251. Hitchens V. Boteach

Comment #120696 by scooternyc on February 2, 2008 at 10:33 am

Those that suffer or perceive suffering in their lives, enjoy that others suffer.

How noble.

252. Hitchens V. Boteach

Comment #120635 by scooternyc on February 2, 2008 at 7:09 am

eric

Scooternyc So far so good.

253. Hitchens V. Boteach

Comment #120592 by scooternyc on February 2, 2008 at 5:02 am

Eric, you've just opened yourself up to the vitriol of descent.

Brace yourself and best of luck.

254. Hitchens V. Boteach

Comment #120586 by scooternyc on February 2, 2008 at 4:25 am

MelM, you're right that the red herring always shows through and it was interesting in observation that the rabbi didn't even attempt to prove the existence of god he just went for the fish.

I would have enjoyed hearing Hitchens say, "yes, yes, yes, we know all these great quotes that you and I could drag out aud nauseum, but it still doesn't prove your case for the existence of god -where is your evidence to the personal claim? What have you got to offer us to place under the microscope of scrutiny?"

Ultimately, past all the quotes of attempted credential to prove the point, the individual making the claim really has the burden upon him or her self, an understanding lost on the unfortunate rabbi.

255. Hitchens V. Boteach

Comment #120443 by scooternyc on February 1, 2008 at 4:28 pm

Batboy - Greetings.

Well, I understand most people don't wish to be either accountable or responsible - they're happier with their consequence free lifestyle for which others are handed the bill. LOL!

256. Hitchens V. Boteach

Comment #120436 by scooternyc on February 1, 2008 at 4:22 pm

I was at the event and Hitchens was on his game, no doubt. I'm glad he was the first one up at the podium, he made his case so efficiently and precise.

I've seen Hitchens several times this past year on this subject and he has refined and defined it so effectively, any atheist would be glad he's, in a sense, speaking on our behalf.

The most glaring problem with the "debate" was that is wasn't a debate in any sense of the word.

Hitchens was left to defending his credentials too much of the time from the vitriol of the rabbi.

In fact, the rabbi did not present his case at all.

Hitchens clearly stated at the beginning what the motion before us was, "Does god exist?". The burden was all upon the those that claim it - hence, the rabbi - who never even approached the challenge.

The rabbi spent more time attacking Hitch and utilizing quotations not germane to the motion presented; was illogical and had no grasp of science but for which he acted as though he was. This was the same tactic utilized by Sharpton and challenged by Ayaan back in May, one of the other times I saw Hitchens in this forum.

While Hitch was on his game, entertaining as always, and humorous more than he could possibly contain, the rabbi was a mess, with a voice so shrill that I'm sure there were dogs howling within the neighborhood in response to his high pitched yelps; his mind had walked off the map.

257. Heath Ledger Death: Baptist Group To Protest At Memorial

Comment #115734 by scooternyc on January 24, 2008 at 3:14 pm

Ah, yes, the great intellectuals from Westboro, reminds me of this gem years ago, legend or real:

Dear Dr. Laura,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.

Whoever wrote it had fun!

258. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113578 by scooternyc on January 20, 2008 at 5:02 am

I can't give you personal anecdotes because I don't know you

Well, you don't need to know me to be able to say, "here's a situation that happened to me personally, let's track it back because I 'feel' like I was a victim or I was not at fault..."

But, no worries, I understand the hesitancy to do so, it takes great courage to have to face the music in life of situations in our lives of our own making.

No one said all the choices were going to be the ones we wanted, but in the face of those choices before an individual, he/she must still face the music and accept accountability when deciding to take one road over the other

I don't meet resistance because of "enabling" I meet resistance because of the co-dependent nature and view of life that many, not all, have on this thread and others, of being a "victim" to life and circumstances rather than the personal empowerment of individual choice

I'm sure that last paragraph just riled the beast in many - as to be expected

I did enjoy the semi-rational discussion with you, thanks for not being totally void of rationale by which to have adult conversation

Good luck to you.

259. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113454 by scooternyc on January 19, 2008 at 3:27 pm

"I'll ask again though is success in life merely a product of one's good or poor decisions?"

I'm starting to think you have no brain.

YES, yes, yes, yes

You may not like the choices but they are the reality by which you must make one

You want to make this stupid hypothetical regarding a child about a situation I spoke toward earlier

Are you that stupid to think that a child is intelligent enough to make decisions on its own in the face of such a hideous situation?

That's why the child has a "guardian" until it can learn on its own - is this not obvious to you?

I think you've lost your mind

You're so hell bent on trying to dismantle the ideas presented you're willing to present even the stupidest of thoughts as intelligence

It's why our society protects children

Can I hold the child accountable for being in the situation – no – you're an idiot to say otherwise

Can I hold the parents, WHO ARE THE RESPONBILE PARTY – accountable for their choices which lead to this – YES

If the child gets placed into a foster home and grows up, does each choice the child makes along the way when an age of reason is reached, typically around 8 years, make the child become accountable for outcomes – yes

Are you this stupid about children that you would make such a ridiculous hypothetical?

Again, I think you've lost your mind

260. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113446 by scooternyc on January 19, 2008 at 3:15 pm

Batboy - well at least we made each other laugh! My favorite emotion - joy! : )

You say my ideas are not workable, but based on no example to say that it isn't.

You say it's not workable but no one ever presented even the slightest personal experience by which to see if I am the one who needs to start on the drawing board again

Just lots and lots and lots of accusations, emotional responses, attempted insults, attempts to offend, disagreements, not liking the ideas, not agreeing with the ideas...

...but not one brave person to step up and see if this "bully" is really a bully or someone with a new idea that works

Work and challenge is tough, not for the faint of heart (is that how that goes?)

Cheers!

261. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113441 by scooternyc on January 19, 2008 at 3:11 pm

His argument dies when he cant't answer all the examples

No, you just don't like the answers and don't agree with them

I've answered this hypothetical several times

262. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113438 by scooternyc on January 19, 2008 at 3:09 pm

Paula, what makes you think mine are not based in practical experience? Interesting accusation, with no evidence of such.

You have no data to offer other than your opinion and subjective reflection of your statements, at least I place the challenge and am willing to go to the mat to show bring it on –you have said nothing more than your own platitudes of empathy, as well.

Life is about outcomes

You can be subjective, but it doesn't mean anything other than you have an opinion

The biggest problem with all of these opposing posts - is that not one of you even understands the concepts by which I have repeatedly written

You don't even understand it yourself, let alone live it, so you couldn't possibly apply it to others

Mesomodel - I've said before, we may not like the choices offered, but we still have choice - don't confuse a difficult choice with none at all

But, hey, I seem to want it all ways, it doesn't occur to you to look back at the tree of irresponsible behavior and see from where it grows and the branches it sprouts, it's easier to just say I want it all ways

The level of co-dependency on this site is stultifying on all levels

Look that one up and it'll really p*ss you off

263. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113434 by scooternyc on January 19, 2008 at 3:00 pm

Nobody gets to be successful without the help of others around them

Help? Or handout?

Help is offering choices by which a reasonable person will make many toward success

Handout is just giving away the store for no reason other than it makes you feel good

Do we have that correct?


it is the only thing that could account for people not beating the shit out of you on a regular basis for your blind arrogance

Your subjective perception, such as it is, only reveals your unwillingness to look past your own emotional rationalizations to even see if what I say is worthwhile - contempt prior to investigation

You'd be surprised, indeed, the great many, many, many people who respect me, my ideas and the example of life that I live

But you or anyone one else emotionally upset by my statements wouldn't see the worth of another person that doesn't agree with you - it's only about the people that you agree with

Which is great, because that means you'll keep to your tribe and through evolutionary process we'll get to see who wins

I'll look back to wave when I'm at the finish line to see where you are still in the race - good luck!

You want to be offended – now that was arrogant and offensive – yeah me!

264. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113420 by scooternyc on January 19, 2008 at 2:38 pm

Batboy - you believe whatever you wish, tell yourself whatever you need to.

No one feels empathy for the strong - the strong don't need it and the weak disdain the strong

Does it occur to you that my ideas hold no control over others?

What philosophy does that, you know of? Any?

265. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113418 by scooternyc on January 19, 2008 at 2:32 pm

Paula, I will give benefit of the doubt that you missed this statement in your reading:

No problem, he can continue to figure it out, when he's ready, if ever, someone is there to assist, be it our billions of dollars or the church

Yes, you can keep revisiting him and potentially keep addressing the concerns, but each time you "give" to this person ANYTHING you are enabling the behavior to continue and not letting the anxiety of the individual raise to a certain level of pain which then seeks relief, not from the dollar given, but from hitting bottom and making the responsible choices needed to move out of it

You can't force him by giving him a handout, but you can give a hand when he's ready to grab for it

Why should you think that your choices for someone are more important than their own; even if you disagree with those choices; even if they aren't the ones you would make; even if it leads to their further destruction, what moral authority handed over to you the right to make that decision and take away their freedom of choice – why, that's just like the religious telling women they can't have abortions!

If I work as a soldier to release you from being held hostage, it's only opportunity I can offer, the rest is up to you - you are still compelled to make choices for yourself to live the life you want

Giving opportunity to ANYONE is the most generous thing to do - here's your opportunity - you have freedom - you have choice - go!

Make a life for yourself as you see fit.

266. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113414 by scooternyc on January 19, 2008 at 2:21 pm

mesomodel - you really like the hit from that emotional diatribe, huh?

Remind me to tell this to the Darfur toddler that just saw her father shot in the back of the head after having his limbs chopped off, and then watching her mother get gang raped and burned alive in her hut with all her siblings.

First of all, just what is it that you personally are doing to resolve this situation as you so state? Anything? Or just feigned platitudes of empathy.

Where does the accountability start?

Oh, that's right - with the parents who decided to have sex unprotected which lead to having a child being brought into a situation that is of horrible circumstance

Oh and it doesn't stop there, they had LOTS of kids brought into this situation

So where's the accountability factor?

Those religious types over there scaring people into having children instead of abortions because they are not able in many capacities to raise these children in safe homes?


Or perhaps it is the corrupt governments of those nations which seek to create the next Nazi regime for sport, power, and their own lineage of diseased thinking

Did you think this behavior just started at the moment of your birth and all historical reference before your birth is forfeit

Please!

Come on down off the cross, someone else needs the wood

Honestly!

267. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113410 by scooternyc on January 19, 2008 at 2:12 pm

3. Your disdain is starting to sound a bit like jealousy -- why are you giving them a free pass I have always been accountable? (you must not care for the prodigal son parable)

No jealousy at all. I would hope that more accountable people would take responsibility to pass on knowledge when possible, which seeks to support all human beings, not just Americans, or religious, or atheists, or whomever, but everyone. Put an end to this emotional free-for-all and the pass we've given others for not being held accountable and finding any excuse in the book to say "the devil made me do it"

My ideas discriminate no one for their religion, gender, race, you name it – it's all about freedom and choice – accountable & responsible – no cost to others


What say you?

That's what I say. : )

268. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113409 by scooternyc on January 19, 2008 at 2:10 pm

2. You are assuming that no one has ever treated you with the emotional empathy that you are railing against (in which case you have not always been held accountable -- kind of like polluting corporations and their externalities if you remember that discussion)

Oh, is this like the "Jesus died for your sins" guilt? Yeah, thanks, but that pill is too big to swallow. The person "showing" the empathy, made a choice to do so, I won't be held responsible for another's choice.

Every time I attempted to draw the empathy of another person, conscious or unconscious, I was extorting from them that which I had no business doing. If they played the game because of their own disease (we meet our disease at the level we are) then again, I can't be responsible, nor would the other person be responsible for my choices

Again, where my choice affected someone there is no apology that can be given to rectify such a situation; one must learn and move one, evaluate and work toward greater accountability

If you never examine your behavior, then you'll never know if you're acting with such flippancy – how many people here actually examine their behavior, their motives, their game playing? How many would even admit it to themselves let alone others?

Part of the reason no one wanted to take the challenge is because if you really start thinking of a situation you want to present of your own, not a hypothetical, and start the track back, the reality bites.

269. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113407 by scooternyc on January 19, 2008 at 2:08 pm

Scooter three things

1. It is not only for you to decide if you have paid your debt

We're talking about financial debt. And you're making an assumption that I've cost others emotionally

Perhaps the argument here and the disagreement there, the jealousy here and the disdain there – but 2 people play in those games my friend and both are accountable

When it comes to those situations, taking ownership of the reality and making responsible choices in the face of it are what moves a person toward more accountability

If someone harbors an unresolved issue that's not my issue – I could spend hours about the nature of this from a counseling systems perspective, but suffice it to say both parties are at fault – apologize and move one from one another or the situation and make choices to not do so in the future

You probably want to use this as the example of not holding the homeless guy accountable – trouble is, the scenario I present shows the critical thinking skills of evaluation, action, accountability

The homeless guy just wants his homelessness, drug, alcohol, et. al.

BTW - all of my life is for me to decide, as is your own - I decide who's not appropriate for my life - I decide everything to the level of acceptance - everyone does - it's a subjective life in that instance

I won't be held hostage to the unstable unresolved issues of another person who seeks to punish relentlessly - that's kind of like that orginal sin everyone is supposedly born with and can never get rid of - yeah, no thanks.

270. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113345 by scooternyc on January 19, 2008 at 10:34 am

BTW - Paula, no one wants to hear the whole story of how to manage these things, it was easier to have some emotional reaction and contempt prior to investigation

Or their "faith" card called "emotion card"

271. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113344 by scooternyc on January 19, 2008 at 10:33 am

And this is where we fundamentally disagree. By adopting this approach, we would condemn a large number of people to horrendous, shortened lives, when actually it needn't be like that.

You're correct.

Reality is that evolution would favor those who had the traits to survive

The street person is homeless from a series of choices made along the way

I will no believe that not one person in that individual's life did not attempt support of some type, the individual made the choice not to go down one road to favor another

All mistakes made by me are ones for which I'm accountable; people I've not been kind to, people I've assisted; people I regret; but I'm an adult and I understand these choices and live in adult fashion with the result - that's the difference

Mistake after mistake after mistake - but my mistakes have been at my cost only, to those that I have had debt, I've paid my debt - so no one "gave it to me"

This is one of the fundamental differences in approach - accountability is for all people; others think it's only for some

Again, I've outlined those tiny steps by shifting the paradigm of what we teach our children with regard to critical thinking skills

The explanation of "why" they don't feel their own worth is rooted in my previous explanation regarding upbringing and parenting

We seem to think that no expertise or advanced degree is needed to raise children, yet it is probably one of the single most important jobs in the world, from which all of this springs forth

I don't disagree with your approach of not swinging to an extreme, however, what has been preached on this blog is that we should feel sorry for these people and it invokes a socialistic type of response of just throwing money at the problem

No, we hold people accountable

"Sir, indeed, these are unfortunate circumstances you're in, however, here are some options for you"

"F*ck your options"

No problem, he can continue to figure it out, when he's ready, if ever, someone is there to assist, be it our billions of dollars or the church

What is not convenient is then someone handing this guy a dollar which thus prolonging his suffering within a disadvantaged situation just so they can feel good about him or her self

Like the addict who won't get help, all options turn away from him until he hits bottom and then reaches for support - upon doing so it is understood his accountability to self and others and on his way

Doesn't mean he doesn't make mistakes, but the solid continual motion of holding him accountable for his actions can move toward homeostasis, a productive life and a contributing member of society

And isn't that what these socialists want anyway

I'm just not willing to do it at cost to anyone but the person making the decision

Does the addict get away with "freebies"?

No, those on welfare and other such programs should still be accountable and have to pay that money back, like you do when you sign on the dotted line to buy a house or a car, you don't get to just wish it away

If you do, your credit suffers and that's a natural consequence

And on and on

My post is long, as well, we agree there, too! : )

272. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113335 by scooternyc on January 19, 2008 at 10:07 am

Batboy, you're correct I did mistaken you for someone less than agreeable by that previous post regarding the psns - thanks and my apologies

"I'll ask again though is success in life merely a product of one's good or poor decisions?"

Yes

273. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113325 by scooternyc on January 19, 2008 at 9:41 am

Well, Batman, if I'm mistaken that Steve is the culprit of said statement then certainly I chose to say it and apologize for making the mistake

I claim accountability for all statements, while there have been so many at this point, I'm sure I could have attributed this to him in mistake as we went round about it for a while it would not surprise me : )

Thanks for pointing it out; I will look over the previous posts

274. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113320 by scooternyc on January 19, 2008 at 9:31 am

Batman - Scooter another thing that bothers me is that you seem to think that you know the right answer to every scenario that presents you with an opportunity to make a decision.

If you are taught the formula 4 + 4 = 8 and you understand math, don't you think it then gives rise to application to other components of math, trig, etc.?

So, if you simply apply the formula you would see the simplicity of it, the track back, the choice and who made it and who is responsible

The problem, as we've all seen, is that everyone wants their "personal pass of subjective emotion" to play a part

Well, I just don't feel that 4 + 4 is equal to 8, perhaps its more like 7...

This is the road we head down

And still, no one took up the challenge to present a personal situation for which he/she would honestly walk it back and prove me wrong

I just get platitudes, insults, emotional unstable rhetoric all feigning and substituting intellectual discussion from some

If I'm mistaken I would seek to find the answer; if I'm not would anyone even attempt to admit their mistake

So one might say my approach is scientific regarding my ideas while those who are emotional just want to be…well…emotional, no reason, no logic

And voila! We are back to the beginning statement of emotional feelings trump reason and logic

Yet, this very disdained behavior is what sets off those regarding religion and god

It's like emotions are the faith card

275. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113315 by scooternyc on January 19, 2008 at 9:23 am

Steve Zara - LOL! I'm sorry but I don't believe you. LOL!

Anyone that states those credentials and then says that breathing is not automatic...

And doesn't understand the nervous system and its auotmation toward actionalble behaviors...

I'm sorry but somewhere there is a huge disconnect with your thinking

276. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113311 by scooternyc on January 19, 2008 at 9:09 am

Steve - I know how people hate Wikipedia but this is easy enough to utilize for some basic info

Autonomic Nervous System

277. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113310 by scooternyc on January 19, 2008 at 9:06 am

Steve I don't think there is much else to say unless you take some time to read some books on the psychology of the mind, a pharmacology book on the body physiology regarding the nervous systems and perhaps understanding more about the organism that is you and what drives you

Additionally just understanding what it means to observe action/reaction, the choices involved to create the action which lead to the reaction, which lead to the outcomes; are they the outcomes desired? Back to the drawing board.

It's quite scientific but you won't get there through your emotions, it's all about the brain

If you're a person driven by emotion, you have little use, tolerance for most explorations

At this point you keep going down directions for which are simply your opinions, which is fine, it just doesn't solve problems when faced with a varied opinion of all Americans or all human beings

Understanding objectively how a person functions leaves out the subjective "feeling" component and allows for solutions

Your intentions may be kind but the road to hell is supposedly paved with those, as I hear

278. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113308 by scooternyc on January 19, 2008 at 8:59 am

Paula - there is no problem with those that don't want help, except to leave them to their fate.

Two options happen - either they get "it" that no one is going to enable them or they die

But it is still their freedom and choice to make that decision

Is it preferred, no; is it likely, yes

Whoever spurred the idea that "saving" people was a virtue did incredible damage to the evolution...oh that's right, jesus saves

If as a society we look back at where "we" collectively are responsible for such outcomes, then it would have to be in the education of the child about personal accountability and personal responsibility for every choice made

Logically help a child understand the course of action to reaction to outcome; show how choices presented are the great personal empowerment; they never have to tolerate someone being unkind to them, speaking with disrespect; then walk through the scenarios of how to best solve that problem

Every scenario has choices; every scenario has outcomes; every scenario compels accountability for the choice

You're teaching critical thinking skills, how to manage one's life not rooted in some subjective feeling

Feelings could then be utilized for understanding the body reaction to a stimulus and moving someone toward action, but an action which does not cost others, nor does it victimize the person with the feeling, but all the while reinforcing the concepts that you are responsible for whatever choices you make out of those emotions

If you taught a child that "butterflies" in the stomach might be just a little nervousness, but here' one way to manage it...in the long run you don't over dramatize emotions and use them as logical indicators to be "response-able" to the situation presented, thereby accountable

Does it get much easier than this - I don't think so

Will it take a while to undo the damage done, yes, but all things worthwhile typically do

In the meantime, allowing people to get away with just dumping their emotions all over the place, just encourages them to not grow up

They are like children having a temper tantrum

279. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113288 by scooternyc on January 19, 2008 at 8:10 am

Steve you are confusing instinct and conscious choice

Instinct drives the natural self toward an action, as in something falling toward you, you then run without thinking

If a person says to the self, "I feel fear" it is no longer instinct but a conscious thought, sent by the parasympathetic nervous system by which the brain has learned: butterflies in my stomach are fear.

Of course, my previous post of language being a symbolic transference of the organisms chemical reactions was met with disdain and shouts down of lack of intellect

280. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113286 by scooternyc on January 19, 2008 at 8:02 am

but someone could give a beggar a dollar by making a logical decision right rather than an emotional one? You're not saying that someone's station in life is merely the result of the cause and effect of their good or poor decision making right?

Indeed, I am Batman.

Tell me how a person logically decides to give a beggar some money, walk me through it as you see it. Then we can chat about it.

(55wpm, ;)

281. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113280 by scooternyc on January 19, 2008 at 7:46 am

Yes, you can. And such responsibility is recognized in any civilized society, and any civilized person realizes that.

And this, sir, is the basis of co-dependency. Look it up; read it; discover it.

This is what drives people to enable addicts

This is what drives people to not get out of battered relationships

This is what drives people to suicide

This is what drives people to drugs

This is what drives people to addiction

This is what drives people to self-destructive behavior

Making them responsible for someone else's feelings

And this is why Jesus came to "save" everyone – taking responsibility for someone else's f*ck up, whether in action or in word

So much for your atheistic ways


Pot, this is Kettle - you're black

282. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113278 by scooternyc on January 19, 2008 at 7:43 am

Scooternyc if you condemn using emotion decision making -- that is different than condemning actions such as giving money to a beggar versus telling him to giving him a broom and paying him to sweep

Actually, the point I was making regarding the emotion of empathy.

Using emotion rather than rational logical thinking is not making a clear decision.

Should we "feel" our way through science, or should we base our hypothesis, outcomes, data, and theories out of solid logical foundations?

Just because a people want to rule their lives by emotion has no care to me whatsoever.

The problem is when your decision to rule by emotion is at a cost to myself and others.

If you want to have all the sympathy and empathy in the world and you're motivated by it – go for it.

But when your so-called empathy of emotion leads you to give a beggar a dollar to soothe your emotion then you're costing the rest of society by keeping that person from accepting the reality they are in and then acting to respond to that reality at no cost to others

Why should it be that this person receives a pass and this one doesn't?

At your whim?

If you boast equality and fairness, certainly you have better criteria than your "feeling" or whim?

Yes, it's called accountability and responsibility for one's actions, given the choices presented and the choices taken

EVERYONE gets the same criteria

EVERYONE is equal

Just because you have a difficult choice or a choice you don't like, doesn't mean you don't have a choice

283. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113264 by scooternyc on January 19, 2008 at 6:43 am

I don't know about you, but I tend not to put too much blame on the kid who hits back at the school bully. I do blame the bully


Maybe it's just the strong that don't need such defense and you only care about the weak?

Why look at that, I did figure out your thought process? ;)

284. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113263 by scooternyc on January 19, 2008 at 6:40 am

Fear not, Steve, I don't need defending, it was just an observation.

I'm a big boy and happy to laugh at the attempts to insult, it just makes it funnier to me that distraction happens with such action rather than logical reason for having a personal viewpoint

It reveals more about the person who does so without really logically making a point

It's kind of how I react to when someone says, "I'm offended" my response typically is, "yeah, well do you have a point to make"

I won't be responsible for another's emotions or feelings - fine to be responsible for what I say, but I cannot be responsible for how someone interprets something or whether or not they agree

285. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113258 by scooternyc on January 19, 2008 at 5:36 am

Paula, once again, you are not reading my posts, I should come to expect now through observation that you probably won't read this one completely either.

There's a difference between a handout and giving someone a hand.

Telling the guy on the street there are other opportunities for him, is giving him a hand.

Actually giving the guy phone numbers where he can reach said services is giving him a hand (trust me, they have the quarter to make a phone call or a police officer is happy to assist by just dialing 911)

I carry in my pocket a small card holder with information that a homeless person can use to get a bath, get food, get shelter, seek employment, get a haircut.

Do you know the response I often get when I offer this information? I even tell the person if they get off at the next stop with me I will lead them to a police officer to help them, an MTA worker in a booth with a phone or dial the number for them myself or I suggest they use one of the quarters in their cup for calling.

"F*ck you and your homeless shelter, I'm not homeless" or some other such diatribe regurgitated upon us all.

It reveals to the entire subway car that this person is not about improving his/her situation they are about just getting the handout.

And it's the same people, quite often, over and over again, we in New York can almost recite word for word their speech.

I won't be an enabler to further destruction of a person's life.

286. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113257 by scooternyc on January 19, 2008 at 5:25 am

BTW - Steve, I find it interesting that you chose to speak about how you perceive my "insults" but never spoke to the "inappropriateness" of others and their attempts at insults

In fact, I can't see one post where you came to my defense and denounced such behavior, can you?

Maybe it's just the strong that don't need such defense and you only care about the weak?

287. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113254 by scooternyc on January 19, 2008 at 5:23 am

Great Steve, then you enlighten us about why you chose to be offended and then we'll see if my conclusions are correct?

You go!

288. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113253 by scooternyc on January 19, 2008 at 5:22 am

Paula, you're post magnifies the fact that you read nothing from my previous posts

Please tell me where I said that we should not support those who wish to make a choice for something other than the destructiveness of their life - based on their desires, not mine, for living?

Are you so caught up in your cause that you can't even read the difference between giving someone a hand or giving someone a handout?

Where is the statistical data that proves giving money to homeless people is has eradicated such behavior?

You can't blame the government; they keep upping the dollars to said programs every year

Additionally, there are those who keep giving money to the homeless on the street, through churches and how has it created a level of success? Where's the data?

Where's the accountability factors? Would you give money to a broker and then be okay if he just said he spent it without any accountability to you for such money - you're hard earned money?

Are there anomalies of people who SEEK help, get it and become the rags to riches stories we hear? ABSOLUTELY!

But you HAVE TO WANT IT

HOW BAD DO YOU WANT IT

WHAT ARE YOU WILLING TO DO TO GET IT

A perfect story is the one of the book/movie The Pursuit of Happyness

Here's a guy who, through all his struggles, made it happen - it wasn't all perfect, it wasn't all roses, but he put forth an effort from which he reaped rewards

You don't want to follow the concepts presented by me and seek to understand their logical conclusions because it then doesn't support your own need to control others

289. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113251 by scooternyc on January 19, 2008 at 5:11 am

Paula - do you even know what reality is?

REALITY - choices placed before any individual by which a selction is made

THAT'S REALITY

Tell me how my statement above is NOT reality

290. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113250 by scooternyc on January 19, 2008 at 5:07 am

Steve - if the owners of this blog wish to rescind my membership - they have the personal freedom and choice to do so

Speaking to reality is not an insult

It should, however, be questioned about those who would seek to silence others because they are offended or seek to be offended

I refer you to the brilliant speech given by Christopher Hitchens on this very subject

You ought to ask yourself why you seek to be offended.

Why are you offended?

The most common answer is that people don't like something some has said and/or they don't agree with it

Well, boo f*cking hoo

I would never silence that person's personal freedom to say it

I want to hear all ideas and perspectives

You speak of respect on this blog or others, and yet the number of attempted insults or attempts to offend me outnumbers most probably the number of times I've used the phrase - emotionally unstable

Yet, where is your disdain for these insults

But, hey Steve, I don't care if someone wants to insult me, say whatever they want, about me, about my mother, go for it - it doesn't mean anything IF I DON'T PLACE MEANING ON IT, and I don't

The person merely reveals who he/she is and whether or not they can carry on an adult conversation of interesting dialogue, or just spew their insults

You CHOSE to be offended by a statement by having an emotional reaction to something someone said

Well, if I said you were a Nazi, would you freak out then?

Probably not

However, it is a rather interesting meme that goes through our society that those who get upset about something said to them are probably so because there is a portion of truth in the statement

291. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113247 by scooternyc on January 19, 2008 at 4:56 am

What would be an example of the former and how is it devoid of empathy?

The person willing to get education vs the person only willing to beg for money

I don't need empathy to support the idea that an education, be it college, trade, etc. toward self-reliance and self-support is a great idea or makes me "feel" anything

I realize that our world and the systems we continue to create give opportunity to every human being; some enriching, some - not so much

So, trial and error have always been a part of life - we all didn't just arrive here 2000 years ago

Not giving away education, as in everyone doesn't have to pay, but supporting opportunity that has accountability and responsible options afforded to it

I went to school on scholarships, grants and school loans. I still pay on the loans and glad to do so, it was an investment in furthering my own education about the world around me and enriching my life

As added bonus it has afforded me great opportunity to earn money, contribute to society, utilize goods and services which add the quality of others and their lives...and the machine goes on

The guy laying on the street, not willing to change his lot in life - well how come there isn't a list of people willing to take these people into their homes, feed them, clothe them, get 'em a bath?

Because no one wants these people in their home or apart of their lives - they'd rather just say our government should manage it.

Fine - we throw billions of dollars at said idea with no useful results, very little success. And yet we perpetuate it like we're all so caring

There's little accountability for these programs; they easily and often "fix" their numbers to get funding...

Will not there be some people who will die as a result of holding them accountable - yes - that's a REALITY - you can't prevent, nor should you, every death in the world

Sometimes you have to do what you can, make others accountable and then leave them to their fate if they want to CHOOSE other directions in life that YOU DON'T AGREE WITH

292. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113246 by scooternyc on January 19, 2008 at 4:42 am

Crackheads are willing to suck cock for crack.

Why doesn't their bravery get any credit in this society?

Bravery? On a subjective level, I personally wouldn't call it bravery. He/she would still have to be accountable for the choice made to such action and be responsible to him or herself if it leads to his/her demise

However, being that the individual is free to make his/her own choices - be my guest. At least that person isn't then begging for money or demanding his/her government to subsidize such behavior

And if "crack" is his/her thing, as long as the behavior is at no cost to others, have at it.

"You're so cold" - yes, yes, I know, you're just driven to control others behaviors - much like the religious and all their sanctimonious soapboxes

I wouldn't want that for any human being if that was a degrading situation perceived by him/her. But I will not infringe on the freedom or right of the individual to make that decision for himself or herself.

If, as some addicts do, come to realize they would like help, then the world is replete with such support.

Or, as I would tell clients, "look, either you get it that this is destructive to your life based on your desired outcomes that are not happening for you, or you die - you choose"

Did I desire and hope they chose life - certainly - it's the best lottery ticket out there - but once again, I will not infringe on the rights or freedoms of the individual to make that decision for him or herself

I will not insult others by absolving them of personal accountability and personal responsibility; I will not insult them in thinking that they are incapable of managing their own lives - I don't need to control others

It's why I support abortion at this point in our evolution

It's why I support free markets

It's why I support religions having their churches

It's about freedom and choice - making the life you want - at no cost to others.

293. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113241 by scooternyc on January 19, 2008 at 4:30 am

I suspect I have had more contact with the reality of real people with drug habits that you have.

In a p*ssing contest are we in order to credential yourself?

Got it.

Yeah, I worked with homeless population, did counseling for substance abuse patients(all substances and behaviors)marriage and family therapy; crisis intervention with the police department; incarcerated populations...do we need to go on - hell I could write anything about my background and you'd never know it, so what the h*ll does that prove?

Again, more distraction from simply addressing the points made or focusing on a subject.

Even the homeless guy on the street might have something worth saying; it doesn't mean we'd want him to be an ambassador to anything.

The level of people caught up in the veneer of others is really amazing. No longer is it worth having intelligent discussion, it's all about how "you feel" instead.

If you really were interested in an adult dialogue you would have just stuck to the subject and conversed back/forth to reach understanding of both perspectives and then...what! MADE A CHOICE.

Instead, as is often the case on blogs, the emotionally unstable, perceived potentates end up hijacking what could be an otherwise useful conversation.

294. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113238 by scooternyc on January 19, 2008 at 4:22 am

The reaction of oppressed groups throughout history.

Why that's like saying jesus was here just cause someone wrote it down in a book and said so.

BTW - when I awoke this morning I wondered if I made a choice to breathe all night while asleep or was it the parasympathetic nervous system that just did it automatically for me.

295. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113133 by scooternyc on January 18, 2008 at 4:20 pm

"Equality is what we give to each other to allow others the same choices. It is about allowing choice, not avoiding consequences."

Yes, each person is born free with the power of the same choices - interesting isn't that some people make certain choices and others make different choices

Somehow though you seem to have it in your head that if a person makes one choice over another they are not responsible

Or perhaps your victim stance is that not everyone is afforded the same choices

Yeah, they are and I've said this before, as well

How bad do you want it?

What are you willing to do for yourself to get it?

Someone mentioned earlier that the U.S. is replete with success stories of rags to riches – how bad do you want it; what are you willing to do to get it

There's an enormous difference in people supporting an individual in working toward self-reliance, responsibility and accountability

And just giving them a f*cking dollar to ease your conscience

296. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113130 by scooternyc on January 18, 2008 at 4:14 pm

"What your approach will teach them is that the ability to make choices is a false promise; nothing more than patronising pablum from the better off. You will make them justifiably resentful of authority. You will generate social unrest."

Really, where's your data on such claims?

297. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113129 by scooternyc on January 18, 2008 at 4:12 pm

Here, I did your research for you:

"A person can alter the rate of breathing and can even stop breathing for a short time. But it is impossible to voluntarily stop breathing permanently because breathing, like the heartbeat, is an involuntary activity controlled by nerve centers in the brain stem, the lower part of the brain. These centers are connected with the muscles of the rib cage and diaphragm, and they increase or decrease the rate of breathing according to the needs of the body.

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761570316/Lung.html

298. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113123 by scooternyc on January 18, 2008 at 3:52 pm

The guy who knows the absolute most about science who posts here regularly is Steve

LOL! Yeah, the guy who doesn't seem to understand the physiology of the body is the one who knows the most about science! LOL! LOL!

You're right, he's a brain wizard.

You folks don't get out much, do ya.

299. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113121 by scooternyc on January 18, 2008 at 3:50 pm

But the choices you have are molded by circumstance.

Yes, circumstances do present one with choices.

You are still accountable for taking ownership of the choices

You are still responsible for those choices

The spot everyone wants to go to is to excuse someone's choice based on the circumstance.

And yet, that individual still made a choice

Still is accountable

Still is responsible

Clearly some folks do not hold others accountable or responsible at all which likely is due to their own lack of both assets

It's easier to blame; it's easier to cry victim; it's just so much easier than having to face the facts of the choices that were before you and then own up to the reality that you created the circumstance by the choices you made

I know, "but what about the children" – yes, well who should we hold responsible for their ignorant parents who are even less intelligent than some on this site, for having children they can't afford or have no emotional capabilities by which to raise them

Yes, yes, they're just victims of circumstance

Then they grow up, of course no one teaching them about the power of individual choice in any given circumstance, because they've learned from mommy and daddy too easily how to blame others; how to assign responsibility to others

But, yes, yes, once again, they are just victims of circumstance

Why in the hell would anyone need to be accountable for anything?

However, then we start going down the road of rationalizing and justifying the "circumstances" for which we forgive or don't forgive someone

And who gets to decide?

What's the criteria for making such decisions?

There is none – it's all about how you "feel" and yet this ideology is called "fair" by some – it truly is astounding

Equality is just a platitude - it's all about how you can get away without consequences to your choices

300. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113113 by scooternyc on January 18, 2008 at 3:26 pm

and throwing insults at people rather than answering questions to be pretty close to "trolling".

Well, the insults are funny because people think they are either clever or offending; they are neither.