Comments by Nairb

Comment #246910 by Nairb on September 13, 2008 at 2:07 pm

Fanusi

Your point is based on the idea that before WW1 people thought that there would be no more major wars. Then they said the Great War would end all wars etc etc.

I agree humanity has a deep desire for peace.

But it hasnt fallen in our lap. So the question is will we continue to go in circles forever or is there a strong upward trend (with bumps)

The answer is there is continuous upwards progress.

You only need to look at the size of tribal society. 2000 years ago it was mabe measured in 100s or 1000s. Nowadays it is measured in Tens of millions. 300 years ago a region in France could go to war with another region. 50 years ago war was possible between european countries. Nowadays it is almost impossible to imagine.

Being extremely positive about human progress over the last 2000 and especially 100 years doesnt mean we close our eyes to the errors of the past.

252. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #246901 by Nairb on September 13, 2008 at 1:56 pm

Who would believe him if he said there was nukes in Iran.

Oh, I don't know - the Iranian mullahs, perhaps?

That is my point. The Iranian "Supreme Leader" would know for sure.

But nobody in the west would trust Bush.

253. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #246897 by Nairb on September 13, 2008 at 1:50 pm

Titania

I appreciate you views.
I cant say I know much about American politics. However the difference between republicans and Democrats seem significantly less then say the Socialist party and extreme right parties here or elsewhere in europe.

The risks seem mainly to do with what judge might die and who might get nominated.
(It is strange that ethical issues get decided by judges rather then by politicians directly making laws.)
In the end however the fear mongering affects a rather slim range of voter intentions. (No one is advocating a form of racism)

However Far right parties in Europe do try to use Fear to leverage votes for their real racist agendas. Happily its no longer effective. The Zeitgeist has moved on.

It is more this attepted use of Fear that I am referring to.

254. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #246880 by Nairb on September 13, 2008 at 1:21 pm

2389. Comment #246863 by BrandySpears on September 13, 2008 at 12:19 pm

Fanusi, Excuse me. Daniel Pipes is the author of "Why the Left Loves Osama" and he quotes and extolls Lee Harris.

BrandSpears

Daniel Pipes is a cretin of the first class.
He is one of those people citing 700 No Go zones in France where the Police and Army supposedly have given up control.

I live in France. And after Fanusi quoted him, I looked it up. I live in France and hadn't noticed these No Go zones controlled by sharia law etc!

He has a link to detailed maps - its all very impressive.

Except the French Term translates to Urban Regenration Zones. (You have to read French to know).In other words they are designated for extra funding....not No Go zones!!!!

To my surprise one of the maps showed where I used to live, I lived next to one and used to do my shopping in one "No Go zone" on a saturday!!

Yet this slippery guy was pontificating about NoGo Zones as an example of how France was falling to muslim fanatics.

So either he is :
an idiot or
a manipulative propagandist with an Extreme Right agenda

255. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #246867 by Nairb on September 13, 2008 at 12:33 pm

Fanusi

It is FEAR that is the Enemy. It is fear that is manipulated by the would be despots.Today people just switch to the next channel.
Except that, while this sounds reasonable, the facts don't agree. It doesn't explain the fanaticism that is sweeping once more through the dar al-Islam,

The glass is more then half full and filling up but I think you tend to see the glass as empty.

Sure there are some things that are bad. But no one would switch russia back 20 years would they? Who would turn India back 20 years. Or China? Look at the progress of Turkey the UAE, Morocco and Tunisia in the last 20 years.

The world is moving forward in leaps and bounds. Condoms are not illegal in Ireland and even Athiest books are blockbusters in the US.

It is hard for the fanatics to mount a sustainable Doom and Gloom campaign today. Never mind sell it internationally.

Even Bushs scare tactics have withered and died as the basis for his scarestories have become more and more far fetched and surreal. Who would believe him if he said there was nukes in Iran. He has cried wolf too often.

People get used to the fear, then forget as they get on with their real life.
Fear, as they say in merchandising , has a short shelf life.

PS
LePen tried the same scare approach in France 2 elections ago. I remember the little town with the highest vote were asked why they voted Extreme Right. They overwhelmingly said because there were too many immigrants.
Except .... there was no immigrants in that small town.

FEAR - Its all in the mind :-)

256. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #246854 by Nairb on September 13, 2008 at 11:53 am

Fanusi

Are you playing "provocateur" again?

These tired old ideas have been played out.

Civilisation does learn. We now know how to recognise fascism and its ideas in its infancy. As a result it is highlighted in its infancy. Instead of having wars we point and laugh at it on blogs and websites and it just crawls back under its rock.

The gloom and doom scare tactics by Hitler dont work anymore because everyone has access to 100s of sources of information.

It is FEAR that is the Enemy. It is fear that is manipulated by the would be despots.

Today people just switch to the next channel.
FEAR doesnt sell.

257. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #245858 by Nairb on September 11, 2008 at 1:18 pm

Fanusi

In europe as you know Patriotism = Nationalism.

This was invented in europe to replace Feudalism.An improvement. But it hasnt been exactly a 100% unblemished record. Which is why for the past 60 years europe has been trying more or less successfully to move beyond petty nationalisms.

Sure we owe a debt to society. Beeting unthinkingly on another society is unnecessary however. And this has often happened through Nationalistic propaganda.

258. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #245849 by Nairb on September 11, 2008 at 1:11 pm

1997. Comment #245838 by Roger Stanyard on September 11, 2008 at 1:03 pm

Patriotism = the last refuge of the despot. Dr Johnson.

Roger

I thought it was last "refuge of a coward."
Amounts to the same I suppose

Anyway, agreed with the sentiment.

Nationalism comes accross like the groupthink you find in Religion
Reminds me of the mantra - "4 legs good, 2 legs bad"

259. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #245824 by Nairb on September 11, 2008 at 12:51 pm

A lot patriotism and national pride in this thread. This is something that always makes me wonder if it makes any sense to be 'proud' of a country.

root2squared

Well said

When it gets into pissing contest with other countries - (identifying people with countries) it is really ridiculous.

260. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #245812 by Nairb on September 11, 2008 at 12:42 pm

"There were several Iranians who requested asylum. One was gay and was sent home despite the fact that he would face death (interesting since the British won't send a suspect back to the US if he faces death). The other a political dissident who begged not to be sent home."

We cant make blanket statement about UK policy on one tabloid story.
UK has a good reputation here, hence the queues at Calais.

Every country occasionally deports asylum seekers. I would be surprised if it was 100% perfect system. Its not like no economic immigrant from Iran (however worthy) feigned homosexuality or likely persecution.

261. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #245796 by Nairb on September 11, 2008 at 12:31 pm

And unlike one European country, we didn't run away when we got bombed as a result.

This is a misrepresentation.

Spain did not run a way. Being involved in Iraq was deeply unpopular in Spain. Like over 80%.
However the righwing government under Aznar was still reasonably popular because of its ecionomic success despite the Presidential antics of Aznar.

People were getting fed up of Azbnar. When the bombing occurred, Aznar tried to paint it as a basque bombing to bolster his popularity. It then came out that he knew it wasnt the basques but had hid the info.

People said thats enough and voted him out.

Thats what really happened. Spainish have been NOT Running Away against Basquie terrorism for a long time.

262. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #245736 by Nairb on September 11, 2008 at 11:37 am

You lot voted in Bush twice, not the rest of the world.

Yes and we lot voted and revoted for people like Blair and Chirac right ?

Nobody is really in position to point fingers in this subject.

263. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #245724 by Nairb on September 11, 2008 at 11:25 am

America is not the flavor of the month? What can I do, this must be in Europe, where "appease Islam" is now a national sport. So in that sense, I am glad the US isn't popular. But you are right, opinion of the US is poor, and its mostly the fault of Bush.

Lets make this clear. America was not the flavour of the month in the same way your sister/wife is not flavour of month after having an argument.

But even this is exagerating. France didnt participate in the Iraq war, the UK did.
But few in UK or France would really equate Britishness or Frenchness with the policy of their government on Iraq.

Also people have moved on ,Iraq is no longer an issue.

I think americans are becoming paranoid about being hated around the world. It just isnt true.
Even in countries that really dislike America , like Jordon, people do appreciate american business approach and other americanisms (see Pew studies)

My brothers children visited France this summer (the are Americans from Atlanta) and they asked me why europeans hated americans!
This is crazy!

Some perspective. When he finally resigned Jacques Chirac was hated far more in France then George Bush. 2% said they would vote for him again. But everyone was glad we stayed out of Iraq.

264. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #245266 by Nairb on September 10, 2008 at 1:07 pm

Switzerland has a very high proportion of hand gun owners (militia) and very low gun crime. The USA has (probably) lower ownership and more gun deaths.
Its not the guns, its the owners!

The guns in switzerland are related to the fact there is a citizens army and people are required to keep their army gun at home (without ammo I think). The guns they have arent exactly hand guns either (the swiss army isnt that optimistic).

So I dont think we can rule out guns being the problem yet.

265. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #245240 by Nairb on September 10, 2008 at 12:40 pm

I am against guns and never lived anywhere where I would be worried enough to evn think about geyting one. Despite living in Sharialand Paris (sarcastic)

But the data doesnt seem entirely conclusive either way.

In France and other countries there are as many suicides by fireams per 100,000 as there is in the USA. But a lot less in Homicides here then the US.

This doesnt seem to support the idea that guns are the problem since people have enough access to kill themselves.

This data comes from here so I dont think its biased in any way.
http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF01.htm

266. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #245209 by Nairb on September 10, 2008 at 12:19 pm

Now in the US people have an irrational respect for wealth, be it earned or inherited. So in that sense I am socialist... the money is either a product of your work, or it isn't. Just because my father was wealthy, does not mean I am entitled to be wealthy.

I may come off as a conservative, but I would rather live in a country like Canada, Sweden or any other than live in the kind of world a Republican would build.

Al
You are a socialist???

I think you need to go lie down, call a doctor maybe. You have been debating too long!

You did start to look kind of pale!

267. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #245202 by Nairb on September 10, 2008 at 12:07 pm

Al

I have been away for a while
You look older now....

Is this what the liberals have done to you!

268. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #245198 by Nairb on September 10, 2008 at 12:01 pm

8. There is nearly a 1 in 2 chance of anyone I meet i America being a creationist and a near 1 in 5 chance of being a 17th century stye religious fundamentalist. It's difficult to look people in the eye with that sort of culture around.

Roger
My brother works in IT sales in Atlanta. In one otherwise perfectly normal client site the client owner got his management team together and started a 5 minute prayer that the IT Hardware and software were good and would work well to help the business prosper.
My brother recovered, bowed his head, and prayed with them.

Apparently God thought well of it.
He signed the deal.

Imagine that in London or in Europe!

269. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #245193 by Nairb on September 10, 2008 at 11:50 am

Hungarian Elephant

I'm not quite sure how it all changed, but there's been a complete reversal of that position. It's now the people who insist that breath tests will close rural pubs who are the unacceptable minority.

This sounds like a rapture scenario. :-)

I have been to Ireland.....
mmm....what part of Ireland do you live in?

Have you been drinking while driving back from work today? :-)

270. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #244722 by Nairb on September 9, 2008 at 11:10 am

It seems like the term socialist has different meanings depending where you are.

In many countries in europe the centre left parties are called socialist parties or social democratic parties.

Socialism evolved from extreme forms to more middle of the road policies with mixed economies and endorsing democratic principles.

Those parties usually defend social policies more then the right of centre.

In general I think everyone can gain from good moderate social policies.
Admittedly it can go overboard, but when it does there is usually a correction like with Margareth Thatcher etc.

271. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #242816 by Nairb on September 4, 2008 at 1:45 pm

Following her speech , the way its being reported here is that McCain made an astute choice to make this election a fight about about "Republican values" again, about Obama's lack of experience and some good looks.

Also Mcain has come accross as a fighter and spirited upstanding guy from his time in Vietnam and staying independant from Bush when everyone else had their heads down.

Dont know if any of this is accurate ...
But it all sounds like Mccain may not be so bad ( vice presidents do nothing anyway)

PS: Also I think people who actually spent time at war dont glorify it as much. And they make better decisions then draft dodgers/war mongers

272. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #242153 by Nairb on September 3, 2008 at 12:34 pm

Lets not be too hard on US. Its not like we are a lot better anywhere else.

I remember after the last presidential election, everyone in europe had been hoping for a change from Bush and were deeply disappointed and irritated with the Redstate middle America getting out the vote and the blue states not getting it out.

There was a joke here in France

"Look at Bush being elected, people get the politicians they deserve" - *vigorous head nodding, thinking of the 50% turnout

" Americans got Bush"
".... and we got Chirac!!" *groaning sounds ... oh merde!

273. Atheists: The Last Political Outcasts

Comment #240362 by Nairb on August 31, 2008 at 11:43 am

Fanusi
OK lets take a simple model.

Assume 5 generations
Assume each is 20% of population. and each generation is 20 years.
Assume people who make children are in the 20-40 agegroup. Call this generation 2.
Existing childrean at this time in age 0-20 : call it Generation 1.

Now look at what happens in next 20 year period
So any new children born in next 20 years will be in a new generation : Generation 0.
They will progressively replace the Generation 5 ( those in 80 to 100) who are dying of old age.

So at a society level if this Generation2 has only 1 child - in other words the Fertility rate is 1 - then Generation 0 will add 10% to the population.
(each 2 person pair have 1 child)

In that time all of generation 5 will die. This will reduce the population 20%.
The net loss is 10% over the 20 year period.

Do you see it now?

Naturally when you change the age pyramid and vary death rates and Fertility rates you get some variability.
But never anything coming anywhere close to a 50% reduction in Population in a single generation.

274. Atheists: The Last Political Outcasts

Comment #240328 by Nairb on August 31, 2008 at 11:01 am

J.S. Mill's "Utilitarianism", Immanuel Kant's "Groundwork of the Metaphysics of Morals" for example are brilliant and timeless.

Mphil

Thanks. I will look them up.

I didnt know there was much theory on this.

Did they build anything surprising? Did they really figure out some independant way of building a moral framework.

275. Atheists: The Last Political Outcasts

Comment #240297 by Nairb on August 31, 2008 at 9:53 am

As some scientist once said.

"as we do further scientific study we can be sure of one thing. We will not find along with the Proton, Neutron, electron some new moral particle - the Moron"

"we will not be able to evaluate morality by counting the moral particles in different hypotheses to choose the best"

Seems to me morality is not real. Its just some rules of thumb hard coded into us.
We then try to extrapolate those rules on to a whole new set of analogous situations ( for which the hard coding was not created) with varying degrees of success.

Assuming "Evil" exists as an absolute in such a context doesnt make much sense.

276. Atheists: The Last Political Outcasts

Comment #240290 by Nairb on August 31, 2008 at 9:42 am

Saying there is a Moral Absolute is like saying there are No Unicorns.

You might be right, we could even agree, we could be 99% sure in some cases.

But we would never really know for 100% certain.

There can't be any Moral Absolutes no matter how much we agree about a given moral point of view.

277. Atheists: The Last Political Outcasts

Comment #240237 by Nairb on August 31, 2008 at 6:03 am

Nairb, could I finish off by asking one thing? I thought you took umbrage at my saying that a birth rate of 1.1 meant the population would halve in one generation, given that the replacement rate is 2.1. What's wrong with the math here?

I have explained this a few times.
Basically there is 5 generations.
Therefore if one is divded in 2 the population is reduced by about 10% over bthe long term.

278. Atheists: The Last Political Outcasts

Comment #239939 by Nairb on August 30, 2008 at 3:21 pm

Then there's the problem that fanaticism actually increases as you correct for literacy and wealth. Look at bin Laden as the example par excellence.

You are citing Bin Laden. I am citing the population of Europe.

My sample is bigger the yours.

279. Atheists: The Last Political Outcasts

Comment #239934 by Nairb on August 30, 2008 at 3:13 pm

4) Finally, there's the problem of the relative lack of will and capitulation amidst Europe's governing classes versus the vigour of Islamic identity.

Evidence?

I think I have shown how governments are well aware of demographics, saudi funding of mosques, underlying social issues for years.

The riots in France 2 years ago led to no new parties, no agenda, no manifesto, no even clear target other then the police.
No party has been created, no calls by muslim councils for any new or extra powers.Nor do existing parties support in a greater way any specific muslim demands.
It did not prevent the Headscarf becoming illegal nor did it lead to a big creation of mosques or muslim faith schools (there are 2 in all of France).

I see no capitulation in face of Muslim Identity.

280. Atheists: The Last Political Outcasts

Comment #239921 by Nairb on August 30, 2008 at 2:58 pm

2) I also think the study was being overoptimistic in assuming that European fertility rates would bounce back in one generation.

Studies have shown that people ideally would like 2,3 children. Lack of facilities and governemt support prevents them from doing this. Some countries implementing social services adressed this problem. This is why fertility rates have already bounced back in several european countries. Other countries notably Germany are implementing similar programs now due to evidence of effectiveness elsewhere.

Fertility rates declined rapidly over about 20 years, there is no reason why fertility rates should not recover equally rapidly, .Particularly if governments set it as a policy goal. Governements are highly motivated to make this work because they will be obliged to raise unpopular social security charges or extend working periods very soon otherwise. These unpopular actions will be necessary very soon, hence the motivation.

Finally the european report assumed Fertility rates to bounce back in only one scenario. If Fertility rates continued as they are and immigration continued as it is, it would take about 100 years for muslims to reach 25% to 30%.
But this is not the case. Immigration is declining and Fertility rates are aligning at the replacement rates.
Therefore the likely scenario is that muslims populations stabilise at less then 10% in Europe.

Not exactly scary : its less then the fanatics of LePen.

281. Atheists: The Last Political Outcasts

Comment #239908 by Nairb on August 30, 2008 at 2:37 pm

Yet while we could, and should deal with the ghetto problem, it won't stop what's bred there

In Europe the decline of religous influence is closely correlated with increasing education and richness. This has been occuring for 100s of years.

Muslims in France at least are as secular as the general populations. I would expect muslims elsewhere to align with the views of the general population also over time.

282. Atheists: The Last Political Outcasts

Comment #239896 by Nairb on August 30, 2008 at 2:19 pm

1) The study you cited referred to Europe as a whole. Now, it follows that there'll be variations within that, since some countries have very high Muslim populations, and others have less high ones. That means there's still a threat to individual nations, based on their own individual population numbers.

Fanusi
The variations from country to country are irrelevant.
The countries with the lowest fertility (Spain, Italy, eastern europe) rates have the lowest muslim populations.

283. Atheists: The Last Political Outcasts

Comment #239866 by Nairb on August 30, 2008 at 1:28 pm

4) I also suggest that there will be no end to the Muslim immigration of its own accord as long as Western nations are less of a basketcase than muslim nations.

The "Basketcase" economies of Europe have been tracking US economic performance since the 1970s/1980s.

Since the US has had a very dynamic economy I dont see how Europeans can be basket cases and Americans dynamic.

Before the 1970s the European economies were more dynamic as they caught up "for lost time" after the war after the devastation generated by the extreme right wing and fascist parties.

Immigration today is mainly asylum seekers and family reunions. As time goes by it is getting more and more complicated to come to europe as European countries reduce and change their immigration policy to reflect todays needs.

284. Atheists: The Last Political Outcasts

Comment #239859 by Nairb on August 30, 2008 at 1:18 pm

3) There is no attenuation of Muslim fanaticism as the generations pass. In fact, second and third generation Muslims are more fanatical than the first-generation. (This is really uncontroversial). This is fed by the expanding numbers, as it makes self-ghettozation easier, and that helps maintain what you could call Islamic ideological purity.

First generation immigrants are ralely fanatical. :-)
They have just voted with their feet , and bet their livlihood on a new country that they WANT to live and integrate in.

A very small minority of 2nd and 3rd generation CITIZENS are unhappy with their integration and financial/economic situation and express it as citizens sometimes do when they are unhappy.

It has obviously nothing to do with expanding numbers. If it did the greatest fanaticism would have occurred initially.

Ghettoization is due to social conditions and cultural affinity. Irish and Italian immigrants in US lived in ghettoes initially, as time went by these ghettoes emptied out as people left. There is no reason to beleive the same will not happen elsewhere.The national or nationalist purity of immigrants to USA was not maintained indefinitely.

There is nothing new to any of this. It has happened many times in most western countries.

285. Atheists: The Last Political Outcasts

Comment #239855 by Nairb on August 30, 2008 at 12:57 pm

1) Muslim populations in the West have skyrocketed thanks to large scale immigration and also demographic shifts (that's pretty uncontroversial).

I have already shown how inaccurate this remark is.

Repeating

2 variables impact Muslim Population
Immigration and Fertility rates

IMMIGRATION
The highest growth rates for muslim population growth occurred in the 60s and 70s due to huge REQUESTED immigration by euroipean countries for the dynamic economy of the time.

These immigrants were integrated without any fuss or great difficulty despite their large numbers.

Since then immigration has DECLINED accross all european countries as the econimies have no longer a requirement for additional manual labour.

Fertility RATES
All developing countries go through a phase of steep Fertility decline. Europe went through this a long time ago. Asian countries went through it recently. Muslim countries are going through it now.
Todays Muslim countries Fertility rates in Nort Africa are approaching rapidly the level of Northern European ones.As a result the HIGH growth of muslim populations relative to europen ones are behind us.

So this point is accurate for the 1960s and 1970s but is no longer accurate today.

286. Atheists: The Last Political Outcasts

Comment #239851 by Nairb on August 30, 2008 at 12:46 pm

2) Native Western populations are declining. The exact amount can be debated, but it seems pretty dire in some cases. Spain's birth rate is 1.1 per couple, which means that the population will halve every generation.

This is not true! How many times must I say this?

To say this you have to have misunderstood my detailed and repetitive explainations of demographics.

Again
A birth rate like this if it continues during 5 generations eg 85 years then it would cause a decline of 45% of the population.

If someone has a poor understanding of math then please refrain from quoting rubbishy demographics!

287. Atheists: The Last Political Outcasts

Comment #239451 by Nairb on August 29, 2008 at 3:52 pm

In France the extreme right wing party is Le Pen's National Front.
Unlike other european countries this party has more then negligeable support. Typically its support is around 10% in Presidential elections.

But in 2002 it went as high as 17% in the 2nd round of the Presidential election. This was due to a campaign by Chirac focused on law and order which had an indadvertant positive impact on LePens score and due to splitting of the left's vote amongst many candidates.

In the end Chirac was elected in the 2nd round runoff with lePen, Chirac receiving the highest score in the history of the Republic (82%) . In the first round LePen had 16%, Chirac 19%. The electorate participation was 79%.

In the 2007 presidential election LePen scored 10% which led to calls for his retirement.

Le Pen has been accused and convicted for denying the holocaust in France and Germany.

Excerpts of the National Fronts manifesto

The National Front posts a comprehensive political platform on its website. Amongst other things it argues for:

* A return to traditional values: to include making access to abortion more difficult or illegal; giving an income to mothers who do not go out to work; promoting local traditional culture.
* Greater independence from the European Union and other international organizations.
* The establishment of tariffs or other protectionist measures against cheap imports.
* Reinstatement of the death penalty.
* The end of Non-European immigration and the establishment of the jus sanguinis.

The party opposes immigration, particularly Muslim immigration from North Africa, West Africa and the Middle East. In a standardized pamphlet delivered to all French electors in the 1995 presidential election, Jean-Marie Le Pen proposed the "sending back" of "three million non-Europeans" out of France, by "humane and dignified means".[7]

Reaction to the LePen support by anti Lepen Republicans
Numerous spontaneous protests occurred on nights of 21/22 and 22/23 April in the major french towns.
* Wednesday 24 april : 60 000 persons in the streets.
* Thursday 25 april : 250 000 persons
* Saturday 27 avril : 200 000 personnes of which 45 000 à Paris.
* Wednesday 1er May :
o 50 000 personnes at the annuel march of Front National in Paris to support Jean-Marie Le Pen.
o Approx 1,300,000 marchers against LePen(according to Interior Ministry), more then 2,000,000 according to the organisateurs

288. Atheists: The Last Political Outcasts

Comment #239438 by Nairb on August 29, 2008 at 3:01 pm

For comparison with BNP Policy see below
Note : deportation of citizens who commit crimes

Democracy and Freedom

# abolish 'anti-discrimination' laws which prevent people from making a free choice.
# abolish all restrictions on traditional free speech; common law provisions against incitement to violence are the only proper limits in a free society.

BNP Policy on Immigtration
* deport all the two million plus who are here illegally.
* deport all those who commit crimes and whose original nationality was not British.
* offer generous grants to those of foreign descent resident here who wish to leave permanently.
* stop all new immigration except for exceptional cases.
* reject all asylum seekers who passed safe countries on their way to Britain.

289. Atheists: The Last Political Outcasts

Comment #239297 by Nairb on August 29, 2008 at 12:10 pm

Comment #239045 by MPhil

Great comment

100% agreed this term "Evil" is incomprehensible and used only to justify peoples otherwise dubious actions.

290. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #238695 by Nairb on August 28, 2008 at 1:34 pm

Now I know where this muslim demographic explosion shit comes from.

Hugh Fitzgerald of JihadWatch wrote an article on "Douce France" pretending how everyone is asleep while the French Muslims take over.

Another pseudo scientific plonker!

This is JihadWatch "quality analysis"

http://jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/002334.php
Excerpt

You discover that 1 out of every 3 babies born in France today is a Muslim baby. And that means, in 20 years, one of every three 20-year-olds in France will be a Muslim twenty-year-old. And that means, twenty years after that, at present rates of reproduction, France will have a majority Muslim population. Where shall we hide the statues from Marly-le-roi? And the Venus de Milo?

So in 2 generations Muslims jump from 5 Million to 60Million !!! Thats a 1200% Growth
While Egypt grows by 50% in same period!!!

And this is a detailed rebuttal if anyone is interested.
http://rfmcdpei.livejournal.com/408410.html

291. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #237983 by Nairb on August 27, 2008 at 1:29 pm

TWP
I haven't really seen any new points or counter arguments. It's getting redundant is all.

At this point I feel it's like trying to argue which color of blue looks best on a persons skin tone. Does that make sense? I wasn't trying to attack anyone.

Its not equally irreleveant for everyone.
It wasn't clear how many people would be affected.

Unfortunately its an idea that would sit neatly in LePen's agenda here in France.
Actualy its a bit extreme even for him.

In Europe Extreme right wing and fascist parties are not things you read in a book. They are for real and they are here in you neighbourhood and they ask and get people's votes at election time.

292. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #237972 by Nairb on August 27, 2008 at 1:19 pm

Fanusi,
I am tired of this too. I haven't had much sleep over the past week. But this is your proposal. And given its reprehensible nature it is difficult to just drop it and let it go.

2) I have defined the crime very clearely indeed.

Here are your comments

"When the renunciation of Shariah is required for citizenship, you can these goons and throw them out"

"The fact is that, in the UK for example, only about 33-40% say they want Shariah. We can't deport them all"

"Any form of Shariah leads to Shariah-supremacism."

So as far as I can see the confusion comes from you.

Note it is me that is trying to write down clearly your proposal

The crime ( as I understand you mean it)

Then people can :
- practice and advocate Sharia internally (in their heart so to speak as Al mentioned)
- practice and advocate Sharia as a way of life imposed on themselves
but cannot
- advocate that the state applies Sharia as law .

I presume by "advocating" you mean sustained and active attempts to have Sharia applied as law. Not an off the cuff comment in the coffeshop.
It does not mean an Imam cannot advocate that his listeners take on a life guided by Sharia
Expressions of belief are untouched

Is this right? Please confirm.

Now if My statement of Your View is accurate then this is better then what I thought.

However you are still doing 2 unusual things
1) Urging disproportionate and unusual even unique punishments on citizens
2) Limiting free speech

293. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #237892 by Nairb on August 27, 2008 at 11:34 am

O King

I request arbitrage on your chief Advisor's ill advised and illegal proposal.

*Si non j'organise un coup d'etat avec vos enemies revolutionnaires les mechants qomaks :-)

294. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #237888 by Nairb on August 27, 2008 at 11:28 am

Fanusi,
I've said this - umpteen times now - that we couldn't investigate everyone, though we could investigate potential troublemakers, and we'd get the worst of them. Yes, there'd be those who lie and hide their convictions and are driven underground - are we safer now when they can scream their intentions at the top of their heads and openly proclaim their intentions?

Fanusi,
The difficulty is that you have not defined clearly the crime.
You have mentioned above sole issues with lack of means
You have defined clearly the punishment �" deportation.

A defined penalty for an undefined crime is… well …tyranny

For example your remarks above is more a declaration of means or lack of it and clear and precise intent.

Despite our different exchanges which you have willingly engaged in, it is not clear whether we are talking about
• a big segment of the population or a tiny minority being guilty ( the means is a different matter)
• an actual crime/ illegal act or an expressed nebulous belief.(would you like to live under Sharia Law)

Please define clearly what the crime is and how you would differentiate it from something close but isnt a crime for you. That way we will understand the scope of the crime.

If all you are saying is that plotting actively an open revolt against the country is illegal �" then that is a different matter. But it certainly hasn't sounded like that.

295. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #237874 by Nairb on August 27, 2008 at 11:14 am

Comment #237445 by al-rawandi
Nairb, Quetz,

Renouncing Shariah would be tantamount to apostasy.

Al
Thanks for the much needed accurate factual input

296. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #237870 by Nairb on August 27, 2008 at 11:07 am

Coming back to Sharia ...

TWP
[sigh]

Out of all the ideas Fanusi and I threw around, we are still on the deportation issue?

To be fair nearly all the other points you and Fanusi raised (10 I think) are either not controversioal at all, ie good sense or only partly controversial.
Point2 : Stopping all immigration from muslim countries is quite controversial

But Point1 deporting citizens based on expressed belief is in a different category entirely.

Why?
It is a fascist type proposition.

And the last very big war in the Europe was about Fascism. And to be honest us moderates didnt win easily to put it mildly.
If both the USA AND USSR hadnt put in titanesque efforts together I think the outcome would have been different.

So this kind of comment is serious (40 million dead and Europe laid waste serious).

It is probably the most reprehensible proposition ever posted on RD.net

It deserves discussion.

297. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #237440 by Nairb on August 26, 2008 at 1:31 pm

Hold on

Not "saying the want to overthrow the state" is different to "renouncing Sharia"

I presume you are apostate if you renounce Sharia

What % of muslims today in the world have renounced sharia ?
Or what % of muslims have ever renounced sharia?

If the answer is 0% then you are saying deport all muslims!

Can you be clear on what the criteria is?

298. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #237431 by Nairb on August 26, 2008 at 1:15 pm

If sharia is the set of rules that muslims
a)apply as an internal reference
b)live out their lives according to
c)impose on others
Thats 3 different things before we get into what bits are interpreted strictly literaly or not.

So depending on what you ask them you may get wildly different answers.

Fanusi

*dryly* I wouldn't bother to ask. It's simple: advocate replacing the constitution with Shariah and loose your citizenship. Period.

This is quite different.
So you will not ask them a vague question like do you support Sharia?

They must express the will to change/overthrow the essential elements of the constitution?
I can relate to that being an issue, even if I would not go all the way in the reasoning you have for punishing it.

For me this is very different to asking muslims if they support sharia in any form they imagine it.
As muslims who are a) above are very different to c)

299. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #237416 by Nairb on August 26, 2008 at 12:50 pm

Comment #237266 by Bonzai on August 26

U.K and France, "Multi-Culturalism" seems to work in a perverted way complimentary to old racism because of the cultures already in place. In these countries, there isn't a lot of social mobility and that pedigree and origin seem to count quite a bit. Differences in social class, origin and accents tend to be magnified in these societies.

Bonzai
agreed with all this, except that for immigration policy, France and UK have very different approaches. UK has a "multiculturalist" approach and France an integrationinst one - hence the secular education curricula for all and no religous items.
It was put in place originally to ensure an orderly coherent response from the different french regions (Nation building) in our regular wars with our neighbours. I think it works better then a muticulturalist approach. It integrated very large numbers of immigrants to France from other european countries over the last century.
Its not doing great now but its better then people realise ( there was massive muslim immigration in the 60s , 1million in 1962 alone)

For a detailed look at immigration in France I came accross this from MIT which seems balanced
http://ocw.mit.edu/NR/rdonlyres/History/21H-221Fall-2006/F27307E6-F739-46E4-9CED-BA30DEE4BEE5/0/paper_muslim_eu.pdf

For a look at how they are integrating towards a seculary Nationalist identity see this Pew study
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/50/the-french-muslim-connection

You wont find the "fair and balanced" Jihadwatch quoting this too often.

300. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #237415 by Nairb on August 26, 2008 at 12:48 pm

503. Comment #237343 by Bonzai

Yes, I think its a key driver. I can't find the original document I read it in but below is a similar point.

"European Business summit (EBS 2008)
How to compete in the global ware for talent? To maintain economic growth and innovation, the EU needs to attract top talent from around the world. However, the EU gets about 5% of skilled immigrants as compared to 55% for the USA ."
http://greeneconomy.blogactiv.eu/2008/01/16/educationbriefing/