251. Six Reasons to be an Atheist

Comment #108171 by Vinelectric on January 6, 2008 at 6:59 am

wow Vinelectric, that was awesome.

Crap,robotaholic, that was disappointing..!

Godlessheathen, to confirm your conclusions, my intention was to challenge theists who believe all natural phoenomena are under the control of a deity. Maybe I should talk about suffering rather than 'evil'.

252. Six Reasons to be an Atheist

Comment #108117 by Vinelectric on January 6, 2008 at 3:55 am

Godlessheathen and robotaholic

Some forms of evil may be subjective but one visit to your local hospice or cancer unit should convince you that evil is too manifest in this world for the theodicist to ignore.

253. Six Reasons to be an Atheist

Comment #108111 by Vinelectric on January 6, 2008 at 3:40 am

The monotheisms teach that the purpose of life is:

1. To worship a god who doesn't really need it.
2. A "test of faith" although the creator knows how it is goin to end anyway ...or...
3. To grow in virtue i.e God is either unwilling or unable to create morally "mature" beings.

I remember being so disgusted by such claims I decided it was irresponsible to bring children into the world to entertain this god!

254. Sam Harris debate with Rabbi David Wolpe

Comment #107903 by Vinelectric on January 5, 2008 at 2:54 pm

krisking

There is indeed a lot of obscurantism in modern Christianity and Judaism.

255. Sam Harris debate with Rabbi David Wolpe

Comment #107896 by Vinelectric on January 5, 2008 at 2:50 pm

He'sAVeryNaughtyBoy

I've dug up my Hebrew bible with the Rashi commentary. The whole Earth was flooded, at least according to the Jewish tradition. So yes it was 100% irrespective of what krisking is up to!

256. Sam Harris debate with Rabbi David Wolpe

Comment #107881 by Vinelectric on January 5, 2008 at 2:37 pm

True ,krisking.
Edit: I'm referring to your statement on the indigenous Americans.

257. Sam Harris debate with Rabbi David Wolpe

Comment #107869 by Vinelectric on January 5, 2008 at 2:25 pm

Secularist

The problem is that some Muslims don't recognize in Israel right to exist and because of religious reason and not any occupation or something like that.

That is true but as you know the West bank is littered with relgious settlers that have immigrated to Israel from all around the globe for this specific purpose.

But even without a religious context I don't see how it is acceptable that thousands (possibly 2 million) Arabs were displaced to allow the Israelis to establish a country in a land they ruled around two millenia earlier.

258. Sam Harris debate with Rabbi David Wolpe

Comment #107767 by Vinelectric on January 5, 2008 at 9:03 am

Rabbi Dunlope

The challenge of religion is to transcend the 'other'..

I wouldn't say this of Judaism. They're not big on converts, aren't they?

Overall this is one of the best debates posted on the website.

259. Moderates Storm The Religious Battlefield

Comment #106282 by Vinelectric on January 2, 2008 at 3:50 pm

al-rawandi

This is off topic but I've just read the Wikipedia entry on Ibn al rawandi. What a shock! Never heard of him before and never thought anyone dared to challenge religion as a source of morality back then. Thanks.

260. A War On Science

Comment #105573 by Vinelectric on January 1, 2008 at 4:36 am

Thanks Steve
Enjoy the cool soggy afternoon!

261. A War On Science

Comment #105569 by Vinelectric on January 1, 2008 at 4:12 am

shane McKee

I agree but I can't put a finger on where I went wrong on this one. A bacterial flagellum offers an extra survival advantage but a biochemical process is essential for life. One faulty component in a metabolic pathway results in a disabling condition (e.g Lesch-Nyhan syndrome) or limits life expectancy to early childhood (e.g Tay Sach's disease). Without that no evolution takes place.

mdowe
I'm not joking. You either know the answer or you don't!!

Seriously, how do you support life with half a Krebs cycle? If it turns out that bacteria/protozoa have simpler versions of these cycles I'd be relieved. Otherwise I'd have to ask those interested in Abiogenesis.

Anyone out there trained in Biochemistry? please help...

262. A War On Science

Comment #105427 by Vinelectric on December 31, 2007 at 2:24 pm

Where would I read on the evolution of biochemical processes (if such a branch of science exists)?

As far as I can remember any break in the chain of glycogen, fatty acid metabolism or the electron transport chain would lead to a fatal "inborn error of metabolism".

Are such processes not irreducibly complex?

Maybe that would be the next target for creatonists. I wouldn't really mind. The evolutionary answers to Behe's challenges have strengthened my understanding of evolution and settled doubts within my heart. I don't agree with RD that the trial was a waste of time or a set back but rather a very educational excercise (if it weren't intentionally misleading).

You know what I mean!

Happy new year.

263. Submission, 'Part 1'

Comment #105287 by Vinelectric on December 31, 2007 at 5:03 am

Goatboy36

You're barking mad! Why would I think you could possibly be obsessed with me? I meant your obsession with Islam. You rarely post anywhere else and you go into hiding. As soon as something comes up on Islalm you're all over the place being all agitated and asking for trouble!

If you weren't asking for trouble why do you demand I comment on the film? Did we not have a bitter row over that a wee while ago? Did you not say to me once: "the film was shown once on Dutch TV, get over it" ?

But you can't get enough of your obsessions don't you?

264. Submission, 'Part 1'

Comment #105252 by Vinelectric on December 31, 2007 at 2:14 am

Goatboy36

I see this has awaken your obsessions!

265. The Pagan Christ

Comment #104008 by Vinelectric on December 27, 2007 at 2:27 pm

From the bbc link kirsking supplied:

The former Archbishop of Canterbury, the late Robert Runcie once wrote, "It would have been better for the moral health of Christianity if the blame had stayed with Pilate."

Blame for what? The main reason the god came down to earth was to die exactly the way he did! Did he not? Pilate must have been programmed to sanction the execution to fullfill god's plan.

Out of the three big monotheisms, Christian theology comes across as the most bizarre. Don't you think?

266. The Pagan Christ

Comment #103582 by Vinelectric on December 26, 2007 at 8:14 am

al-rawandi

actually, there was only one instance of forced conversion in Islamic history..

..but once you're in, there's no getting out..!

Edit: Practically speeaking, being born to a muslim family is a forced conversion.

267. 2 fleas for the Christmas week

Comment #103382 by Vinelectric on December 25, 2007 at 10:44 am

ADH

Another flea for you to swipe at without a second thought

Quite rightly. Everyone's had a go at TGD. Time for some original material from the theistic camp. Let them rock the shelves with their gems.

268. THE FOUR HORSEMEN - Available Now on DVD!

Comment #103201 by Vinelectric on December 24, 2007 at 1:18 pm

It would be incompatible to take the rules from system A and apply on system B.

Even though this is entirely appropriate you can not always exclude scientists from challenging your worldviews. There are many situations which demand that moral choices are made on a combination of rational assumptions and demonstrable scientific evidence (e.g whether a foetus is a sentient being or whether homosexuality is an illness..etc).

269. THE FOUR HORSEMEN - Available Now on DVD!

Comment #103005 by Vinelectric on December 24, 2007 at 7:11 am

A treasure !

RD you should get this aired.


The fact that these men, and many unsung heroes behind them, have chosen to contribute to the protection of a brave woman through this civilized and enlightening discussion is truly humbling. World's apart from those who support their beliefs by shouthing "death to this" and "behead that".

270. The Pagan Christ

Comment #102008 by Vinelectric on December 21, 2007 at 11:37 am

Harpur claims 180 similarities between the stories of the Egyptian Horus and Jesus of Nazareth.

If that were true then further discussion about the historicity of the Christ would be entirely inappropriate !!

271. Al Qaeda: We're open to questions

Comment #101417 by Vinelectric on December 20, 2007 at 10:38 am

al-rawandi

You argue that suicide missions are not essentially religious.

However present day suicide bombers are predominantly muslim. Generally speaking the moderate/secular muslim countries e.g Tunisia, Syria or even Turkey don't seem to produce as many suicide bombers as those countries where the religious sentiment is stronger (e.g Saudi).

I know where you're coming from, suicide is prohibited in Islam, but maybe there is a direct link between religion and suicide missions that you/me are not fully aware off.

272. Al Qaeda: We're open to questions

Comment #101408 by Vinelectric on December 20, 2007 at 10:17 am

Numerous videos sent by Al-Qaeda to the Jazeera headquarters and a website that is continuously updated yet no one can track their whereabouts?

An 18 year old hacker is tracked down to his home in New Zealand. Yet this sahab site is non traceable...!

I'm not buying into the silly conspiracy theories but how do you explain that?

273. CBC News: Sunday - Richard Dawkins

Comment #100281 by Vinelectric on December 18, 2007 at 12:57 pm

steve99

Come on Steve, I'm sure you watch J Paxman and "Hard Talk" on the BBC.

You can be as forthcoming and as tough as you want to without resorting to misinformation and distracting interjections like Solomon did.

274. CBC News: Sunday - Richard Dawkins

Comment #100272 by Vinelectric on December 18, 2007 at 12:52 pm

marshall1

I find it interesting that everyone here is either trashing the interviewer (your normal reaction to disagreement)

Do you not see any other reason for criticizing the man? Misinformation, absent mindedness, unprofessional gesturing....etc

I think it's a miracle that all this escaped your attention and that you could see no reason for the antipathy other than mere disagreement.

By the way, any religion that thrives on emotional blackmailing and exploitation of the fear of death is likely to "change the lives of billions". Jainism, Buddhism, the teaching of Confuscius are all sweet and meaningful. If they'd included the sick psychological twist of eternal torture as vividly as your texts they may have turned out as successful and as infectious as Christianity has.

275. CBC News: Sunday - Richard Dawkins

Comment #100178 by Vinelectric on December 18, 2007 at 10:55 am

On Stalin and Hitler

I wonder why RD doesn't remind people of the success of the present day Western European secular cultures like Harris does.

276. CBC News: Sunday - Richard Dawkins

Comment #100174 by Vinelectric on December 18, 2007 at 10:50 am

Aequitas12345

Some of his comments like the following show immense arrogance and lack of understanding:...

Thank you very much, that is exactly what I wanted to say. He clearly couldn't follow Dawkins' clear and well phrased arguements in Part II at all. Moreover, how many decent networks host shows where interviewers shake their heads at the visiting scholars?

Someone earlier commented: "Hannity/O'Reilly in the making"

Yes.

Truly awfull.

277. Richard Dawkins on 'Have Your Say'

Comment #95951 by Vinelectric on December 9, 2007 at 2:23 pm

Just as the World War 2 illustrates the dangers of steel!

Yeah. There was nothing more to it, really.

278. Richard Dawkins on 'Have Your Say'

Comment #95908 by Vinelectric on December 9, 2007 at 12:54 pm

True , Mark Till, that was pure lack of discipline.

279. Richard Dawkins on 'Have Your Say'

Comment #95905 by Vinelectric on December 9, 2007 at 12:49 pm

ADH

I don't know why this form of intimidation appeals to you or to anyone else.

I remember, as a child, feeling hopefull that I'd make it to heaven and speak to God personally about all my troubles (as is promised in Islam). I would've made it clear how disappointed and resentfull I was of his petty little evil masterpiece.

The theistic god sounds pretty capable but unworthy of respect, don't you think?

280. Islam's Silent Moderates

Comment #95898 by Vinelectric on December 9, 2007 at 12:35 pm

Flossie

I think her writings have matured to the point where more people (including practising muslims) are likely to start to pay attention and allow her to exert a much needed influence in the muslim community and the middle east. There were too many unnerving distractions that turned people away from her previous work e.g the outlandish and distastefull "Submission" film and her unfair labelling of muslim immigrants to Western countries as ungrateful and arrogant people who have no respect towards those who are giving them shelter.

That's all changed now and I am hopefull that people will now start to focus more on her criticism of Muhammad's dogma.

281. Richard Dawkins on 'Have Your Say'

Comment #95889 by Vinelectric on December 9, 2007 at 12:20 pm

ADH

What about the effect of Jesus Christ's concept of the eternal fire and other forms of emotional blackmailing have had on the millions of people who trust and believe in him?

Please add to your list (greed and materialism) that form of twisted psychology that the world needs to be rid off.

282. Richard Dawkins on 'Have Your Say'

Comment #95885 by Vinelectric on December 9, 2007 at 12:14 pm

Many of the questioners seem extremely simple-minded and several of them are just rambling and babbling nonsense.

Towards the end RD is asked whether he felt more pessimistic and he seeks to clarify the question "more pessimistic than the start of this program?.."

!!!

283. Richard Dawkins on 'Have Your Say'

Comment #95875 by Vinelectric on December 9, 2007 at 11:43 am

RD

You can recommend Brian Greene's "The fabric of the Cosmos" for a reader friendly discussion on Quantum effects. Quantum weirdness does not and can not apply to the macro-world. You can't invoke these effects in a discussion on religious type miracles at all.

284. Islam's Silent Moderates

Comment #95506 by Vinelectric on December 8, 2007 at 1:17 pm

Where are the muslim moderates?

I suspect that the answer will fall on deaf ears but the simple explanation is that any call for reformation is likely to be instantly labelled as a political allegiance to the West. A betrayal of sort. The sense of bitterness stemming from the Palestenian refugee problem, Iraq invasion..etc poisons the air and suffocates any attempt to indulge in healthy self criticism.

The curse of blind and irrational nationalism has too much of a grip on the middle east to allow the moderate voices to emerge any time soon.

Don't count on the modeartes at times like these. The only hope for an enlightment is to engender a climate of political stability in the Middle East. I don't know how this will be achieved (continuing American sponsorship of mideast summits always welcome). I suppose that will have something to do with a well planned financial investment in the region. Add to that, well planned interventions, unlike the idiotic involvement of the likes of the Eritreans/Ethiopians in a country that is least likely to appreciate their presence!

Anyways if that succeeds to an extent where the rigorous system of postgraduate scholarships, American/British schools and various forms of benign infiltration in the 70s and 80s then we may be able to restart an educational reformation culminating in an enlightment.

The middle easterns are just too "shut out" from the real world than most Westernes seem to realise. There lies the key to deliverance, I think.

285. Daniel Dennett Debates Dinesh D'Souza

Comment #93734 by Vinelectric on December 4, 2007 at 3:49 am

I haven't read the atheist manifesto that D'Souza was referring to.

Does it say: kill the believers?

On the other hand religious texts are either suggetive of such an approach or promise torture worse than death itself specifically for the crime of unbelief.

286. Daniel Dennett Debates Dinesh D'Souza

Comment #93733 by Vinelectric on December 4, 2007 at 3:49 am

I haven't read the atheist manifesto that D'Souza was referring to.

Does it say: kill the believers?

On the other hand religious texts are either suggetive of such an approach or promise torture worse than death itself specifically for the crime of unbelief.

287. Daniel Dennett Debates Dinesh D'Souza

Comment #92932 by Vinelectric on December 1, 2007 at 7:24 pm

Has anyone else noticed the unlettered cheek saying "this what happens when you take the Biologist out of the lab" ?

The mand has the audacity then to talk about the electro-weak force and what not...!!!

D'Souza is all over the place and Dennett is simply too refined to handle his flight of ideas effectively. Barker is the man for the job judging by his Barker-Corrier vs Corey-Hassanain debate on youtube.

I can picture Barker in the April 08 debate. D'Souza repeats his "Aquinas was right about the begining of time". Barker rises reluctantly to the podium with a condescending look of disgust on his face and replies:

"You see Dinesh, if you throw a lot of spaghetti on the wall, some of it is bound to stick" !!!

I'll laugh out loud again like I did in that debate of 2004 !!

288. Daniel Dennett Debates Dinesh D'Souza

Comment #92779 by Vinelectric on December 1, 2007 at 12:54 pm

steve

The rarity of life in our own solar system seems to suggest that life managed to come about inspite of the physical constants. They maybe fine tuned for the universe to exist in the way it does but this universe seems to do a bad job in supporting life as we know it.

289. Debate: Ayaan Hirsi Ali vs Ed Husain

Comment #92680 by Vinelectric on December 1, 2007 at 7:56 am

Janus

You're just in the mood for a confrontation aren't you? Here you've just heard two people (Husain and Hirsi Ali), who know the culture inside out, coming forward with what they pereceive as practical solutions.

Guess what, one of them wants to defend Islam and the other wants to defend the Muslims. Isn't that what was said in this debate? Not even Hirsi Ali is as agitated as you are. These two know something about the practicalities of delivering the message to the muslim crowd. Here you are antagonising the next person not to support your ill conceived and ill defined crackdown on muslim ideology. There are a billion or so that subscribe to the faith. Personally I think Hirsi Ali's approach suits muslims in the West but Husain's 'watering down' approach is the only realistic option for the middle east.

I don't want you to shut up but I do wish you'd stop your rampage.

290. Debate: Ayaan Hirsi Ali vs Ed Husain

Comment #92678 by Vinelectric on December 1, 2007 at 7:38 am

keith

Bear in mind writing/upload delay! My comment does not follow logically from Zamboro because he posted it while I was trying to write a response to Fanusi.

In a way I feel it is dishonest of me to defend the Quranic text as the views of the book on treating apostates in the afterlife was the last steel beam that broke this poor camel's back!

Anyways the reason I say that none of the verses talk about killing apostates is because:

Quran 60:8


Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.

It is frustrating but necessary to seek an explanation of the context of those offensive verses. None of them were laid down as general rules but rather to incite the muslim army at different encounters with the Meccans during Muhammad's life. That legion was referred to as the 'disbelievers'. If you read the history the man and his followers endured years of prosecution before taking up arm. No one can tell you for sure that Muhammad wasn't referring to apostates/infidels in general untill you stop taking those verses in isolation and start to look around for other clues to help you make sense of them.


So in summary, the verse I've just quoted explains that muhammad's beef was with the group that took arms against him (apostates in their ranks). None of the verses preches murdering apostates just because of their apostasy. On the other hand the book is clear about eternal torture for apostates/infidels in general so we're back to square one with this discussion I'm afraid!

291. Debate: Ayaan Hirsi Ali vs Ed Husain

Comment #92578 by Vinelectric on November 30, 2007 at 7:43 pm

See, Zamboro

Tell me what is the use of saying things like that?

Janus
..most likely because you're aware at some level that telling us what you really think would make you look like an idiot.

Too sleepy, Good night..

292. Debate: Ayaan Hirsi Ali vs Ed Husain

Comment #92576 by Vinelectric on November 30, 2007 at 7:40 pm

Zamboro

You may not have encountered me before but I've only renounced the faith recently and still have strong ties with the Muslim community.

It is from the perspective of that community (that I care about and hope will change for the better) that I placed my remarks. Generally speaking you won't win the hearts of any group of people by being readily offensive.

293. Debate: Ayaan Hirsi Ali vs Ed Husain

Comment #92570 by Vinelectric on November 30, 2007 at 7:31 pm

Janus

The same approach that drove myself, Ed Husain and Ayaan to rethink. Discussion and public debate. As Ed Husain points out, that seems to work even within Islam itself. Common sense. If those who have influenced him to change his course had been more successful we may have been living in a world where no one but the muslims cares what Islam is.

Your fired up antagonism is most unwelcome.

294. Debate: Ayaan Hirsi Ali vs Ed Husain

Comment #92562 by Vinelectric on November 30, 2007 at 7:15 pm

Janus you simply need a approach that is going to work. The more you understand the Middle Eastern mindset the more you'll come to know where Bonzai is coming from.

295. Debate: Ayaan Hirsi Ali vs Ed Husain

Comment #92560 by Vinelectric on November 30, 2007 at 7:12 pm

Just to clarify and add to the Islam versus Kuffar/apostates relations debate:

Quran 60:8


Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.

296. Debate: Ayaan Hirsi Ali vs Ed Husain

Comment #92553 by Vinelectric on November 30, 2007 at 6:42 pm

Zamboro

Remember that the "heads of disbelief" in those verses refers specifically to the Meccan groups who have openly delcared war against Muhammad even at his early stages when he was only a social reformer calling for the emancipation of slaves and helping the needy.


As I say, what is the use of arguing the Quran does not condone killing apostates in general if it confirms that god will grill them forever anyway! If you're a believer this comes across as even worse than murder!

297. Debate: Ayaan Hirsi Ali vs Ed Husain

Comment #92550 by Vinelectric on November 30, 2007 at 6:38 pm

For once I agree with Fanusi.

Technically speaking that verse or indeed any other verse doesn't say anything about killing apostates. What it does say is that they will burn in hell forever. Worse still their good deeds will not avail them.

That is immoral.

Ayaan is right in principle but because of the distrust and hostility of the Middle Eastern people towards the West, Ed Husain is more likely to find an audience than Ayaan. His method may be more effective on the long term.

298. Debate: Ayaan Hirsi Ali vs Ed Husain

Comment #92545 by Vinelectric on November 30, 2007 at 6:22 pm

Spinoza It's a shame your friend is that corrupted. Please don't take this to be the norm.

299. Interview with Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Comment #92523 by Vinelectric on November 30, 2007 at 5:28 pm

Life in Saudi Arabia for women is devoid of meaning or hope. The problem is that many are so cut off from the world that they don't seem to know any better and accept the situation as the norm.

I was going to say that such misery is shocking even by the standards of West and North Africa's muslim states. That is definitely true and for this reaon the local Wahabbi-Sufi tensions are high on such topics as women's rights. However I can see that, from an Islamic point of view, the Wahabbis are closer to the real thing than are the progressive and open minded Sufis.

Depressing, isn't it?

300. Why debate dogma?

Comment #92167 by Vinelectric on November 30, 2007 at 2:07 am

Phil rimmer


Hitchens does that really well in his God is not Great. Very effective and not vulgar. You can deconstruct religious beliefs through polite discourse. Of course I'm not talking about Abu Hamza and the like.