2851. Couple charged in Norway over genital mutilation of daughters

Comment #190285 by Goldy on June 8, 2008 at 5:43 pm

Islam is NOT a race!

I think this has been beaten to death now. No, it is not a race, but what is your mental image of a Muslim? I dare say it is nothing like the face you see in the mirror every morning...

2852. A word for nonbelievers

Comment #190281 by Goldy on June 8, 2008 at 5:27 pm

Off topic, but can't resist
Letter in the Independent

Duty to denounce abominations

Sir: As a Christian, Iris Robinson MP (wife of new Northern Ireland First Minister, Peter Robinson) is quite right to condemn homosexuality as an "abomination" (report, 7 June). The Christian Bible is very clear on this point (Leviticus 20:13).

But why stop there? Just a few chapters earlier (Leviticus 11:10-12), the outrageous practice of eating shellfish is identically denounced as "an abomination to God". But, to this day, deviants fond of crab, shrimp, oysters, prawns, lobster and the like get away with their disgusting practices without censure from Members of Parliament â€" and this despite the fact that shellfish-eaters could presumably be "turned" (through counselling) with much the same degree of success as that found among homosexuals.

KEITH GILMOUR

GLASGOW

2853. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #190275 by Goldy on June 8, 2008 at 4:57 pm

txpiper

The tissue should not be there. It is as simple as that.

So simple, you can, presumably give a reason for that :-)

Component commonality is often used to support the idea of common ancestry. I understand the premise, but I don't see it as significant. The DNA of everything is composed of four nucleotide bases. Same with RNA with one substitution. Almost all protein molecules are sequences of twenty essential (chiral) amino acids. So what? That is the pattern of living organisms. The commonality of components doesn't tie the forms together any more than bricks relate buildings to each other.

Ever laughed so hard snot shot out of your nose? I have now - icky keyboard!
So, it isn't significant. Odd how is appears to follow a pattern, though. Pray tell the reason for your dismissal. If I may carry out your brick analogy, why are houses in Aberdeen grey and houses in Leicester red brick? Why are animals that have been said to have a common ancestor is relatively recent times seen to have greater commonality that animals that have a common ancestor further back in time? They should, by your argument, have the same commonality.

You also actually believe that anyone who doesn't accept what you believe is either ignorant or a moron. But they aren't. There are lots of people with much higher IQ's and a much more serious education than any of you or myself, who saw or see the facts pointing back towards an instantaneous creation.

You are right. I do consider those that cannot face scientific evidence moronic. Stands to reason - their data is refutable and anyone with better evidence can topple this apparent edifice you call science. However, all we get are Biblical myths dressed up as evidence which is swatted away by schoolchildren, never mind scientists. To carry on banging the square peg into the round hole is moronic. To try and change the square peg by painting it a different colour heightens the moronicity.
I am sorry, but I am not a respector of high IQs or lots of education. A clever person can still be a total nitwit and education, after school, follows the same paths as evolution...some fields lead to a dead end. I am sure the researcher of cryptoscience, having spent 40 years in that field, can amass a dazzling array of evidence, but all can be refuted, correctly and with peer reviews, by a sixth former for his science project.
For all their edication, where are their publications? I mean in serious literature? Oh, yes, I forgot - there is a world-wide conspiracy, a Zionist plot, no less, aided and abetted by the Communist Party of China, to debunk these important findings of God (always God, eh? Never heard anything said about Zoroaster...) and maintain the ignorance of what you perceive to be the truth.
You know, when you said you beleived in the Biblical flood, everything else you have written has become sport for us :-) You, sir, are one of the morons you described above. You contribute nothing really but you are fun to toy with.
What you know of science can be written on the back of a stamp - and that AFTER it has been stuck on an envelope.

2854. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #190267 by Goldy on June 8, 2008 at 4:34 pm

Qster

Although interestingly such creatures like sharks/crocodiles dont appear to have 'evolved' for aeons...why is that?

Sorry for the delay in replying. Are you sure they have not evolved? I can see that croc, on the Nile, eyeing the farmer in the field and wondering how that monkey would taste....
The body shape may be the same, but I'll wager the insides are totally different.

2855. A word for nonbelievers

Comment #189682 by Goldy on June 7, 2008 at 1:16 am

Can't for the life of me imagine a sign like that appearing in Europe or New Zealand (I sometimes wonder about Australia - Brian, you'll educate me!). Long may it remain so! :-)

I don't understand why atheists are so splintered

Because the only thing linking us is a lack of belief in gods. A bit like saying all humans have two eyes, so they should all act the same. Doesn't work that way. We love splintering because we all have our own ideas of how things should be, ideas which the rest don't agree with.

2856. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #189231 by Goldy on June 5, 2008 at 9:51 pm

The embrace of science is great but people must be aware of its limitations and not regard it as absolute.

That's why it deals in theories which can be refuted :-) I don't think it really is regarded as absolute - after all, isn't that one of the "failings" thrown at scientific research by the dogmatists?

2857. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #189228 by Goldy on June 5, 2008 at 9:42 pm

Sometimes I get the chance to check into the creme de la creme of atheist sites (this one!) to see whats new in the world of atheist thinking and each time I'm dissapointed but not surprised to find that actually nothing is new. In this thread like may others >6700 posts amounts to utter monotony..

Methinks you'll find a lot of the monotony is due to theists (a huge majority Christians) simply not understanding/reading/accepting the scientific reasoning. To them, it is all "God did it". I think you'd understand this lack or rationality, you being one of the deluded...(Edit - oops, didn't mean that! Thought you were someone else! 10000000 apologies!!!)

Atheist argues "Darwin discovered evolution ergo things evolve without god ergo there is no god"

I'm not sure that is strictly what is said, is it? As it is, Darwin didn't discover it alone - Wallace was there and I do believe the seeds of the Theory of Evolution were around before that. Certainly farmers over the preceding millenia understood the concept well enough.
An athiest mostly says there is no god because it doesn't seem possible. The theist tells us that God is unknowable (always a Christian, did I mention that?) so he must exist - that makes as much sense as a chocolate spoon!

2858. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #189206 by Goldy on June 5, 2008 at 7:34 pm

I don't recall if you were around when I noted some of the specialization involved in mammary function. Do you think that it is reasonable to believe that reptiles developed things like this in a long, tedious, coincidental series of beneficial DNA replication errors? This temporary developmental specialty is about independent, cooperative, integrated systems in both parent and offspring. Considering the complexity involved, do you think it is unreasonable to doubt that such fine-tuned features in both generations developed in tandem on an accidental basis?

Check out the duckbilled platypus. It's all in it's genome...

...Someone had to design and assemble the adaptation catalog. That degree of sophistication, complexity and accuracy can't reasonably be considered accidental.

This is what Darwin did not have the advantage of knowing.

Call me obtuse, but the idea that God did it goes back a few millenia. Darwin did have the advantage of knowing - all he had to do was read Genesis (and ignore the odd inconsistency).
Txpiper, why do some some animals appear to share more DNA with other animals than with others. The hippopotamus and the whale are of particular interest to me. Why is the hippo "closer" to the whale than it is to the horse? Please answer this - you keep dodging this issue with your Ezekielisms.

2859. The Expelled Evolutionist

Comment #189179 by Goldy on June 5, 2008 at 4:28 pm

Bonzai

To such believers the status of God would be greatly diminished if he can actually be tracked by science and human intellect. It will lose its mystique as a result. They probably wouldn't believe anymore if there is incontrovertible evidence that God exists.

Well, I guess this is the god who had no images of himself, unlike other gods ;-) Did have a telephonic link at one time but that's somewhere else now - Ethiopia or Zimbabwe, I forget which was the more credible.
Pathfinder

My God is, unconditionally, indubitably, a "God of the gaps".

And when the gaps close, he becomes a lesser god. A diminishing god - interesting. Or does your god maintain his stature despite the closing gaps because he is an unknowable god etc, etc?

Personally, I distrust your adamatine certainty there IS NO GOD

There is no god except that which we make within us. I can say there is no god with certainty because I never see anything that gods do that don't happen anyway. There are gods, same as dreams. I know dreams exist - indeed, one can see and hear dreams in others. Yet a dream is from the dreamer only, shared only if remembered and recounted. Bit like gods, eh?

2860. The Expelled Evolutionist

Comment #189172 by Goldy on June 5, 2008 at 3:59 pm

Of course the existence of God cannot be proved!

Why not? And if this is true, why the worship? See why I am an athiest? This is completely inconsistent with rationality, yet it has been fed to me from an early age by society as totally normal and, yes, rational.

2861. Storm erupts over 'virginity' divorce

Comment #189168 by Goldy on June 5, 2008 at 3:42 pm

....and a growing Islamism, especially, as I said, the further towards the Syrian/ Iranian etc lands you go.

Aaah, this brought back memories for me. Worked in Syria for a spell. Lovely country - avoid the Al Sharq beer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_beer) if you don't like hangovers. Mosy of the people I worked with in no way could be counted as devout Muslims. Indeed, Muslim might have stretched things a bit too. Pork, booze, shagging etc seemed to be perfectly acceptable...well, as acceptable as any of those activities generally are. Only one guy I know prayed and I think he was generally inconsistent with this. All the differences were generally cultural - inasmuch as English Protestantism is different to Spanish Catholicism...

2862. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #189166 by Goldy on June 5, 2008 at 3:30 pm

Sorry for the delay in replying to comment #188870 - moving house and now I have a cold! Bloody mutating viri (but hey, that's evolution for you!)

You bet. A fluke. But your attitude reflects an odd disposition towards science, one that I noticed in some other articles I read about this particular T rex specimen. It sounds like you'd prefer that this particular fluke had not happened. I would have thought that anyone with a real interest in science would be absolutely thrilled.

Not quite sure where you get the idea I didn't want this to happen. It's a brilliant discovery! I dare say a cretinist like you would prefer it not to happen - it does show that these creatures not mentioned in the Bible but grudgingly admitted to Ken Ham's Flintstone's Museum was actually a creature we can compare with today's creatures.
Your tree thing is confusing. How could the trees have grown there 45 million years ago? Ummmm, seeds spring rapidly to mind... As for old wood conversation pieces, I regularly partake of fine ales in a pub called Galbraiths here in Auckland. They are served to me over a bar, the top of which is a 60 000 (yes, sixty thousand) year old piece of kauri. Swamp kauri, it's called. Oddly, pretty much as your wood described above...albeit a bit younger :-)

2863. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #188854 by Goldy on June 4, 2008 at 7:53 pm

txpiper, mate, give up. You're wandering around like Ezekiel now, ranting and raving. Heck, you even started out like Ezekiel, come to think of it.
The T.rex tissue was a fluke. They happen. Look at wood - it has been found fossilised and turned to stone. It has been found as coal. And, I do believe it has also been found as....wood. Just serendipidy. I think the great excitement was that it was found as such. Should look up the paper to see what they say about it.
As for Tiktaalik being "still a fish" - how typical. You cretins...sorry, cretinists, scream out for "transitional forms" (stupid really as they are still all aound us) and when you get given one, it's "still a fish" or "still a bird". What do you want us to do? Rip out embryos from a variety of mothers to show the evolutionary sequence occuring in a series of feotuses? Has DNA sequencing completely passed you by? Why do you think people call the hippopotamus a relative of the whale and not of it's namesake? Why is man more closely related to chimpanzees than lemurs?
Of course, thinking the Earth is only, what, 6000 years old does mean it is hard for you to visualise the time scale involved in change. In this age of globalisation, I guess you can't put your mind back to seclusion and isolation of species by moving continents and time.
On another note, can you explain the black squirrels I have read about terrorising UK grey squirrels. And the fact that both are different from the red squirrel. But hey, they are all squirrels, after all - don't illustrate anything.
Fuckwit.

2864. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #188298 by Goldy on June 3, 2008 at 8:06 pm

No, albinism is not the result of a mutation. It is an inherited disorder that happens only when both parents carry a corrupted gene. I expect that the gene is mutant, but albinism doesn't have anything to do with a mutation occurring in the DNA of an albino.

I've highlighted your babbling. If the gene is corrupted, it is mutated (or a variant, as we apparently call them now). So albinism is a result of a mutation. Genes are encoded in the DNA, ergo it is a mutation of the DNA. The fact that a heterozygous offspring does not show the homozygouz mutation does not make it any less a mutation, just that the wild type variant masks the mutated allele.
As for junk DNA, did I not read that this is useful in preventing mutations? After all, if there is a lot of "junk", chances are that the mutations will happens there to a greater degree. As the DNA is "junk", nothing can be seen to occur. However, it does seem that a lot of "junk" is actually "mechanism unknown"...

Besides, albinism is an aberration, whereas what occurs in the cave-isolated animals is an adaptation to that environment. I don't think that the latter is accidental.

Albinism is only an aberration in our sunlit environment. What use melanin in a dark cave? It is an adaptation to the environment, yes. Albinism has no adverse effects in a cave, so is allowed to flourish. Maybe albino genes are linked to other genes that enhance life without light - one would need to check that. After all, these things are often linked :-) http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=940DE5DB1439F933A15751C1A96E948260 (as an aside, there is also this http://www.myopia.org/ebook/11chapter6.htm)

2865. Group wants Wi-Fi banned from public buildings

Comment #188285 by Goldy on June 3, 2008 at 6:10 pm

Golly, that's a bit of a pickle, isn't it? Still, one has to ask, do we stop telecommunication progress to protect a small minority or do they have to find ways to treat their illness? I can imagine grumbles if all food was to be halal or kosher so our religious minorities won't be offended - surely this is pretty much the same?
Earthling, you analogy suffers a bit - if Thewhitepearl's boss insisted on keeping the daisies, he is wrong. However, if the offices across the way had daisies, would one expect them to remove them too? Should the city council remove all daisies to protect TWP? Methinks not. In her bosses case, he is infringing on her. In the latter cases, I'd think she's infringing on them.
I think the wireless sufferers have to try and sort themselves out - it is a bit much that non-sufferers have to accommodate them to such a degree.

2866. A New Step In Evolution

Comment #188279 by Goldy on June 3, 2008 at 5:01 pm

Mutation seems to involve as yet unknown factors, factors which science will hopefully soon discover.

Factors in mutation? I think we know basically. Trouble with random processes, it's hard to work them out - bit like second guessing the person that doesn't walk a straight line on the pavement (I hate them!).
As it is, we know what drives the continuation of a mutation - breeders have been using that for millenia :-)

2867. Storm erupts over 'virginity' divorce

Comment #187837 by Goldy on June 2, 2008 at 8:07 pm

All it means is that when you claim to be equal to heterosexuals (in say the right to adopt children), the onus is still on you to convince us why. To say that *we* (i.e. heterosexuals) must first prove you are not fit for adopting children on the grounds of your homosexuality is being disingenuous.

Aren't all homosexuals the offspring of heterosexual parents? Or at least of parents who perform heterosexual acts. Maybe it is *we* that must be screened for suitability in raising children, eh?

but I'd rather have (vaginal) sex with my girlfriend now. -

You have a vagina? Hmmm, the mind boggles. Got to love the English language, though - how it can be twisted and turned...

2868. Storm erupts over 'virginity' divorce

Comment #187787 by Goldy on June 2, 2008 at 4:43 pm

From Arab News
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=7§ion=0&article=110523&d=3&m=6&y=2008&pix=opinion.jpg&category=Opinion

2869. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #187784 by Goldy on June 2, 2008 at 4:32 pm

...zombies ARE scientifically impossible...

You've not seen me in the morning then? ;-)

2870. Town moves against Islamic school

Comment #185528 by Goldy on May 28, 2008 at 2:52 am

MaxD

EDIT: Goldy you are attributing to her some psychosis. This seems like a possible mistake on your part. It isn't clear to me that she is crazy from this story, she seems simply to be following the radical teachings of her beloved Islsm.

Mate, I see religous people as slightly touched upstairs anyway. She's going out of her way to spread discord and strife. That's seriously touched upstairs! I stand by my assumption in this case! I am also worried that someone this mentally unstable is allowed to carry on as normal (albeit under surveillance). Seems to me like society allows the cancer to spread because, well, cancerous cells have rights too...

Christopher Davis

I realize I have digressed again, but I have just accepted that you and I aren't going to see eye to eye on the meat of this debate.

Digression is good - lets some more information filter to those of us who are not there and do not know. I am sorry we can't meet eye to eye here, but then we are different and, as they say, vive la difference! :-) I'll ponder over the next few days on the subject and see if I can't maybe see your point. Will be busy, mind - moving my garage tomorrow and then moving house on Friday. Bought a new house just as interest rates shoot up. Oh, yes, I'm smart, me... ;-)

Opposing Islam should be the duty of rationalists and humanists everywhere.

Just Islam?

2871. Town moves against Islamic school

Comment #185463 by Goldy on May 27, 2008 at 9:29 pm

MaxD, I said before

Islam is a danger, maybe. So is China, apparently. And Russia (if the Telegraph has any credibility). Islam is a danger to our way of life because we appear to let them. That, to me, suggests it is not Islam that is the danger to us but we ourselves.

Have a gander here
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/28/world/europe/28terror.html?ref=world
I read this in the article

After all, she said, she knows the rules. "I write in a legal way," she said. "I know what I'm doing. I'm Belgian. I know the system."

That system often has been lenient toward her. She was detained last December with 13 others in what the authorities suspected was a plot to free a convicted terrorist from prison and to launch an attack in Brussels. But Belgian law required that they be released within 24 hours, because no charges were brought and searches failed to turn up weapons, explosives or incriminating documents.

Now, even as Ms. El Aroud remains under constant surveillance, she is back home rallying militants on her main Internet forum and collecting more than $1,100 a month in government unemployment benefits.

So, who is more a danger to us? This psychopathic woman, or the western system that allows her to indirectly kill others?

2872. Town moves against Islamic school

Comment #185461 by Goldy on May 27, 2008 at 9:11 pm

Bonzai, I don't think those committing honour killings are seeing themselves doing God's work either. Merely protecting their tribal standing.
As for infanticide, they want a boy. If they kill teh girl and try again, maybe they'll ge that boy. If they sell the girl, they get money and who knows, maybe she gets a better life.
My father in law, before my daughter was born, told us that it would be OK if we had a girl - he wouldn't mind. I thought this was a bit funny at the time. Still, he's very taken by her :-) Now we are expecting another child - hooo boy! Mother in law is a bit surprised and shocked that we're having another and with her daughter being 38...golly. Still, wife and daughter going to Shanghai for 3 weeks in a fortnight - should get all teh shouting and arguing out of their systems then :-D

2873. Town moves against Islamic school

Comment #185452 by Goldy on May 27, 2008 at 8:38 pm

MaxD

Certainly this is true but could be said of a Quaker community as well. My question is compared to Islamic communities what is the prevalence of such violence. What I am trying to say is that you seem to be bending over backwards to make a balanced critique when in fact the scales may not balance.

We have Fanusi comparing Islam to the most monstrous thing ever to slither out of people's heads. Of course I shall try and balance the scales a bit. If they don't balance, so be it. I will be wrong. But I cannot let my faith in humanity go. When we talk of Muslims, we are talking of people. The doctor that delivered my child was Iraqi and I think a Muslim. I have worked in Syria, I have lived in Muslim areas in the UK, I have had Muslim friends.
Islam is a danger, maybe. So is China, apparently. And Russia (if the Telegraph has any credibility). Islam is a danger to our way of life because we appear to let them. That, to me, suggests it is not Islam that is the danger to us but we ourselves.
As for the prevalence of violence in China - http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1122/p01s03-woap.html (pardon the source...ahem!). I don't know what goes on in rural China, but female infanticide apparently happens, as in India, quite often. What difference that with honour killings in the grand scheme of things? Or of selling females? We hear a lot about honour killings in the Muslim world - but what percentage of families practise that? Could it be that the media, by reporting factual stories, might distort the picture somewhat (I know that doesn't make sense, but it does to me...sort of).
Again, I just have faith in normal people.

2874. Town moves against Islamic school

Comment #185447 by Goldy on May 27, 2008 at 8:26 pm

Slow down Goldy, I'm not rying to piss you off (the increase in typos leads me to believe you are irritated).

just bad typing on my part. you should see my MSN messaging!
I am not saying that hatred of Muslims constitutes racism if (maybe I should write IF) Muslims were not seen in the public perception as, well, not white. Trust me, had they said OK to this school (all academic now as I have heard the powers that be said no - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7420907.stm) and the first load of school kids turned out to be Bosniacs, then I would really have wanted to see the townspeople's reaction :-)
I know it is not racism to hate religion. It can't be - hell, what race is any religion? But there are associations in people's minds when you mention religion. After Bali and Cronulla, I really don't think people in Australia see Muslims as anything other than, well, not white. I would love to be shown to be very wrong and I would apologise wholeheartedly. But I don't see it that way, no more than I'd see anyone assuming a Chinese bloke is called Mohammed and is a Uigher (he is Chinese - one of the 56 "nationalities". It is Han he ain't).
We have images on our heads of who is what - a Muslim in the UK, in my mind, is Pakistani, probably Pashtun. It's not my fault that we associate things with people and races. And reading something like this

Tensions reached their height last November when two pigs' heads were left on the site of the proposed school. Pork products are forbidden for consumption according to Islamic dietary laws.

in the link provided doesn't make me feel any less in the mood to change my mind.
As for the Afghan schools - I guess it is hard for them to drum up enthusiasm. As soon as NATO goes, the Taliban will be back. I heard a BBC thing where they say they are torn (the Afghans, not Taliban) between wanting the troops to leave and yet knowing they need them for peace. They know as soon as the troops go, they will be back to fighting and Islamic excesses. And if you know that as a teacher you could be killed for teaching girls and having the school burnt down, I'd guess enthusiasm is hard to muster. Maybe they just have a wait and see attitude. No point getting all excited - the troops will go. See what happens then, then get enthused.
OK, lets round up 1500 white Muslims and send them to Camden :-)
Question - is hating Jews racism? I mean, seeing as they pretty much encompass quite a few races now....
And yes, my spelling was awful! Sorry for that!

2875. Town moves against Islamic school

Comment #185415 by Goldy on May 27, 2008 at 6:59 pm

MaxD

Holy shit. That is one of the most amazing things I've yet encountered on this site. And that is saying something for there are no shortage of equivocators found here.

What?? And Wooter is...? Damn, I am disappointed. I'm trying to argue rationally and I am willing to have my mind changed. For this I am compared to Wooter, Clearmind, ASMarques! :-( Damn! That hurts! Luckily my Triumph passed - that's salved my hurt a bit...
As for suicide bombers in China - there have been a few. Luckily for us, they are directed against the Chinese state. I think honour killings would be not that uncommon in parts of China - but not reported. Not something the state would allow Xinhua to tell the world, is it? Shit, we can't even get reporters into Tibetan regions to find out the real situation there regarding the anti-Han rioting. Just becasue you don't hear anything doesn't mean it isn't happening. I've heard precious little about East Turkestan - I don't for a minute presume it's all quiet and hunky-dory there.

Can you be so sure of this? It may be true but I am not so sure. Christianity of the middle ages would brook no challengers in the cruelty and barbarity department? How then did it open up, and allow for the enlightenment?

Is it really your position that religion doesn't cause violence?

Of course that was conjecture on my part. However, I think religion is like a gun. Just as guns need the people to use them as weapons, I think religion does the same. In fact, given that religion is a man made construct (there is no God or gods), it is some mystical mumbo-jumbo that gives people powers way above their intelligence and allows unimaginable horrors to be perpetrated in the name of something that does not exist. Religion causes violence by justifying it. But it is just a philosophy, a series of words in a book or parchment. How people react to those words causes the violence - and if they are fucked up enough to use words in a book as justification to kill, I don't think a lack of religion would have stopped them. They are mentally fucked already.

Christopher Davis

You contend that the people of Camden are racists because they don't want a 1500 student Islamic school in their town. Your proof? Most of the Muslims here are Arabic looking. That's fucking weak and you know it.

Now I know even less about Camden than I do about China, and as one of the other posters said here (I'm paraphrasing) you don't have to step in it to smell it. You're closer to the Aussie culture, maybe these people are racists, but unless you can prove that this community would not be upset about a school for 1500 lily-white Muslims being built in their community then you can't make that charge.

You claim that you understand that Muslims are adherents to an ideaology not a race, your posts say otherwise.

I know piss all about Camden. I just read the BBC article adn hear it on the news when I wake up. Going back to my first post, I actually maintained the inhabitants of Camden were NIMBYs. Getting to your assertion that I see Islam as a racial issue - in a way, yes. You think my argument is "fucking weak". Well, maybe. BUt poeple are tarred with a broad brush, aren't they? Most Muslims in Austtralia are Arabs, at a guess. The Cronulla riots appeared to be about groups of "whites" against groups of men of Lebanese extraction and with a "Middle Eastern" appearance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Cronulla_riots). Read how this site put it http://www.australian-news.com.au/Cronulla_riots.htm
Hardly, then, a great leap of imagination to see Muslims being associated with Arabic looking people. Any more, I think, than Sikhs being attacked for being predominantly dark and turban wearing after 11/9, even though the attackers were Muslim and most Muslim men don't wear turbans (as far as I know).
I know Islam is not a race. No religion is a race. Only thing is, people associate certain races with religion. I may have mentioned that somewhere too.
What they should try and do now is get a Chinese school set up in Camden and see what happens. Then an Anglican school. I think you'll probably see what i think you'll see, even if most of the Anglican students are Chinese (because no one really associates Chinese with Anglicanism, do they?).

2876. Town moves against Islamic school

Comment #185367 by Goldy on May 27, 2008 at 4:11 pm

Mr Goldy from your post last night you said that you work with english people who refuse to integrate.?

Ummm, not having Kiwi friends, keeping inside an English "community" - you know - just not opening the net a bit to let the local flavour in. Like the Germans here who shop at the German butcher, use the German baker, use English only at work as they stay within the German community. That sort of thing.
This...

you speak the same language, your health system is identical, you have a democracy ,you drive on the same side of the road,your music is identical, you eat the same foods, etc etc etc. i do not wish to be disrespectful but what is the non integration you speak of can please give some examples

is also applicable to Muslims and indeed any ethnicity. In Bradford, at least, other than wanting their food halal, the Muslims have the same health care, drive on the same side of the road, have democracy, listen to the same music, eat the same food, speak the same language....
Regarding your Comment #185351 - surely you shuld have included a "1...2...3" in that too?
;-P
Off for a spell - need to get a Triumph TR6 through it's 6 monthly roadworthiness inspection. Just swapped the diff out for a Nissan R200 diff and tidied up the interior. Wish me luck!
Edit - Oh, and please, no formality! No need for Mr Goldy - Mike will do fine :-) Goldy is just a nickname that has followed me since my schooldays :-)

2877. What is science for?

Comment #185358 by Goldy on May 27, 2008 at 3:33 pm

Goldy, I don't know how old you are

40 - but fairly well read :-)

2878. Town moves against Islamic school

Comment #185356 by Goldy on May 27, 2008 at 3:26 pm

MaxD

Did you spell out the Asian Invasion angle in the post I from which I quoted you? If you did, I missed it. Anyway, I have suggested that Islam is unique, in this historical moment, from Christianity, and Judaism. And I thought throwing an obvious ethnic group in to your comparisson was dishonest because it misses the distinction that Islam is an ideology not a race. By definition you cannot be a white chinese person. Chinese/asian is racial definition.

I see your point. But then Chinese have been citizens of NZ and Australia (and indeed the other "colonies") for pretty much the same length of time as the Europeans. There are 4the generation Chinese here in NZ - are they less Kiwi thatn me becasue of their colour? And remember, I am the immigrant here - but more accepted, I feel. That's the angle I was trying to put.
Even Islam is pretty long standing in Australia. Ever heard of teh Ghan? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ghan) Look up the origin of that name.
And to all those who say not liking Islam is not racism, duuuuh! We know. But it is guilt by association. Surely that is not too difficult to see? Most Muslims here are either Arabs (which is a bit sticky for Iraqi Christian refugees), Malaysians or Indonesians or Somali, with a large peppering of Indians (from Fiji). White Muslims exist, but, well, who ever sees one? After 11/9, I read of Sikhs being attacked for teh sins of Muslims. But Sikhs aren't Muslims, are they, so why attack them? I guess the distinction is not as clear to some...

Christopher Davis

I wasn't trying to throw the Afghan card on you, sorry that it seemed that way.

My point was more about the schools. Actually, it's not just the Taliban burning down schools here. It's more complicated.

There is a fear of western indoctrination and a reluctance to educate girls here in the Pashtun areas. Our efforts are also thwarted by apathy and good old fashioned greed.

And these are hardly the preserve of Islam, are they? I am sure you'll find the very same happening in rural China. A product of a couple of decades of war and rampant corruption ?quot; not religion.

Fanusi, it is hard to accept everything you say about Islam. All religions are like this, some just happen to be followed by more backward people. I am sure if Christianity had stayed the Middle Eastern religion of choice, or pre-Islamic religion, the same would be happening now. And…

This would come as a surprise to, say, the Greek Orthodox Church, or the Nestorian Christians, or the Coptic Christians. Fact is, Christians rejecting the authority of Rome date back to the dawn of Christianity. Not one single sect of Islam that rejects the idea of the Qur'an as the uncreated word of God has survived. Not one.

This doesn't make sense. There are different sects of Christianity, which date back to the dawn of this sect. Yet all Muslim sects accept the Koran. Eh? All Christian sects accept the Bible. And if there wasn't a schism at the dawn of Islam, where would the Shia have turned up from? You got 2 fairly unrelated points here…

OverUsedChewToy

As much as I can see where you're coming from, since culture and ethnicity is something any human can adopt, change, grow up within, etc., I don't think the term "whitey" would actually encompass that much of a meaningful definition. It isn't this particular culture/subscultures "whiteness" that defines who they are ethnically.

Stick a person of any ethnicity with white skin next to someone with brown skin and see where the differences go. Same can be said for Muslims ?quot; you see them homogenously, yet they are Shia, Sunni, Sufi, etc, etc. Indian and Bangladeshis take a huge amount of shit in Saudi Arabia, even theough they are Muslims, which white people don't get, even though they are not Muslim (I use Arab News articles for this assumption, as well as my father's experience when he worked in Saudi Arabia). The range of variation within one "brand" such as whitey or Muslim, doesn't mean anything. That is why I used the term "whitey". Heck, Asians are all lumped together here in NZ ?quot; yet trust me, my wife would not like you calling her Korean and the Korean coffee girl I see every morning for my fix is most offended when referred to as Chinese.

OK, back to guns…

2879. Town moves against Islamic school

Comment #185132 by Goldy on May 27, 2008 at 3:26 am

Why would you want to group all "white" people together?

answered by NakedCelt.
New toy to chew on, OUCT - why do people here want to lump all muslims together?
I'm assuming your "Epic. Fail" refers to your understanding of what I wrote ;-P
OK, bed for this whitey - yellow lass is getting cold and 1/2 and 1/2 daughter is asleep finally.
G'nite all!

2880. Town moves against Islamic school

Comment #185122 by Goldy on May 27, 2008 at 2:51 am

One I missed...

Islam cares little for local law - they have their own. If enough Muslims move into a country and they become a majority, they can legitimately change the laws of that country.

You'll find that people tend to leave their countries of origin for security. They obviously like to keep their culture, so will attempt to do so. If they are ostracised, that plays into the hands of those that, for whatever nefarious reasons, wish to cause civil strife.
The majority of muslims in any country do not want to change things too much (and I say this despite what Fanusi's statistics say). If they did, they'd have to move again. So they want Sharia - Jews have their own courts too. But when it comes to the biggies in legal terms, they want good laws that work - the laws of the land that accepted them.
You'll always get non-integrationists. Even English people here in NZ can be like that - I know, I work with some. Same with Chinese - I know, some are our friends (did I ever mention my wife is Chinese?) don't really ever get outside their sinological comfort zone.
If muslims become the majority, of course they can change the laws. But then, they'll be the majority - and I really don't think anyone has ever treated the minority with utter respect, have they? Even us whiteys.

2881. Town moves against Islamic school

Comment #185117 by Goldy on May 27, 2008 at 2:38 am

My, what a load of comments regarding what I wrote!
MaxD

Come on, this was just silly and I think you know it. What was especially low was adding Chinese to your list.

How was adding Chinese to my list especially low? Not like they were welcomed with open arms and here in NZ there's talk of the Asian Invasion. Not low at all - pretty illustrative to me, I think.
Christopher Davis

It's this white-guilt driven, apologist patronization that allows Muslims to get away with any old shit they please just by screaming "RACISM!"

Maybe, but I think the rst of us know the smell of shit when it comes our way and we can tell. If muslims call for stuff we think is crap, we'll call it thus. Wanting a school is hardly that, is it. As for the Afghanistan line - well, that must make you an expert, eh? Though forgive me if I'm worng, but it is the Taleban that is doing the school burning, not the general population (who, if I am not mistaken, are muslim). I don't think the fact that schools were provided for by western money is the reason they are burnt down - maybe the fact that the money provided for was provided by the enemy and might be turning the populations hearts towards said enemy and making said population turn away from the Taleban might conceivably be closer to the truth. But hey, what do I know - I have never been to Afghanistan. Does Syria count?
I remain to be convinced.

2882. Town moves against Islamic school

Comment #185067 by Goldy on May 26, 2008 at 8:43 pm

I meant that to prevent an Islamic school from being built isn't racism per se, even if the motives were racist, since they don't affect the outcome, per se.

I know what you are trying to say, but reading the article doesn't change my mind that the majority of protestors don't want "wogs and niggers" in the neighbourhood.
To say race isn't an issue with religions like Islam, Buddhism or Hinduism is silly. I know a white buddhist from Iowa but no one is going to tell me the mental image they have of a Buddhist is a white Iowan woman.

2883. Town moves against Islamic school

Comment #185064 by Goldy on May 26, 2008 at 8:33 pm

How is this racist? Could someone pleae tell me? I mean, Islam is a religion, not a race or ethnic group, after all.

Describe to me the stereotypical muslim in Australia. Chances are he's somewhat Arabic looking....which rather tellingly you mentioned here

If they can't tell the difference between what an Arab (ethnic group) and a Muslim (religion) is, that isn't my problem.

2. Islamic schools (specifically) will always be potential extremist hotspots

And catholic schoools, protestant schools, Jewish schools, Chinese schools won't?

...and I'm sure the atheists that are there probably are.

Oh, most probably. Be hard to be heard over the ones shouting how they don't want wogs and niggers in the neighbourhood....

2884. Mail-boat record 'proves Darwin stole his original ideas from a Welsh scientist'

Comment #185059 by Goldy on May 26, 2008 at 8:15 pm

Why is it that Darwin keeps getting conflated with how "life began" as we don't know that information as of yet. Seems there have been hypothesis about it but nothing solid yet.

Can anyone lend information about this claim?

Because cretinist and IDiots are stupid.

2885. Town moves against Islamic school

Comment #185058 by Goldy on May 26, 2008 at 8:13 pm

It is the Muslim community in this case who are acting in a bigoted manner by wishing to change the status quo. Resisting this change does not require one to be xenophobic, just questioning of the Quarantic Society's long term motives.

So, if I get this straight, muslims do not integrate. Indeed, they remain in their little cliques. But if they try and integrate, maybe pop out of their ghetto for a spell, then all hell breaks loose because, well, they're not like us, they'll take over, women will have to be covered, indeed pubs will shut!!! Hardly an integrationists dream, eh? They're damned if they do and damned if they don't. Maybe bussing the children of muslims families might open their eyes to other communities - though I have to say if it is a community like this, I don't think they'll be too ready to maybe leave their own community and, well, integrate.

Why, in the name of 'multiculturalism' should anyone wish for the racial or religious demographic of their home to be changed to their detriment?

Why should this be so. If a person wishes to be a muslim, they can be so - they'll just have to follow the laws of the land and not demand change. This is up to the government not to fall for this "My culture is better than yours and I demand change!" line. Heck, even in Egypt they're not that limp wristed about that sort of thing
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7415495.stm

Egyptian columnist Suleiman Gouda wrote that if the owner wanted to invest in the international tourism industry, then he had to play by the well-known rules of the business.

Alternatively, he wrote, quoting an unnamed Arab head of state, he should sell his hotels to those who are prepared to do so.

Supporters of the decision say Egypt is a Muslim country and foreign visitors should respect local custom.

But critics say just as Muslims expect to be served Halal food on international flights, they should be prepared to respect the desires of their Western guests.

And Egyptian liberals see the incident as a clear example of how Saudi Arabia uses its financial muscle to spread its own puritanical brand of Islam to other countries.


Egyptian author Ezzat Al Qamhawy wrote that the incident was only an example of what Saudi investment in Egypt can do.

"It can strangulate the Egyptian tourism industry... by imposing Islam on tourists who are not Muslims, and compulsory drunkenness on the Muslim fish of the River Nile," he wrote, referring to reports that the stock was emptied in the river when the owner ordered staff to get rid of it.

2886. What is science for?

Comment #185056 by Goldy on May 26, 2008 at 8:01 pm

I really don't think anyone will even consider the subject I'm interested in and will only go off on tangent after tangent. When I ask what one thinks about a chemical process and the answer is "look into blood libel or your a conspiracist racist nazi!", I can see I'm not going to get anywhere and should just drop it.

I can see your point, but to go on this note is to, well, give in. If Muslims shout loudly, they win - not by power or logic of argument, but by intimidation and noise. This what has beaten you?
As it is, it is a silly argument, at least to me. It just doesn't gel with me - I can't see why there can be such a huge conspiracy, such a huge successful conspiracy (may I stress the word successful?). Turkey tried but outside its borders, the massacre of Armenians is still called the Armenian Holocaust. To say others dare not deny it for whatever conspiratorial reasons is silly - you are not in prison, nor is ASMarques.
You dn't get anywhere by running away (well, OK, you - you get away ;-)) and you don't convince others by doing so. Neither, it must be said, can you yourself be convinced of any opposition to your position by running from debate.

2887. Town moves against Islamic school

Comment #185044 by Goldy on May 26, 2008 at 7:00 pm

Turegum, Hilaly is a joke and acknowledged as one. The fact he has widespread grassroots support is not more relevant than Hanson having widespread grassroots support making her any less of a joke.

2888. Town moves against Islamic school

Comment #185042 by Goldy on May 26, 2008 at 6:54 pm

This isn't a case of someone burning crosses in somebody's yard, it's about the constuction of a 1500 student Madrassa in a community that, according to this article, has been historically resistant to growth.

I know it might make you feel all open-minded and superior to point out that not all Muslims are bad people mordacious1, but if you think for one minute that the majority of Muslims reciprocate our tolerance, then you are deluding yourself.

OK, so they are going to build a school. Townspeople are probably nimbys and don't want a building that'll probably be built out of character.
And if the muslims are so intolerant, they'll not want to mix, right? So, when a bus load of "students" arrives, they'll not be going around the town but heading staight to school, then heading straight home. No mixing involved. Muslims are happy, townies are happy, no mixing happening.
I'm pretty sure the same would be happening if some aboriginal betterment program building was proposed to be built in the town.
A church, on the other hand....

2889. What is science for?

Comment #185039 by Goldy on May 26, 2008 at 6:48 pm

Blake - that's a bit of a cop out. Are you losing your spine to save your neck? Or has there been another change of heart, that maybe the creditable scholars are right after all and not subject to a world wide Zionist conspiracy?

2890. Town moves against Islamic school

Comment #185036 by Goldy on May 26, 2008 at 6:41 pm

Vinelectric

Something for you to consider. If you don't institutionalize religious education it goes underground and impressionable young people come out the other end, indoctrinated with whatever, to haunt the society.

Exactly. Heck, where better to put an Islamic school then? Somewhere hidden by the muslim majority or right in the centre of white Australia, with twitching curtains and suspicious neighbours? ;-)

Joshie

This is a beautiful part of New South Wales, too beautiful to be spoilt with the introduction of a non-integrating, undemocratic, misogynist, oftentimes violent value system such as Islam

I dare say pretty much any patriarchal faith system is as you describe. I dare say the aboriginal tribesmen living in that area would have said the same thing about a bunch of white (or red, depending on exposure to the sun) people appearing and telling them how they should behave.
Isn't the argument used against this school pretty much the same argument used against Israel?
As for Islam threatening our civilisation - nothing threatens that more than us ourselves. Hell, they can't even get their own shit together. Caliphate dreams will remain just that - they just can't do it. Threatening civilisations...no. They can't. They had a stab at in in the 700s coming through Spain, then the 13-1400s coming up the Blakans and finally in the 1600s coming from the East. Each a failed endeavour which, in a way, hastend the end of the Caliphate and resulted in their being colonised by those they sought to colonise. I'd worry more about rising religiosity in the west, economic decline and overbearing regulations and "safety" more than some muslim.

2891. Town moves against Islamic school

Comment #185014 by Goldy on May 26, 2008 at 5:12 pm

I can't believe I spent a good portion of my day defending islam, which I can't stand. Who was it that said (paraphrasing) What makes a democracy strong is defending the minority against the majority? Menken? bad paraphrasing at that.

The mental image I am getting is that one from Northern Ireland of protestants screaming at catholic children. Grown people showing total and utter hatred because of a doctrinal issue.
I somehow don't think this will be a North West Frontier madrassa, yet that is what people appear to fear. They think a school will islamicise the whole area, pubs will be shut, women burka clad and men forced to grow beards. Sad, in a way.

2892. Town moves against Islamic school

Comment #185010 by Goldy on May 26, 2008 at 5:01 pm

I understand that, but my point still stands.

Just playing with you ;-) I'll go and stand in the Pedant's Corner now....
Edit - but you are right - like tend to mix with like. Chinese live among themselves, Pashtun with Pashtun, Somali with Somali, etc, etc. I do believe the Bradford muslim population was relatively ethnically homogenous.
That, to me, isn't really a faith issue, more of a cultural comfort thing.
Works both ways - I dare say all the people complaining are of a certain ethnic type too...

2893. Town moves against Islamic school

Comment #185008 by Goldy on May 26, 2008 at 4:59 pm

To me, this sounds like a clear cut case of nimby-ism to me. I think the western media portrayal of muslims has worked well and got people all scared. Sure some muslims just don't like living the western life in the west - but then i can't really think of too many westerners having gone "all native" in the rest of the world....

2894. Town moves against Islamic school

Comment #185003 by Goldy on May 26, 2008 at 4:54 pm

when muslims move into an area they are of one ethnic descent, say Pakistani

And which ethnic group of Pakistan would you be referring to, Mordacious1? There are many - some not even muslim, or indeed following a middle eastern deity. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Ethnic_groups_in_Pakistan)

2895. Mail-boat record 'proves Darwin stole his original ideas from a Welsh scientist'

Comment #184967 by Goldy on May 26, 2008 at 3:03 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallace_Line
Darwin may have the "name", at least Wallace has a geographical line :-)

2896. Mail-boat record 'proves Darwin stole his original ideas from a Welsh scientist'

Comment #184705 by Goldy on May 26, 2008 at 2:42 am

Hah ha! Take that, Darwinists! I have always maintained my Wallacianism (after all it does so confuse Cretinists and IDiots :-D)
Raiko

Also, Darwinian and Darwinist sound better whan Wallacian and Wallacist. ;)

Them's fighting words there! Just you wait while we evolve... ;-P

2897. What is science for?

Comment #184322 by Goldy on May 24, 2008 at 3:13 pm

Interesting debates about the Holocaust. I guess if enough people keep denying it, it'll be forgotten until the next one.
Thing is, I cannot be convinced of the huge Zionist conspiracy that led to this. Does this mean the Armenians are also wrong? Or their marketing people are compromised? Hmmm....
Another thing I can't get is why, after burning and pre-industrial progroms in the east, the treatment of undesireables by floating them away in Narrenschiff, from "Kauf nicht bei Juden" and Kristallnacht (forgive me spelling!), from the experienced gained by the total unconcern world wide of Armenians in Ottoman provinces in Iraq, Syria, etc, how can one think the Nazis couldn't do what they did? Since then, we've seen killing fields in Cambodia, we've seen ethnic violence in China, in the Middle East, in Africa, shit, even in Europe again...why do people think it was not possible?

2898. Richard Dawkins lecture at ASU's Tempe Campus

Comment #183819 by Goldy on May 22, 2008 at 11:21 pm

But to say that everyone has thier beliefs or faith because they were born into it--is simply not true at all.

So true. No baby I have ever met knew of any god. All were born athiests.

2899. Sun's properties not 'fine-tuned' for life

Comment #183761 by Goldy on May 22, 2008 at 6:22 pm

Teratornis

I'm more inclined to trust an oilman like T. Boone Pickens, Jr. who claims world oil production has peaked and will never again exceed the 2005 maximum of 85 million barrels per day, let alone do we have any realistic chance of seeing the EIA/IEA's prediction of 30% production growth over the next decade or two.

You may like this article. The Have Your Say section is good for a few laughs too :-)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/oil-supplies-running-on-empty-832874.html

2900. 16% of US science teachers are creationists

Comment #183760 by Goldy on May 22, 2008 at 6:15 pm

V'ger: "I wouldn't want my kids taught by a creationist because I equate that viewpoint with a lack of intelligence." to paraphrase. Sounds similar to "I wouldn't want my kids taught by negros because they just aren't as smart." or "I wouldn't want my kids taught by gays because they, simply by existing, espouse a lifestyle I find immoral."

not really. One is a choice, the others are not. You chose to believe, you don't chose your sex, sexuality or race.