251. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #289246 by Roger Stanyard on November 23, 2008 at 11:17 am

Baron, er, can't agree with you on that at all. Millions have died in the name of "rational" political analysis. See Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, the French Revolution...

Rationality has its severe limits in the humanities. In the real world we still have to rely heavily on the subjective, hunch and intuition because there is no alternative.

Strikes me that what you are talking about is scientism.

252. Just a little jab, won't hurt

Comment #289241 by Roger Stanyard on November 23, 2008 at 11:05 am

LOL!!! Fundies rejecting vaccines against cervical cancer to "protect" their daughters!

Um, everyone knows that female fundies are "an easy lay". Basically they are screamed at for years that even thinking about bonking is a mortal sin. So they all, when the opportunity for the real thing arises, end up taking the view "might as well be hung for a sheep than a lamb".

As witnessed by Sarah Palin's daughter.

253. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #289231 by Roger Stanyard on November 23, 2008 at 10:50 am

"A completely rational society would be nice...."

Ugh! Shudder! I can't think of anything so utterly ghastely. It denies all emotion and intuition. Reducing such emotions as love to nothing more than mere reational explanations strikes me as about an ugly approach as one could get.

I'd far, far prefer to live in a society where my emotions and exploration of life run unfettered by absolute rationalism. Eeer, cold, calculating and unimaginative.

Give me the irrational fun of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy any day to some dreary book on the mathematics of 2LOT.

254. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #289227 by Roger Stanyard on November 23, 2008 at 10:39 am

I suspect that one of the big reasons why America remains religious is because so many Americans believe that it is top dog in the world as a result of being favoured by God over other nations.

A lot of Americans really do think they are more moral than the rest of the world because they have been ordained by God to lead it.

It's exactly the same bogus thinking (and arrogance) that the British believed in the 19th century when we were top dogs. Read the words of Jerusalem to get the point.

255. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #289172 by Roger Stanyard on November 23, 2008 at 9:18 am

Radesq - I suspect that coming out as an atheist is a big problem in the USA. Not so sure, though, about it in the UK. It's never been a problem for me not accepting religion. Then again, outside of Northern Ireland, the British are pretty private about their religious views and, in any case, only about 12% of the population practice religion. Indeed, effectively, belief in religion is collapsing. It's now mostly the old, I guess, who are religious.

256. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #289160 by Roger Stanyard on November 23, 2008 at 9:09 am

Sorry Baron.

Roger

257. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #289155 by Roger Stanyard on November 23, 2008 at 9:05 am

Hellene - Yes, the compassion thing is central to it all. It's significance seems to me to be grossly under-estimated.

PS, can't say that I am compassionate towards fundies - they are bloody jerks and habitual liars.

258. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #289148 by Roger Stanyard on November 23, 2008 at 8:58 am

Brian Scarpia; From memory of the membership of the British Centre for Science Education, which is predominantly atheistic, only two people to my knowledge are gay. It's not statistically significant.

It seems to me that whether the atheist community is, percentage wise, more gay than the population at large, is a red herring. Even if it is not, I can't see why it would be that important.

Perhaps someone might be able to help me on this but I don't know what percentage of the population is considered to be gay. I have in my mind that it is about 2% (1 in 50). Am I roughly right on this?

BTW, I never believed that it is 10% as someone in this forum stated over the last day or so.

259. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #289128 by Roger Stanyard on November 23, 2008 at 8:28 am

One of the things that has deeply confused me over the last couple of years about this forum is precisely what the objectives of the particpants are. Roughly speaking it comes over as an intellectual battle between religion and rationality.

What disturbs me, though, is the lack of any coherent political objectives.

My own battle is not with religion; in the broadest sense it is with religious extremism and specifically with creationism.

In either case I take it as a political, not an intellectual battle (yep, it has intellectual under-pinnings, I admit).

Seems to me that my battle is actually to keep fundamentalism out of the political sphere. In that sense, my under-pinnings are that everyone should have equal rights to puruse whatever religious opinions they feel comfortable with.

Fundies don't like that at all.

Their objective is essentially a theocratic state (with them in charge).

It seems to me that the whole issue of equal rights for all is exactly the same battle that anti-racists, the feminist movement and the gay rights movement have in common with my position on fundamentalism.

They are natural allies because we all want the same thing. A few words might differ here and there in the detail but, so what?

The big problem I have, though, is that a lot of mainstream religious types also have the same political position. As I defend the right of everyone to hold whatever religious position they feel comfortable with, as long as it does not affect anyone else's rights, they too are on side.

If a war is to be undertaken against the fundies (read cretinists as well), then I want to see everyone possible on side.

Some will find this intellectually impossible to handle. Well, my reply is, if you are fighting a war, that's not only a recipe for defeat, it is intellectual masturbation. The issue is about right and wrong in the political arena.

It's a bit like organising a strike for higher pay. At the end of the day, whether you win or not depends on how many you have on your side of the picket line, not what their intellectual position is. If you only have people who, say, are Marxists, on your side, then you'll fail.

260. 'Probably' the best atheist bus campaign ever

Comment #289021 by Roger Stanyard on November 23, 2008 at 4:36 am

Shrommer claims "How did Jesus physically rise from the dead?

Well, it's not the kind of thing that I've done myself to write a manual about it, and Jesus didn't leave us any step-by-step instructions or historical records either.

The body is something we inhabit, so if the spirit leaves the body, I guess it goes back in the same way it left, only in reverse.

How does a glove "come back to life" after the hand has left it? A hand goes back in."

Eyes Roll. Read a biology text book.

261. 'Probably' the best atheist bus campaign ever

Comment #289015 by Roger Stanyard on November 23, 2008 at 4:19 am

Shrommer, you are being facetious "Goldy, you are correct that none of the eyewitnesses of Christ's ministry and resurrection are alive today."

262. 'Probably' the best atheist bus campaign ever

Comment #289013 by Roger Stanyard on November 23, 2008 at 4:13 am

Shrommer claims "You don't have to believe the Bible is true to see that a lot of people who call themselves Christians are not following the Biblical model for the Church. When they make it into a manmade political institution, they are not following the words of Jesus that they say they believe in."

Oh, I see. A lot of Christians are, in fact, not Christians, notably "Catholiks".

So precisely why do you think you are any better than anyone else in deciding who is a proper Chriatian and who is not?

So precisely which of the 2,000 or so non-Protestant denomiations/sects or the 29,000 Protestant denominations/sects are proper Christianity? Which one are you a member of?

263. 'Probably' the best atheist bus campaign ever

Comment #289009 by Roger Stanyard on November 23, 2008 at 3:53 am

Shrommer, thanks for the "profound" banality - "The wheat and the weeds grow next to each other, Jesus said."

Here's one back: "Blessed are the cheesemakers (or any other producer of dairy products)."

264. 'Probably' the best atheist bus campaign ever

Comment #289008 by Roger Stanyard on November 23, 2008 at 3:44 am

Shrommer says "There may be believers in Christ in any and every political party and religion, working in all sorts of different jobs and for all different kinds of employers, with all different favorite foods and sports teams, with different views on ethics and morality, ... but no one earthly political party or religion (no one institution) can lay claim to all true Christians or to have for its members only true Christians."

So what? The vast majority of the world's religions have nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity.

Thanks for the banality.

265. 'Probably' the best atheist bus campaign ever

Comment #289005 by Roger Stanyard on November 23, 2008 at 3:37 am

Shrommer says "Jesus participated in the political system by paying taxes."

You have a very strange idea of "participation" in the political system. The place was an occupied country run by a dictatorship. The locals, except the coopted elites, were excluded completly from the political system.

Precisely where and when in the Bible does it say that Jesus paid taxes? How much? Where? When? IIRC, he preached against having wealth and money. He was far from being a money grubbng Word Faith evengelical pastor coining in millions.

Or was he another Kent Hovind?

266. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #288990 by Roger Stanyard on November 23, 2008 at 2:45 am

Ascaphus says "I suggest that the problem is really much more general. We are inclined to dislike 'others', and this poses a problem in our huge mixed populations. Some people are able, or willing, to recognize and tame this impulse in themselves, others either are unwilling or are goaded through the influence of religion or other cultural structures which thrive on exaggerating the differences."

In the case of Proposition 8, methinks you are way off.

This whole fundie/religious homophobia thing is just a latter day form of racism. The fundies lost the racism battle in the 1960s and homophobia has replaced it - just substitute gay fr black and the language is the same.

Moreover, the whole shooting match, as with racism, is highlyu politicised.

It's about a minority - white, not well educated, hetrosexual religious males against the freedoms of the majority - women, blacks, gays, the well educated....The bigots cannot cope with the idea that everyone should have the same freedoms.

Freedom threatens their religious position. It's Plato's old conundrum written in a slightly different way - does morality in religion come from society or is it external and ordained and determined by religious texts.

They cannot cope with the former. Yet it is blatently obvious that the former is where morality comes from.

267. 'Imagine No Religon' Billboard Only Lasts a Few Days in Rancho Cucamonga

Comment #288988 by Roger Stanyard on November 23, 2008 at 2:12 am

The creationists caught lying again ""Creation Scientists tend to win creation-evolution debates
As noted earlier, a majority of the most prominent and vocal defenders of the naturalistic evolutionary position since World War II have been holders of the world view of atheism.[139][140""

So why has the DI (and all the other cretinist organisations) been telling, under oath in courts of law, that creation science/ID has nothing to do with religion and can be justified by science alone?

No siree Bob, ID has nothing to do with religion.

To my knowledge, the cretinists have presented this poosition in at least eight legal cases before the courts (and lost every one of them).

As I say, fundies lie - out of necessity, habitually and repeatedly. It is the only way that they can sustain their position.

One of these days I'll come across a cretinist who understands the ninth commandment. I've been waiting a long time.

268. 'Imagine No Religon' Billboard Only Lasts a Few Days in Rancho Cucamonga

Comment #288987 by Roger Stanyard on November 23, 2008 at 1:51 am

Aquilicane says "As I pointed out in my post, I think if you give people something to imagine, rather than leave it up to their imagination to decide, you will have far greater success."

So just precisely how does one get this message across because, in this cae, the religites have effectively censored it.

They want the alternative to their viewpoint banned because they think it offensive.

This is not a matter of "public debate" in a free society about religion. It's a case of the religites trying to close down the debate.

It stinks. As I say, I think our attitude here should be one of tough shit to them. Their game is pulpit bullying.

269. 'Imagine No Religon' Billboard Only Lasts a Few Days in Rancho Cucamonga

Comment #288892 by Roger Stanyard on November 22, 2008 at 4:39 pm

Shaunfletcher says "If the company acted immorally or illegally then that would be a different matter (and if they breached contract presumably they face a penalty for that).. but I dont require others (people or businesses) to be strong in the face of intimidation, where the act they actually perform under that intimidation is not in itself harmful."

Well, that's your interpretation of what happened. Sounds to me more like a billboard company that has no balls or integrity that walked away when a bunch of powerless nobodies said boo to it. It simply failed to back its customer. My interpretation is that it is run by a bunch of self-serving cowards.

270. Atheism, a positive pillar

Comment #288889 by Roger Stanyard on November 22, 2008 at 4:32 pm

Jabber - all I can say is that the soup kitchen in Bristol is run by the stupid and arrogant.

By all accounts it is no different from the one in my town. No humanity, no compassion, no idea how the real world works. They think they are doing favours to "sinners" who should know better.

271. 'Imagine No Religon' Billboard Only Lasts a Few Days in Rancho Cucamonga

Comment #288888 by Roger Stanyard on November 22, 2008 at 4:15 pm

DP claims "Freedom of speech does not apply in business. If you walk into your job and say you hate jews and muslims, then you boss has every right to fire you even though you are using your freedom of speech."

Brilliant DP. So, er, the company you work for has the right to sack you or anyone else because of which political party they/you vote for or support?

272. 'Imagine No Religon' Billboard Only Lasts a Few Days in Rancho Cucamonga

Comment #288886 by Roger Stanyard on November 22, 2008 at 4:09 pm

Brilliant DP - Right and wrong in the USA is decided by how much monery one has and not personal integrity. Strikes me that this billboard company was in breach of contract in removing the ad. Stinks, doesn't it?

Are you saying that The God Delusion should not be sold in the USA because it offends people and is therefore not good for business? Yes or no?

273. 'Imagine No Religon' Billboard Only Lasts a Few Days in Rancho Cucamonga

Comment #288885 by Roger Stanyard on November 22, 2008 at 4:00 pm

"I think this comment is an insight to the counter-productive nature of FFRF's approach. Church going families, FFRF's target audience here, have been further alienated by FFRF. IMHO FFRF needs a smarter campaign manager."

Tough fucking shit that the religious and their children are offended by the inocuous. That's their problem and nobody elses.

What are you suggesting - that the non-believers should be even more accomodating?

274. 'Imagine No Religon' Billboard Only Lasts a Few Days in Rancho Cucamonga

Comment #288769 by Roger Stanyard on November 22, 2008 at 11:40 am

Aquilacane says "Imagining no religion congers up a very scary and bad world for many who read it."

Tough shit to them. So does religious fundamentalism conjour up a very nasty and bad world for many. Indeed, to many mainstream or otherwise religious people, fundamentalism is blasphemy and/or heresy and damned dangerous.

If the fundies want to get politicised, they should expect copious and vigorous criticism of all that they stand for. Instead, all too often, they just resort to bile and the insidious martyrdom complex about how persecuted and hard done to they are.

275. 'Imagine No Religon' Billboard Only Lasts a Few Days in Rancho Cucamonga

Comment #288751 by Roger Stanyard on November 22, 2008 at 11:03 am

I must admit I am disgusted with the behaviour of the religious people that forced the removal of the billboard. Nevertheless, they are their own worst enemy.

I've taken the position that in a liberal democracy it is everyone's basic human right to believe, practice and pursue whatever religious opinions they feel comfortable with. It seems that even this basic right is being denied by whoever objected to this billboard.

Good grief, this billboard is about as mild as could be in expressing someone's opinions on religion.

Odd, isn't it, that one's religious opinions in the USA are everyone's else's business but in Europe most people don't give a stuff about them. No wonder the Zeitgeist is changing.

276. I'm Not One Of Those 'Love Thy Neighbor' Christians

Comment #288744 by Roger Stanyard on November 22, 2008 at 10:50 am

Steve, I'm due at the Dublin meet in July but if there is anything going on in London beforehand, I'll turn up at that as well.

277. I'm Not One Of Those 'Love Thy Neighbor' Christians

Comment #288730 by Roger Stanyard on November 22, 2008 at 10:25 am

Steve, I just checked out your reference re Orion. During the 1980s I got to know quite a few people who had worked on project Daedalus (basically, it appears, an updated Orion). One of the key brains behind that was Alan Bond who, last tme I checked, was one of the few engineers left working in Britain who were still involved in spaceflight. I guess, though, he must now be close to or past retirement. From the 1980s he was working on SSTO.

278. I'm Not One Of Those 'Love Thy Neighbor' Christians

Comment #288727 by Roger Stanyard on November 22, 2008 at 10:14 am

Alas Steve, the British Space Society died a death after Margaret Thatcher pulled the plug on plans for the UK to get involved in the International Space Station and manned spaceflight (Hermes).

I did get to talk though with some very interesting people at the time including NASA astronauts and Roy Gibson, former director general of the European Space Agency.

279. I'm Not One Of Those 'Love Thy Neighbor' Christians

Comment #288722 by Roger Stanyard on November 22, 2008 at 10:04 am

Steve, up to a point. Maybe we do have the engineering technology but I suspect that we are lightyears off having the medical knowledge to allow people to survive for years in a zero gravity and enclosed space and provide healthy food and sustinance. Moreover, the issue also needs to address the deep physcological problems involved.

It's years, IIRC, since the Russians stopped their research on the midical issues involved in prolongued periods of space flight.

I was involved in the 1980s with the British Space Society on such matters and felt at the time that the whole issue of prolonged manned space flight was so problematical that even a manned mission to Mars was pie in the sky, so to speak.

Indeed I was far from convinced of the value of either the Space Shuttle or the International Space Station and nothing in the last 20 years has changed my mind, not even Hubble.

280. Bush set to relax endangered species rules

Comment #288718 by Roger Stanyard on November 22, 2008 at 9:52 am

Jan Chan And precisely what schemes and plans have you, er, implemented. Where can we read about them in the national press or in Hansard? What, er, resources have you got and how have you deployed?

What are your objectives, what is your strategy and what tactics are you deploying?

How do these differ from and are better than others we are using?

There are many in here who would be delighted to know of your successes in this matter.

Please do enlighten us.

281. Bush set to relax endangered species rules

Comment #288693 by Roger Stanyard on November 22, 2008 at 7:33 am

JanChan = our very own Adrian Mole, aged 18 3/4.

Now all we need to know is whether or not he is at Neasden University.

282. Bush set to relax endangered species rules

Comment #288581 by Roger Stanyard on November 22, 2008 at 3:24 am

JanChan claims people are stupid "Now for anyone stupid enough to not know where kangaroos are found, they only live in Australia."

Um, Kangaroos live outside of Australia. Try Papua New Guinea for starters.

283. The battle rages on in Texas

Comment #287983 by Roger Stanyard on November 21, 2008 at 4:37 am

"I went to a British public school - obviously I can't see anything wrong with a bloke dressed in female undergarments placing his penis into a vehicle."

True. Baxter Basics "the Tory MP who loves to dump his load" was doing it in the early 1990s according to that highly reputable organ, Viz.

284. I'm Not One Of Those 'Love Thy Neighbor' Christians

Comment #287929 by Roger Stanyard on November 21, 2008 at 2:07 am

Advice to 18 year olds - avoid fundies like a dose of the clap.

285. The battle rages on in Texas

Comment #287691 by Roger Stanyard on November 20, 2008 at 1:47 pm

DP: "The point you miss is that you won't have a choice of whether government has control over you or not if it gets to big. What are you going to say, "Well we will just elect people who won't do that"."

At the end of the day, yes. That's how democracy works.

What's your alternative?

The gun?

286. The battle rages on in Texas

Comment #287665 by Roger Stanyard on November 20, 2008 at 1:18 pm

Goldy - DP isn't that bright.

287. The battle rages on in Texas

Comment #287662 by Roger Stanyard on November 20, 2008 at 1:16 pm

Steve,

Another strategy I have used is to make sure I choose the grounds of the debate. I did that with Andy McIntosh on BBC Radio. Instead of debating science, I presented the case that he was damaging the education of students entering the university where he teaches, asking whether, under such circumstances, he was a fit and proper person to be in education.

The problem I have is that I am not a scientist but, then, neither is Andy McIntosh. In fact, when it comes to the core issues of biology and geology he doesn't even have O levels in the subjects.

(PS: He doesn't even seem to understand 2LOT yet he is a professor of thermodynamics!)

288. The battle rages on in Texas

Comment #287653 by Roger Stanyard on November 20, 2008 at 1:08 pm

Spock3 - We at the British Centre for Science Education have been following what has been going on at the Texas SBOE for a couple of years - the NCSE has given us some help.

Believe you me, many this side of the pond remain deeply disturbed about the matter as our own fundies have tried much the same thing - using help from the Discovery Institute and other US religious nutters.

289. The battle rages on in Texas

Comment #287644 by Roger Stanyard on November 20, 2008 at 12:51 pm

Steve, I have found the same problem. One of my online debating tactics is to show where they lie, point out the lying and confront them with their own religion.

Fundies lie, out of necessity, habitually and repeatedly so it isn't difficult to use this tactic.

It also helps to understand that they usually have a standard "plan" which runs something like this:

1. I am interested in science (a total lie) but I have some questions about evolution (they don't, so the 2nd lie appears).

2. They then provide some standard crapola lifted from Answers in Genesis or somewhere, all of which is at least 20 years old and has repeatedly been pulled to pieces.

3. They then ignore you when its pulled to pieces.

4. They then start preaching.

5. After being told to answer the questions put to them, the martrydom complex starts.

6. They then push off and start whinging in another group about how hard done to they are.

At one stage it was standard practice to have another stage which began "and another thing...."

I must admit I no longer treat them with kid gloves. My working assumption is that they are bigoted, lying bastards. I don't even consider them to be Christians.

Before anyone asks - I'm not religious at all* but I have no fight with mainstream religion - I'd rather have them onside in fighting the fundies than arguing over something that doesn't really bother me to much. As far as I am concerned, I want to live in a world where we can all hold whatever religious opinions we feel comfortable with, without let or hindrance.

* read what you want into that - Non-believer, atheist, never been convinced, Church of England...

290. Giving Up on God

Comment #287625 by Roger Stanyard on November 20, 2008 at 12:25 pm

Titania - "Good advice, Tyler. Last night DP popped up out of nowhere advocating shooting people."

Yep, looks like we have a hard line Nazi on our hands with DP. I missed where he advocated shooting people, btw.

291. Giving Up on God

Comment #287622 by Roger Stanyard on November 20, 2008 at 12:18 pm

Aquilacane - please accept my apologies.

292. The battle rages on in Texas

Comment #287620 by Roger Stanyard on November 20, 2008 at 12:13 pm

Evilcor is spot on. This is not a fight between religion and science. Science has won that hands down and there is no going back on that. It is purely a political battle against fundamentalist ideologues.

Ideologues never ever accept that their ideas are wrong; it's always the people that disagree with them that are wrong. The fundamentalists are bigots - always have been, always will be.

The Americans in here that are much more familiar with what is going on in texas might like to correct me, but it seems that the fundies have 2 strategies in texas:

1/ To frighten off the text book publishers from including evolution.

2/ To take the matter to the Supreme Court and over-turn Dover.

They appear to have learned a lot of lessons from Dover and are not making the same mistakes. They are much, much, better prepared.

293. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #287605 by Roger Stanyard on November 20, 2008 at 11:41 am

DP "Yea you better watch out before I goose step all over you."

When, where and how?

294. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #287595 by Roger Stanyard on November 20, 2008 at 11:20 am

Strewth, we really do have a hard line Nazi on our hands with DP.

shudder

295. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #287570 by Roger Stanyard on November 20, 2008 at 10:54 am

DP, you really are entertaining: "Well we all know heterosexuality is not a disease that needs to be cured, only being gay or being a socialist needs to be cured."

I propose that we appoint DP as the in-house RD.net forum honorary London Cabbie - our very own wingnut discussing points of topical interest.

As we all know, the only way to treat these commies/liberals/gays is to string 'em up.

296. Richard Dawkins: An Exclusive Profile

Comment #287476 by Roger Stanyard on November 20, 2008 at 8:40 am

Um "I am sitting here and laughing at the replies that you sent to my post. First of all, if I am talking nonsense, why are you getting so angry?"

Sounds like Wooter again. Hey GF Ferre, how would you like some Wooterbaiting?

297. Is Obama the Antichrist?

Comment #287473 by Roger Stanyard on November 20, 2008 at 8:37 am

Titania comments "I received an email from pbs.org today about their new clearance items. So I eagerly looked on the website and found an item for only $3.99 that I thought would be cool to watch with my niece and nephew. It was a video called Unlocking the Mystery of Life that had a picture of DNA on the cover. But then my bubble was burst when I read the description:"

Yep, that's the video that Truth in Science (aka Pack of Lies in Science), a cretinist group in the UK sent to heads of science departments at all British schools.

The DVD is basically backed by the Discovery Institute. Stephen Meyer worked on it. It's just fundie crapola. The people in it are nearly all the same bunch of wackaroons/crackpots associated with the Disco Institute.

We (the British Centre for Science Education) managed to get the issue raised in Parliament (through an early day motion).

Glad to see copies being sold at such a heavily discounted price.

298. Is Obama the Antichrist?

Comment #287398 by Roger Stanyard on November 20, 2008 at 5:40 am

Captain Mandate says "He [Satan] suggested to Eve that you shouldn't always obey without question..."

Um, correct me if I am wrong but it was a snake, not Satan, that convinced Eve to change her dietary habits. Satan didn't appear in Biblical history until somewhat later.

I'd ask a fundie for the "correct" biblical facts but none of them I have ever come across have ever read the Bible and also seem to be pathologically averse to reading and undrestanding the ninth commandment.

299. Giving Up on God

Comment #287387 by Roger Stanyard on November 20, 2008 at 4:48 am

Acquilicane claims that "Most of the world's architectural treasures are a result slave labour and indentured (or blind) servitude."

Really? I think you'll find that very few of them were. Sounds like you have a touch of the fundies about you - getting the "facts" wrong to match the ideology.

300. Giving Up on God

Comment #287384 by Roger Stanyard on November 20, 2008 at 4:37 am

JSHuey says "The truth is that the majority of Americans are conservative and/or libertarian in their politics and lives. They moved left this time because of the things you mention and more, but will shift back to the center-right as soon as they realize what Obama's economic policies mean to growth and jobs. The 2010 mid-terms will tell the story."

Wishful thinking. The repugs are living in a fantasy world if they think that all they have to do is sit back and "wait" whilst Obama fails.

The days of Reaganite/Chicago School economcis that have pevailed for the last 30 years are well and truely over and the writing for them has been on the wall since the start of this decade.

The Zeigeist has changed. The wingnuts better get used to it.