251. Richard Dawkins - Science and the New Atheism

Comment #95394 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 8, 2007 at 9:11 am

18. Comment #95380 by coretemprising on December 8, 2007 at 7:58 am

I think I'll go back to just reading the articles. Having ADH here is like having an UNINVITED annoying stranger in your house who's intent to challenge and make wrong everything you say.

I'm bemused by this attitude I have to say. I've seen some fairly deranged theists, and ADH just doesn't qualify. Are you threatened by alternate points of view? If not then whats the problem?

No one is forcing anyone here to participate or contribute, it's entirely voluntary. However, wouldn't it be sterile if the only people we ever spoke to where those that agreed with us?

252. Richard Dawkins - Science and the New Atheism

Comment #95342 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 8, 2007 at 3:44 am

Therefore canabalism, and killing a human being to satisfy whatever physical, territorial, surval or supremacy need, is actually no more abhorrent than sitting down to a turkey dinner.

That is, in a very real sense, quite correct. That is why the idea of eating dead relatives makes you and I feel physically ill, and yet there where humans doing that as little as a hundred years ago, who considered it not only perfectly reasonable behaviour, but sacred ritual. A common greeting among these people, considered especially flattering, was "I eat you.".

Morality is simply what culture says it is, what we collectivley agree. The bedrock which you are desperate to find, does exist, but it is not provided by "God", but by the evolutionary advantageous impulse to protect, love and do good to kin. Most readily summed up by "Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you.". Sometimes, that means "Eat me when I've died.". The trick will be to extend that golden rule to all humans equally, erasing the artificial barriers of race, religion and nationality. The good news is we seem to be stumbling along the right track, and may even make it:-)

However, what now seems certain, is that we don't benefit from the contradictory 10th hand hearsay of a very nasty God, filtered through notoriously unreliable acolytes, telling us what is right or wrong. That simply breeds unjustified pious certainity and rage, as evidenced by the entire span of religious history to the present day. It also puts Teddy bears and teachers at terribly risk.

It seems to me that 6,000 years of "revelation", has simply led to the same kind of manipulative assholes (albeit with different headgear) lying and killing for basically the same bad reasons.

Yet, people in simple dialouge with each other, rejecting anything as especially sacred do a far better job of reaching rational conclusions, conclusions that do much better justice to the spirit of the golden rule, than religion EVER has.

So lets dump all the holy books and do that. Talk, argue, consult and come to agreement.

253. Mitt Romney's Faith In America address (as prepared for delivery)

Comment #95028 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 7, 2007 at 7:34 am

I'm not sure which is more obnoxious: the god delusion or the america delusion.

Its all part of the same complex of delusion.
Nationalism, Racism and Religion. America is unlucky enough to have been infected with two of these ideological viruses, the nationalism and the religion. They seem to have recovered from the racism though, so thats good.

Poor bastards.

254. Colouring book warns kids of pedophile priests

Comment #94977 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 7, 2007 at 5:09 am

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2007/12/marine_marine_chaplain_071205/

Wild.

255. Let us kill all the teddy bears

Comment #94968 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 7, 2007 at 4:32 am

12. Comment #94964 by Conrad on December 7, 2007 at 4:16 am
The reaction from those in a free land and blunted by western democracy, should not be held as the prime example of muslim belief nor moderation.

Well lets face it, if you are looking to Saudi Arabia or the Sudan for moderates you are going to find the going tough:-)

Besides, the more hysterical islamophobes, bang on relentlessly about how the EU is on the brink of a cultural melt down which will usher in an era of Islamic totalitarianism. It's utter nonsense of course, and the modestly positive reaction of British muslims in the Teddy Bear incident underscores that.

Certainly there are crazy fuckwits out there, and they are a significant minority of the islamic world. However, there is also Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia and millions of moderate European and American muslims to consider.

I am sick of the one sided evil, deranged, borg muslims that are presented as the Alpha and Omega of the muslim world, there is another picture. We should encourage these people, not drive them into the arms of the lunatics.

However, I too have renamed a cuddly toy Mohammed. Wouldn't want to be left out:-)

256. Let us kill all the teddy bears

Comment #94954 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 7, 2007 at 3:41 am

2. Comment #94884 by Nick Good on December 7, 2007 at 12:48 am

Then I remember. I remember the remaining 1.2 billion Muslims of the world who are also reading about the Great Teddy Bear Blasphemy of 2007 and going oh holy hell no, please, Allah no, not this again, not these inbred fundamentalist jackals making us all look so horribly bad, and why does the media insist on showing such a harsh, fragmented picture of a generally peaceful (albeit overly militant) faith and is there really nothing we can do?

I think this is as good an example of wishful thinking as I've seen in a while!

Really Nick. I know its been a few days, but try and cast your mind back. What was the British muslim reaction? Who actually got up off their physical asses, dragged themselves to Sudan to calm these lunatics down, and get the lady in question back to civilisation? What are these people but moderates?

By all means point out the lunacy where deserved (a target rich environment in this instance!!), but at least have the graciousness and sense of shared humanity to recognise when people have made some progress.

The kind of selective memory, and denial you appear (to me at least) to be exhibiting, mere days after the events in question, troubles me deeply.

If we crank up the satire, and cut down on the "they are the BORG!!!" kind of talk, we will get there. The British Reaction to the Teddy Bear Fatwa is a clear step in the right direction.

257. Atheism's Wrong Turn

Comment #94761 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 6, 2007 at 1:30 pm

98. Comment #94521 by stevencarrwork on December 5, 2007 at 10:56 pm
I've named my teddy bear 'Dswkins'.

Cam somebody give me some advice on how to hide from the New Atheists who will crush me for my insult to their prophet of Atheism?

Too late infidel scum! Even as we speak, the wing'd legions of atheism are speeding silently toward your lair. Like the shadows of night, hearts darker than the singularity at the centre of the galaxy, they come to extinguish you AND your miserable furry companion, for .... your .... crimes.

258. Nurses Told to Turn Muslims' Beds to Mecca

Comment #94725 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 6, 2007 at 10:51 am

But we put the full stop earlier in that sentence than you do, Abdullah. There is no god. Full stop. Even if there WERE a god, Allah is only one of thousands of allegedly supernatural entities competing for our allegiance. There is no more reason to give credence to him than to any of the others.

Nice post NB, but I would modify this slightly. Although Allah is merely one mythical construct in a blizzard of mutually exclusive religious noise, it is unquestionably one of the most vile and objectionable in the whole pantheon. Even were Allah real, I would never "worship" such a grotesque tyrant, rather I would do everything in my power to tear it down.

Luckily it self evident nonsense, so we just have people to contend with. Though how they can divest themselves so completely of self respect, and debase themselves with a hideous concept like Allah is startling indeed. Someone should write a paper. Perhaps Dan Dennett already did?

259. Banishing the Green-Eyed Monster

Comment #94720 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 6, 2007 at 10:34 am

439. Comment #94714 by Louise on December 6, 2007 at 10:17 am
Re: comment 436

"If we don't share our passions with our children, how will they learn to be passionate?"

Thats all well an good, if your passions do no harm or actively help others, but what if your parents have a penchant for holding up liquor stores?

Society makes laws, to which we are all expected to adhere. These laws change over time, and are in constant flux, as is the body of people a given person might consider "society". It used to be ok to beat your wife, and your children.

It used to make sense to "serve your country" by running headlong into machine guns.

Being a homosexual or an atheist used to be punishable by death.

The bad news is, all of the above still applies somewhere. Who is to say they are "wrong", if not us? Likewise this religious indoctrination crap.

260. Chimps beat humans in memory test

Comment #94021 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 4, 2007 at 3:35 pm

46. Comment #93987 by ADH on December 4, 2007 at 2:27 pm
So can computers perform cognitive tasks, and they are getting better and better to the point were they will conceivably soon be able to programme indescribably more complex software without any human intervention. That does not make computers human, and neiher will they ever be.

I think you are missing the point. I'm not claiming chimps are human, merely pointing out that almost anything a human can do, an animal can also do. The path from unicellular organism is not merely mapped out in genetics and physiology, but in cognition too. This knocks the whole made in Gods image somewhat on the head, no?



There is more to the human mind than cognition. It is not cognition that distinguishes us from animals or computers. It is (among other things) free choice, including moral choice.

Is there? You know this for certain? Are you unaware of the detailed recent research documenting extensive examples of altruism, and moral behaviour in dolphins, primates and other mammals?

The long held assumption that morality, behaviour modified by group rules, is unique to humans is simply wrong. Food for thought.

261. Chimps beat humans in memory test

Comment #93985 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 4, 2007 at 2:24 pm

43. Comment #93979 by ADH on December 4, 2007 at 2:17 pm

I don't see what all the fuss is about. Bats can see in the dark, and we can't. Dolphins can echoloct, and we can't, dogs can ind their way home over miles of uncharted territory, and we can't. So what's the big deal?

This begins to stray into the realm of cognition. We've known since the dawn of time that many animals are stronger, faster, have keener eyes and a better sense of smell than humans.

Until very recently it has been assumed that conciousness, altruism and feats of memory have been the realm of humans alone. Basically it further blurs the lines between humans and animals, in principle there is nothing unique about us, everything that makes us human is present to a lesser, and in this case greater degree, in other animals. Food for thought.

262. Banishing the Green-Eyed Monster

Comment #93980 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 4, 2007 at 2:19 pm

Are you referring to this? :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armin_Meiwes

Erm ... no actually. I was vaguely referencing cannibal practices in the south pacific. I think. Good to know that no matter what crazy shit I can think up, someone somewhere will actually have done it.

Ah, humanity:-)

263. Fear of censure deflects The Golden Compas

Comment #93968 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 4, 2007 at 1:58 pm

I'm glad to see we don't just have philistines ... oh wait, we are the philistines!

264. Highway to hysteria

Comment #93940 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 4, 2007 at 1:30 pm

What is truly chilling is that this is exactly the same nonsense I grew up with. In those days of course, bar codes were Satans method of choice to mark you with the number of the beast, today it's rfid tags.

Incredible, sobering and down right humiliating to think I was one of these people.

265. Fear of censure deflects The Golden Compas

Comment #93850 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 4, 2007 at 10:07 am

Hmmmmm ... no pattern emerging. I thought we might have seen "been an atheist all my life" correlating with "hated his dark materials". Then I was going to say something about soulless materialists ... alas the data just isn't there.

Damn this being rational!!!

266. Fear of censure deflects The Golden Compas

Comment #93843 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 4, 2007 at 9:46 am

But do I at least get to keep the teddy bear?

Now that was really funny:-)

267. Fear of censure deflects The Golden Compas

Comment #93833 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 4, 2007 at 9:24 am

How dare you say Lyra is vile! You deserve 40 lashes or a prison term. If I ever see you in the street I will behead you myself!

Oh come on!! Lets not loose perspective. This is clearly not a beheading offence. Maybe 20 lashes.

268. Fear of censure deflects The Golden Compas

Comment #93829 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 4, 2007 at 9:15 am

It is the worst writing I have experienced since the E E 'doc' Smith Lensman series.

Oh GOD. What a blast from the past. I loved those, when I was about 12. From this remove, they are truly appalling though.

269. Fear of censure deflects The Golden Compas

Comment #93821 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 4, 2007 at 9:05 am

I think her writing is always good. Is it the ideas or the execution you didn't get on with? I still rate the 'Cyteen' trilogy (or one book in the UK edition) as comparable to 'LOTR' for its ideas, breadth, writing and erudition.

I actually couldn't say, it's been so long since I tried reading one of her books, I just have a vague sense of "not my thing".

Sounds like I should have enjoyed them though, I like the epic sweep. For scifi that meets that criteria ... anyone read red, blue and green mars by Kim Stanley Robinson?

270. Fear of censure deflects The Golden Compas

Comment #93811 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 4, 2007 at 8:43 am

40. Comment #93805 by AllanW on December 4, 2007 at 8:32 am

What about Asimov, Clarke and Farmer? I never liked Cherryh, and I tolerated Aldiss and Dick. Heinlein however, I was fond of. Still speechless:-)

271. Fear of censure deflects The Golden Compas

Comment #93808 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 4, 2007 at 8:40 am

36. Comment #93800 by GoatBoy36 on December 4, 2007 at 8:25 am

This is very interesting. Here is a little questionnaire.

On a scale of 1 to 5 rate your agreement with the following statements. Where 1 is totally agree, and 5 totally disagree.

I loved "his dark materials".
I have almost always considered myself an atheist.
I used to be an enthusiastic fundamentalist theist.

I'm a 1, 5 and a 2. I have a theory about this, lets see if we can get some data together.

272. Fear of censure deflects The Golden Compas

Comment #93804 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 4, 2007 at 8:30 am

37. Comment #93801 by steve99 on December 4, 2007 at 8:25 am

Phew:-) I was sweating there for a bit ... pushing the envelope I thought ... thats probably just the repressed Christian talking though:-)

273. Fear of censure deflects The Golden Compas

Comment #93803 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 4, 2007 at 8:28 am

30. Comment #93792 by AllanW on December 4, 2007 at 8:16 am
LOL Brian :)

I'd like to think my dislike of the books was objective but I can't be sure.

This is what it comes down to really. Objectivity. It is interesting though to be able to view such diverse opinions dispassionatley, because the issue at hand really doesn't matter terribly.

274. Fear of censure deflects The Golden Compas

Comment #93798 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 4, 2007 at 8:23 am

Though, of course, once we'd done that we would have lost every last shred of credibility when declaring that atheism is not a religion!

Oh yeah .... good point. Nothwithstanding your inexcusable attitudes vis a vis Lyra, you're clearly not entirely insane. Hmm.

275. Fear of censure deflects The Golden Compas

Comment #93793 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 4, 2007 at 8:20 am

29. Comment #93791 by steve99 on December 4, 2007 at 8:16 am

Brian... how CAN you like the Harry Potter books - the writing and characterisation was terrible!!! Shame on you.

Oh REALLY? Well I'm not sure that I shall put up with lectures from someone with your ... "lifestyle". At least Harry Potter liked GIRLS. Hah! Take that.

erm, too much?

276. Fear of censure deflects The Golden Compas

Comment #93786 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 4, 2007 at 8:07 am

I'll not spend any more time in the presence of such atheists clearly traitors to the cause!!! Sniff.

;-)

seriously though I'm genuinely shocked at such visceral dislike, myself and my daughter were entranced by the books, and we can't wait for the film. It opens on Friday and we are THERE!

Mind you, we were similarly engaged in the Harry Potter series, but we also love Terry Pratchett. So there!

Lets hear some love though!!! Did anyone actually like the series? If passions ride high enough, maybe we can split the atheist community (again), this time on the basis of something genuinely trivial! Wouldn't that be fun?

277. Fear of censure deflects The Golden Compas

Comment #93772 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 4, 2007 at 7:37 am

12. Comment #93771 by Northern Bright on December 4, 2007 at 7:29 am
avatarI have only read Northern Lights, the first of the His Dark Materials trilogy, and I absolutely loathed it.

APOSTAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATE!!! How dare you challenge the great ones of atheism!!!

With that out of my system, let me just say .. wa, pa ... ? ... hngggg?.

Metaphysics has always fascinated human beings, and Pulman paints on the grandest canvas, and Lyra vile .... ga .... WHAT?

Alternate universes, heaven, hell, aliens, fistcuffs with God, impossible choices, death, resurrection, sacrifice. All the classic themes, did he leave anything out? Whats not to like? I'm utterly amazed that anyone would think Lyra vile .. I mean vile?? Wouldn't annoying suffice? Not that I agree even with that, but I could imagine it.

You must be a very bad person indeed. This is the only explanation.

278. Banishing the Green-Eyed Monster

Comment #93729 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 4, 2007 at 3:32 am

Oh dear ... lots of absolutes flying around here. At one time or another humans have eaten each other sometimes by mutual agreement, killed the terminally ill, had sex with children, had sex with animals, watched reality TV and agreed to beat whip and tie each other up. Frequently for fun. With the possible exception of reality TV, all of the above behaviour was legitimate and acceptable to someone, sometime.

I'm not suggesting that we all rush out and start engaging in all (or even any) of the above, but lets face it, conventional morality has been on the way out for quite sometime, and a much more flexible ethical system, with consent and agreement as its bedrock is gradually replacing it.

Potentially this means that two people can agree that one would like another to eat them after they die, and assuming dependents etc. are in agreement and no one is harmed (is being consenually eaten "harmed"?) who is to say they shouldn't do whatever mad (by the lights of others) thing they choose?

Really, we need to see things in a much broader context, because we are going to be forced to as exponential change continues to race around the planet.

279. Why Science Can't Save the Republican Party

Comment #93697 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 3, 2007 at 11:48 pm

I cannot imagine, how anyone espousing the views of arogop could possibly imagine that the republicans could be the vehicle to deliver those goals.

It seems an extreme form of self delusion, brought on by the "cheese or breadsticks" menu on offer in the US.

Proportional representation would go a long way to resolving the excruciating cognotive dissonace brought on by the republican/democrat offerings.

280. Interview with Christopher Hitchens

Comment #93693 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 3, 2007 at 11:35 pm

21. Comment #93689 by ADH on December 3, 2007 at 11:15 pm
"Keep thinking, but be warned, it could be the undoing of your faith:-)"

I will. And I could address exactly the same words to you! :) :)

You could, I suppose:-) My experience (so far at least) has been that the traffic tends to be one way. The specifics of ones faith fade away as they contradict life, experience, and reality. One makes constant efforts to crowbar the new wine of reality into the constricted old wineskins of faith, but eventually they burst.

One twists and turns trying to get religious detail to dovetail with the exponential flood of information being uncovered every day, and eventually the modestly intelligent is left with a choice, faith or reason. I chose to abandon the rationalisation, the apologetics and opt for reason.

Thinking deeply about the specific tenets of my faith was the fatal foot in the door, I can personally atest to Luthers injunction to "put out the eyes of reason". Alas, too late:-) Short of Jesus appearing directly to me (and perhaps not even then), it seems unlikely that I will ever pick up those threads again. However never say never, it just seems improbable:-)

This does a better job of explaining it :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7FXicdqnSA

281. Interview with Christopher Hitchens

Comment #93687 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 3, 2007 at 11:06 pm

18. Comment #93683 by ADH on December 3, 2007 at 10:51 pm

Yet on these forums I always get the impression that dissent is not welcome, theists have no business even listening in, let alone contributing here.

I'm not convinced this is uniformly the case. Certainly theists, get short shrift if they trot out the same tired carnards we've heard a million times, but many here are willing to listen to someone who is not duplicitous or disingenous, and engaging in a genuine spirit of intellectual exploration.

You strike me as someone we can talk to, and as an ex-theist I can certainly appreciate (and recognise) honest doubt. I must confess from time to time, the dishonest have infuriated me and I've gotten temporarily nasty and insulting. However, given my own decades long history of theism, and ministry I know that facile and cheap claims of "retardedness" do nothing to explain the religious experience.

Keep thinking, but be warned, it could be the undoing of your faith:-)

282. Evolution Debate Led to Ouster, Official Says

Comment #93680 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 3, 2007 at 10:43 pm

keeping up the pressure. Just posted this :

I note that Chris Comer has not yet been reinstated.

When do you plan to redress the ludicrous and laughable behaviour of the TEA's inhouse religious nuts?

283. Fear of Barbara Forrest

Comment #93679 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 3, 2007 at 10:43 pm

keeping up the pressure. Just posted this :

I note that Chris Comer has not yet been reinstated.

When do you plan to redress the ludicrous and laughable behaviour of the TEA's inhouse religious nuts?

284. Interview with Christopher Hitchens

Comment #93676 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 3, 2007 at 10:32 pm

Hey, that was the very epitome of mainstream. Is Joe pandering to the atheist lobby? Trying to snag all the best interviews? Brilliant if he is:-)

285. Atheism's Wrong Turn

Comment #93560 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 3, 2007 at 1:44 pm

But most interesting is that Professor Dennett himself has posted a rather scathing response.

Yeah I saw that. His response was great, but I was particularly inspired by the overwhelming push back the article generated from the atheist community.

Once again, a clear indication of the incalcuable value of a site like Dawkin.net. It really has begun to act as a hub to focus atheist annoyance, and frustration. Giving people (both atheists, and others) a sense of the significant body of people that are sick and tired of the absurdity that drives american politics.

Nice to see:-)

286. Atheism's Wrong Turn

Comment #93519 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 3, 2007 at 10:44 am

And one reason they should be allowed is that human beings need cultural foils to wrestle with, and to overcome or embrace for themselves.

This concept could surely be applied to anything generally considered abuse. It sounds a little like a sophisticated version of "what doesn't kill me, makes me stronger":-)

Not that I don't see your point, I really do, however I also see that in the ebb and flow of human attitudes the view I'm presenting could become mainstream, and what then?

There isn't a tidy demarcation between prosecuting parents (or spouses!!!) for physical abuse once considered quite trivial, and prosecuting them for psycological abuse only now being fully understood.

287. Atheism's Wrong Turn

Comment #93508 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 3, 2007 at 10:09 am

62. Comment #93494 by Bonzai on December 3, 2007 at 9:26 am

All good points. I'm certainly not suggesting a precipitous implementation of any such policies. These shifts tend to be gradual, 50 years ago hitting kids would have been quite common in most of Europe. In the mid 70's it was phased out in schools, and now in most European countries, disciplining children through hitting is very, very uncommon.

We are taking about shifts in attitude that will be generational, and I think they are already underway. I was brought up by religious people that told me all about hell, yet even as a christian I refused to tell my daughter something so horrible about which I didn't have clarity. Luckily she was born post my "fundi" phase.

Initially I'm pressing for Harris' conversational intolerance, and Dawkins raising of conciousness, but I'm clear that an end game would be to pass legislation preventing children from being exposed to indoctrination that has been empirically shown to be harmful.

It is I suppose possible that as the religious become a minority, that society may choose to prevent the exposure of children to the more toxic forms of religion. We are talking quite far in the future though, and the critical difference between this idea and a "despotic atheist dictatorship" is :

a) Adults should continue to be free to do as they please, be converted, convert others (assuming these are amenable to same) and preach the jolly old "gospel" to their hearts content, and anyone who'll listen.
b) Any such laws should be passed by the elected representatives of the people. Be that at local, regional or global level.

However, we shouldn't shy away from the conversation.

288. Daniel Dennett Debates Dinesh D'Souza

Comment #93504 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 3, 2007 at 9:56 am

Damn I found that annoying, and despite Dan starting off very well indeed, I felt he was floundering at the end. For all the reasons that so many others have articulated.

Defeating the hydra of ignorance, especially when presented with a convincing patina of knowledge is tough stuff.

Lets face it, this guy has taken our best shots and still come out looking good. Not because what he says makes any sense, but simply by virtue of his patter. Maddening.

289. Fear of Barbara Forrest

Comment #93498 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 3, 2007 at 9:35 am

no reply I'm afraid:-)

290. Atheism's Wrong Turn

Comment #93483 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 3, 2007 at 8:20 am

53. Comment #93436 by Santi Tafarella on December 3, 2007 at 6:41 am
Response to Comment #93408 by "brian coughlan worldcitizen"

Brian,
You rightly catch where my argument about state interference with child-raising breaks down (in cases of murder, physical abuse etc.). But I think that we should cross the physical/emotional abuse line with great caution.

If the state steps in, and takes the psychological and emotional foils of childhood away from children in the name of protecting them, you may be stunting their growth. Viva weird species diversity!

Your points are well taken. There is a hint of slippery slope here which I'm in two minds about. However, thresholds have been crossed before. For example the right of parents to beat their children was once considered quite untouchable. Even enshrined in the vernacular by the scriptural observation that to "spare the rod" was to "spoil the child".

There do appear to be clear cut examples of emotional and psycological abuse so aggregious, as to obviously require society to intervene. It is merely cultural intertia, the pervasive and unchallenged view that parents "own" their children, that has prevented intervention thus far. I think.

We are not taking away these bad ideas, and I agree that even bad ideas have some benefit in spurring beneficial discussion (ala John Stuart Mill) merely protecting children from them until they are emotionally mature enough to assess the intrinsic value of these ideas. It's not about censorship in the wider public sphere, adults can do what they like.

However, I would not want children exposed to pornography, or extremely violent movies. I consider some religious doctrines at least as pernicious, indeed I daily experience their morbid power in my own life.

291. Atheism's Wrong Turn

Comment #93428 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 3, 2007 at 6:26 am

There is absolutely no reason to see Atheism as a special exception. This means that one possible hypothetical future is a totalitarian atheist state where people who don't publicly renounce faith are hounded, victimised, their books burned, etc. A state where children report their parents for praying in privacy, or for saying "Good God!"

Absolutely. There is a myopic reluctance on the part of some, many of them right here on the site, to confront this reality. Even when faced with nascent versions of this exact problem in knee jerk reactions, generally culminating in the furious defence of the "saints" of atheism.

The recent absurd fracas vis a vis the "to donate or not to donate" being a case in point.

Or worse still, badly disguised (and occasionally quite blatant) calls to genocide. It's perfectly sensible to let that worry us, and we'd be quite remiss to let it pass without comment.

292. Atheism's Wrong Turn

Comment #93408 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 3, 2007 at 5:14 am

29. Comment #93325 by Santi Tafarella on December 2, 2007 at 5:38 pm

I am with him on virtually every point, until he suggests that parents should not have substantial control over how they raise their children. I think that in this singular area, Dawkins crosses a line from liberalism to illiberalism, and the New Republic author is right to call him out on it.

You seem, to me at least to have missed the point that Dawkins makes. As has the author of the piece.

In ancient Greece and Rome parents were at liberty to murder their children. Yeah really. As laws were eventually passed to prevent this, they were considered incredibly intrusive and an unacceptable abrogation of patriarchial authority. From this remove we can clearly see that even the discussion sorrounding this was absurd and misplaced. I suspect that in time, extreme religious brainwashing will be viewed in a similar light. Indeed, it is already viewed as dangerous nonsense by many in the secular, godless (yet curiously more civilised) EU.

Neither I nor my wife are at liberty to kill my daughter, present her as a "burnt offering", malnourish her, prevent her from attending school, beat her (we live in Sweden), sell her into slavery, chop off bits off her body because it'll "do her good", prevent her from receiving blood transfusions, or any of a zillion other stupid and irresponsible things that parents, through the ages, have done to their children.

I think, and I suspect, so does Dawkins, it perfectly sensible to include the presentation of terrifying lies as absolute truth to children, in that list of prohibitions. Or at the very least to view such behaviour as dangerous and irresponsible.

By all means tell them the benign and harmless things that are psycologically neutral, that may perhaps even be modestly positive.

However, the proven bad stuff needs to stop, and those that tell their children these hideous lies should know that they can, and will, be held accountable. Just as someone who force feeds their child drugs, alcohol or cigarettes would be held accountable.

If an adult wants to suck Jesus' cock till they drop, they can knock themselves out, but children need to be protected.

293. Debate: Ayaan Hirsi Ali vs Ed Husain

Comment #93369 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 2, 2007 at 11:52 pm

Bonzai, great stuff. Really thought provoking:-)

294. Fear of Barbara Forrest

Comment #92671 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 1, 2007 at 6:29 am

I just posted this :

It is with amazement and dismay, that I heard of the lunatic policy of "neutrality" on evolution versus ID.

As you must surely know, evolution is established scientific fact, while ID is thinly disguised creationist nonsense.

Chris Comer should have been promoted, while the "creator" of the idiot policy of neutrality should have been summarily fired.

This is almost as bad as the "Teddy Bear" incident in the Sudan. Except instead of a flea infested third world rat hole, this is occuring in the most heavily armed, and ostensibly the most progressive nation on earth.

I'm not an American, I live in Sweden. You should know that there is a belly laugh echoing around the globe right now, and Texas is the butt of the joke.

Reinstate Chris Comer and get rid of the religious nuts infesting the TEA.

Here : http://www.tea.state.tx.us/tea/contact.html

Go thou and do likewise:-)

295. Sudan demo over jailed UK teacher

Comment #92651 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 1, 2007 at 3:24 am

I fully appreciate your feelings but as far as I can see the evils facing the 21st Century are embodied in racism and religion. They are both fuelled by delusions and along with this unfortunate incident in the Sudan, show us more than ever we need rational thinking, freedom from superstition, and secular government.

Add nationalism to your list and you've get the full spectrum of lunatic ideology covered:-)

I found the article you mention thought provoking and disturbing. Interesting. Secular first, democracy after. I'm not sure I like the sound of that, mostly because I actually found the author made a strong case.

296. Debate: Ayaan Hirsi Ali vs Ed Husain

Comment #92615 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 1, 2007 at 12:30 am

Bonzai, I'd recommend you consider the approach you are trying to counter here a form of trolling. In paticular Fanusi does not discuss in good faith. He is disingenous, and possibly dangerous as I have posted before, there is plenty of evidence of this on the web. His faux hand wringing and agonising is particularly repellent.

http://www.nicedoggie.net/2006/?page_id=1536&stats_author=Fanusi+Khiyal

There is something in the history there which fuels the absolute certainity and rage. Nonetheless, I just don't see the point of engaging someone so duplicitous.

Janus, I'd extend the benefit of the doubt to, but you're locked into an unproductive quarrel with him now.

I suspect that every time the muslim world does something as stupid as the "whipped for rape" and "death to the teddy bear infidel" people become so angry that it radicalises their position on Islam and a range of related subjects, like religion.

I don't know what to do about that except let each incident blow over. It's not as if injustice isn't rampant in these places every day!!!! I guess just not to one of "our" chubby faced teachers out doing a good deed, or teenage girls.

I genuinely thought that atheists as a group would be less prone to this collective urge which is the curse of our species. Yet, when they go group, they go big. Just like every other "not quite a chimp" on the planet, including me. Disappointing.

297. 'Teddy' teacher jailed in Sudan

Comment #92237 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on November 30, 2007 at 5:47 am

That's certainly the lesson I'd have learnt from HMG's dealings with the IRA these last 15 years.

Really? As an Irishman I take the view that restraint has delivered a rich and stable neighbour, with almost the highest per capita earnings in the EU, buying British (and other EU) stuff hand over fist.

Now sucking the Northern Irish economy along in its wake to such a degree that unemployment is so low all over the Island, that no one has any time left for terrorism. Too busy. Frankly, that sounds like a result to me.

Do you think if the UK had been "doing something effective" we'd be were we are now?

298. 'Teddy' teacher jailed in Sudan

Comment #92232 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on November 30, 2007 at 5:32 am

I'm officially coining the term "to Khawad". Meaning To spitefully and pointlessly undermine just because you're a mean bitch. Or bastard. and you can.

This one really has me blowing my top. Not just because its stupid, absurd and pointless, but because it drives us further into the arms of our own fuckwits.

Arrrgh.

299. 'Teddy' teacher jailed in Sudan

Comment #92225 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on November 30, 2007 at 5:16 am

I also just called them, and a person answered. Call the ass off them, at least you'll be yelling at a real person!!!

Embassy of the Republic of the Sudan
3 Cleveland Row
St. James's
London
SW1A 1DD

Telephone: 020 7839 8080

300. 'Teddy' teacher jailed in Sudan

Comment #92224 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on November 30, 2007 at 5:13 am

I read these assholes the riot act. Here. Go thou and do likewise.

http://sudan-embassy.co.uk/en/component/option,com_contact/ampItemid,3/