Comments by Goldy

2451. Mormons urged to back ban on same-sex marriage

Comment #201524 by Goldy on June 29, 2008 at 7:08 pm

There is nothing circular in claiming, for example, if God exists then He necessarily exists

What did I tell you, Steve.
So if God doesn't exist, he necessarily doesn't exist?
So far all you are saying is that God exists. Personal conjecture. He does not exist, I say. What makes you more correct?

2452. Mormons urged to back ban on same-sex marriage

Comment #201520 by Goldy on June 29, 2008 at 7:06 pm

The God of GÃ¶del's Ontological Argument has properties that they lack. Moreover, such a God is unique by the identity of indiscernibles.

Gibberish, sorry.
God is a god. They are gods. The fact that they don't exist is conjecture (some people may still worship them, ergo they exist, no?) God didn't exist before but he exists now. So in both cases they both existed and didn't exist. So they are all the same.
I can do gibberish too.
Show me God exists.

2453. Mormons urged to back ban on same-sex marriage

Comment #201481 by Goldy on June 29, 2008 at 6:12 pm

Very amusing, yes.
God?

2454. Mormons urged to back ban on same-sex marriage

Comment #201479 by Goldy on June 29, 2008 at 6:01 pm

Comment #201474 by Robert O'Brien
Nice bit of evasion there. Doesn't really answer the question, though, does it? As I recall, it went something like this

Robert, if possible, could you please provide some argumentation to support the existence of God?

Sniffily saying that Kant can't provide a decent argument (damn, been waiting to write that!) doesn't convince me of the existance of anything except your dislike of said philosopher.
But let's forget that - something to show God exists. Should be easy if it is so self evident you assume it needs no answer. God alone existing, as opposed to the pantheon of the other gods who, to me, have an equal footing on the podium of belief.

2455. 'I despise Islamism': Ian McEwan faces backlash over press interview

Comment #201467 by Goldy on June 29, 2008 at 5:34 pm

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/category/story.cfm?c_id=301&objectid=10518753&pnum=0

Paul Thomas: Islamism has that point of difference
5:00AM Saturday June 28, 2008
By Paul Thomas
Writer "attacks Nazism." Not exactly a ball-grabber of a headline, is it? After all, Nazism is a hateful ideology and attacking hateful ideologies is the sort of thing writers tend to do. Apart from anything else, it's easier than writing.
Attacking communism would be just as ho-hum, although there was a time when many people of an artistic or intellectual bent found quite a lot to like about communism.
Ditto socialism and capitalism - they may be compatible with democracy but they're still "-isms" and, like all -isms, not to everyone's taste.
But as several English writers have discovered, attacking Islamism is a different matter.
Last week Booker Prize winner Ian McEwan, author of the recently filmed Atonement, told an Italian newspaper that he despises Islamism which wants to create "a society that I detest".
The Independent interpreted this as "an astonishingly strong attack" and floated the idea that his words might constitute a hate crime.
We're not talking here about Islam the religion, which has frequently demonstrated its willingness to co-exist with other belief systems; we're talking about Islamism the ideology, which by word and deed has frequently demonstrated the opposite.
Although Islamism is often portrayed as a determination to turn back the clock, theorists such as philosopher John Gray have pointed out it actually has much in common with modern utopian ideologies like communism and fascism.
Like them it offers a one-size-fits-all system that leaves no room for opposition or dissent.
Given that one size never has and never will fit all, in practice such systems can only be implemented and maintained by stealth and/or force.
So why the fuss? It can't be because we're deeply respectful of religion. Christianity in its various forms is attacked and mocked all the time.
That's free speech, and if you don't like it, too bad. We deride Christian fundamentalists for their disbelief in Darwinism, but as yet they haven't advocated the death penalty for espousing the theory of evolution.
Western societies are deeply and justifiably suspicious of religious groups that seek to extend their influence through the political process.
The comic opera political interventions of the Destiny Church and Exclusive Brethren caused much indignation yet clearly these groups are for the most part inner-directed organisations - cults if you will - with a limited appetite for reshaping society in their own image.
Like most other -isms, Islamism has global ambitions and accepts no restraint on its spread and application.
Is it to do with race?
By and large Islamists aren't white and these days racism - at least when practised by whites - is the royal flush of unacceptable behaviour, trumping all else.
Our multicultural ideal depends on the majority embracing diversity even when that encompasses disagreement over fundamental principles.
Surely attacking the ideology of Islamism is no more racist than condemning the crimes and credos of Robert Mugabe or the generals of Myanmar or the Khmer Rouge or Maoism.
And the problem with trying to accommodate Islamism within the multicultural umbrella is that multiculturalism presupposes mutual tolerance.
By viewing all other belief systems as blasphemies whose heretical followers must be converted or eliminated, Islamism rather hangs its hat on intolerance.
Unfortunately the debate over how to respond to Islamism is hopelessly tangled up with the occupation of Iraq, a project conceived in a flush of neoconservative hubris, launched on hazy assumptions and deceit and, until recently anyway, managed with a lethal combination of arrogance and incompetence.
Thus while McEwan, Amis and others have argued that Islamism, with its black and white world view, its medieval censoriousness, its oppression of women and persecution of gays, threatens everything liberals hold dear, their stand has received little support from liberals who tend to see it as right-wing and pro-American.
This has caused particular difficulties for Amis whose father Kingsley, having been a communist as a young man, trekked across the political spectrum to end up a Colonel Blimp figure classifying the outside world into various sub-categories of wog from his leather armchair.
Rather than address his arguments, some of Amis Junior's critics have preferred the cheap shot of suggesting that he's simply re-tracing his father's political odyssey from trendy leftie to unsavoury reactionary.
The disquiet or outright revulsion inspired by George W. Bush's America has created a favourable climate for Islamism, both in terms of recruitment and encouraging the tendency to downplay its incompatibility with Western values.
The Islamists will miss Bush when he retires to his ranch but they'll get over it.
They're in it for the long haul.

2456. I believe that there is no God.

Comment #201464 by Goldy on June 29, 2008 at 5:13 pm

I've attended several universities where students and Professors lambasted religion with free reign. If there's even been a moment in history where the atheist gets his time on the pulpit it's now.

Pendulum.
Actually, can you say that the religious have been forever tolerant? Silly point - what are you trying to tell us?

2457. Mormons urged to back ban on same-sex marriage

Comment #201436 by Goldy on June 29, 2008 at 4:30 pm

OK, I got to work. When I come back, I expect to see a referenced essay on the existance of God, followed by a short note on why an older mythology is not the model for a new one (again, referenced)
These will be peer reviewed.
TTFN

2458. Mormons urged to back ban on same-sex marriage

Comment #201432 by Goldy on June 29, 2008 at 4:27 pm

Basing ethics on words in an old book is also highly dodgy until the existence of God thing has been established.

:-( Awww, I was going to have some fun! You spoilsport... ;-)
Just waiting for the old, "God is outside the natural, outside the physical, he exists because he cannot be proven" line :-)

2459. Mormons urged to back ban on same-sex marriage

Comment #201427 by Goldy on June 29, 2008 at 4:24 pm

You havent addressed Brian Engish's questions yet.

Nor mine.

2460. Mormons urged to back ban on same-sex marriage

Comment #201423 by Goldy on June 29, 2008 at 4:21 pm

From Wikipedia

The virgin birth of Jesus is a religious tenet of Christianity and Islam which holds that Mary miraculously conceived Jesus while remaining a virgin. A universally held belief in the Christian church by the second century,[1] this doctrine was included in the two most widely used Christian creeds, which state that Jesus "was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary" (the Nicene Creed as revised by the First Council of Constantinople) and was "born of the Virgin Mary" (Apostles' Creed), and was not seriously challenged, except by some minor sects, before the Enlightenment theology of the eighteenth century.[1]

The gospels of Matthew and Luke say that Mary was a virgin and that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit[2][3]. These gospels, later tradition and current doctrine present Jesus' conception as a miracle involving no natural father, no sexual intercourse, and no male seed in any form. The Gospel of Matthew additionally presents the virgin birth of Jesus as fulfilling a prophecy from the Book of Isaiah.

and

In Christian and Islamic belief, the virgin birth of Jesus was not a case of parthogenesis, such as occurs naturally in some species and has been artificially induced even in mammals, but instead produces only female offspring, and Jesus was male. It is seen as due to a direct intervention by God, and is presented as such in the Matthew and Luke, and in the Qur'an. Like the resurrection of Jesus, it is seen as a strictly miraculous occurrence for which no natural explanation can be offered.[7][8]

So that's Mat and Luke for and the other two undecided. The Quran is brought in to adjudicate...

Mary's virginity at the conception of Jesus is also a tenet of Islam.[5] The Qur'an frequently refers to Jesus with the matronymic Jesus son of Mary (Isa bin Maryam).[6]

Folks, I think we have a winner!

2461. Mormons urged to back ban on same-sex marriage

Comment #201416 by Goldy on June 29, 2008 at 4:19 pm

In any event, I do not think the Virgin Birth is an indispensable Christian dogma. Mark, John, and Paul make nary a mention of it, so Christians are free to believe in it or not, IMO.

No, it is very important. Recite the Lord's Prayer - it is a rather important theme.
What you have given us is your personal opinion. You need a spot of evidence to back it up.

2462. Your Brain Lies to You

Comment #201413 by Goldy on June 29, 2008 at 4:14 pm

I've never understood why marriage is considered religious. If you're devoted to someone and wish to commemorate it after a set period of time with a ceremony, why should it be religious?

A non-religious ceremony just involves two people living together. All this "By the power invested in me..." stuff smacks of an official ceremony which is religious in nature - whether the deity in question is your particular god or the state, it matters not.
The ceremony is religious in tone.
But that is my own personal opinion.

As it is, we were married by a Methodist in a civil ceremony on a beach in Fiji. Kinda cool - but still religious.

2463. Mormons urged to back ban on same-sex marriage

Comment #201406 by Goldy on June 29, 2008 at 4:10 pm

Like Brian says (Comment #201402). Then we can discuss whether or not Jesus the man became Horus the myth personified :-)

2464. Mormons urged to back ban on same-sex marriage

Comment #201401 by Goldy on June 29, 2008 at 4:07 pm

Jesus warns of false teachers arising, so these disputes should come as no surprise

Bob, Bob, Bob...they ALL warn of false preachers! It's a common ploy! Politicians do it all the time - and I'll bet you don't believe a word they say, eh?

2465. Mormons urged to back ban on same-sex marriage

Comment #201394 by Goldy on June 29, 2008 at 4:02 pm

OK, Bob - my opening shot
http://www.adam.com.au/bstett/BJesusandHorus74.htm
I away your refutation.

Brian, if God was the father, then Jesus could not have been from the line of David...prophesy wrong...

2466. Mormons urged to back ban on same-sex marriage

Comment #201386 by Goldy on June 29, 2008 at 3:59 pm

Bugaboo, you're on time this time! :-)
Oh, BTW, no it isn't!

2467. Mormons urged to back ban on same-sex marriage

Comment #201382 by Goldy on June 29, 2008 at 3:56 pm

Mythicists like to peddle this nonsense but when I actually confront them with the particulars of these narratives they either back off from their claims or disappear.

We won't. So, why?

2468. Mormons urged to back ban on same-sex marriage

Comment #201375 by Goldy on June 29, 2008 at 3:52 pm

good morning Goldy.....sorry it was required ...no?

:-D

Edit - 2 Monty Python references and it's not even 11 am yet ;-)

So, Bob, back to serious matters - ridicule of Egyptian mythology in Palestine influencing the Jesus myth? Why?

2469. Mormons urged to back ban on same-sex marriage

Comment #201370 by Goldy on June 29, 2008 at 3:48 pm

I think they are worthy of ridicule.

More so that an actual virgin birth, a dodgy geneology and a resurrection?

Edit - and why ridicule (careful, TeraBrat will pull you up on that!)? The similarities are so outstanding.

2470. Mormons urged to back ban on same-sex marriage

Comment #201368 by Goldy on June 29, 2008 at 3:47 pm

Hey Robert, I'll bet you never expected the Spanish Inquisition when you came here, eh? ;-)

2471. Mormons urged to back ban on same-sex marriage

Comment #201363 by Goldy on June 29, 2008 at 3:45 pm

True, Billy, true. Just following on from the Canuck feller...Harpur. Makes sense as Egypt was just around the corner...
In fact, monotheism in Judaism - one can blame that on the Persians instilling Zoroastrianism into the Jewish religious mindset, so in a way, one can say God is Zoroaster :-)

2472. Aliens need Christ's redemption, too

Comment #201357 by Goldy on June 29, 2008 at 3:43 pm

Reading this mornings paper here in Wellington NZ

Dominion Post? If so I'll try and get that online...

2473. Mormons urged to back ban on same-sex marriage

Comment #201353 by Goldy on June 29, 2008 at 3:39 pm

Bob O'B, what do you think about teh Horus connection with regards to Jesus? And also the Isis connection?

2474. Mormons urged to back ban on same-sex marriage

Comment #201346 by Goldy on June 29, 2008 at 3:33 pm

OK, now I'm crying.

There is a groundswell of popular opinion to end this practise rising in Yemen itself.
Amnesty International can try and do someting, but change has to come from the people themselves...

2475. Mormons urged to back ban on same-sex marriage

Comment #201341 by Goldy on June 29, 2008 at 3:31 pm

Not necessarily true, you CAN get pregnant without penetration. It's less likely but it happens.

Parthenogenesis? Without that Y chromosome, it would be bloody hard for Jesus to have been a man...

2476. Mormons urged to back ban on same-sex marriage

Comment #201301 by Goldy on June 29, 2008 at 3:03 pm

There is a vast difference between Jesus the man and Jesus the myth. The latter, a figment of Pauline imagination, would not be recognised by the former, I'll wager. Life of Brian spring swiftly to mind...

2477. Mormons urged to back ban on same-sex marriage

Comment #201292 by Goldy on June 29, 2008 at 2:55 pm

For evidence that Jesus Christ existed I refer you primarily to Josephus, Tacitus, and the NT. Yes, the Greek version of Josephus has been doctored by an overzealous Christian, but there exists versions that do not suffer from textual corruption, such as the Arabic version preserved by Agapius. (See Shlomo Pines' An Arabic Version of the Testimonium Flavianum and Its Implications.)

Is hearsay evidence? I don't think any of the writes actually had knowledge of Jesus, merely secondhand knowledge of rumours concerning someone people called the Christ. In the Middle Ages, there were the same rumours of a man called Prester John (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prester_John) - doesn't mean he existed. Or how about King Arthur, Merlin, Zoroaster, Odin, et al?

Now, getting back to marriages, read this snippet in the NYT
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/world/middleeast/29marriage.html?_r=1&ref=world&oref=slogin

I'm guessing those that oppose same sex marriages between consenting adults are not quite as condemning of these ;-)

2478. Your Brain Lies to You

Comment #201101 by Goldy on June 29, 2008 at 3:11 am

All I can think of is that bog is the Russian for "god"!

In my case, nothing more prosaic than the o being next to the i on my keyboard. I'd change it, but then a whole heap of things would not make sense :-)
Layla, memorising by rote is useful sometimes. I still do my multiplication tables that way :-) As for memorising the Koran in Arabic, I guess that's right up there with memorising the Rig Veda in Sanskrit. Keeps a language alive...sort of...in aspic, I guess. Useful to historians. It may also help in memory - I believe the memory is like the rest of the body - needs exercise.
19% of UK residents believe the sun revolves around the Earth?? Blimey - when and where did they get the answers? Reading town centre on a Friday night??

2479. I believe that there is no God.

Comment #201036 by Goldy on June 28, 2008 at 8:27 pm

Look above the comment posting box - you'll see the "Comments posting guidelines"
otherwise, do this, type < then "blockquote" followed by > To end the quote, type /blockquote between the arrows.

Uhm, all we need is one side of the issue to understands Paul's point of view.

Then it's not Jesus' views Christians follow then, is it? We are only looking at one side of the issue - Paul's side of the issue. We have absolutely no idea what Jesus thought.

Uhm, another no. Nearly every Christian community orthodox and those labeled heretic adhered to at least one of the four Gospels, such as the Gnostics and the Gospel of John, the Ebionites and Matthew, Adoptionist and Mark, Marcionites and Luke,etc

Probably why they were picked - but how many other Gospels do we get to see? And how many other gospels did these "heretical" sects get to see which influenced their "heresy"?
Off to a mate's house now to talk bikes and eat. TTFN.

2480. I believe that there is no God.

Comment #201011 by Goldy on June 28, 2008 at 6:43 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
325, it was.

2481. I believe that there is no God.

Comment #201010 by Goldy on June 28, 2008 at 6:42 pm

TheIdiot, all this would make more sense if it wasn't for the fact that the Gospels that I read are those chosen by men following Paul's traditions (Synod of Niceae, 300-something).
As for "Paul takes issue with..." - maybe it would be more convincing if it wasn't so one sided. Can you point me to James' Epistle, or even gospel?
Everything is rather Pauline, as I am sure you will agree.
This was is all Paul's invention silly, it's the pronounced theme of all the Gospels after he had a wee look-see and a bit of a tinker :-)

2482. I believe that there is no God.

Comment #200997 by Goldy on June 28, 2008 at 5:35 pm

Thank you for the imformation about Jesus and his followers.

Look up the pork eating thing - if that is not marketing, I don't know what is!

2483. Your Brain Lies to You

Comment #200995 by Goldy on June 28, 2008 at 5:33 pm

Depressed folks maybe? Also, seratonin is behind hallucinations from drugs like PCP. What more can you want?

Beer.

2484. Your Brain Lies to You

Comment #200993 by Goldy on June 28, 2008 at 5:31 pm

Is there a difference between a bog no-no and a swamp no-no in China?

Stupid fat fingers of mine...need to make a quick recovery...think, Mike, think...

Yes, there is, but only phenotypically. Genetically they are very similar and can interbreed (debate as to whether to call the offspring boggy-swamp no-nos or swampy-bog no-nos rages to this day). As you may or may not know, the no-no is a strange creature, almost mythical, that inhabits wetlands and other watery areas. It is closely related to the NZ taniwha, which is seen as a spirit by the Maori (showing the elusive nature of this beast). It is known in the UK as the Will o' the Wisp, showing the extremely large area it inhabits...

Thinks - phew, I think I got away with that one...
:-D

2485. I believe that there is no God.

Comment #200988 by Goldy on June 28, 2008 at 5:25 pm

If that was aimed at me I'm puzzled. That's what I said.

I know, I was agreeing with you. I was telling you which follower started the show. Not all his followers agreed...
:-)

Reading all TheIdiots posts, am I the only one coming to the conclusion he is an "Atheist for Christ"?

2486. Your Brain Lies to You

Comment #200982 by Goldy on June 28, 2008 at 5:18 pm

OK, this thread is starting to annoy me. There is nothing wrong with wanting to maintain the positive aspects of one's heritage, even if it originates in religion.

Relax, I'm only playing Devil's advocate :-) After all, I did get married - that's a religious based ceremony. OK, so it was because my atheist Chinese wife told me to as being an unmarried couple with child is a bog no-no in China...
However, not everyone agrees with the concept adn age of a tradition or culture is not a reason to follow it. We are here to argue and make points and have these points dissected and discussed...well, in between all the jocularity and swearing and ridiculing...

2487. I believe that there is no God.

Comment #200966 by Goldy on June 28, 2008 at 4:26 pm

A painting can be quite beautiful, but not be a source of hope.

Call me sad and lost, but I can't see how a dead Jew nailed to a tree two millenia ago be a source of hope either. Mind you, can't knock paintings. Important enough to cause a schism in the Christian church...
And talking of painting, better get back to it. That room ain't painting itself!

2488. Your Brain Lies to You

Comment #200965 by Goldy on June 28, 2008 at 4:21 pm

:-) Of course - it's a rather clever ploy. Any argument put forth will be countered by a "No" because....we couldn't possibly understand. There is some deep meaning somewhere, apparently, that is known only unto a select few. I'm not one of them, it seems ;-)

2489. Your Brain Lies to You

Comment #200955 by Goldy on June 28, 2008 at 3:31 pm

Isn't a 4,000 year old culture worth preserving? I don't expect you to understand.

Are you sure this culture has not changed any? And why is it so worth preserving? What about other cultures? Is it only worth preserving for it's age? Footbinding had about a millenium of history behind it - worth preserving?
Reminds me of the Chinese 5000 years of recorded cultural history. Been checked by censors for the last, oooooh, 5000 years and appropriately sinified for general consumption...

2490. I believe that there is no God.

Comment #200951 by Goldy on June 28, 2008 at 3:23 pm

Sunday morning, rain has stopped for a spell and I'm having a coffee before painting a room...so I read DickyD.net :-)
TerBrat - I'm sure you are a really nice person but sometimes you come across.....slightly immature. I'd try and phrase that less impolitely, but caffeine has not kicked in. It is rather endearing in the right time :-) And you still think people in love should share - how sweet. You must be young ;-)
Christianity was not Jesus' invention. Paul of Tarsus saw a quick buck in the making and started a new cult. I believe there was conflict between him and Jesus' own family. A lot of the NT is Pauline spin doctoring and marketing - no circumcision and the lack of porcine restrictions on diet are meant to appeal to Gentiles and hence broaden the appeal. He must have been good at promotions - see how Christianity flourished! I dare say if he were alive today, Paul would be a concert promoter or something...

TheIdiot, I am still confused. You believe, yet you don't. Mother Theresa complex? You say you are witnedd to a cross - could you explain that for me? Not quite sure I get you there. Obviously not a literal thing - unless you are talking about the crosses in church.
If you are digging for a religion for meaning, why Christianity? Are you also looking at other religions? Or is this a cultural comfort blanket?
There is no god. Everything you do if from yourself. As Emo once said
"I prayed and prayed and prayed for a bicycle, but never got one. So I stole one and asked for forgiveness instead!"
This sums up religion to me.

2491. A secular world is a sane world

Comment #200615 by Goldy on June 28, 2008 at 1:45 am

Scottishgeologist

But, he doesnt believe it. He's a "pick n mix" man.

Aaah, a hypocrite. Hmm, they are the worst sort to argue with - after all, if they have no idea where they stand, then they'll shift and squirm at every argument....hey! Would you believe it - he does!!! :-D

2492. A secular world is a sane world

Comment #200612 by Goldy on June 28, 2008 at 1:41 am

Steve

this is now the 7th or 8th time of asking.

9th, I think. Might have missed one or two, but the last time I saw this question, it was the 8th time, so this must be the 9th :-)
What a sad git I can be!

2493. Common New Atheist Fallacies

Comment #200609 by Goldy on June 28, 2008 at 1:39 am

TB, if ridiculing never convinces anyone of anything, why is it still used? Surely if it never convinced anyone, the whole concept would have died out. However... ;-)
Ridicule does work. Drink lots of beer, get a gut and then try turning up to work in a tight T-shirt (the sort one would have worn when a lot thinner...). Trust me I'll, errr, one will never wear such a shirt again!

2494. A secular world is a sane world

Comment #200605 by Goldy on June 28, 2008 at 1:30 am

In the Brave New World of Atheist facism one can only shudder at the thought of what being 'neutralised' means. After all we have tried that before in Europe.

Indeed we have, DR, indeed we have. For centuries people have been neutralised - and for what? Worshipping the wrong gods ring a bell? Sexuality (I'm pretty sure you don't like homosexuality)? Or how about your personal favourite - being a Catholic. You hate them, I take it. After all, you subscribe to this

CHAP. XXV. - Of the Church.

V. The purest churches under heaven are subject both to mixture and error; and some have so degenerated, as to become no churches of Christ, but synagogues of Satan. Nevertheless, there shall be always a church on earth, to worship God according to his will.
VI. There is no other head of the church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the church against Christ, and all that is called God.

Synagogues of Satan. What an odd choice of word for describing a place of worship dedicated to Satan (there is only one god, right? So Satan isn't a god...but how can one tell - he appears as powerful as God!). Are Jews followers of Satan too?
What a vile religion you follow!

2495. I believe that there is no God.

Comment #200523 by Goldy on June 27, 2008 at 7:41 pm

Goldy,

And what's hers is yours ;-)

Aaaah, TB, you have much to learn! What's hers is, of course, hers!
I think there is a great deal of research into human social behaviour. Look up baboon society - I think that's being used as a model.

2496. I believe that there is no God.

Comment #200505 by Goldy on June 27, 2008 at 6:32 pm

TB, I know. I was talking of the actual concept of marriage. the passing on of genes and raising young is fairly separate. Lots of species don't kill the offspring and indeed look after all the young.
I still think marriage (as opposed to living "in sin" with children) is an ownership issue.
It is to me, anyway. My wife told me we were getting married and now everything I have is hers ;-)

2497. I believe that there is no God.

Comment #200489 by Goldy on June 27, 2008 at 6:05 pm

I think the institution of marriage may have evolved for this reason.

I dare say ownership (of the woman, invariably) is probably more important a factor in the evolution of marriage...

2498. I believe that there is no God.

Comment #200486 by Goldy on June 27, 2008 at 6:03 pm

The most frequent argument you'll find for opposition to gay marriage is a belief that it serves as a gateway, that undermines the traditional role of family, and blurs the line on sexuality. In fact the entire political argument against gay marriage is its effect on society and family.

Ok, you said about this...

And as I said, I myself am not opposed to gay marriage, but I understand the view of the other side well enough that I can articulate it.

Why, then, bring it up? So what if it does not conform to "traditional" values. Neither does polygamy - I don't see a witch hunt against them. How about Hindu weddings? Or, indeed, any other religious affirmation of living together?
You say you can understand the "other side" (which, given your views, is hard to know which side this is ;-)) - so can we. And we refute that. Heterosexual marriages can also ruin society. Forced marriages are a traditional norm, yet I find it hard to see how that is societally cohesive. Mistresses are very traditional (and many of those that wish to impose their utopian views on the rest of us are not short of them) and that really can destroy a social family unit.
Why didn't you bring them up? Why focus on homosexuality?
As an aside, some societies have no problems with homosexual or transgender issues.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fa'afafine
http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2008/06/25/world/20080625VIRGINS_index.html
I think, if you dig into history, you will find this anti-homosexual views relatively recent...and in many cases the origin lies in the God you are apparently wavering over...

2499. I believe that there is no God.

Comment #200443 by Goldy on June 27, 2008 at 4:31 pm

TheIdiot, just been reading your answer to Steve (the "gays and women don't deserve equal right becasue people shag too much" comment) and I think you don't understand atheism. You claim you are half atheist is incorrect. You believe, maybe can't fit the Bible to reality but you are trying.
Atheists don't all go to science. Most just use common sense and a well developed sense of reality to cope :-)

2500. Stop distorting young minds!

Comment #200202 by Goldy on June 27, 2008 at 4:28 am

I'd suggest that faith schools tend to do better in the UK because they managed to minimise the interference from local government....

That's the trouble. Education is always at the whim of someone or some committee with an agenda. There is no way, as far as I can tell, when education is just, well, education. I don't want religion in it, nor do I want politics. I want education, the teaching of what is useful to living. I don't want people telling my children that God is the way, that the Bible is true and inerrant, but neither do I want my kids to learn that everything that is their culture is wrong.
OK, not making much sense...someone will polish my sentiments.