251. The Problem with Atheism

Comment #75814 by Veronique on October 3, 2007 at 6:18 pm

44. Comment #75592 by Matt7895

You are correct, I think, about kids. I grew up in the late 40s and 50s in Singapore. None of us noticed anything essentially different about any other kid. My closest friends were Portuguese Malays probably because their father was a colleague of my father's and our two families saw a lot of each other. And there was a great Chinese family at the end of the road. Our syce's kids were Indian and lived so close to us that my sister and I found lots of times to sneak out of the house and play with them. Then I got nits and was forbidden to see them for weeks while all the kids were treated.

As kids mature and start to think of breeding, I think as a general rule, they tend to look for partners amongst their own race. There's a cultural push as well, of course. Having said that, miscegenation is more widespread than it used to be, so there is hope:-). The more we move around in the world, the better. However, I think that 'cleaving to one's own kind' is more the cultural norm. It may change but won't be eradicated. What should be slapped down as soon as it raises its ugly head is the inference of inferiority/superiority as applied racially.

51. Comment #75605 by knulp

Love your moniker:-). How about mystical rather than spiritual? I think that is more what Harris is saying anyway. I think the Harris/Sullivan debate, excellent as it was, would have fared better if both had used mysticism instead of spirituality. But that's just me:-).
…………………………..

I have to say that I agree with Russell, Jack and Yorker and others that we are engaging in a war (I hate the word) against being subsumed into the increasing push for theocratic education, government policy and employment opportunities et al. I fail to see why posters here can't appreciate what is actually going on.

I don't really care what I'm called. The more voices, the better. I'm in. – Mark Smith

Hear, hear:-).

I have just read down the rest of the comments. I think we are prone to distract ourselves with minutiae, be it science etc and religion. I can't believe that any of us would want to have to live in a country that started operating under the 'new theocracy'. That is what the threat actually is.

As BeyondBelief said, Liberty University and colleges like Patrick Henry are committed to turning out graduates who actively seek government positions. And they get them. Doesn't that frighten you?

My Roman Catholic friend, Jenny, thinks I am over the top as well. She sees events that are happening but doesn't join the same dots that I have joined. Is that how some of you posters are as well? You can't see the danger? Jenny can't:-(. My 'Universe'-believing friend Kym recognises my dot joining and is worried.

I can't do just nothing. That would border on the same sort of criminal neglect we are, all 6.5 billion of us showing to our habitat. These issues have to get bigger than a talk-fest. Surely?

Besides, I have been an activist on different fronts over the decades and this one against theocracy is the biggest. I would be disappointed in myself if I shuffled off this mortal coil with a whimper instead of a bang:-) just because I am getting older.

So yeah, I'm 'in'. I am a self-described atheist and anti-theist with a sense of fair play. What is going on is not fair play. Redress is what is needed in my book.

And so is a cup of Quetz's finest blend:-).
V

252. The Problem with Atheism

Comment #75576 by Veronique on October 3, 2007 at 3:38 am

18. Comment #75534 by Bonzai

It's OK. Don't worry. We are all different and it doesn't help to squabble. Basically if you understand a need to politicise the rational, humanistic, materialist, scientifically evidenced based model of living a life, then the scraps between us all are just going to happen.

Doesn't matter. It's a slow, grinding effort. This site is our safe haven to argue, disseminate opinion and information. Sure everyone in the cyber world can log on, read, take to task as many as he wants and chortle over our apparent unherdability (don't know how to spell that).
…………

I have been ambivalent about the word atheist for a long time, for exactly the reasons posted on this thread and others.

It sure has been a word for long enough to gather baggage. It's been around since the mid 1500s. Be that as it may, I think it is time to label myself (note, I said myself) as an atheist and also an anti-theist. It's not just that I don't believe in gods and their written instruction booklets. I have a quite strong position about the BS bumph that is portrayed throughout their proselytising and constrained literature that has been used to disadvantage and murder whole groups of other peoples. And, apart from the repetitive Koran that is quite poetic (I have just started to read it), the Judaeo-Christian Bible is poorly written and bores me shitless. Obviously written by a linguistically uneducated lot of men, with heaps of imagination but not much sense. Lousy used-car salesmen the lot of them. Revelations? What drugs were you on John? I have read that Patmos was full of 'magic' mushrooms. He was hungry, being the ascetic that he decided to be while living in his cave and getting someone to transcribe his 'visions'. Yeah, way to go kiddo.

Sure there's a downside to using a self-descriptive word that has had baggage attached to it. I don't demur. However, it is time to counter that old baggage and develop a new and updated usage of the word atheist. Language is not static, it's a living thing:-). I don't know how many of you actually like looking at language. I am fascinated by the subtle changes in meanings of words we commonly use and assume we know meanings of. Damn, finished a sentence with a preposition!!

I am not with Harris on going back under the radar. We haven't time to do that. This is real and present danger. I think we have to politicise, we have to develop a political voice.

22. Comment #75539 by Robert Maynard

I agree, idealism is fine but without hard-nosed practicality, it goes nowhere fast. If we are going to demand some representational political voice, then that requires action of some sort. We won't get there by bickering. But hey, what movement hasn't bickered within its ranks and, somewhere along the line, has buried those differences in order to gain a common voice.

Trade Unions have learnt this lesson well. They are losing ground in a conservative Australia and have been for some time. And that's what happens. Religion seems to be less vulnerable to changing generational views. Although I take heart at the activities of RRS in their benighted country.

Richard Morgan tells it from his vantage point in France. How many Islamic religious folk have migrated to France, Richard? Do you know, are there stats? Do you see any sort of zeitgeist change in France? You have been there a long time:-).

I have a friend in Amsterdam who tells me of that city's tolerance and also relates that there is a change in the population structure that, of course, will impact on policies. Theo van Gogh was murdered there remember.

Then there's Germany with Islamic peoples building mega churches, the fear being that the churches will be recruiting centres for fundamentalist Muslims; same with London.

Someone on these threads posed a question as to why Europe had had enough of religious differences and embraced secularism. The wars between Luther and his followers and the Catholic Church was enough to make Europe sigh and say 'no more'. How many millions died (were murdered for religious reasons) during those wars? Secularism flowered as did rationalism and the beginnings of science. The Enlightenment was finally on its way; cynically applauded and underwritten by the Roman Catholic Church. Humph.

But I think it's changing again. Passionate people usually hold sway over those who are apathetic. Those of us who sit on the lounge, having a beer, watching sport, arguing about teams and yawning at news broadcasts, never reading anything substantial (this is the archetypal Aussie I am describing), will have little or any say in the organization of their society. And they could care less. Frightening isn't it? We have forgotten the hard-worn freedoms that started in the 1500s. None of us remembers any of that struggle. And practically no one reads history critically any more. Kids think it's a yawn. We forget how new is this religious freedom we now take for granted in our fragile secular democracies in the West. For most of our history we were ruled under theocratic principles. And suffered and died under those principles. This divergence from theocracy is new and still an experiment. Let's make sure it doesn't fail, please:-).

Iran is a theocracy and everyone who lives there is under the sway of theocratic rule. Did any of you read an excellent translation of Ahmadinejad's speech at Columbia? America should be ashamed at the President of Columbia's opening address. It showed the utter inability of America to understand that, outside its sequestered, insular view of itself, there is a world that doesn't think America is the world's dominion power and is actively trying to subvert its dominionism. Do I blame them? No, I can't seem to.

Happiness and the pursuit thereof? I am with Richard Morgan. It's an ephemeral quicksand that sucks us into oblivion. Not recommended really. Reality with all its warts is what we have to learn to address in a very real world not just on these gorgeous threads where we can pontificate, express opinions, argue the toss with silly literalists for hundreds of comments (I am not having a go at any of you – please understand that).

People like dear Goldy try to talk sense to the PaulEmecz's of the cyber world. It gets no one anywhere and makes Goldy frustrated at the effort he puts in. (your effort with your weight is much better addressed, my little {big?} dear:-))

This appalling world situation desperately needs us all to bring reason to the fore. Let's try to stop squabbling:-). end of rant

Cheers
V

253. Do you have to read up on leprechology before disbelieving in them?

Comment #75304 by Veronique on October 2, 2007 at 9:33 am

This thread isn't getting any better. Revcort is about to run away His initial and continuing problem is that he was not prepared for a group of atheists who could quote the bible, chapter and verse right back at him.

He made the assumption that atheists know jack-shit about his holy book and that he would be able to hold forth on his arguments without challenge. He would have been right if all he had had to confront was me. I have never been versed in any holy book (thank you, pater).

But he continually gets backed into one corner after another by posters who know their shit and ends up by making a fool of himself over and over again. He always ends up with the ridiculous 'you have to have faith' or only a truly spiritual person can discern the true meaning of the bible'.

I take my hat off to the likes of gr8hands and others. It is clearer than ever that, as I said 800 odd posts ago, you will never get him to see his own inconsistencies, let alone those of his holy book.

CHeard and brother john have joined in the fray from a far more reasonable standpoint and have been taken to task by revcort for not believing in his way (the right way, of course). The man is a fundamentalist (fortunately not of the physically violent kind) through and through. There is no reasoning with him. He ducks and weaves, is utterly intellectually dishonest and unrepentant.

This has been a fascinating thread, similar to the McGrath thread where Dianelos and PaulEmecz played similar games. The only good thing for me is that I learn about this silly book they all keep going on about, Thank you very much you guys.

And now, to bed:-)
V

254. Dawkins - what can't he be blamed for?

Comment #75176 by Veronique on October 2, 2007 at 1:44 am

Careful you guys. The levity police will arrive onto this thread soon and you will all be doomed.

Stock up on tea to handle the onslaught:-)

Hahahaha
V

255. AAI Convention webcam

Comment #75172 by Veronique on October 2, 2007 at 1:37 am

303. Comment #75165 by Philip1978

Tell me about it, but then again how is a 29 year old lunatic supposed to act?

Pretty much the same as a 64 year old lunatic acts:-) I think.

Got to love you Philip
Enjoy your tea hunting and gathering
V:-)

256. AAI Convention webcam

Comment #75161 by Veronique on October 2, 2007 at 12:23 am

264. Comment #74959 by Ilovelucy

What's an inner Yoda like? I feel I have to reply to your latest post:-). Be rude not to.

is the expression of distaste an unnecessary or negative thing?

I certainly do think so. If someone hands me a glass of shitty tasting wine, my distaste is most certainly expressed as a negative.

stirrings of the Coffee House Philosopher Atheists, or has it already split with the Public House Philosopher Atheists?

Give it time you impatient fellow. No one has agreed on a schism yet, let alone a venue in which to develop the schism.

Like all burly working-class men who've spent their life doing manual jobs, I'm a huge softy at heart

Well I am glad. I always love softies:-). Probably about half of the men I have known (watch it!!) up here in Mullumbimby are farmers, timber workers and self-described 'working-class' people - all softies:-). All would help you at the drop of a hat. That's pretty good, in my book.

One thing I like about these boards is that the stand on ad-hominems means that you have to attack the point not the person

Exactly. Though I have been known to indulge in this crime:-).

PS. I see the current agreed title is the Coffee/Alehouse Philosopher Atheists' Club ("CPAC"), I was thinking of going for the Coffee House Atheist Philosophers (CHAP), or is that a bit sexist? Is it all getting a bit like the Judean People's Front?

Yeah, a bit sexist. Do I give a shit? Nah, not really. And Russell is okay with a change to CAPAC with (I hope) the emphasis on the second syllable. Also see above:-). Why don't you come and enjoy the inaugural meeting my dear chap:-).

Shit, it's time I stopped:-)
V

257. AAI Convention webcam

Comment #75154 by Veronique on October 1, 2007 at 11:51 pm

Robert. 22 years old!!!

Well, there you go:-). Just shows what anonymous posting can do – I would have thought you were older than that by half:-). Posters come across as they are, not age-delimited as it were:-).

Good one, pleased to know you (well, sort of:-)). I like your posts. Read this thread at your leisure (I know it's not the same:-)). Very interesting little split with some left fielders thrown in. I thoroughly enjoyed it, I have to say.

Cheers to you
V

258. AAI Convention webcam

Comment #75150 by Veronique on October 1, 2007 at 11:35 pm

295. Comment #75142 by bayareadude

At the risk of inviting your ire or whatever:-).

Have a cuppa tea, kick your shoes off and relax.

If that sounds patronising, PaulEmecz will tell you:-). Did you ever get over to the McGrath thread? I got bored several times and now only visit once a week or so. The same arguments re-iterated over and over again for over 2,400 comments. Dianelos is there now (or was, the last time I looked).

Dear, sweet Goldy eventually left in frustration somewhere around the 2,300 comment mark. Lovely bloke, great sense of humour and of the ridiculous:-). He's made me laugh lots of times.

Nice website, this one
Enjoy:-).
V

259. AAI Convention webcam

Comment #75104 by Veronique on October 1, 2007 at 8:32 pm

289. Comment #75088 by monkey2

Well found!! I am going to keep that quote and trot it out whenever it is needed.

You are right, it is cheer-up material:-). Now to find some more like it…..

Cheers
V

260. AAI Convention webcam

Comment #75080 by Veronique on October 1, 2007 at 5:11 pm

Steve Zara

I don't disagree with you that would be stupid. Just don't discount the under-educated ones. I reckon that if push came to shove (as it may well do), the more articulate and better educated of us would be able to rely on that broad base more than we think:-).

I know you are 'out'. Knew it some time back when the Flea was being particularly revolting about homosexuality. You are a good man. We don't really disagree, you know. In clichéd words, it takes all types.

I know we have to lift the agnostics and those who are hesitant. Build a library my darling and get it out there. It seems to be working for me. Talk lots. Someone borrowed my DVD of The God Who Wasn't There yesterday. Great!!

I have 3 copies of TGD, all out on loan at the moment. Here's a list of my books out on loan:

Lovelock – The revenge of Gaia x 3
Ullah Jan – The Ultimate Tragedy
Bryson – Mother Tongue
Maddox – God Under Howard
Dawkins – Unweaving The Rainbow
Ali – Infidel
Grayling – Against All Gods
Bryson – A short History of Nearly Everything
Johnson – Nemesis
Weisman – The World Without Us
Dawkins – The Selfish Gene

You can tell I used to be a librarian – all logged and complete:-). It's very gratifying. People are beginning to know that I have books that I will eagerly lend to them. Some will never bother reading; doesn't matter. You can't expect people to be the same.

There's Russell with CAPAC. I love it. I hope to meet up with him in November – I am nowhere near his class or learning, but I think I will enjoy his company.

There's dlitt in Canada and Yorker, Billy and the rest. It is all plod. Really. With all of us trying, we will get there eventually. If Bush et al don't blow us up beforehand:-).

Head down, bum up and keep plodding. It's all any of us can do. It's beautiful and subversive.

Cheers
V

Edit Oh no, I just noticed that I had posted twice. I have deleted my post 264 so now the comment numbers are fucked up. I am so sorry.

261. AAI Convention webcam

Comment #75069 by Veronique on October 1, 2007 at 3:36 pm

Steve99

I like the story of your father:-). I like the story of the 13 year old Yorkshire boy that Yorker related. Great.

I also like my plumber who just doesn't believe in any god. He is nearly 66 and has never read a book, beyond what he had to, until he left school at 14. He watches 'silly' TV, talks in clichés, but knows his plumbing. He fishes in his spare time. He's a really nice fellow. He wouldn't know what to make of your comment or any other comment here. He doesn't know what to make of me. But he likes me and gives me beautifully filleted swallow-tail and yellow-tail and bream and scraps for the cats:-). Three kids un-indoctrinated.

I like my milk-man and she's a woman:-). She was born and bred in this little town, she'd be about early 40s. Before she and her husband, a cow cocky, bought the milk run, she used to work as a check-out chick in the local super-market and then at the electrical store. She (I have written before about these people) loves my religi-board and its quotes. She tells me she has never heard of the authors of the quotes but understands the words. She thinks religion is a pathetic waste of time and will have no brook with it. She laughs at everything especially religion. She wouldn't understand any of the comments here and would consider them wank. Three kids un-indoctrinated.

My timber miller is the same; jesus, he donated the timber on which the religi-board is hung because he approved of my reasons for posting. He couldn't do it but he loves what I am doing. He's very worried at the rise of fundamental religion in the world. He hasn't read a book in his life, all he's done is master the chain saw (and very well, I might add:-)). He'd be in his, maybe, mid 30s. He would be flummoxed by the comments here. Four kids un-indoctrinated.

My roofer built the religi-board; strengthened and framed it with some left over lathe timber he had lying around. He didn't charge me, just turned up with the board. He has to drive past my house every day as he goes to work; loves the quotes, approves of the action. He played with the Bhagwan for several years and then walked away. Early 40s. Two kids un-indoctrinated.

What I am saying is that people like these are normal, they are the broad base of this movement and I stick by my statement. None of the above people ever needed to be 'educated' to understand the stupidity of religion. They know it's all crap. Don't underestimate them. It's a big, broad base out there.

Believe me, I know that education is important. You know I am about to infiltrate the local high school with a semester course in critical thinking. Just try to take comfort in the smarts of the un-educated. They're there. Bless their cotton socks:-).

Good morning – another beautiful day in the sub tropics:-). Now I'll read the overnight posts.
V

262. AAI Convention webcam

Comment #74914 by Veronique on October 1, 2007 at 5:31 am

257. Comment #74907 by Yorker

Gotcha Yorker. I couldn't agree more. Normal and ordinary people are more like your Yorkshire 13 year old. Give them grunt, they know bullshit when they see it.

Hahahaha.

It's still a fight for rationalism, but it will win (sob, you and I may well be dead).

It's all good
V (in expansive mood)

263. Religion as a Force for Good

Comment #74909 by Veronique on October 1, 2007 at 5:14 am

80. Comment #74903 by Russell Blackford

Whatcha doing on 5th November mate? I will make sure I am in Melbourne on my way to Perth that day. I would love to see you if possible.

I am just an ordinary oldish woman who actually likes the way you think (although, I appear to be a little more intemperate than you:-)).

I hope we can meet. CAPAC rules yeah!
V

264. There Go The Dinosaurs

Comment #74902 by Veronique on October 1, 2007 at 4:31 am

90. Comment #74804 by tommcc

Calm down, calm down. He's 16 and finding his wings. If he is trying out evangelism, you know someone is trying to indoctrinate him into fear. Counter that with as much rationalism as you can muster and stay calm. Don't portray any fear that he can use to bolster the evangelists' arguments that you are lost. That feeds into his 16 year old rebelliousness against the older generation (that's you, my dear).

Stay with the concept of critical thinking. Start showing him how to think as a counter balance to what to think. There's a site – Google the Foundation for Critical Thinking. They will send small but dense pamphlets to you that will help in advancing critical thinking for your son. Leave critical thinking tracts (baggage word) around the house. Start asking him how he views logical fallacies. No school that I know (in Oz) teaches critical thinking as a core subject. And probably not in yours either. But then, our pollies wouldn't want that, would they?:-).

I feel for you, how awful, I can imagine your heart beating very fast with anxiety. Creationists are amongst the most untruthful people that we all come across. In fact, I am thinking that they head the list over and above used car salesmen:-). :-)=smile.

You poor blighter – don't ever show your anxiety. Counter productive. Keep posting us, please.

My blessings (non-religious of course:-))
V

265. Religion as a Force for Good

Comment #74893 by Veronique on October 1, 2007 at 2:56 am

77. Comment #74890 by Russell Blackford

That's almost Saganesque. Thank you for saying so succinctly what I have immense trouble trying to express. I waffle and get wordy. You do it with such ease:-)

Thank you
V

266. Religion as a Force for Good

Comment #74889 by Veronique on October 1, 2007 at 2:23 am

54. Comment #74837 by zenmite

Oh, what a horrible list of hate-filled destruction of priceless historical and religious treasures. It breaks my heart. It seems the Christians in Korea are converts and full of ideological hatred to their old religious beliefs.

I utterly loathe the Christian missionary culture that instils fear and magic superstition into other peoples. I have no words to actually describe my feelings about the devastation they have caused all over the world.

I hated reading your link and want to thank you for posting it:-).

Sob
V

267. AAI Convention webcam

Comment #74877 by Veronique on October 1, 2007 at 1:20 am

Having listened to that Ulster debate, I can understand why ricey nearly had an accident.

The arrogant, smugness of Paul Taylor who called himself a scientist but didn't name his discipline, was breathtaking. The gobsmacking ignorance of the religites was also breathtaking. RD did get cross and I don't blame him one little bit. He was interrupted all the time.

I agree Russell, however it was mighty obvious and even the presenter made sure the creationist side understood that it was doing the interruptions, far more than RD.

246. Comment #74838 by Goldy

I loved the letter from Dr John Haine and especially this bit

Dawkins is perfectly correct to focus on the impact of religion at the "McDonalds" level because that's where it impacts society by influencing mass behaviour. I doubt that we have many professors of theology believing that the sooner all Christians ascend to heaven in a rapture while the rest of us burn the better.

I think a lot of us having been trying to get this across, that RD didn't write a theological treatise:-).

Thanks for the links:-).
V

268. AAI Convention webcam

Comment #74824 by Veronique on September 30, 2007 at 4:39 pm

240. Comment #74815 by monkey2

Thank you for the links to the BBC Radio Ulster.

I am listening to the debate now (inbetween making breakfast) and have favourited the link:-)

Cheers
V

269. AAI Convention webcam

Comment #74807 by Veronique on September 30, 2007 at 3:12 pm

Can I chortle now Yorker:-).

Sorry Teratornis, I should have said 'may':-).

Thanks for the link CruciFiction

Great post Patrol. I know absolutely nothing about Devo – should I? Given my predilection for baroque music, I probably wouldn't get off on their music anyway:-).

You know, if you read through the later comments after yours and mine, I think the support for RRS and their rationality, their seemingly indefatigable focussed energy and public presence in their benighted country weighs in on their side.

So all is good. BTW, how can you stand with tail flailing limply when you are a jelly?

I can't wait until the AAI Convention content gets posted onto this site. I really, truly wish I had been there, sob.

It's a terrific morning here in Oz
V

270. AAI Convention webcam

Comment #74803 by Veronique on September 30, 2007 at 2:45 pm

Good morning all.

Just reading the overnight posts with my cuppa.

208. Comment #74740 by Teratornis

I don't consider anger to be a mental defect. In any case, it is an emotion that is part of a whole bank of named human emotions. And I don't expect people to calm down before they act. Some do, some don't, some can, some can't.

The anger I was referring to is a very deep anger, not a flare-up. I have mentioned a friend who is 54 who harbours this deep anger. He is the first person who has expressed this to me. He's a lovely bloke, thoughtful and kind.

I think you should read my original post again. It's my acceptance and understanding of this anger that I was talking about. And believe me, I know about revenge. It's a very controlled anger that propels the sort of planning needed to enact a successful revenge.

I am no longer shocked by human behaviour, I merely shake my head, sometimes in disbelief:-). I am far too old and have seen far too much said she in the comfort of her home in one of the safest countries in the world:-)

212. Comment #74752 by Teratornis

Thanks for your long post. However you have taken a quote somewhat out of context and developed an argument that goes way beyond what I was talking about:-). Are you studying philosophy perchance?

Cheers
V

271. Religion as a Force for Good

Comment #74792 by Veronique on September 30, 2007 at 1:08 pm

21. Comment #74641 by Cartomancer

Someone sent me this link yesterday.

http://www.pinr.com/index.php

You may be interested.

Cheers
V

272. Teacher: I was fired, said Bible isn't literal

Comment #74717 by Veronique on September 30, 2007 at 5:54 am

David Robertson is an extremely loathsome character. Or is that a caricature? I no longer care about being a sideline observer to his ravings. I have decided that he is one very nasty person.

I know that I have been very nasty back to him on a couple of these threads. I take no comfort from this. The Flea is one horribilis, a disgusting piece of humanity.

Billy I hope you can go to his church and show him up to be the revolting person that he actually is.

Very upset
V

273. Teacher: I was fired, said Bible isn't literal

Comment #74688 by Veronique on September 30, 2007 at 1:45 am

Apart from the Flea's inability to distinguish the usage of personal pronoun from a spurious use of the inclusive, I find that article revolting. Thanks for warning me SG and I have to say thanks for posting the link. You are correct, I cannot stand it.

The Flea:

Although I would also say that it is because of such events that I believe in God.

He believes in god because there are natural disasters? OMG – I knew he wasn't empathetic, but this takes the cake. He is now, officially a fruit-cake and very nasty to boot. It's a sort of self-satisfaction with natural disasters to prove his warped point of view. How much more horrible can he get. An asylum could evaluate him and give him an MMPI test. He would sit at the bottom end of the scaling structure.

There is no answer – only despair, death and destruction.

. Wrong!! However it may appear, there is hope, food and shelter (said she, screwing her eyes up whenever cheetahs run down their food source - such beautiful, soft, limpid eyes; such beautiful features-you know what I mean).

I know that I am quote mining, but none of it gets better, so quote mining doesn't even seem an issue when looking at what he wrote.

I loathe what this precious, pernicious, petulant little prick preaches (thanks Marcus Brigstocke).

Right. That's me with the Flea. No quarter will ever be given, not even in the interests of fair play; what an arrogant little shit. I now give myself carte blanche to attack him with ad hominem vitriol. How can you play the ball when the man is such a shit?

Thanks SG. My ire is up but my sense is intact:-).
V

274. AAI Convention webcam

Comment #74681 by Veronique on September 30, 2007 at 12:42 am

190. Comment #74666 by Russell Blackford

Would you consider a slight name change to Coffee/Alehouse Philosopher Atheists' Club ("CPAC")? If so when is the first meeting (to consider a constitution and charter)?

May I suggest Guy Fawkes Day (that way I can attend:-)); sip a few ales while swelling the numbers (always helps with the drawing up of constitutions - seems to add to the numbers factor and credibility, and, of course, the camel factor is more served by greater numbers).

Gotta love ya, Russell. CPAC sounds fine. I would be a proud member (and pay my dues, of course:-)). There is the added advantage of making the the term more pronounceable - CAPAC. Sounds a little like KAPOW. You know, packs a punch.

Just a thought
V

275. AAI Convention webcam

Comment #74665 by Veronique on September 29, 2007 at 10:17 pm

Yorker

Is it just me or timing:-) Do you hear a deafening silence from the naysayers? Maybe I toasted this bloke prematurely. I don't think so.

Come on you guys, pull wonderist's post apart. Bet you can't do it. Even if you could, what would be your considered criteria?

Hehehe. Forgive my chortling - very unseemly - I just can't seem to resist. George Carlin would love this:-) thread.

Vxxxx

276. AAI Convention webcam

Comment #74658 by Veronique on September 29, 2007 at 9:14 pm

181. Comment #74655 by wonderist

Yeah!!! And welcome:-)

I am so pleased you have taken the time and trouble to post here.

Thank you sooooooooooooo much. You should know (being a lurker) that I am about to toast you with a drink of the non-Quetz recommended variey. Humph - given the time here which I am not about to disclose.
V

Edit - you took your bloody time, didn't you:-). I am the kind old lady type:-)hahaha

277. AAI Convention webcam

Comment #74653 by Veronique on September 29, 2007 at 8:45 pm

178. Comment #74652 by Yorker

I reckon it was just as well the 13 year old was in down-to-earth-Yorkshire and not in America's bible-belt. Eh, Yorker?

And that is the point, isn't it; I think it is much more difficult for the young Yanks.

Hahaha - I just caught his accent in my head. I can hear him saying it. hahaha

My maternal grandfather was a civil engineer from Yorkshire.

There are always kids like that, we'd be lost if there weren't:-). Nice story Yorker.

Cheers
V

278. AAI Convention webcam

Comment #74649 by Veronique on September 29, 2007 at 8:05 pm

Teratornis

I know, I know:-)

I think people, maybe even especially young people, can be very angry when they are rejecting something as cloying as religion. Some of them quite possibly look back over their lives and are angry at the wasted time and the lies they have been fed. I don't know, but I could imagine, the passion attendant on that anger. Yes, it may be misdirected, but hey, anger often is.

The point is that they become accustomed to their newish lives eventually. Some people will be fine and won't pursue science, history or literature or much critical thinking. Others will be spurred on to study whatever it is that takes their interest. It's just that from now on they are freeing themselves of every last vestige of religious doctrine that they have been steeped in all their lives. It's the emotional power of religion that is so hard to shake.

People on this site have said that the guilt is very hard to eradicate. The snugly comfort of not having to think for oneself can be hard to eradicate. As far as I can gather, it's a tough road to rationalism/ atheism.

I have said before, these are ordinary Americans living in a culture that I barely understand. I can't and won't criticise them. I think they are being dealt with very poorly on this thread.

Does anyone know how many took the Blasphemy Challenge? I remember quite early on looking at some the videos and thinking how difficult and scary it must have felt for some of the posters.

Cheers
V

Oops - typo edit. They were tiny:-)

279. AAI Convention webcam

Comment #74637 by Veronique on September 29, 2007 at 7:04 pm

166. Comment #74633 by The Smart Patrol

Hahahaha. Good riposte, Patrol.

You do have a strange pseudonym though, sort of, um, uh you see what I mean:-).

Sorry:-), let's not go back to the pseudonym debate or we'll both be thrown off the site.

Although I had a go at your language, that's all it was, really. My other criticisms of other posters' negativity had all to do with content.

Cheers
V

280. Teacher: I was fired, said Bible isn't literal

Comment #74635 by Veronique on September 29, 2007 at 6:54 pm

Tectonic instability happened because of 'sin'! Does the Flea's church really propound this seriously???????????

Good Lord:-).

174. Comment #74627 by _J_

What a beautiful post smiles and shuffles about

I am so glad you picked up the Hamlet quote. It's been irritating me as I read these posts.

And I have to agree that Shakespeare is god. Please don't get upset Quetz, I will still drink tea:-).

Thanks again _J_.
V

281. AAI Convention webcam

Comment #74625 by Veronique on September 29, 2007 at 5:59 pm

145. Comment #74589 by The Smart Patrol

Thank God we freethinkers do not value strength in numbers as a defining principle of our ideology. I, for one, am delighted that the sartorially deficient, unkempt and harebrained RSS are not simply lauded by all and sundry as fellow enlightened rationalists, and are instead subject to some very sound constructive criticism. I would contend that "all this hate" for the RSS is precisely what is to be valued about our kind, and that we should be glad that we're not content to brown-nose every half-witted schmuck who happens to voice their (sic) distaste for feeble-minded superstition.

How many times do you read comments on this site that take others to task for attempting to slot rationality, freethinking and atheism into an ideological framework? Please understand that there is NO ideology.

Our only commonality is that none of us believes in anything that lacks objective evidence.

Your sort of comment belongs in the mouths of religites and other group-think mentalities. Please don't lump me in with your smug fellow enlightened rationalists and our kind. I take umbrage at what you are saying.

Zamboro makes an absolutely sound comment. It's been made before. Read all the comments on this thread and then look back on what you have written and rework it properly, there's a good chap. And smack your wrist three times. And stop being a precious prick.

Have a cup of tea
V

282. AAI Convention webcam

Comment #74604 by Veronique on September 29, 2007 at 4:58 pm

150. Comment #74600 by BaronOchs

Absolutely Baron. And nice to see you back here again:-)

RRS gives these people a voice and, judging by their success, it is needed.

Too many people here drink latte and cappucino. I like Russell and Corylus' idea of a club, especially in the bar:-)

Cheers
V

283. AAI Convention webcam

Comment #74601 by Veronique on September 29, 2007 at 4:48 pm

Dear Baeoz,

Don't apologise, no one really gives a shit:-).

I am not a fan of football and didn't watch the Grand Final – I hope that doesn't blot my copybook too much with you:-). But, tell me, how many Getup.org ads came on during the game?

I donated $100 to help them buy their prime-time slots? Can you tell me please? If you weren't too sozzled that is:-).

Cheers
V

284. AAI Convention webcam

Comment #74591 by Veronique on September 29, 2007 at 4:17 pm

144. Comment #74579 by LeeLeeOne

Read this comment from VY

135. Comment #74541 by VanYoungman

I am presently here at the convention and have found the RRS most professional and helpful. Nothing like some of you have suggested

.

Then go to the top of this page and read down. The variety of comments is worth it.

Cheers and have a cup of tea:-)
V

285. AAI Convention webcam

Comment #74569 by Veronique on September 29, 2007 at 2:59 pm

141. Comment #74567 by VanYoungman

Thank you my little darling. I also think Ms Ali is one amazing woman. And CH is right, she shouldn't have to live with bodyguards every minute of the day. I must say, however, I am glad they are there or she wouldn't be.

Enjoy your gorgeous time:-)
V

286. Do you have to read up on leprechology before disbelieving in them?

Comment #74568 by Veronique on September 29, 2007 at 2:51 pm

Brother John

Try typing into a Word document first. You can take as long as you like without the danger of being time-outed:-). And you can Alt Tab back to this site and scroll through the comments to make sure you address everything you want to.

Type <
Type b
Type > Then type whatever it is you want to bold. Then you have to close the tag, so
Type <
Type /b
Type > And you are done. Remember - no spaces.

If you want to italicise, change the b for an i. Make sure it's a lower case I (in Word, I have to go back and change the i. For some reason it defaults to an upper case I.

If you want to quote some text from a post here, use the same tags, but type blockquote instead of b or i. Remember to close the tags at the end.

That's as much as I can do so far.

I am not going to answer your question because it has been answered admirably by Philip and others. I would just be re-iterating. Like the others, I grew up with no religion whatsoever and can't imagine calling on a supernatural being in my decision-making process. Consequence is my guide. I suppose it's yours too, just coming from a different angle with an added meaning to the word.

Cheers
V

287. AAI Convention webcam

Comment #74559 by Veronique on September 29, 2007 at 2:04 pm

Yeah everyone! This thread is starting to come together. Great overnight posts. Just the stuff to read with my cuppa:-).

135. Comment #74541 by VanYoungman

You lucky little ducky. I am so pleased you are there, I wish I were:-(. Keep giving us updates, please, please.

wednesdayguevara - great post - keep on reminding people what's really going on outside this little talk-fest. I've been saying it since I started posting on this site. Bush has another 14 months to run. It's dangerous and he can do a lot of damage in that time.

captain underpants and others – words like fucktard and asshole are common currency, don't worry about them. I swear all the time and have done for the past generation and a ½. Swearing and 'bad', abusive language have been around forever, the words change a bit each generation that's all. My language would be considered mild these days, very ho hum. And, of course they are angry. My landscaper (54 years old), is still angry at the lies he was told as a kid.

It is all such a non-issue. Trust me. Remember the brouhaha that attended the launch of RD's atheist T-shirts on this site? Pure wank, in my opinion.

126. Comment #74484 by Matt7895

The real problem is how they present themselves... they wear t-shirts and hoodies with their logo on it, they can be loud and crass, it doesn't send out a good message to agnostics and apathetics who of course are our main target

1. Let's hope the right-wing religious fascist fucktards and assholes come across to the rest of the religious community as loud and crass and very DANGEROUS. Let's hope they send out a bad message:-). But I wouldn't bank on it.
2. RRS is meeting them head-on. On their own ground. Good on them.
3. RD, SH and CH are tackling a different front. They have publishing capacity on their side. Good on them.
4. The rest of us here should be tackling our small local areas.
5. The agnostics and apathetics wouldn't even know what RRS is. Hell, they don't know RD, SH or CH. The only people I personally know who have any idea who these blokes are have been told by me. True. The science teachers at our high school hadn't heard of RD until I gave them a copy of Growing Up in The Universe.

Finally, just get over it, get out there and do something, please!! It's Sunday here and the bloody church bells are starting to call the faithful to pray to their sky gods. Yuk.

Bless Quetz and my third cuppa.
V

288. Why Christians should take Richard Dawkins seriously

Comment #74485 by Veronique on September 29, 2007 at 5:20 am

277. Comment #74467 by Dianelos Georgoudis

When you publish stick to IT. You know, as well as the rest of us, that you will never do a TGD or anything like it. You haven't got the capacity and self publication is expensive.

Get over yourself. And have you paid your dues to RDFRS for your interminable postings? I would bet not. Free loader. You continue to engage in pretend arguments, wank yourself to death, irritate the rest of us and take up space and time.

Come on Dianelos - at least $100 is due to RDFRS. Pay up or fuck off. You have had a bloody good run on these threads. Don't count the sweat of your brow, count instead the sweat of others who try to reason with you and pay your dues.

V

289. Scientists Feel Miscast in Film on Life's Origin

Comment #74483 by Veronique on September 29, 2007 at 5:02 am

It's worthwhile repeating this Hitler quote:

My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and saviour as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognised the Jews for what they were and summonded men to fight against them and for who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.

Chilling stuff
V

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Comment #74479 by Veronique on September 29, 2007 at 4:47 am

BAEOZ. Humph - I punished myself. But I like you:-).

I have never really grown out of baroque music. I did, sort of, in my late twenties and early thirties with contemporary music, Pink Floyd and Moody Blues, van Morrison and others but as I got older I reverted back to the music I listened to as a kid.

At the moment, on the CD player in my car, I have Handel playing. pure joy.

Sorry my dear. But I love you:-)

Red, red wine
V

291. AAI Convention webcam

Comment #74457 by Veronique on September 29, 2007 at 12:26 am

109. Comment #74453 by dlitt

Frightens the fucking shit out of me, I have to tell you. Bizarre, though not really unexpected. Death throes are a bit like that:-).

Take care
V

292. AAI Convention webcam

Comment #74446 by Veronique on September 28, 2007 at 11:24 pm

106. Comment #74444 by dlitt

I agree with you my dear 330lb biggest atheist. Is your avatar a photgraph of you? If it is, you look like a big huntsman-type person:-)

The younger ones are the ones who will accept challenges to any 'belief' structure (despite the Jesuits). That's why I think RRS is doing the best that it can.

Canada isn't the same as the US, is it. You are more like Australia as a colony of the UK.

Though, I gather there is quite a lot of sectarianism in pockets of Canada. I don't think there is nearly so much in Australia, though that could change.

I agree with Russell and Yorker that we have to politicise ourselves.

You sound like you are doing the small ground work that I do. I post on a religi-board outside my house, I write letters etc. I have the critical thinking teaching texts that you recommended (thank you:-)). I am about to approach the high school for a semester course next year.

It's just plod work isn't it? Keep on keeping on.

Nice to see you
V

293. AAI Convention webcam

Comment #74440 by Veronique on September 28, 2007 at 10:07 pm

97. Comment #74426 by Sinful Messiah

Brian is in his mid-thirties

Most of the others are younger than Sapient.

From where Yorker, Richard Morgan and I sit (and probably others), the members of RRS are young. We are in our early to mid-sixties.

Having said that, I also agree with Yorker that RRS's target group is totally different from groups anywhere else. USA is one bloody frightening place as he pointed out (even if anecdotally).

I correspond with a couple of Yanks in religite pockets who are intimidated and hide their rationalism because of fear of retribution from their local communities. RRS is brash (they're Yanks) and utilise a different methodology. It works for them and for those who need strong support.

Don't forget what happened to MIND_REBEL, our young Mexican, who left this site in June because posters made fun of and slagged him. That, to me, was unforgiveable. Here was a young man, struggling with English as a second language, trying to post his thoughts and this site pushed him away.

This is no time to play high-brow we are elitist games. Everyone needs support. Of course, the religites will use RRS and RD and SH to their advantage. That's life. That's what all the people say:-)

Who gives a flying fuck. This is a slow, generational shift, it won't happen overnight. You can't say: Sorry this is a club that has rules for behaviour and apparel, you don't meet our criteria, so please fuck off.

Leave the RRS alone you nit picking bastards Well said teapot!! This sort of bickering is a bit like fiddling while Rome burns:-)

I am also sitting on the fence about that word 'fucktard' I can't work out whether I find it crude and offensive or marvellously evocative. Hmm, maybe both Good one Corylus LOL

Cheers
V

294. AAI Convention webcam

Comment #74402 by Veronique on September 28, 2007 at 2:53 pm

It is Yorker. And thanks for the congrats:-). Brian Sapient was the first to say thanks, you are definitely the first and only from this site:-).

I have done the same for The Real News (IWT) in Toronto because they don't accept advertising, corporations or government dollars and they need money. Their news site has just got off the ground.

I donate to the National Secular Society and the Atheist Foundation of Australia.
I also fund Common Dreams, IFAW and Medecins Sans Frontieres. Also RDFRS.

That's why I ranted here some weeks ago about donating to RDFRS, much to the amusement of some posters because I asked (demanded?) that Biz, Fides et Ratio and the Wee Flea pay for the privilege of taking up so much time and space on these threads. My rant did have the effect of galvanising a few people into donating action:-).

So many sites and organizations run on the smell of an oily rag that it is the least I can do, because I can't do anything else to help them keep operating. And, of course, I approve of and am grateful for what they are doing.

62. Comment #74323 by the great teapot

hahaha. I live with a tart of a cat. She fawns over everyone:-). She also looks at my eyes intently whenever I talk to her. She really, really looks at me and I look back. I find that if I talk to any of them they look at me. Each one recognises his/her name and seems to understand that I am talking to him/her. Some are more communicative than others, but Pixel (the tart) is an intense cat to live with, I assure you:-).

I have heard the theory (urban myth?) you mention. Haven't seen it in action though. But hey, that's anecdotal evidence, so I don't know either.

Good morning all
V

295. AAI Convention webcam

Comment #74353 by Veronique on September 28, 2007 at 8:10 am

42. Comment #74270 by steve99

Sorry to have to point this out, but lions also practise infanticide, especially when a new leader takes over the pack....

That's a given. It's obviously so in many groups of animals. Some monkey tribes are good at this. The new master rules and his progeny is his sole concern. Sorry I didn't spell that out – I thought that was understood. It is so apparent in so many species. My mistake making the assumption that that was understood by all.

I guess this trait could also be extended to include us at the level of the 'wicked step mother'. It's not that dissimilar, merely differently expressed.

And, BTW, my comment about critical thinking wasn't exclusive, but more inclusive of an understanding of the way people actually are. Critical thinking is more likely to lead people to understand evolution theory than thrusting it upon them without a prior capacity to think clearly.

Cheers
V

296. Do you have to read up on leprechology before disbelieving in them?

Comment #74268 by Veronique on September 28, 2007 at 2:25 am

868. Comment #74263 by Russell Blackford

A Canticle for Leibowitz was a terrific novel (given to me by my quack, a German, no less:-)). A good bloke who doesn't treat me like a dork who needs to know nothing except take this pill).

This novel both engaged me and gave me an appreciation of the European wars that I could not have gained from historical records. It delighted me.

Thank you so much for mentioning it. I had fogotten (well, sort of) how extraordinary a description (in imaginary real time) of an enormous part of European history it describes.

Thanks heaps for jolting my memory.

Cheers
V

297. AAI Convention webcam

Comment #74254 by Veronique on September 28, 2007 at 1:31 am

Re Cats of all stripes:

My feline companions are of varying 'breeds'. I have (amongst others) an Abyssinian and an Abyssinian/Somali cross. Neither of them ever leaves my side. I have to be careful when I leave the house and ensure they are constrained within four walls. Otherwise they will follow me wherever I go. They become fearful of the traffic noise and very anxious at unfamiliar ground, BUT they won't leave me. It is up to me to aware of them.

I am their herder. They chose me. It's a difficult and responsible calling requiring a lot of understanding and an ability to appreciate their tiny minds. Don't deprecate the herding of animals, especially not cats. Some of you will have read my extended essay about Sodium Silicate (my first Siamese/Burmese X cat who never left me for the four years of his (sob) foreshortened life. You remember Pewkatchoo:-).

If you are addicted to animal video programmes, as am I, you can't help but notice the familial ties within a lion pride. Who was it who posted a link about a pride beating off a crocodile attack on a young lion who was attacked while he was drinking at a lake? I seem to remember that either pigs or buffalo were also involved. Extraordinary video. I love cats, big and small. Amazing creatures.

If anyone bothers to read this post without a smile and a glass of red and tries to infer something that just isn't there, I suggest you go for a walk.

Cheers
V

298. AAI Convention webcam

Comment #74246 by Veronique on September 28, 2007 at 12:48 am

9. Comment #73998 by steve99

One of the main reasons for religious belief is lack of education and understanding of scientific arguments.

I think I would prefer to couch it in terms of a lack of critical thinking. Not all people relate to science and the scientific way of thinking. As has been said here, on several occasions, science can often frighten people for a number of different, perceived reasons.

My friend Kym, you know the one who thinks the Universe sends her signs, came around yesterday and talked to me about her current love affair (she has quite a number and each new found, unfledged comrade is the best for the nonce). Because falling in love engages the same lack of reason as any emotional belief/need and I listened to her trying to second-guess his apparent behaviour as seen through her eyes, I pulled out my dozen or so pamphlets on critical thinking (happily supplied by The Foundation for Critical Thinking).

She sopped them up!! She has borrowed Critical Thinking and (predictably) The Human Mind. I am pleased. It's like leading the horse to water and letting her drink for herself. She told me that she had met a fellow who was studying philosophy. She asked him why and what was he learning and he (apparently) replied that he was learning to think critically. She said that she was intrigued. That's when I jumped in with the pamphlets:-).

My lending library is growing (it costs me heaps of dosh, but I am old, so who cares) and so are those who borrow from it. It is starting to be very gratifying to me. It is, of necessity, slow but that's OK.

Maybe this methodology is a gentler way to approach some people. We all need a suite of armoury to draw on:-). And I could never really knock RRS – their methodologies are for the people who gravitate to them. All's good. It's a matter of getting 'it' out there.

Yorker, I think you understand me and what I am attempting to do better than most:-).

And, just maybe, I have to change my avatar so that my cat can actually espy your larger, growly and more herdable cat!! I will just give her a book to read. Easy for her with the size of her spectacles. Raise your glasses all, Quetz hour is finished, time for the ruling red!!

Cheers
V

299. Polygamist Leader Convicted in Utah

Comment #74216 by Veronique on September 27, 2007 at 6:03 pm

A bit off-topic, but related:-).

There are many reasons that propel sexual attraction, not the least one being, that neither party knows much about the other at the outset. Each one is free to fantasise about the 'nature' of the other and/or superimpose his/her idealist partner trip on the other.

Siblings have been subject to the behaviour (whole gamut) of each other with all the unattractive bits thrown in. They have watched each other grow up and seen the tantrums, poor actions, rebelliousness, jealousies etc.

As walk's friend pointed out "Nope! No way! Nada!" Any physical attractiveness in his sister could well by outweighed by what he saw of her behaviour during childhood. Now I wouldn't think that this is conscious, merely a deep, if gradual understanding, of the person who is his sister.

What say you Yorker? Does this sound at least a bit familiar?

I adore my brother, but he doesn't attract me physically at all.

All other arguments put by other posters notwithstanding. And I have known two sets of siblings who couldn't bear to be apart and lived together. One set eventually committed suicide. I don't know what happened to the other set. This was about 35 years ago.

Cheers
V

Edit I just read Beth's comment. I tend to agree with what she says.

300. Do you have to read up on leprechology before disbelieving in them?

Comment #73876 by Veronique on September 26, 2007 at 1:10 pm

walk

As an example of venom, Revcort doesn't need to go much further than The Good, The Bad and The Ugly on this site:-).

I was horrified with the venom written in The Bad and The Ugly sections. All religites, everyone of them. Disgusting, really.

This poor man is waiting for 'The Rapture', just like my tenant and a burgeoning number of others. It is very frightening.

Gray morning
V