bus' group

Comment #292959 by Roger Stanyard on November 28, 2008 at 10:47 am

passutoba - humm. Interesting comment. I wonder what Steve Jones, a "notorious" atheist things about it when he contributes his pieces on science.

224. £35,000 of taxpayers' cash given to 'atheist bus' group

Comment #292954 by Roger Stanyard on November 28, 2008 at 10:43 am

ev-love - the RD.Net site has been playing up since about 4pm GMT. Likes like site admin are trying to instigate some changes.

225. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #292941 by Roger Stanyard on November 28, 2008 at 10:25 am

DG, you've just said precisely nothing.

It's meaningless drivel.

226. Atheist Foundation of Australia Bus Slogan Rejected!

Comment #292917 by Roger Stanyard on November 28, 2008 at 9:42 am

CaptainMandate - sadly it also reminds me of a case some years back where a fundamentalist bigot hounded a mentally ill young man until he commited suicide. The fundie then bragged bout what he had done to the young man's mother. The same fundie then wrote to parents of children killed in the Columbine masacre claiming that they had deserved what they got because the school taught Darwinism.

If anyone wants further details about this utter scumbag, please let me know.

227. Atheist Foundation of Australia Bus Slogan Rejected!

Comment #292897 by Roger Stanyard on November 28, 2008 at 9:11 am

Aquilicane, sohow do we deal with this sort of case:

Posted: November 20, 2008
11:10 pm Eastern


By Bob Unruh
© 2008 WorldNetDaily



Richard Dawkins

A New York man is linking the suicide of his 22-year-old son, a military veteran who had bright prospects in college, to the anti-Christian book "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins after a college professor challenged the son to read it.

"Three people told us he had taken a biology class and was doing well in it, but other students and the professor were really challenging my son, his faith. They didn't like him as a Republican, as a Christian, and as a conservative who believed in intelligent design," the grief-stricken father, Keith Kilgore, told WND about his son, Jesse.

"This professor either assigned him to read or challenged him to read a book, 'The God Delusion,' by Richard Dawkins," he said.

Jesse Kilgore committed suicide in October by walking into the woods near his New York home and shooting himself. Keith Kilgore said he was shocked because he believed his son was grounded in Christianity, had blogged against abortion and for family values, and boasted he'd been debating for years.

Discover how atheism and immorality are being cleverly sold to Americans in David Kupelian's controversial best seller, "The Marketing of Evil."

After Jesse's death, Keith Kilgore learned of the book assignment from two of his son's friends and a relative. He searched Jesse's room and found the book under the mattress with his son's bookmark on the last page.

A WND message seeking a comment from Dawkins or his publisher was not returned today.

(Story continues below)




The first inkling of a reason for the suicide came, Keith Kilgore told WND, when one of Jesse's friends came to visit after word of his son's death circulated.

"She was in tears [and said] he was very upset by this book," Keith Kilgore said. "'It just destroyed him,' were her words.


Jesse Kilgore

"Then another friend at the funeral told me the same thing," Keith Kilgore said. "This guy was his best friend, and about the only other Christian on campus.

"The third one was the last person that my son talked to an hour before [he died,]" Keith Kilgore told WND, referring to a member of his extended family whose name is not being revealed here.

That relative, who had struggled with his own faith and had returned to Christianity, wrote in a later e-mail that Jesse "started to tell me about his loss of faith in everything."

"He was pretty much an atheist, with no belief in the existence of God (in any form) or an afterlife or even in the concept of right or wrong," the relative wrote. "I remember him telling me that he thought that murder wasn't wrong per se, but he would never do it because of the social consequences - that was all there was - just social consequences.

"He mentioned the book he had been reading 'The God Delusion' by Richard Dawkins and how it along with the science classes he had take[n] had eroded his faith. Jesse was always great about defending his beliefs, but somehow, the professors and the book had presented him information that he found to be irrefutable. He had not talked … about it because he was afraid of how you might react. ... and that he knew most of your defenses of Christianity because he himself used them often. Maybe he had used them against his professors and had the ideas shot down."

He then explained to Jesse his own personal journey of seeking "other explanations of God's existence" and told of his ultimate return.

"I told him it was my relationship with God, not my knowledge of Him that brought me back to my faith. No one convinced me with facts. ... it was a matter of the heart."

Keith Kilgore believes it was a biology class that raised questions for his son, and a biology professor at Jefferson Community College in Watertown, N.Y., where his son was attending, who suggested the book.

A school spokeswoman told WND that the "God Delusion" was not a part of the biology curriculum, and several of the professors she contacted said they had not even read the book. However, the spokeswoman was unable to contact all of the professors in the department and could not state that none of them had suggested the book to Jesse.

Local police also did not respond to WND inquiries about the investigation into the death.

"One of his friends, and his uncle (they did not know each other) both told me that Jesse called them hours before he took his life and that he had lost all hope because he was convinced that God did not exist, and this book was the cause," Keith Kilgore told WND.

Keith Kilgore, a retired military chaplain who has dealt with the various stages of grief and readily admits he's still in the "anger" stage over his son's death, said his son apparently had checked the "Delusion" out of the college library.

"I'm all for academic freedom," Keith Kilgore said. "What I do have a problem with is if there's going to be academic freedom, there has to be academic balance.

"They were undermining every moral and spiritual value for my [son]," he said. "They ought to be held accountable."

He suggested the moral is for Christians simply to abandon public schools wholly.

"Here's another thing," he continued. "If my son was a professing homosexual, and a professor challenged him to read [a book called] 'Preventing Homosexuality'… If my son was gay and [the book] made him feel bad, hopeless, and he killed himself, and that came out in the press, there would be an outcry.

"He would have been a victim of a hate crime and the professor would have been forced to undergo sensitivity training, and there may have even been a wrongful death lawsuit.

"But because he's a Christian, I don't even get a return telephone call," the father told WND.

He said he tried to verify the book assignment himself several times, without getting a response from the school.

Jesse Kilgore blogged on NetPotion and Newblog, and the writings that remained mostly addressed social ills and how anti-Christian many of the world's developments appeared to be.

He used the pen name JKrapture because, his father said, "He believed in the rapture, the evangelical concept of the Lord coming back."

On the Web, Jesse described himself as "conservative and mainly independent. I am a culture warrior and traditionalist. I have been debating since I was in 5th Grade, and never looked back. It is a habit I can't let go of."

One of Jesse's uncles, writing on the same website as Jesse, wrote: "While I knew he was having struggles with his faith, I had no idea that it ran that deep. … There are not enough words to describe how devastated I am at his loss. I know that some of you got to know him pretty well and (since I already started getting some questions about him) felt that you all should know that he is no longer with us."

From among the online community came these responses: "I am shocked and so sorry for your loss – our loss. My prayers are with you and all of your family at this difficult time," and "I AM at a loss of words.....I am sooooo sorry to hear your loss. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family."

Keith Kilgore told WND he feels, by allowing his son to move into the atmosphere of a secular school, like "I put a toddler in the front of my car."

"My son is the Adam Walsh of the culture war. That's who my son is," he said, referring to the child abduction victim whose case was used to create a wide range of amber alert and other programs to protect children.

He said he has a wake-up call over the anti-Christian agenda of public education. And he has some goals.

"I want to hold schools accountable for what they're teaching our kids. This was malpractice," he said.

Dawkins, considered one of the world's most outspoken atheists, is a professor in the United Kingdom. He came to prominence in 1976 with his book "The Selfish Gene," promoting evolution.

In his "Delusion" treatise he claims that a supernatural creator almost certainly does not exist and that faith qualifies as a "delusion" – a fixed false belief.

228. Interview with Richard Dawkins on fairy tales and retirement

Comment #292830 by Roger Stanyard on November 28, 2008 at 8:16 am

LeeLeeOne,

I'm getting problems with the front page - blocks of text are mving from right to left.

I assume Josh and pals are making changes. The problem started around 4 pm GMT, just about starting time for work in San Francisco.

229. Interview with Richard Dawkins on fairy tales and retirement

Comment #292788 by Roger Stanyard on November 28, 2008 at 7:59 am

Charloue, thanks to Vaal I've just learned to use blockquote as well!

230. Interview with Richard Dawkins on fairy tales and retirement

Comment #292769 by Roger Stanyard on November 28, 2008 at 7:51 am

Sorry Charlou - without quotes I mixed up what you were saying with what you are quoting.

231. Interview with Richard Dawkins on fairy tales and retirement

Comment #292758 by Roger Stanyard on November 28, 2008 at 7:47 am

Charlou says "Religions also experience natural selection, and we are seeing their evolution right now."

No they don't. Religions are a meme, not a gene.

232. Interview with Richard Dawkins on fairy tales and retirement

Comment #292752 by Roger Stanyard on November 28, 2008 at 7:44 am

Charlou ,

"There was an unquestionable deterrent effect of capital punishment on murder rates. Each convict executed saved 2 victims from being murdered. So there is some data."

233. Interview with Richard Dawkins on fairy tales and retirement

Comment #292746 by Roger Stanyard on November 28, 2008 at 7:41 am

cHARLOU "I would like to see him honestly address the evolutionary purpose of religion."

Why? Why should anyone accept that religion has an evolutionary purpose?

How about the other way round - religion is a product of evolution of the brain.

Or how detrimental to evolution it is given the millions have died in the name of religion.

234. £35,000 of taxpayers' cash given to 'atheist bus' group

Comment #292627 by Roger Stanyard on November 28, 2008 at 4:35 am

World Exclusive to RD.Net Forum Readers!

What the Daily Torygraph Really Meant to Say, By Lunchtime O’Booze, Religious Affairs Correspondent

An evil atheist group planning to put blasphemous adverts on London buses declaring that "there's probably no God" has been given £35,000 in taxpayers' money stolen from Torygraph readers by Labour Government.

Satan, who is running a campaign get rid of faith schools and wants to end the Church of England's position as the established religion, was given the grant by the Government's equality watchdog and is using it to stage a series of debates about the place of Daily Torygraph readers in public life.

The four events will include speakers from Torygraph groups but one of the keynote addresses is being delivered by the prominent atheist Professor Old Nicholas, who claims "religious belief shares the same intellectual respectability and rationality as belief in the editorial opinion of the Daily Torygraph".

Critics (Lunchtime O’Booze) say it is wrong for the Equality and Human Rights Commission to give taxpayers' money to a controversial organisation whose stance would be found objectionable by many readers of the Torygraph (Sir Herbert Gussett).

Neil Addison, a Taliban barrister who specialises in religious discrimination, said: "It's a bit like paying the Roman Catholic Church to lecture on women's rights.

"There's nothing wrong with Satan and his associates organising seminars, but it's the fact that they're not Tories and also getting public money.

"There is the question of whether this is what Government money should be going for, particularly in a time of recession. It should go to impoverished Torygraph readers such as Mr. Conrad Black.”

"If we're having a debate on religion, should we be paying the Lib-Lab side of the argument to hold it, especially with public money?"

Satan says he is dedicated to bringing about "a world without religious privilege or discrimination" and represents "people who seek to live lives without religious or superstitious beliefs".

As well as lobbying the Government for the disestablishment of the Church and the scrapping of faith schools and religious assemblies, he registers "officiants" who hold wild sex orgies and all-night drinking sessions, read books by Richard Dawkins and organise gay weddings, funerals and naming ceremonies with no religious content.

Satan is also the "official campaign partner" of the atheist bus campaign, launched earlier this year, which seeks to place on London bendy-buses a series of adverts declaring: "There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and get involved in evil".

It is administering donations to the cause, which was set up in response to religious adverts on public transport linked to a Daily Torygraph website "threatening hellfire for Guardian readers".

Using the public money it has been given by the equality watchdog, Satan has planned four conferences on "religion or belief" between now and February which will question whether it is right for Torygraph readers to be given special treatment in hell.

The first, held earlier this month, was addressed by the Lib Dem MP Evan Harris, who has been dubbed "Dr Death" by a hack at the Torygraph for his campaign to liberalise parking ticket laws in Tooting. (find some other dirt on him-ed)

The other keynote speeches will be delivered by Angela “Charles” Manson, a former gay rights activist who became a senior Guardian-reading civil servant; Prof Nicholas, who will discuss whether religious groups should be exempt from discrimination laws; and Brian Gibbons, a former GP who is now a Welsh Assembly Druid.

The Equality and Human Rights Commission confirmed that it had given a £35,000 grant to the atheist group this year, but pointed out that it also funds 666 other organisations that campaign for an end to discrimination in race, gender, age and sexual orientation and also let the blacks, Poles and gays in.

Lucifer, Satan’s executive director, was on the Government task force that led to the creation of the equalities watchdog, so is clearly a bent Labour Party crook.

The Equality and Human Rights Commission confirmed that it had given a £35,000 grant to Satan, but pointed out that it also funds 666 other organisations that work to tackle discrimination and promote community cohesion in hell.

It said: “The list includes nine organisations specifically focused on religion and belief from different perspectives, as well numerous other organisations that have an element of religion and belief in the work they do., a position which clearly excludes the Daily Torygraph”(shurely shome mishtake here? ed).

The country is going to the dogs. Vote UKIP.

235. Why we believe in gods

Comment #292588 by Roger Stanyard on November 28, 2008 at 3:09 am

Yet again Wooter wanders into the forum scratching his bum, mumbling the same old repetitive canards and making a nasty smell.

Yawn

Hey, Wooter, why don't you look up the ninth commandment?

You might just suddenly find you are not even a Christian.

236. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #292325 by Roger Stanyard on November 27, 2008 at 1:32 pm

Goldy says "Evolution wasn't around then :-)"

Since when has a mere fact ever stopped a cretinist from believing what the heck they want?

237. £35,000 of taxpayers' cash given to 'atheist bus' group

Comment #292304 by Roger Stanyard on November 27, 2008 at 12:21 pm

SimonW - I dunno, I would have thought that seeing a bunch of seriously inbred, intellectually challenged Germans in central London beats have one's sun bed pinched by Germans in Benidorm.

238. £35,000 of taxpayers' cash given to 'atheist bus' group

Comment #292300 by Roger Stanyard on November 27, 2008 at 12:15 pm

Aquilacane - What are you talking about? The monarchy does wonders for education.

Anyone who ever hears a member of the British royalty opening their mouths knows exactly what a lack of a decent education results in!

There should be a special award for the monarchy for providing intellectual services to London cabbies.

239. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #292296 by Roger Stanyard on November 27, 2008 at 12:04 pm

God fearing Atheists - And another thing! Mr Faulkes must have been an evilutionist as he was Catholik.

240. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #292293 by Roger Stanyard on November 27, 2008 at 12:01 pm

God fearing Atheist - Well, of course, there is the view that Mr. G Faulkes Esq. was the only sane and sensible person ever to have entered Parliament.

241. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #292284 by Roger Stanyard on November 27, 2008 at 10:58 am

God fearing atheist - I forgot to add that a lot of the cretinists and fundies who post in fourms like this are there to preach and save souls.

I've just seen an American fundie pastor post a Thanksgiving Day prayer to a forum full of evilutionists.

I was tempted to point out to him that not only is Thanksgiving Day not celebrated outside of North America but that England's prime celebration in Novemeber is commerating the execution of a famous Christian by burning effigies of the said Mr. G Faulkes. formerly of the Basement, Westminster, London WC1.

All good, clean family fun!

'nough to send American fundies nuts.

242. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #292282 by Roger Stanyard on November 27, 2008 at 10:47 am

God fearing atheist comments "Now you are contradicting yourself! :-) You wrote on another threrad a few days ago "don't underestimate them"."

You're probably right. I can't remember what context I said it in. The "best" of the cretinists are indeed formidable opponents. They've been trained in rhetorical skills (and every other dodgy skill in the book).

However, with few exceptions they don't bother with forums like this because they end up being beaten. What we get, instead, are the dross (Wooter, for example) who aren't even aware when they are pulled to pieces and publicly humiliated for their own stupidity.

The game the "top" cretinists have with forums is to open their own and keep any criticism out through censorship. See the blogs of Bill Dembski and David Anderson to get the point.

243. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #292270 by Roger Stanyard on November 27, 2008 at 10:06 am

Steve says "That is exactly my view. He will take ideas like "probability" and "Ockhams Razor" and "free will" and mix them into some mish-mash of an argument that I think it may be hard for the inexperienced reader to know where the problem with his argument is. I have no doubt he knows this."

I've seen this approach a lot in the last few years. the common denominator is that they keep repeating themselves (time and time again) even when they are shown to be wrong by people who clearly know what they are talking about.

I assume that what is happenng is that the posters actually don't anywhere even remotely understand their own arguments. They are the equivalent of the saloon bar expert.

244. £35,000 of taxpayers' cash given to 'atheist bus' group

Comment #292247 by Roger Stanyard on November 27, 2008 at 9:06 am

hungarianelephant - and the fundies repeatedly claim that atheism is a religion.

Of coure, the other issue is that promoting a secular state is not only compatible with religious belief, but, to many, essential for the right to believe.

245. £35,000 of taxpayers' cash given to 'atheist bus' group

Comment #292241 by Roger Stanyard on November 27, 2008 at 8:39 am

Peacebeuponme - you might be interested to learn that the National Secular Society is unable to obtain charitable status because it is involved in political lobbying to keep church and state seperate.

Can anyone spot the hypocracy in the position of charity law in the UK?

246. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #292203 by Roger Stanyard on November 27, 2008 at 6:51 am

Steve "It is the waiting for turbulence that gets to me."

You should have flown Concorde instead.

247. All aboard the atheist bus campaign

Comment #292196 by Roger Stanyard on November 27, 2008 at 6:30 am

brother John says "Any self-prolaimed Christian or minister who plays on peoples' guilt is plain devilish and totally un-christian."

Please, please do go and preach that to fundies. Such as my delightful pal Pastor David Anderson or other luminaries in the church such as the 40,000 American pastors who joined the Ku Klux Klan. How about a talk with the head of the US National Association of Evangelicals, an organisation that appointed Ted Haggard as its head.

Does anyone want me to bore the pants of them by continuing with this long list of bigots and misanthrops?

248. £35,000 of taxpayers' cash given to 'atheist bus' group

Comment #292181 by Roger Stanyard on November 27, 2008 at 6:10 am

Oh dear, the Daily Torygraph has still not moved on from being an aged old fart's newspaper.

Despite Bill Deedes shuffling off his mortal coil, it looks as if the paper is still employing word-class old fogeys.

For those in here who are not British, the Torygraph has traditionally been the newspaper of the middling middle classes.

Unfortunatly it is still pitched at another age when few people went to university. It shows. It's readership is aging (dying).

Famous Torygraph readers have included Dennis Thatcher, Sir Herbert Gussett (the famous Dorset recluse) and the landlord of the Horse and Groom.

249. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #292173 by Roger Stanyard on November 27, 2008 at 6:02 am

Bernsteain replies to by comment "It is self evidendently correct according to welfare critera."

Well, Bernstein, is it or is it not?

250. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #292171 by Roger Stanyard on November 27, 2008 at 6:00 am

Stave says "Bernstein is a closeted self-hating gay. If gay people are given equal rights, then he would have to respect his gayness as being normal and not something to oppress. Therefore difference has to be maintained. Homosexuality has to be considered second-rate, inferior, not worthy of him."

It wouldn't surprise me given that the homophobic religious right in the USA had as its leader Ted Haggard.