Comments by decius

301. What's wrong with science as religion

Comment #222470 by decius on July 31, 2008 at 1:02 pm

Comment #222464 by Oystein Elgaroy

It was privately revealed to me by the foremost authority on alien civilisations, Richard Hoagland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_C._Hoagland#Claims

302. What's wrong with science as religion

Comment #222454 by decius on July 31, 2008 at 12:43 pm

Comment #222444 by Oystein Elgaroy

As a dogmatic scientist, you are part of the conspiracy to conceal other ways of knowing from the people.
And as a cosmologist, you are absconding evidence of the existence of alien civilisations.

I wouldn't trust your word in this thread.

303. Breeding for God

Comment #222418 by decius on July 31, 2008 at 12:23 pm

Comment #222401 by Fanusi Khiyal

If it's choice between expelling those who voluntarily embrace a fascist and totalitarian ideology and watching the destruction of Europe

What a thundering false dichotomy, mate.

304. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222371 by decius on July 31, 2008 at 9:56 am

Comment #222370 by al-rawandi

Sometimes my curisoty is a bit pedantic.

Excess of granola in your diet. :)

305. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222363 by decius on July 31, 2008 at 9:28 am

So are you saying there is no point in speculating on the ancient origins of why homosexuality came to be such a hot topic even in today's political climate as a result of religious hatred of it?

No, I am saying that we have little chance to answer it with certitude because of the fragmented historical record. Evolutionary psychology is facing similar difficulty of general acceptance: too much speculation and too little evidence.
Surely, we can speculate and attempt to approach an answer.

it does more to dislodge the entrenched notion that there really is something morally reprehensible about it.

May be. I think that notion has already been proved morally bankrupt and unscientific.
We also know that homophobic religions have been the cause of its spreading for the past 2500 years.

Let's take the example of an hypothetical chain-letter causing widespread damage to society. If you want to stop its spreading, it is of little help to attempt and find which dead person originated it and why.

It seems more reasonable to intercept all travelling copies and to forbid further attempts to create more of the same, while teaching the public why the letter is harmful.

create homosexuality as a punishable offence so you can seize their wealth!

That's exactly what I meant.

It doesn't need to be necessarily so, though.

We have other egregious examples of absurd notions originated from a chaste of clergymen which cost as much as the destruction of entire cultures, not of just a minority of people within the community.
See Easter Island and the demise of its civilisation.

306. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222347 by decius on July 31, 2008 at 8:11 am

Comment #222333 by hawt4dawk

I claim no expertise in this field, so take this as a personal opinion.

There may be reasons to believe that environmental pressure and low natality rates have the power to shape the moral zeitgeist of isolated communities. Such is apparently the case with Inuits lending their wives to foreigners in order to boost genetic diversity.

However, with much more complex moral codes, such as that contained in the scriptures, this seems to me too reductionistic an explanation.
The stigma against homosexuality is laid out side by side with equally nonsensical rules against collecting sticks on a Sabbath, shaving one's beard, the making of graven images etc. All of the above warrant similarly draconian punishments.

I think this complexity can be better explained with a self-conceited power-hungry clergy, pulling shit out of their own arse and enshrining it into dogma.
Invent a crime, create a punishable offence and you will be able to lay hands on another man's wife and wealth.

If the newly-created religion is able to take over and spread as a memeplex, the original cause which gave birth to a particular dogma becomes immaterial as to why fresh generations of believers will blindly follow it.

307. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222281 by decius on July 31, 2008 at 4:49 am

Comment #222249 by Dr Doctor

Thank you.

I wonder if it has to do with going from multiple Gods who had more arguments, dust ups and bad behaviour than your average net forum to one god, and the requirements that "one god" places on "perfection". If indeed it does.

Polytheism - as intended by the Romans - entailed a willingness to accept and accommodate foreign deities, both for philosophical and political reasons, therefore acting as its own remedy against fundamentalism and intolerance.

A practical example is the cult of Isis, which spread in Rome to her full acceptance in the Pantheon of major deities, ostensibly with the building of lavish temples dedicated to her - after the annexation of Egypt.
This willingness to respect and honour foreign beliefs helped secure Egypt against popular revolt, while saving Pharaohs' face.

An interesting mechanism, partly responsible for this liberal attitude, was the idea of the Genius Loci, meaning the personification of rivers mountains etc as minor deities.
Superstition dictated that one had to appease them for good fortune. The unrelenting conquest of new territories involved a constant influx of such deities already worshipped by the conquered tribes.

As a counter-example, when the Romans conquered Giudea were faced (probably for the first time) with a religion unwilling to compromise and have its god ranked equal among other, and this caused their brutal reaction.

In case you don't mind reading in electronic format, Gibbon is no longer covered by copyright and the full text is available here.
http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/25717

308. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222234 by decius on July 31, 2008 at 2:58 am

Do we know that for a fact?

Yes we do. I can detail it, if you want me to.

Not that I didn't already provide strong references for comparing attitudes toward homosexuality in the ancient world and later in christian Europe, but I am glad to expand on it, if needed.

However, I suggest that you read Gibbon (The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire), particularly the chapter on Constantine. He was the first emperor to convert to christianity, although - contrary to popular belief - not the one who elevated it to state religion. Nevertheless, he began criminalising sexual promiscuity and other "unpious practises" , IMMEDIATELY AFTER his conversion. Read for yourself the description of the ensuing persecutions.

Because it is being used as an excuse. Take away the excuses through force of logic and you reach the inner person. If the inner person is still an irrational, deluded, homophobic "idiot" ( ;-) ), then they are going to have to think a bit for themselves and not prop their own prejudices up on the crutch of an established religion.

I almost entirely agree, there. Still, prejudices are cultural, and if the idiot grew up in hotbed of religious intolerance dominating his culture, you can predict with certainty which prejudices will affect him.

I share your passion for a good argument, and it certainly is a pleasure having it with you.

309. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222229 by decius on July 31, 2008 at 2:29 am

That sounds again like religion being used as the excuse rather than religion causing the homophobia.

I am not saying that homophobes didn't exist prior to the advent of homophobic religions. Let's not get bogged down in semantics, if possible. What I am saying is that said religions make it acceptable to be one and even demand it, while turning the exception into the norm. History really shows this clearly and beyond dispute.

Flames won't do it, but I can be convinced by evidence of cultures whose widespread homophobia pre-dates the inception of religious homophobic dogma.
Medieval Europe was for its greater part christianised by the sword of Charlesmagne, hardly a free choice of conversion, yet homophobia appears only afterwards.

It also answers it.

Then what are we doing here, fighting against religion? By your reasoning religion could be regarded as exempt from blame in all cases.

Edit- I'll look into the Scottish Play as soon as I have a minute.

310. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222220 by decius on July 31, 2008 at 1:56 am

Comment #222214 by Dr Doctor

Comment #222216 by Quetzalcoatl

Forgive the lack of clarity, I am at work and I will post shoddily for a while, if at all.

What I meant is that a religion whose tenets include homophobia can historically be shown as the reason for a particular culture to succumb to intolerance toward gay people.

Equally negative and aggressive sentiments can be created almost from scratch against both minority groups and behaviours perceived as eccentric, by channelling religious fervour and by providing metaphysical backing to ingroup-outgroup mentality.

Find me an instance of widespread homophobia in places where no religion demands it from its followers, and I will reconsider.

Please, Doc, provide a link to McDuff, I never heard of him.

Wouldn't it be more logical to say that if there was no mass homophobia, then an homophobic man added homophobic passages into a popular religion, does that make religion the cause?

We all know that religions are man-made, so this begs the question.

311. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222212 by decius on July 31, 2008 at 12:59 am

Comment #222203 by Dr Doctor

So my question is, is religion the excuse or the cause?
If the cause, why do so many non religious succumb to this mentality?

Religion clearly is the cause of homophobia, and this is very easy to demonstrate. Careful with hasty generalisations: homophobia does not equal demagoguery, although it spreads through it.

Look no further than the greco-roman world, or modern cultures (like Thai) uncontaminated by the abrahamic religions. You shall find that not only was/is homosexuality accepted, but even encouraged to stunning degrees, both in real life and in literature.
(e.g. Hadrian and Antinous, Eurialus and Nisus)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinous

312. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222095 by decius on July 30, 2008 at 3:08 pm

Comment #222091 by Goldy

I agree, it's entirely immaterial, except for understanding the local history.

The Oetzi fracas was nonsensical.

313. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222089 by decius on July 30, 2008 at 2:57 pm

Comment #222082 by Goldy

According to the Austrians it was also a case of importing lazy southern Italians to Italianise the region by Il Duce.

That refers to the region of Trentino Alto Adige, which was acquired after WWI as reparation from previous Austrian occupation of the regions of Lombardia and Veneto (it includes Verona), which are ethnically and historically entirely Italian.
Before Caesar conquered and annexed Cisalpine Gaul ( modern-day Northern Italy), the population was Celtic.

You have a point about Italians and Chinese. :)

314. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222081 by decius on July 30, 2008 at 2:37 pm

Comment #222075 by Goldy

The South and the North East were hugely affected by emigration because of endemic poverty, as you probably know. Nowadays Verona is a hyper-conservative place with draconian "decency" laws.
You can be fined 500 euros just for talking to a prostitute or for drinking outside a bar.

315. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222071 by decius on July 30, 2008 at 2:22 pm

Comment #222068 by Oystein Elgaroy

I will tell you the whole story when we meet, I promise. You shall be shocked, to say the least.

316. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222067 by decius on July 30, 2008 at 2:16 pm

Comment #222065 by hawt4dawk

Thank you :)

317. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222063 by decius on July 30, 2008 at 2:07 pm

Comment #222058 by Steve Zara

I see. I am from the Monferrato area in Piedmont, if that tells you anything.

318. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222061 by decius on July 30, 2008 at 2:04 pm

Comment #222051 by kkelly

Obviously, it is irrelevant to us too, in the sense that you imply.

Still, it can be interesting to know. Is it difficult to see why?

319. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222056 by decius on July 30, 2008 at 1:54 pm

Comment #222047 by Steve Zara

That settles it, I think. Giovanni and especially Giorgio were very common names in the territory of the former Republic of Venice (which has ruled over Dalmatia for many centuries), and they still are in modern-day Veneto.

By the way, if the Triple Entente had kept their word at the end of WWI, Zara would still be Italian.

Have you ever visited Italy or Croatia?

320. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222044 by decius on July 30, 2008 at 1:29 pm

Comment #222038 by Steve Zara

I am probably of Italian ancestry.

If that's the case, be grateful to your ancestors for having migrated away from the Theocratic Vaticalian Republic.

Also, I will refrain from calling you "paisa'" while reaffirming my friendship and respect to you, in spite that you might be a dago, after all. :)

On a serious note. If you want to clear that one up, there are specific DNA analyses for establishing with a degree of certainty the countries of origin of one's ancestry.

321. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222029 by decius on July 30, 2008 at 1:06 pm

Comment #222025 by al-rawandi

Nope, but I remember an old thread where the hippies got the brunt of your contempt for eating granola and wearing sandals. Two habits that I myself consider distasteful.

I am Italian, but I have been living abroad, in many different countries, for the past 20 years.

Edit - I read Moroccan for Morrocan. I don't know what the latter means. I apologise if I missed your point.

322. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222021 by decius on July 30, 2008 at 12:58 pm

Comment #222007 by al-rawandi

I have been trying to cut down on the flaming quite a bit

Consider also updating your avatar, substituting the hot-dog with granola.

323. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222011 by decius on July 30, 2008 at 12:45 pm

Comment #221900 by hawt4dawk

Now we see what Decius is up to. ;)

Oh dear. Caught and exposed by an holy alliance between a zealous meerkat and the islamic police.

Who could have imagined?

BTW Are you free on Friday?

324. Breeding for God

Comment #221677 by decius on July 30, 2008 at 1:51 am

Comment #221674 by Serdan

A year ago I would have agreed with you. Then I found myself in a position where I had the chance to actually interact with muslims and what I found was that the "moderate muslim" is an oxymoron.

I totally agree. Now for sure we will be branded as xenophobes and racists for stating the obvious.

325. Breeding for God

Comment #221676 by decius on July 30, 2008 at 1:50 am

Comment #221667 by Old Sarum

As a former advocate of multiculturalism - who had his mind changed by the overwhelming available evidence that there is something intrinsically wrong in the way Europe is handling minorities and integration - may I ask you if among those "millions upon millions of ordinary, civilised human beings" you include those who force the veil upon their womenfolk?

326. A Holocaust Denier Hits Manhattan (And Hearts Hitchens)

Comment #221328 by decius on July 29, 2008 at 2:03 pm

Blumenthal's animus and unfairness toward Hitchens explained by pettiness.

http://reason.com/blog/show/127786.html

327. Catholics To Pope: Lift Birth Control Ban

Comment #221318 by decius on July 29, 2008 at 1:57 pm

Gregg!

Welcome back.

328. A third of Muslim students back killings

Comment #221292 by decius on July 29, 2008 at 1:37 pm

Comment #221287 by al-rawandi

without redistribution in the form of taxation

This was the crucially missing part, which is what the "other side" is arguing for.

329. A third of Muslim students back killings

Comment #221282 by decius on July 29, 2008 at 1:30 pm

Comment #221278 by al-rawandi

But the redistribution of wealth will soon be in the interest of the wealthy (redistribution to a degree) because inherited wealth threatens the notion of earned capital.

On which planet?

330. Catholics To Pope: Lift Birth Control Ban

Comment #221098 by decius on July 29, 2008 at 10:38 am

Comment #221090 by thewhitepearl

Friendly, of course. It scored 1000 points nonetheless.

331. Catholics To Pope: Lift Birth Control Ban

Comment #221086 by decius on July 29, 2008 at 10:27 am

Comment #221073 by kkelly

and I've been in the laundry room

I have been there, too, but I omitted to look at or to pilfer other people's dirty laundry.

I always wondered how those who did look like, thanks for clearing that one up. :)

332. Catholics To Pope: Lift Birth Control Ban

Comment #221067 by decius on July 29, 2008 at 10:07 am

Comment #221055 by kkelly

Vaginas are yucky.

Such an incongruous comment henceforth disqualifies your opinion from rational discourse. :)

333. Catholics To Pope: Lift Birth Control Ban

Comment #221016 by decius on July 29, 2008 at 9:17 am

Comment #221010 by Cartomancer

Actually, I'm quite surprised religious folk don't bring up the Marquis de Sade more often

They succeeded in committing him to a mental asylum, therefore he is officially considered insane.

I recommend the movie Quills, an excellent piece of work on how De Sade managed to smuggle out literature in spite of his incarceration, and on his demise.
A bit of guess-work here and there, but otherwise accurate.

Edit- Geoffrey Rush in the role of Le Marquis is simply stunning.

334. Catholics To Pope: Lift Birth Control Ban

Comment #221003 by decius on July 29, 2008 at 9:05 am

Comment #220989 by Cartomancer

In order to combine incest, adultery, sodomy and sacrilege, he embuggers his married daughter with a Host.

A notorious sodomist, in order to combine that crime with those of incest, murder, rape, sacrilege, and adultery, first inserts a Host in his ass, then has himself embuggered by his own son, rapes his married daughter, and kills his niece.

Le Marquis

335. Catholics To Pope: Lift Birth Control Ban

Comment #220988 by decius on July 29, 2008 at 8:50 am

Comment #220965 by Cartomancer

Hmmm, I suppose you got that idea from the 120 Days of Sodom, even though your version is heavily watered-down.

336. Catholics To Pope: Lift Birth Control Ban

Comment #220929 by decius on July 29, 2008 at 7:38 am

Comment #220926 by Ishruul

Fascinating. Thanks.

337. Catholics To Pope: Lift Birth Control Ban

Comment #220895 by decius on July 29, 2008 at 6:58 am

Thanks, Laurie.

The trick is starting from the bottom - I think - where it makes sense at first glance.

338. Catholics To Pope: Lift Birth Control Ban

Comment #220885 by decius on July 29, 2008 at 6:48 am

James, after John had had "had", had had "had had". "Had had" had had a better effect on the teacher.

339. Catholics To Pope: Lift Birth Control Ban

Comment #220874 by decius on July 29, 2008 at 6:33 am

Comment #220871 by mixmastergaz

Christ on bike!

Nah, he would only ride an ass.

340. Catholics To Pope: Lift Birth Control Ban

Comment #220860 by decius on July 29, 2008 at 6:17 am

Comment #220844 by Ishruul

the priest was present in the room, looking at my grand parent to get on with it in the blessing of the lord.

When and where was this, if I may?

I thought that this practise was abandoned in the early 19th century, and it was in use only among the aristocracy for dynastic obsessions, prior to that. (There is a vivid depiction of a similar scene in the movie Marie Antoniette, for those interested).

I would venture to guess that the priest who attended your grandma's wedding night was a pervert who abused his position.

341. Catholics To Pope: Lift Birth Control Ban

Comment #220849 by decius on July 29, 2008 at 6:03 am

I warmly encourage those who haven't yet read The Missionary Position to repent, first, and read it, second.
Electronic copies are available for download, if I am not mistaken.

It's very short and one of the best insights into the damage perpetrated by the likes of Theresa of Calcutta. India is one of those non-catholic countries heavily affected by missionary zeal.

342. Catholics To Pope: Lift Birth Control Ban

Comment #220838 by decius on July 29, 2008 at 5:43 am

Comment #220837 by thewhitepearl

"Missionaries" and "charities" my fucking ass.

Ditto. :)

343. Catholics To Pope: Lift Birth Control Ban

Comment #220833 by decius on July 29, 2008 at 5:36 am

The phrase "catholic countries" isn't really helpful in this context, except in a very broad sense.
Situation, mentality and level of obedience to the pope on matters of sexuality can't be meaningfully compared between places like Peru and Italy, for instance.

Catholic doctrine of contraception does the most damage in third world countries which aren't even catholic, but have a high presence of missionaries and "charities".

344. Catholics To Pope: Lift Birth Control Ban

Comment #220825 by decius on July 29, 2008 at 5:18 am

Comment #220819 by Brian English

No, sorry. Italy is in serious economic decline and the population has been sinking into poverty at an alarming rate for the past two decades. The middle class is utterly disappearing, and the pro-capite public debt is the highest in the western world, second only to that of the US. Unemployment and precarious employment are on the constant rise.

You are probably confusing level of industrialisation ( declining too) with wealth.

345. Catholics To Pope: Lift Birth Control Ban

Comment #220814 by decius on July 29, 2008 at 5:04 am

Comment #220802 by Brian English

Condoms are readily available in most catholic countries and the majority of people doesn't give a toss about what the pope says about sex.

Italy's natality rate is the lowest in Europe, followed by Spain's.
The real problems caused by the church are other.

346. Catholics To Pope: Lift Birth Control Ban

Comment #220779 by decius on July 29, 2008 at 3:57 am

Why was Adrian B moved to the troll section? This is absurd, Morreale gets a free pass and Adrian has done jackshit wrong.

347. Catholics To Pope: Lift Birth Control Ban

Comment #220770 by decius on July 29, 2008 at 3:18 am

Comment #220768 by Brian English

In all its flavours (antiquity, tradition, common practice) - three instances of it in a line. Amazing.

348. Catholics To Pope: Lift Birth Control Ban

Comment #220767 by decius on July 29, 2008 at 3:00 am

Thanks Laurie for correcting the wrong date I gave.

It appears that the Encyclical Humanae Vitae - which is where the ban is contained - wasn't officially issued ex cathedra. However, the prevailing interpretation has elevated it to a de facto ex-cathedra status.

If you can stomach the duplicitous language hereby displayed in all its baroqueness, this sums up the situation.

What might be called the conventional wisdom of theologians over the last two decades is that the decision against contraception handed down in Paul VI's 1968 Encyclical Humanae Vitae belongs to the "authentic" ordinary Magisterium of the Catholic Church. That is, it is presented as "non-infallible" teaching, in which the Magisterium does not give us any absolute guarantee that the teaching is immutably true and therefore forever irreformable. This seems to be the view most commonly taught in seminaries and theological faculties, here in Rome as much as anywhere else.

A decade after the Encyclical appeared, the American theologians John Ford and Germain Grisez published a lengthy article arguing that this view is inadequate, and at best a half-truth ("Contraception and the Infallibility of the Ordinary Magisterium," Theological Studies, Vol. 39, No. 2, June 1978, pp. 258-312). Ford and Grisez reminded Catholics that according to the teaching of Vatican II (cf. Lumen Gentium: 25) there are three modes in which infallible doctrinal teaching can be presented by the Magisterium: by the Pope alone, by the Pope and Bishops assembled together in an Ecumenical Council, or by the College of Bishops (including the Pope as its head) even when they are dispersed throughout the world. According to Ford and Grisez, the Church's teaching against contraception is a classic example of this third mode of infallibility transmitting the doctrine of Christ. That is, while they do not claim that Humanae Vitae is in itself an ex cathedra, infallible definition, Ford and Grisez maintain that the teaching which it contains is infallible and irreformable, by virtue of having been taught constantly and definitively, over a period of many centuries, by a consensus of Popes and Bishops around the world - a consensus which was virtually unanimous until the early 1960s. Any single instance of affirming this doctrine might not in itself be authoritative enough to give us an absolute assurance of its truth; but the cumulative or combined weight of so many affirmations over an extensive period of time does give us that kind of assurance. An analogy might be drawn with a single strand of wire, which might be snapped without great difficulty in isolation, in comparison with several hundred such strands bound together into a thick cable. Their combined strength is now powerful enough to resist the strongest pressures. This sort of collective exercise of the Church's infallibility is commonly referred to as her universal ordinary Magisterium. Those who dissent from Humanae Vitae, or who at least have doubts about its permanently binding validity, have tended to ignore Ford's and Grisez' carefully argued and well-documented article. (Fr. Francis Sullivan, S.J., however, has criticised their thesis in Magisterium: Teaching Authority in the Catholic Church, Dublin, Gill & Macmillan, 1983, pp. 143ff. The present writer has replied to Sullivan in Living Tradition, No. 2, December 1985, pp. 3-6. Grisez himself has done so at much greater length in The Thomist, Vol. 49, No. 2, April 1985, pp. 248-287 - "Infallibility and Specific Norms: a Review Discussion").

In his recent work, Fr. Lio goes a step further than Ford and Grisez. He argues that Humanae Vitae does not need the supportive corroborative testimony of other papal and episcopal statements in order to assure Catholics that its doctrinal position regarding contraception is immutable and irreformable. In what may well be the most formidable challenge to dissent that has so far appeared since the Encyclical was promulgated nearly twenty years ago, Fr. Lio has amassed argument after argument, and document after document, to maintain that Humanae Vitae, art. 14, contains an ex cathedra definition of the intrinsic immorality of contraception: that is, an exercise of papal infallibility as solemnly defined by Vatican Council I, in the Constitution Pastor Aeternus.

349. Catholics To Pope: Lift Birth Control Ban

Comment #220759 by decius on July 29, 2008 at 2:19 am

The dogma of infallibility is a relatively recent addition to catholic doctrine. Before 1880 popes could overturn any decision of their predecessors by issuing an aptly named papal bull.
It should be noted that papal infallibility doesn't apply to all papal tripe. It is especially invoked to seal some theological pronouncements.

I don't think the ban on contraception was issued ex cathedra . I'll check it out and report back.

350. Catholics To Pope: Lift Birth Control Ban

Comment #220751 by decius on July 29, 2008 at 1:59 am

Comment #220749 by Steve Zara

Genuflect before clicking.