301. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #237413 by Nairb on August 26, 2008 at 12:47 pm

"Europe does not practice true multi-Culturalism, but a kind of "Multiple Mono-Culturalism"". Is there any wonder that Muslims stay in their ghettos?

So after all the moaning and groaning and breast beating about the terrible effects of Multiculturalism in Europe. -- finally we find it doesnt even exist in Europe !!!

This is too funny! :-)


Anyway, its is wrong however to link a Nobel prize winners Monocultuarlism to the "theory" that this is why they stay in Ghettoes.
I think anyone who has been to a high rise housing estate or run down town centre (so high % of immigrants) in UK or France knows immediately that the issue is Money.
Otherwise high immigrant areas would have the same revenue distribution as elsewhere (some nice houses, cars etc)

Adapting to a mono culture is not hard after like 2 or at most 5 years in a country.Its not the long term problem.

302. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #237335 by Nairb on August 26, 2008 at 11:03 am

Fanusi:
Of course. And yes, Shariah is central to Islam, but no, that doesn't mean every Muslim wants it. This gives us the legal mechanism to get rid of those who agitate for Shariah. You find a group that wants to impose it, it looses its citizenship (you can start with those guys from the Undercover Mosque documentary).

If sharia is the set of rules that muslims
a)apply as an internal reference
b)live out their lives according to
c)impose on others
Thats 3 different things before we get into what bits are interpreted strictly literaly or not.

So depending on what you ask them you may get wildly different answers.
Can you define clearly the question you would have to ask and give an idea of how many would fail the test without coercion?

If its the guys spouting hate speech in the video - you can potentially already press charges based on incitement to hatred. You dont need to deport such people. The law takes care of it fine.
If you are afraid of proselitizing they can easily kept apart frpm other prison,ers if they are convicted of something.

303. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #237331 by Nairb on August 26, 2008 at 11:00 am

Goldy, again...

So how come I don't hear of great Islamic problems in the US. I don't hear of US Muslims making a big fuss, not like in Europe

Well, it's because America is strong and Europe is weak.

:-)
There is a better explaination then that.

The muslims who go to the states are different. They are much better educated, richer, and often come from an elite in their home countries.

In europe the muslim immigrants were originally temporary manual labourers with little or no education. Demand for this has died years ago and immigration on this basis has been stopped. The current immigration is largely family reunion based (so often similarly skilled).


They are also less as a % of population

And yes also they probably integrate easier in country which they know from TV, where they speak the language and which is already highly multiethnic and multicultural and potentially less racist.

304. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #236954 by Nairb on August 25, 2008 at 3:10 pm

Fanusi
Thanks for your reply

3,5,7, 6 Not controvertial
4, 8, 9 10 seem slightly controversial but more of a realpolitik
11 ?

The first point where citizenship can be conditional on rejection of sharia law is controversial.


This is what I would like to see spelled out clearly.

Firstly , would revoking citizenship imply also deportation?
Secondly I understand sharia Law is interpreted varously but is always an integral part of Islam.

Therfore, if I take the proposal literally then it means basically all muslims. Or are you saying it is only a subset. If yes, can you define the subset?


So to make this as clear as possible so we can discuss it rationally - starting populating my structure

1.the accusation (sharia supporter)
2.the scope of the problem (all muslims?, ..?)
3.the method of judgement ( courts?, existing laws?, new laws? , state of emergency?,...)
4.the punishment ( revocation of citizenship, deportation also?)

I think this is accurate so far, tell me it it isnt.
? = I'm not sure yet

305. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #236782 by Nairb on August 25, 2008 at 10:09 am

JMac

Well put.

So what are the issues?

For me the subject is that a certain number of muslims are claimed to be a danger to society
for which deporting is proposed as the solution

This is a bit vague so I would like to define more precisely :
1.the accusation (what, who, when,...)
2.the scope of the problem (How many, its intractability, potential consequences)
3.the method of judgement ( courts, existing laws, new laws , state of emergency,...)
4.the punishment

As far as I am concerned the idea of deportation has very negative connotations - usually voiced by extreme righjt wing organisations. The kind (French and German) that deported a large number of jews from Paris in WWII for example. So my natural reaction is to find this utterly unacceptable.

However I am ready to at least listen to the argument and its evidence based justification.
I think you also should be ready to spell this out clearly to see if it stands up or not.

So TWP , Fanusi , I would ask you to define more clearly your proposition so it can be discussed on its "merits"

306. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #236408 by Nairb on August 24, 2008 at 3:16 pm

TWP,
Quotation of JihadWatch: "To violate Sharia or not to accept its authority is to commit rebellion against Allah, which Allah's faithful are required to combat."

So if all muslims have to follow sharia
And all sharia supporters have to be deported
That means that .... :-)

Is that what you TWP and Fanusi are arguing for?


Fanusi
Could you spell this out.
I'd like to know how many muslims need to be deported. :-)

Is it all muslims, aggressive jihadists, talking middle of the road jihadists like Tariq Ramadan, sharia supporters ?

307. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #236386 by Nairb on August 24, 2008 at 2:53 pm

Titania
I think in order to change the law for citizens to be deported, the Constitution would have to be changed,

Titania,
If I understand correctly this has not been done before by the USA

And that it was done internally by Britain and France (Australia and Devils Island) a long time ago? I supose we could add USSR's gulags.

Is this correct?

What I would like to know is :
Is it being done by any country today (ie in recent history?)

and

Is it against and Human Rights convention?


(sorry, but I am latching onto someone I hope has the facts)

308. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #236345 by Nairb on August 24, 2008 at 2:16 pm

TWP

Corrected in original post. I am not adressing just you but would be interested in youtr view.

309. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #236316 by Nairb on August 24, 2008 at 1:34 pm

Nairb : Do I understand you are not supporting deporting muslim citizens. Point?

TWP :
Yes. The extreme ones, and anyone that commits in a violent act as a result of Islamic faith.
This is what me and fanusi have BOTH been saying.

This is immaginable for immigrants convicted of a serious crime.
Would be interesting to know how this could be done for Citizens? Is it against Human Rights?
I presume its impossible today to deport Citizens from USA or elsewhere.

If you did it I believe it would be a global precedant?


Titania ,
do you know what would have to be changed to be able to deport a citizen?

310. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #236294 by Nairb on August 24, 2008 at 12:55 pm

Titania
do not want my country or the UK or the Netherlands or any other country to become like them

Titania welcome. Its good to see someone who knows this area posting.


TWP
Do I understand you are not supporting deporting muslim citizens. Point?
Or are you saying that you support deporting some subset of them, eg Sharia supporters

I just want to understand the key issue here.

311. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #236256 by Nairb on August 24, 2008 at 12:08 pm

Fanusi : Nairb forchrissakes, I just admitted that I'd made a mistake and thanked you for point that out in the above post. I was referring to Muslim parity.

In fact I hadnt seen your post when I reposted.

Brigitte Gabirel, and one thing I do believe is how she contrasts the humanity and decency of the Israelis with the barbarity of the Muslims.

Either the Israelis are getting failed grades in the propagand a war ( which I doubt) or this is stretching it a bit.

When someone gives a black and white picture like that of intermittant revolution, civil war and declared war I think you can bet she is not entirely neutral.


Fanusi,
I had a look at Jihad watch and Dhimmiwatch.
I think you need to crosscheck what they say. I wouldn't rely on them if I were you.

Also Hugh Fitzgerald has this to say
"
It is demographic conquest by Muslims that can undo Western Europe. This conquest can be headed off only by halting all Muslim migration,"

*sigh (How can people say things like this if the dont get math)

312. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #236110 by Nairb on August 24, 2008 at 8:47 am

And the July 2006 global Pew survey found that among Muslims, a quarter of Jordanians, a third of Indonesians, 38% of Pakistanis and 61% of Nigerians all expressed confidence in the mass murderer who founded al-Qaida.

This seems about right but there has been a significant decrease in support of Al Qaeda over the years.
Reason for cheer.

Muslims expressing any confidence in Bin Laden
Jordan 20% (56% in 2003)
Lebannon 1% (20% in 2003)
Indonedia 41% (59% in 2003)
Palesinian 57% (72% in 2003)
Turkey 5% (15% in 2003)
Pakistan 38% (46% in 2003)
Kuwait 13% (20% in 2003)

Source : The 2007 Pew Global Attitudes survey
Source - http://pewglobal.org/reports/pdf/257.pdf


Also the following link gives a thoughtful and detailed picture of muslims becoming fed up with Al Qaeda.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/special-report-is-al-qaida-in-p.htmls-850606.html


Also from Pew 2007 report - showing muslim opinion is a not just a hate you or love you affair.

A second set of encouraging findings is that even in Muslim countries where the United States is unpopular, there is often considerable admiration for some aspects of America. The American people are generally characterized as hardworking and inventive. There is praise for U.S. scientific and technological achievements. And even in nations where positive feelings about the United States are rare, many people admire American ways of doing business. For example, 51% of Jordanians, 48% of Egyptians and 40% of Palestinians say they like U.S. business practices.

Even larger decreases are found in support for suicide bombing

313. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #236092 by Nairb on August 24, 2008 at 7:50 am

decided to let in large numbers of Palestinian - Arab Muslim - refugees.
Now they have some of the highest birth rates on the planet, and when they reached parity Yasser Arafat combined forces with the local Muslims to wage Jihad against the Christians.

Fanusi, are you making this up as you go along? :-)
Surely you know the Palestinians did not reach parity with anything.

The Lebanese civil war was incredibly complicated withalliances forming and changing all the time and atttrocities carried out by all sides

Quote below from wikipedia. I suggest anyone jumping to any conclusion from Labannon should read this and a lot more first.

A number of atrocities and terrorist acts were committed by the Lebanese Christian Phalange as well as Palestinians and Israelis, all of whom participated in the war. These included the Damour massacre in which Palestinians massacred Christian inhabitants (between 300 and 600, mostly children and women) of the coastal town 20 miles south of Beirut, and the infamous Sabra and Chatila Massacre where Christian forces massacred around 3,000 Palestinian civilians and refugees during three days with Israeli forces' knowledge and logistic help."

314. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #236088 by Nairb on August 24, 2008 at 7:22 am

Fanusi

Your quote was

"The Beirut Center for Research and Information found that over 80% of the Lebanese population said they supported Hizbullah "

As I said this is misleading.

Fanusi :
It is also worth noting that Lebanon used to be 80% Christian

This is not accurate even 80 years ago. I doubt if there is evidence it was ever true.


The distribution of parliamentary seats among the confessions was based on the findings of the 1932 census; the ratio of six Christians to five Muslims, including Druzes, has been retained.
(Corresponds to 55%)


The government has published only rough estimates of the population since 1932. The estimate for 1956, for example, showed that in a total population of 1,411,416, Christians accounted for 54 percent and Muslims, 44 percent. The estimate was seriously contested because it was based on figures derived from a government welfare program that tended not to include Muslims

The palestinians did impact the population though not to any huge extent.

315. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #236042 by Nairb on August 24, 2008 at 4:35 am

In Lebanon six months ago, the Beirut Center for Research and Information found that over 80% of the Lebanese population said they supported Hizbullah.

Fanusi

You should perhaps review these stats in context and check the real dates.

Hezbollah is also a political organisation.
Hezbollah won 10% of the seats in the 2005 election.
They certainly do not have 80% support today in the population.
What you may be referring to is that 80% of lebanese supported Hezbollahs resistance actions in the war against Israel.

Its not the same.

I think if you read a little of Lebanese history you will understand why such high support is unimaginable.

For those who arent familiar with lebannon has about 22 different religous affiliations. No group has a majority or even close to it and there is constant reallignment of coalitions. The largest groups are Sunni and Christian (not shia, hezbollah is shia).

The current government is a mixture of sunni and christian and others.
The opposition is made of Christian and Shia and others.

316. Religion out of medicine, a new message for Ontario doctors

Comment #235755 by Nairb on August 23, 2008 at 1:48 pm

Comment #235196 by Jesus86
As long as individual doctors transacting with individual patients do not harm each other or anyone else, these MORAL decisions should be decided by mutual agreement between THEM.

You are suggesting that the doctor has a veto power on the clients legal abortion based on MORAL grounds !!( mutual agreement is necessary?)

This is illegal.And more fitting for Saudia Arabia I think.

The state judiciary decided the state's position of neutrality on abortion. It is entirely the womans choice.

And on what basis are doctors supposed to have a higher MORAL sense then the patient !!
The only subject a doctor is qualified to take a position different to the patient is on medical grounds!

317. Religion out of medicine, a new message for Ontario doctors

Comment #235752 by Nairb on August 23, 2008 at 1:47 pm

"The reason we permit a designated authority (usually a commitee eg CPSO) to decide on such matters is because it is more reliable then having a random single person decide."

All evidence to the contrary notwithstanding. (The overwhelming evidence is that the CPSO are a bunch of politically correct, protect your ass, self-aggrandizing busy-bodies. Like priests in lab coats.)

What I said is patently obvious and is a basis of all styles of government.

Perhaps you didnt it read it properly.

318. Religion out of medicine, a new message for Ontario doctors

Comment #235677 by Nairb on August 23, 2008 at 11:32 am

Hungarian Elephant

But if you have doctors not wanting to get involved in particular areas, that seems to me a rather different situation.

I am afraid I fail to see any difference. I will rewrite your example using similar but different roles of a client, an employee and an employer in the hope of illustrating my point.

Suppose a restaurant waiter is opposed to serving ham. If he actively obstructs a client in getting a (legal) Ham lunch, then I think that is reprehensible.
But it doesn't follow that he should simply have to follow centralised, standardised instructions. One alternative might be for him to state his problem and refer the woman to another restaurant who doesn't have these issues. For the sake of a minor inconvenience, we don't have to bludgeon him into submission.

What would happen to a waiter who refused to serve Ham?

My point is : in many if not all professions employees are faced with carrying out actions which are disquieting to them , there is no "opt out" clause for them.

Why should doctors be treated differently?

319. Religion out of medicine, a new message for Ontario doctors

Comment #235095 by Nairb on August 22, 2008 at 12:15 pm

What is your answer when a majority on the relevant committee of the CPSO becomes a religious majority again?

I think it is easy to see that what you fear will happen much sooner to modify individual doctors choices then to a comittee of respected doctors using scientific evidence.

That is why its a better approach to regulate carefully such important decisions then to leave them open to interpretation by individuals.


Also why do you think there will be a religous majority? Why do you think this would change anything? The most well respected are no doubt most likely to be athiest or at least secular.

320. Religion out of medicine, a new message for Ontario doctors

Comment #235070 by Nairb on August 22, 2008 at 11:54 am

How about aborting a phoetus not because the parent doesn't want a child, but because they desperately want a child and their own culture means they want a boy and not the "wretched" female inside of them?

Would you find it morally correct that all doctors respond in the same way to this?
Or would you prefer a marketplace on this moral decision. Voodoo doctors some who prefer girls, some boys etc.?

I think you would prefer uniformity.



For me the key principles/questions are
1 who decides
2 Should it be applied universally


Universality
In the above example and in many others (eg abortion) we would like the guidance or rules to be applied by all doctors in a Uniform way throughout society. If there is no universal option then there are universal rules that are expected to be applied to make a specific decision.

Who decides
The reason we permit a designated authority ( usually a commitee eg CPSO) to decide on such matters is because it is more reliable then having a random single person decide.

We expect the designated autority to decide only after extensive due diligence and analysis of scientific evidence.

When a doctor practices medicine he/she abides by this authority. The doctor accepts these rules or campaigns to change them or leaves the profession.

321. Religion out of medicine, a new message for Ontario doctors

Comment #234921 by Nairb on August 22, 2008 at 8:26 am

I have to say I am a bit astonished about the discussion on this. I really am at a bit of a loss to understand where this is coming from.

But I think there is a basic principle here. Religous/personal views should not modify our secular professional conduct when it affects others in the professional context.

I mean what next? Suppose I decide to join cult X and so I cannot work on Thursdays or I must be abusive to muslims. Should my employer (private or public) be forced to accept? It seems like the extreme end of multiculturalist thinking to me.


Steve
Agreed, I was tired. There is lots of things one can do to influence government.

322. Religion out of medicine, a new message for Ontario doctors

Comment #234917 by Nairb on August 22, 2008 at 8:18 am

But it seems quite a different matter to expect them to perform particular treatments regardless of their personal feelings about it - especially when the rules are simply being changed without their agreement.

Hungrian Elephant

Of course personal feelings are important, but their needs to be a Professional basis for a refusal to carry out the service you are employed to do.Perhaps you original christianity is influencing your view on this?

Imagine if the doctor looked into his crystal ball and said he could not do the abortion because he sees a wonderful future for the baby.
Should we accept this?

Regarding the rules being changed - I think they are simply clarifying what should have always been expected. But even if rules change - thats life- what employee has never encountered this. Ask the waiter in the local cafe or restaurant.

323. Religion out of medicine, a new message for Ontario doctors

Comment #234541 by Nairb on August 21, 2008 at 2:24 pm

Whether the doctor practices in a private or public context does not change anything.
He is espected to leave his conscience at the door and apply his medical skills only.

This is nothing new. It applies to all professions. I think we would be unimpressed if a plumber refused to fix a leak flooding your house because he cannot tolerate pipes made in North Africa.
As Fanusi said a long time back. If you dont like it you resign and do some other job.




I still dont see this big issue with the state. Jesus' poem on corruption and lack of responsability applies to any large organisation not just public ones. At least we have some control of the public ones.

If we dont like the state, their is not a lot we can do - other than vote differently. Perhaps you could suggest something.

We cannot just deport it to Saudia Arabia :-) Because in the end the state is you.

324. Religion out of medicine, a new message for Ontario doctors

Comment #232941 by Nairb on August 19, 2008 at 12:49 am

I dont see why people are so concerned by government.

Then you are no more enlightened than those who don't see why people are so concerned about the one true loving God.

God is a fictitious being who imposes unquestioned obedience to mumbo jumbo that amounts to bad advice

Government is elected by us and for us and we can and do evaluate its performance and change it at regular intervals.We use it to take a coordinated approach in building and maintaining society with the aid of science.

Did you spot the difference?

325. Religion out of medicine, a new message for Ontario doctors

Comment #232916 by Nairb on August 18, 2008 at 10:32 pm

The legal system is government run also.

Would it be ok for judges to use their "conscience" to set aside laws,legal practice or legal precedence when making judgements?


I dont see why people are so concerned by government.
Its elected by you, its role is to represent you and their is a whole set of machinery to ensure it is balanced and fair and applies scientific knowledge appropriately (FDA etc)

I would have more confidence in the FDA then on a single individual doctor.

326. We need to stop being such cowards about Islam

Comment #232688 by Nairb on August 18, 2008 at 1:43 pm

Mohammad's relationship with a six year old girl and doesn't use the word which must be running around all his readers minds. That word being paedophile.

AndyMorton,

I agree calling Mohammed a paedophile should not require courage.

But I dont see the point of this.
We are not sure Mohammed even existed. We are applying todays values to a probably non existant person who is supposed to have spoken to angels in the 7th century.

More to the point many of our kings and nobility in Europe were also paedophiles as they were married before our present age of consent.

Today I believe Muslim and christian countries have ages of marriage and ages of consent that are broadly the same.

So what is the point of focusing on this aspect of Islam. Isnt it going to be simply counterproductive?
It seems like a wasted shot to me. Surely there are areas that are more useful to attack?

327. We need to stop being such cowards about Islam

Comment #232680 by Nairb on August 18, 2008 at 1:29 pm

You cannot know good if you don't understand evil. And you can't feel honest love for the good without hatred for the evil.

The problem I have here is that it appears "Evil" is being personified.
The 2nd problem is that "evil" does not explain anything.
A 3rd problem is that it gives the impression "Evil" is an absolute. Yet it is easy to see from history that only a part of what we see as good or bad actions today were considered good or bad a few centuries ago.

Fanusi
You seem concerned by the holocaust. Can you explain how Germans who lived along side Jews for centuries did such things under the Nazis.

Germans I believe rightly say this kind of thing could happen anywhere.Isnt it interesting to understand the mechanism in Human Nature that leads to this.
I dont see how labeling it Evil behaviour explains or helps to predict or prevent such behaviour in future.
We may as well say Goddidit

328. Religion out of medicine, a new message for Ontario doctors

Comment #232602 by Nairb on August 18, 2008 at 11:36 am

When I see a doctor it is not for his "moral wisdom"/"conscience". I dont give a f*** about his morals.
It is for his scientific expertise regarding my physical health that I visit a doctor.

If his "concience" is a criteria for not doing his job then what next? His crystal ball, tarot cards ... :-)

His job and the reason he/she gets paid is to help people medically according to the rules, recomendations and best scientific knowledge of the profession.


Socialized medicine - (not sure what it means) seems to be getting a bad press.
My impression is most if not all countries have some element of solidarity built into their healthcare system.

In Europe I would say a large part of the cost of healthcare is supported by governemnet money and government run medical institutions.
In general these systems in Europe perform well.

See attached link to NYTimes on a comparison of countries.

http://www.mendocinohre.org/rhic/200708/nyt_medicalcare_20070812.pdf


I think the bottom line is how well the system is managed not whether it is "capitalist"/private or "socialist"/public.


***Edited fo clarity

329. We need to stop being such cowards about Islam

Comment #232014 by Nairb on August 17, 2008 at 12:50 pm

I agree "evil" has bad connotations.
Who uses the word "evil" the most?

Fanatics with their own communatarian power agendas
Individuals looking to justify revenge.

They are all that come to mind right now. Its not good company.

"Evil" seems to be used to present something that is bad or not so good as something entirely bad.
When something is entirely bad no one needs to use the word "Evil" to justify anything (as in the example reaction to a rape above).

330. We need to stop being such cowards about Islam

Comment #231888 by Nairb on August 17, 2008 at 9:20 am

How nice for you to think that a guy raping your daughter can't be labelled as evil.

I think in such a situation labelling someone as "evil" would be irrelevant to say the least.

It wouldnt be on any fathers task list.

331. We need to stop being such cowards about Islam

Comment #231869 by Nairb on August 17, 2008 at 8:41 am

Change may only come about in a generational time frame. It took centuries for christianity.

319. Comment #231480
Well, if that's the case, then all the more reason for us to have as little as possible to do with Islam.

What, exactly, has the discrimination against Muslims been? I hear an almighty stink when some kid throws a Qur'an in the toilet, but never a word when you consider the torrent of evil and hate that pours out of the Mosques everywhere.

Discrimination in the workplace for one. See the bbc study.
Throwing a Quran in the toilet is a media event. It hurts nobody. There should be a stony silence related to this, because its irrelevant. The noise is just Christians and Muslims creating a stage for themselves to spout their usual nonsense.
Best response is to ignore.

332. We need to stop being such cowards about Islam

Comment #231866 by Nairb on August 17, 2008 at 8:31 am

I think evil is a word best left with religous bigots.

Its too associated with stupid ignorant thinking or lack of thinking in the Quran, Bible etc

333. We need to stop being such cowards about Islam

Comment #231860 by Nairb on August 17, 2008 at 8:09 am

Fanusi
Good questions, this is the nub of the matter.

Be extremely firm against any extreme muslim thinking
Okay, and what form will this firmness take?

We can do lots of things. I would start with using Hate speech laws. Including inside Mosques. Where necessary then prosecute strongly with jail and financial penalties.
Unacceptable illegal propositions by any muslim should be a media event ie stoning homosexuals, adulterers etc.
If Muslim representative bodies do not officially condemn such practices then they should lose their right of association and be closed down.
Educational establishments (perhaps with large numbers of immigrants) should be required to teach civics, history and principles of democracy and seperation of church and state

Reinforce secularism and republicanism as a non touchable tenet of integration that has to be abided by.

All religous based courts - closed. I believe there is a jewish one in UK. Close it. Its redundant and mixes religion and state functions.
Immigration and and Naturalisation should have subject matter to be learned as part of the test. Examples: principles of western democracy, history of western democracy, principles of secular society, benefits, legal principles of both, Rights AND Responsabilities of citizens
Naturalisation of people in the country for a long period should require behaviour consistant with basic principles as learned above - (already done in France)

And how do we reinforce it and what do we do if they don't want it?

Immigration and Naturalisation processes can easily check for individual ability to integrate and reject applicants on the basis of criteria above. Today communists cannot easily enter the USA.
For citizens , its a different matter. It needs to be adressed through education.
A first step could be integration in the curriculum of classes on Democracy and individual rights and responsibilities in secular society
The amount of time on this can be increased if necessary and exams introduced as in maths etc.

Immigrants and their children are often now required to have language classes. Adding such classes to the curriculum is reasonable.

Islam is evil.

I dont get this. Evil means nothing to me other then kneejerk unthinking reactions. Even if is very bad, so is the OT. The issue is how it is practiced and how much people are influenced by it.

Infidels have to realise what is Islam

Agreed. But shouting at muslims that Islam is evil will bring you further from your goal.
1 It will cause the muslims to ignore everything you say. and
2 You will be perceived as a racist/extremest by many middle of the road people and
3 As a result you will not muster a significant number of people to do what you want.
In other words you will shoot your cause in the heart.

However introducing compulsory religous information classes would be good. Equal treatment of all major religions of course :-)

334. We need to stop being such cowards about Islam

Comment #231472 by Nairb on August 16, 2008 at 12:23 pm

Fanusi

Unfotunately from lonng experience the approach "state the facts, show the logic" doesnt work
I actualy love the approach. I like nothing better then arguing with a believer and burying all the usal arguments for religion.
But is it productive ? Never.

Here is how I believe this issue should be looked at and dealt with.
First recognise that there may be no way of convincing them.Change may only come about in a generational time frame. It took centuries for christianity.

I think muslims in Europe and elsewhere are simply looking to advance their own individual agendas. Unfortunately they mainly face descrimination in this regard in Europe and a corrup elite in their home countries. This lack of a social escalator isnt going to disapear for quickly either. So they turn to something that could help them. 30 years ago this was immigration or arab nationalism or socialism. All of these idealogies have failed them, Now they have started turning to Islam.
To resolve the issue we need to address the base problem. We must not let Islam be seen as a way to get legitimacy. However an arial bombardment of anti muslim propaganda will be like pouring petrol on a fire to put it out.

Th right appoach - and one taken to some extent by governments is :
1. Support the secular muslims and make them part of the solution
2. Do no appear biased. Show integrated and secular muslims as an accepted, lauded and welcomed part of society, Never attack Islam head on.
3. Be extremely firm against any extreme muslim thinking
4. Reinforce secularism and republicanism as a non touchable tenet of integration that has to be abided by.
5 Repress equally strongly and visibly any descrimination against muslims
6 Do not treat Islam as something special either negatively or positively
7. Make sure the social escalator is working and is seen to work for them when they are good moderate secular muslims

If we follow this approach I believe Islam will have withered to a shadow of itself in a few generations.

335. We need to stop being such cowards about Islam

Comment #231432 by Nairb on August 16, 2008 at 10:53 am

"But broad-based criticism of Islam by secular, white Europeans would, to my mind, only push Muslims to circle their wagons and fight against "racist infidels,""

I can see how this would make someone like Fanusi throw his hands in the air.
So if this means we cannot criticise Islam then I am with Fanusi on this.
However if it means we need a carefully adpted communication strategy to undermine extremist muslims tthen I would agree.

336. We need to stop being such cowards about Islam

Comment #231423 by Nairb on August 16, 2008 at 10:30 am

309. Comment #231355 by ColdFusionLazarus on August 16, 2008 at 6:59 am

Lazarus, I think you are missing my point.

My remark is sweeping.I am talking about the general case. I dont mean there is nobody in Europe that fears muslims.

I am comparing and contrasting it to the fear that some people express about europe going down the tubes... seriously.
I do this in order to establish some rational objectivity on the subject.

The 6 or 7 statements I cited above, I have seen mentioned many times on the internet, including on this site. Yet I never heard them cited by the British and French people I work with.

I think you would agree that as the millions of British and French go to work every day often through train stations bombed by muslims, their top concern is rarely the 2% to 7% of muslims.

If multiculturalism means not requesting immigrants to adapt to their host society and respect its fundamental values then I would say it is destined to fail.

Not sure if very many european countries push this approach to integration very far.

On Mohammed being the most popular surname. This means nothing on its own. If its a placeholder for how we are soon to be overrun by muslims then you can check my previous posts on the subject to see how ridiculous this is.

337. We need to stop being such cowards about Islam

Comment #231361 by Nairb on August 16, 2008 at 7:11 am

299. Comment #230345 by Goldy on August 14, 2008 at 2:52 pm
Sad thing is, in Europe we have the opportunity to ensure this separation can form, that Islam can undergo a European style reformation. Unfortunately multi-culturalism appears to have stifled the political will to do this.

Goldy
Being European I am too multicultural to stay "Bollocks!" to that. ;-)
EDIT : I think this multicultural complaint is a bit overblown. I think you would agree.

Amazingly muslims are beginning to identify to their host countries - See this link http://pewresearch.org/pubs/625/widespread-negativity
Even in multicultural infested, weak willed, sharia abiding no go zones where the muslims are breeding like rabbits and have surpassed the population of earth since yesterday morning at 2:42pm.

I know this is true because I read it in a casual comment section on a neo fascist web site.
There is no need for me to check for accuracy because they are always reliable for intelligent and profound thinking.

338. We need to stop being such cowards about Islam

Comment #231343 by Nairb on August 16, 2008 at 6:31 am

186. Comment #229991 by Border Collie on August 14, 2008 at 6:11 am
My fear, and that of many Americans, is that if Europe falls to Islam then we're next.

Border Collie

My advice is Stop Worrying. Dont waste your time. But stay alert for bullshit on the internet.

Stories of Europe's demise are greatly exagerated.


Lots of rubbish stories are being tossed about on the internet about poor Europe. For examle the following are all Untrue.
"We are going to be overrun by muslims"
"A majority of people will be muslim in some european countries in a generation"
"Our governments are blind to the terrible threat"
"Our governments are too multicultural to say boo to muslims"
"Sharia law has been introduced in some areas"
"Our police have lost control and are afraid to deal directly with muslim gangs"


Please note that the europeans actually working and living next to or with large numbers of muslims are rarely worried and have a far far more nuanced view then scare stories like above.

Its because they see the real thing.

339. Why Islam Is Unfunny for a Cartoonist

Comment #226646 by Nairb on August 8, 2008 at 1:12 pm

For those who are interested in being a bit more aware about some of the possible origins of extreme Muslim bashing you could do worse then having a look on this site I just stumbled over.

http://eurofascism.info/

340. Why Islam Is Unfunny for a Cartoonist

Comment #226624 by Nairb on August 8, 2008 at 12:38 pm

Fanusi



I had a look around in the internet for "No Go zones, France"
What I fouind was a lot of inaccuracies.
Dhimmi watch, Daniel Pipes, Jihadwatch, .... but the best was this
http://catholicgauze.blogspot.com/2006/11/no-go-areas-of-france-and-rest-of.html

It presents No go zone and a map underneath showing the ZUS.
It says .... 12% or 5 million people living in ZUS out of a total of 60 million in France ..
Its attention to truth and accuracy is equaled by its attachment to accurate math.
One of the links on the same page then leads to a page on a reputable paper which says nothing about the subject!

Under the map of Frances with the ZUS highlighted
It says "Some of the zones are governed under Islamic Sharia law." !!!
and

"Microstates in France are growing. " !!!






No Go zone is not what you get when you translate Zone Urbains Sensibles(ZUS)

As I said before a ZUS is an urban area designated as in need of attention - in education, housing, employment.

EDITED for clarity

341. The best way to undermine the jihadists is to trigger a rebellion of Muslim women - and establish energy independence

Comment #226299 by Nairb on August 7, 2008 at 10:42 pm

Heck, if people want to wear the niqab, I'm not going to argue.

I will. Its a symbol of inequality of sexes.
I think the state is right to take an active role in making "equality" happen.

Also in France and Turkey and possibly a few other places you cannot wear religous symbols in government buildings, schools etc

I dont think this kind of forced liberty or equality leaves people traumatised or anything.

342. Why Islam Is Unfunny for a Cartoonist

Comment #225922 by Nairb on August 7, 2008 at 1:58 pm

Also, Sarkozy said that the riots were well organized, which would explain certain postings on Muslim jihadist cites.

And here's a quotation from the Jerusalem post:

As some Muslim leaders have explained, what they want is autonomy in their ghettos. They seek to receive extraterritorial status from the French government, meaning that they will set their own rules based, one can assume, on Sharia law.

I think the Jurasalem Post would like to talk this up. No respectable muslim organisation in france has ever even come close to suggesting this.
It would be unimaginable to have a muslim organisation say this. We live in a Secular country. Thats a capital S.
You cant wear a scarf or a cross in school. Get the idea.

Thats why you will hear such rubbish quoted only in the Jerusalem Post.

343. Why Islam Is Unfunny for a Cartoonist

Comment #225902 by Nairb on August 7, 2008 at 1:36 pm

Goldy

262. Comment #225419 by Goldy on August 6, 2008 at 2:45 pm
http://www.soundvision.com/Info/misc/summer/sum.oldcount.asp

Good one.

Accurate figures are difficult to obtain due to lack of data based on religion; in France, for example, it is official policy not to collect such data.

Its true. The state does not collect this data. It shouldnt matter in a secular state what people get upto on a sunday (or saturday)
That doesnt mean a company likle Gallup or Pew cannot do a survey which can be highly informative. ANd they have done a lot on this subject of european muslims.

Small samples can give an idea of an overall tendancy. But to get good accuracy of some view held by say 10% of the population you need a decent size sample eg 1000 or even more people.
Also as voters we know polls tend to be influenced by many things : the lead up questions, recent events, etc etc

I agree before we believe some extreme idea about sharia support there would need to be considerably larger poll ( and a number of them)

344. Why Islam Is Unfunny for a Cartoonist

Comment #225883 by Nairb on August 7, 2008 at 1:14 pm

The EU study you cited assumed that demographic decline in the Muslim world would put a halt to immigration.

You misread it. There is no connection between immigration reduction and Muslim demographic decline.

I submit that it seems self-evident that Muslim immigration will continue as long as it is allowed and as long as Europe is less of a basketcase than the Muslim world.

Agreed


If we want less immigration we need to either
1. change the rules permitting immigration
2. wait for and/or encourage economic growth in the source countries.
3 do both

I am for doing both. We can, should and are reducing the number of immigrants - I have already posted this.
However this is different to stopping immigration.
You can maintain immigration for very close family relatives and maintain it for highly skilled professionals and still avoid being swamped by immigrants.


Immigration to a country is a sign of health and confidence and humanity of a country.
That is why the universal symbol of it is the Statue of Liberty in New York and why France gave it to the USA as a present.

I think we can admire countries for their self confidence and humanity towards immigrants rather then being fearful of it.

345. Why Islam Is Unfunny for a Cartoonist

Comment #225860 by Nairb on August 7, 2008 at 12:49 pm

Nairb : France does not have any no go areas as presented - actually strong, oppressive and in your face police presence has been identified as one of the sources of tensions leading to the youth gang violence in France in 2005/06

Fanusi : I'm sorry to have to flatly contradict you, but this comes from the French government:
http://i.ville.gouv.fr/divbib/doc/chercherZUS.htm

Fanusi

Actually you had me going there for a second!

I clicked on the link above and saw the list of areas. And to my surprise found a number of areas I know well!
I actually used to live in those areas and do my shopping on a saturday on one of those streets.

Now don't you try to deport me now!
I know my rights. :-)


"Zones Urbaines Sensibles
In your link if you read the title of the documents its says "Zones Urbaines Sensibles".

Its areas of towns which are a priority for development ! Not "no go areas" - at all.
The government telles the communes or towns what areas should be a priority of their town political action. Those areas get additional aid for regenerating run down quartiers. It often means public works to knock down old unused lots or buildings, putting in a new park, or business centre or small shopping malls.
For people starting business you can get significant tax breaks for setting up there.

If you dont believe me do a wiki on "Zones Urbaines Sensibles"
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_urbaine_sensible

346. Why Islam Is Unfunny for a Cartoonist

Comment #225820 by Nairb on August 7, 2008 at 12:03 pm

I was joking about Peak Oil,
That said I expect it will stay above 20 dollars a barrel for a while more.

347. Why Islam Is Unfunny for a Cartoonist

Comment #225385 by Nairb on August 6, 2008 at 2:03 pm

Al

I havent seen much data on Russia. What I have seen is that European TFRs are stable or increasing slowly from a very low level ( that they fell to about 20 years ago)

However Muslim rates are in very steep decline everywhere more so then any other group I think.
Their TFR is a lot less today then what people generally realize. See CIA Factbook and you'll be guaranteed a surprise if in any doubt.


Given what Russia has been through the last 20 years I am not surprised with their demographic change. However their economy is a lot better now and peak oil says it will continue... :-)

348. Why Islam Is Unfunny for a Cartoonist

Comment #225362 by Nairb on August 6, 2008 at 1:42 pm

Population Growth ( skip this if you hate math)
It is easy to see why no muslim population in Europe is going to double any time soon ( likely to take 50 years or more - maybe substantially more )

Since outside of bosnia I cant think of any country where they are close to 25% - no country will have this problem.

Below is the math set out (I hope clearly) so that anyone can convince themselves of the above. You can easily change the baseline scenario of children to check out how it effects the time for a population to double.
Just be aware that Ln is natural logarithm and is the inverse of exponential. You have both functions in Excel or any decent calculator.


What is the growth rate of a typical high birthrate population ?

Assume 4 generations in the population, each of 20 years.

Assume 30% of population are in the child bearing age ( 20 years to 40 years old )
Only mothers have children so half of this - 15% of the population have children.

Assume 2.5 children fot the Total Fertility Rate
So in that period of 20 years we have (15% X 2.5) new children in the population = 37% increase

Assume the oldest generation die off ( assume this generation is much smaller ie 10%)

So after 20 years - 37% are added to the population, 10% are subtracted.
This leaves a net growth of 27% over 20 years. The new population 1.27 times the original



What does this mean in Year on Year growth?
There is a simple equation to calculate it.
New Population = e to the power of rt
where r = rate of growth per year and
t = time in years
.
Plugging this into our equation : New Population = e to the power of rt
1,27= e to the power of r X 20 years
ln(1.27) =r X 20 years
0.23/20 = r
0.011 = r
So the rate of growth for our Population = 1,1%
For info for 3 children you get a growth rate of 1.5%


So how long will it take to double ?
Plug it the yearly growthrate of 1.1% back into the equation

Double population = e to the power of r X t
2 = e to the power of 1.1% X t
Ln(2) = 1.1% Xt
Ln(2)/1.1% = t
0.69/0.011 = t
62 = t

So 62 years for the population to double in our scenario of 2.5 children

Of course this assumes the TFR is stable over the next 20 years ( it is in fact decreasing everywhere in the world)

349. Why Islam Is Unfunny for a Cartoonist

Comment #225357 by Nairb on August 6, 2008 at 1:35 pm

On the subject of Europe, re-primitivization is still a very real, and very serious threat. I mentioned that areas of both Germany and France had already undergone this, a point completely skipped over by a certain person.

Its good to see a common set of values/actions being proposed. I am generally but not 100% agreed with all points.A bit tetchy on where problem 8 or 9 is going.
I just want to make 2 or 3 comments.


1. France and Germany having no go areas and French riots
France does not have any no go areas as presented - actually strong, oppressive and in your face police presence has been identified as one of the sources of tensions leading to the youth gang violence in France in 2005/06

Also please do not link this to some sort of muslim intifada.
I have seen no serious study mention that it was religion based. No muslim slogans, no muslim demands, no muslim political organisation came about in the period after, no support from leading muslim groups in France. The riots were not organised or preplanned. All pârticipants were between 12 and 20 tears old. They began due to the rumour that police did not assist 2 youths in danger of death when they ran up an electricity pylon to escape police.
This kind of gang violence has occurred before on a smaller scale. It never has been linked to religion.It has been linked to poor integration of immigrants.Not immigrants not wanting to integrate.
"re-primitivization is still a very real, and very serious threat" - Not sure what this means, its too vague, perhaps my fault for not reading all the thread.
I positively hate combinations of vague and threatening.


2. Recovery of European TFR in one generation
This is not so unlikely - in France it has bounced back from 1.6 to 1.8 due to state support in dfferent ways for child bearing, creches, tax breaks etc etc. Same as sweden and others
However the projection of 16% muslims in 2050 does not require this. It assumes no bounce back in TFR.

350. Why Islam Is Unfunny for a Cartoonist

Comment #223794 by Nairb on August 3, 2008 at 12:28 pm

Fanusi

More then welcome. Glad I could give you good news on Europeans and their future

Like you I hold them in high regard too.

With such a fantastic history to tell I am confident that europeans will for along time be contributing to humanity and humanitarian principles.