301. Neither intellect nor faith will save humanity

Comment #18497 by Luthien on January 21, 2007 at 9:30 am

"Just imagine for a second if a genie granted Bush an intellect as lofty as Richard Holloway's for 24 hours in place of the near-simian one currently possessed by the President. What would happen? Does intellect always breed compassion and humanity? Not necessarily. History has provided us with a handsome variety of psychotic killers with highly tuned minds."

Depends on your definition of intelligence. A fully rounded "human" intelligence requires the ability to empathise with our fellow human beings, as this is what binds us together as a society. I would say that intellect will breed compassion and humanity. Psychopaths / Sociopaths have a developmental abnormality which stops them from giving emotional significance to other people, and their intellect has nothing to do with this in the same way that intelligent people may or may not suffer from diabetes.

302. Ruth Kelly, her hard-line church and a devout PM wrestling with his conscience

Comment #18495 by Luthien on January 21, 2007 at 8:44 am

11. Comment #18483 by Ian on January 21, 2007 at 7:07 am
I'm fully in favour of the Catholic Church closing down all their adoption agencies. After all, they have already proven themselves not up to caring for children by their handing of the peadophilia issue."

Agreed.

The thing that breaks my heart is the thought of all those children that have already had to grow up without a stable home because of this bigotry. The fact that they would threaten to close over this issue shows they are quite clearly not fit to be responsible for the wellfare of any child.

303. Noam Chomsky Interview on Faith

Comment #18494 by Luthien on January 21, 2007 at 8:36 am

6. Comment #18456 by Zappi
"Chomsky never mentions they are anti-market communist groups that happen to use this version of the 'Catholic Church' as a way to reach as many people as they can. Chomsky is much too intelligent not to notice what he's doing, I wonder what his real political motivations are."

Yikes!

The so called free market only works if everyone has a fair and equal start. Forcing poorer countries to open up to imports only results in the market being flooded with cheap (and in the case of American produce, subsidised) goods that local farmers can't compete with. If farmers can't sell their goods they can't put money by when times are hard, and subsistence farmers therefore starve if their crops fail.

...and no, I'm not a bloody communist, it's just common sense to protect the vulnerable from the "free" market, in the same way that it was common sense for our ancestors to band together into tribes for survival!

304. Atheist Richard Dawkins on 'The God Delusion'

Comment #18281 by Luthien on January 19, 2007 at 9:38 am

Gosh, can I have that read at my funeral? ;-)

305. Can Jews and Evangelicals Get Along?

Comment #18091 by Luthien on January 18, 2007 at 9:05 am

"The idea that Evangelicals want to turn America into a Christian government is both alarmist and mistaken. For one thing, there is no Evangelical legal system like Islamic sharia. Evangelicals have an agenda, but it is largely the restoration of moral and ethical standards that have typified the U.S. since its inception but have been neglected in the last half century. You may disagree with this agenda, but it is not theocratic."

What planet is this guy living on? The "Evangelical Legal System" akin to sharia is detailed in the Old Testament (has he read it???), and involves things like stoning people for adultery. What are the 10 commandments if they are not "Laws" (or like the pirate code, are they more like "guidelines")?

Oh, and the moral and ethical standards America was built on were clearly secular (has he read the US constitution???), and the evangelicals are now erroding these values at an alarming rate.

306. Evangelical Scientists Refute Gravity With New 'Intelligent Falling' Theory

Comment #18087 by Luthien on January 18, 2007 at 8:51 am

RE: 42. Comment #18078 by David A Robertson on January 18, 2007 at 7:41 am

David, you didn't answer my comment. Which is it to be?...

(reposted from above)

"Wow - even when it is clearly posted at the top that this is a joke, the atheist fundies still manage to write in and express outrage at how stupid the Christian fundies are! The irony is delicious. "Had me fooled" - I guess it does not take much to fool some atheists...And this is meant to be an oasis of clear thinking???"

So you admit the "Intelligent Falling" theory is "stupid" then? Are you admitting that the idea that God would intervene in this manner is a "stupid" idea?

If you say that the God intervention theory isn't "stupid", then your statement that "it does not take much to fool some atheists" is not valid (if it was even slightly credible it would be reasonable for people to be fooled).

If you say that the God intervention theory is "stupid", then it must be equally "stupid" to just assume an intelligent force is at work elsewhere in nature.

I guess you don't actually have an answer then ;-)

307. 'God Is Not a Moderate'

Comment #18064 by Luthien on January 18, 2007 at 5:53 am

"The fact that the current pope freely uses terms like "reason" and "truth" does not at all guarantee that he is on good terms with the former, or would recognize the latter if it bit him."

Classic!

Regarding the following:

"As the Pope said last year, I believe that God is truth and truth is, by definition, reasonable. Science cannot disprove true faith; because true faith rests on the truth; and science cannot be in ultimate conflict with the truth."

Replace the word God with Zeus, or pink unicorn. Do you see how silly this statement is now? You can't just say "I believe that X is truth, and truth is reasonable therefore X is reasonable", it doesn't make any sense, its like saying:

"I believe that Hitler was nice. Most people would say that artists are nice and Hitler was an artist."

I'm sure no one would nod their head in agreement to the above (at least on this site)!

308. Evangelical Scientists Refute Gravity With New 'Intelligent Falling' Theory

Comment #18035 by Luthien on January 18, 2007 at 3:24 am

19. Comment #18026 by David A Robertson on January 18, 2007 at 2:35 am

"Wow - even when it is clearly posted at the top that this is a joke, the atheist fundies still manage to write in and express outrage at how stupid the Christian fundies are! The irony is delicious. "Had me fooled" - I guess it does not take much to fool some atheists...And this is meant to be an oasis of clear thinking???"

So you admit the "Intelligent Falling" theory is "stupid" then? Are you admitting that the idea that God would intervene in this manner is a "stupid" idea?

If you say that the God intervention theory isn't "stupid", then your statement that "it does not take much to fool some atheists" is not valid (if it was even slightly credible it would be reasonable for people to be fooled).

If you say that the God intervention theory is "stupid", then it must be equally "stupid" to just assume an intelligent force is at work elsewhere in nature.

309. Interview with Richard Dawkins

Comment #17887 by Luthien on January 17, 2007 at 9:17 am

RE: 2. Comment #17782 by Sancus on January 16, 2007 at 10:52 am

Sanctus, you seem to have focused in on the role of the Parents in your comments. I agree with you that children do not follow everything their parents say but this is only in the case where there are other people close to them giving them an alternative. The cliff analogy is an example of something that everyone in a community would have told a child, not just the parents. If a child's reality is controlled so that people are all telling them the same thing, they will 'believe' that it is true. I don't think Dawkins has made any undue assumptions in his analogy, his only mistake was to use the word "parents" instead of "everyone".

310. Christian Shrine Needs Two Exits, Israel Says

Comment #17867 by Luthien on January 17, 2007 at 5:01 am

Saneatheist says:

"Since god would never allow a fire in one of his churches, the church you mention must obviously not be one of his 'true churches'."

Perhaps we could determine who the "true church" actually is? Someone should compile the statistics on all accidents occurring on the "sacred ground" of every religious denomination. If there really is a "true church" they should have a clean record. ;-)

311. Atheist Outreach: Group Coaxes Unbelievers Into the Open

Comment #17861 by Luthien on January 17, 2007 at 4:31 am

9. Comment #17825 by Old Coppernose on January 16, 2007 at 8:18 pm

'I find the Catholic priest's comments a bit odd. - Does he think that athiests don't believe that "you are part of the universe" or that "you are not god".

This is either a weird definition of atheism or of religion, and i can't work out which - maybe both?'

"Theists are always coming out with this rubbish. Yes, they seriously do believe (or claim to believe) that atheists think they live in a vacuum and/or they think they are God.

They claim that one has to believe in a God in order to realize that one isnt God oneself."

Erm, but if you think you ARE god, you can't by definition BE and Athiest!

312. Christian Shrine Needs Two Exits, Israel Says

Comment #17851 by Luthien on January 17, 2007 at 3:36 am

1. Comment #17799 by Mel Z on January 16, 2007 at 4:01 pm

"If there was a fire inside the church near the door, people inside would have no way of escaping,"

And this is bad because?.....

Well, who will save them, eh? ;-)

Re. the lightning rods on churches comment, I seem to remember someone saying that was the first great victory of science over religion.

313. Wash. school board restricts Gore's global-warming film

Comment #17774 by Luthien on January 16, 2007 at 7:30 am

RE: Comment #17723 by DrShell on January 15, 2007 at 5:38 pm

Well said DrShell!

RE: 13. Comment #17773 by madpatriot on January 16, 2007 at 6:46 am

"Hey, I've got a new game we can play. The idea is to come up with sentences that are logically equivalent and equally nonsensical to this:

Condoms don't belong in school, and neither does Al Gore. He's not a schoolteacher.


I'll start:
Nuclear weapons don't belong in the zoo, and neither does the train. It's not an animal. "

"Condoms don't belong in school" is a way of saying "I'm a Christian Fanatic", therefore what I say after this is 'morally' right.

Oh, and "Musical instruments don't belong on the moon, and neither do zombies, because everyone knows the moon is made of cheese"

314. Lil' Markie live, part 2

Comment #17622 by Luthien on January 15, 2007 at 6:52 am

4. Comment #17597 by Logicel on January 15, 2007 at 4:26 am

"Hey, Fox, I don't think you or some in your audience should eat ANY cookies until you get down to a healthy weight."

Yeh, and none of that "Mc Donalds" food he mentions either (are they paying him, or did he once work as "Ronald"?).

Seriously though, the police should search his home for a "dungeon" hidden behind his portrait (Donnie Darko reference).

315. Creationism Song

Comment #17585 by Luthien on January 15, 2007 at 2:14 am

Disturbing, but a pretty standard technique for religious brainwashing. I remember having to repeat religious 'beliefs' over and over again at school, and I know my mother had her arms beaten black and blue at school for forgetting the words to a prayer (she was only 7).

One little girl in the front row looked a little embarassed to be singing it, so perhaps the sheer "cheeseyness" of the song might put some of them off it (wishful thinking I know).

316. Copy of The God Delusion Purchased for $20,000

Comment #17506 by Luthien on January 14, 2007 at 7:45 am

5. Comment #17445 by DavidJMH on January 13, 2007 at 7:18 pm
"Ladies and Gentlemen,
I know it is difficult to categorize Humanists, Atheists etc. but how would it be for us to have a universal symbol of unity, something simple and easily recognizable to others. It could be made into a small lapel pin, broach, tie pin etc. I don't mean a badge. The Christians have a cross, Islam a crescent moon although they do not wear it often.
Perhaps Richard Dawkins could come up with an evolutionary idea and promote it on this website. For what it is worth, I humbly propose the Double Helix; what is more universal or symbolic of reason than that."

What about a fractal? It is infinite, natural and described via mathematics. Many things, from coastlines to plants can be described by fractals.

317. For Human Eyes Only

Comment #17398 by Luthien on January 13, 2007 at 8:53 am

3. Comment #17393 by JohnC on January 13, 2007 at 8:24 am
"Certainly fascinating! But the almost irresistible temptation to start spinning Just-So stories from such data should be firmly resisted. First, there are two differences mentioned: 1. difference in visible white of eye 2. Attention from infancy to direction of gaze rather than head. And the second provides the "confirmatory" evidence upon which the further speculations are launched."

I was reading an article (I think it was in New Scientist?) not that long ago about an experiment where the subjects had to look at photographs of human faces, with lights on either side. When a light switched on they had to register it with a button press. The study found that women performed much worse than men at this task, but only if the person in the photograph was looking in the opposite direction to the side where the light was switched on. It seems that women in particular have an unconcious tendancy to follow the gaze of the person they are looking at.

There is also a great deal of evidence that women have a stronger tendancy towards cooperation than men. This "reflex" to follow someone elses gaze would not be possible without the evolution of the whites of our eyes. If women do it more, and are also better at cooperation, there is a possibility that they could use gender difference to determine if the "cooperative eye hypothesis" is correct.

318. You come up here and say that, Dawkins!

Comment #17390 by Luthien on January 13, 2007 at 7:54 am

6. Comment #17290 by Duff on January 12, 2007 at 5:46 pm
"He is not only bald and fat, but he's also old. What's with that?"

Yes, isn't he like 6,000 years old or something? :P

319. FiveLive debate on faith and discrimination

Comment #17385 by Luthien on January 13, 2007 at 7:26 am

"Jesus was very friendly with prostitutes"

Priceless, must remember that one :D

320. Judge: Men can seek damages from church

Comment #17211 by Luthien on January 12, 2007 at 2:06 am

4. Comment #17209 by Logicel on January 12, 2007 at 1:50 am

"The Vatican is a festering pustule that needs to be popped."

Hehe, nice one! ...and very poetic too ;-)

321. Halting progress

Comment #17036 by Luthien on January 10, 2007 at 9:51 am

24. Comment #17025 by flashbaby on January 10, 2007 at 6:49 am

"There is no absolute right to privacy that's why I have to hide my bomb factory."

We are tracing your IP as we speak...

:P

322. Halting progress

Comment #17015 by Luthien on January 10, 2007 at 4:58 am

21. Comment #17010 by nickthelight on January 10, 2007 at 4:38 am

"I agree with the general theory. However in the example given (a B&B) the owner of the business, as it is his/her home should be aloud to let into his/her home whoever he/she does or dosn't want. If that means not letting in gay/black/woman etc...then that is their right."

No, nickthelight, you have missed the point entirely. If someone decides to run a B&B from their own home, they have chosen to open it up to the public already. If they were not running this service then they have a "right to Privacy" in their own home, but with a publicly advertised B&B this is clearly not an issue of privacy. To refuse access to people purely on the bases of sex, sexual orientation, or skin colour is indefensible for any reason.

323. Richard Dawkins' Report Card

Comment #17007 by Luthien on January 10, 2007 at 4:22 am

I always got slated in school reports for my handwriting, and told I was lazy etc. because of it. Thank Evolution for the humans who came up with computers, keyboards, and spellcheckers!

324. Halting progress

Comment #16993 by Luthien on January 10, 2007 at 2:17 am

The "challenge" to this legislation here in Northern Ireland was only defeated by the vote of a dead man (The party in question had the right to use it on his behalf, until an election can be called). How scary is that?

Well said Grayling!

325. Open Letter to Rev. John Auer

Comment #16816 by Luthien on January 9, 2007 at 1:12 am

Last year there was at least one diocese of the Catholic Church in Northern Ireland that started taking up a 2nd collection (of money, in addition to the collection they normally take up) which people were told was a special collection "for the Priests". It later emerged that this money was going towards out of court settlements for abuse cases!

326. Hybrid embryo work 'under threat'

Comment #16731 by Luthien on January 8, 2007 at 11:00 am

FYI, the "non human" DNA that would be present in this type of embryo would be mitochondrial DNA, which is well conserved between mammalian species.

I find it ironic that people are complaining about mixing DNA from different species, when Mitrochondria themselves were originally a seperate species which developed a symbiosis with the host organism.

327. Woman beaten on Jerusalem bus for refusing to move to rear seat

Comment #15198 by Luthien on December 29, 2006 at 1:04 pm

33. Comment #15196 by Anat on December 29, 2006 at 12:50 pm

"Luthien, your post mistakenly attributes a quote from DavidJMH to myself."

Whoops, sorry about that. I fixed it now :)

328. Woman beaten on Jerusalem bus for refusing to move to rear seat

Comment #15194 by Luthien on December 29, 2006 at 12:37 pm

29. Comment #15173 by DavidJMH on December 29, 2006 at 9:29 am

"It is hardly surprising that Christianity and Islam are as equally bigotted since they are fruit from the poisoned tree."

Reminds me of a Blake poem, actually...

"Pity would be no more
If we did not make somebody poor,
And Mercy no more could be
If all were as happy as we.

And mutual fear brings Peace,
Till the selfish loves increase;
Then Cruelty knits a snare,
And spreads his baits with care.

He sits down with holy fears,
And waters the ground with tears;
Then Humility takes its root
Underneath his foot.

Soon spreads the dismal shade
Of Mystery over his head,
And the caterpillar and fly
Feed on the Mystery.

And it bears the fruit of Deceit,
Ruddy and sweet to eat,
And the raven his nest has made
In its thickest shade.

The gods of the earth and sea
Sought through nature to find this tree,
But their search was all in vain:
There grows one in the human Brain."

I was always taught that Blake was very religious, but it seems to me he is describing your "poison tree" of religion very accurately here ;)

("But their search was all in vain:There grows one in the human Brain" = delusion :P)

329. God's Enemies Are More Honest Than His Friends

Comment #15156 by Luthien on December 29, 2006 at 7:46 am

22. Comment #15152 by JohnC on December 29, 2006 at 6:56 am

"Luthien, agreed that our sense of humour is a precious commodity, and when it starts to slip away we know all is not well. But "cowardice" is pretty strong and serious language, and a serious reply is not inappropriate."

I would say that it is definitely NOT "cowardice" to hide the fact that you are an atheist, for fear of the people around you, but that was not in question. What was in question was the following from Chris: "trying to be one but still reject the simple, common, descriptive word smacks of weakness, cowardice and even hypocrisy".

Strong words indeed (though I am quite sure they were not intended to offend anyone personally), but when a person is open enough to talk about their own non belief in god(s), why would they then say they were not an atheist? From your comments I would say that you are one of the people that have bought into (or at least been influenced by) the "belief" that Atheism is some sort of doctrine? Let me clarify for you, it is decidedly not! What I am is a person who does not believe in any God. When people ask me what I believe I do not repeat this cumbersome sentence to them, because there is a single handy word to describe it.

"By the way, the last person I know of to be charged with blasphemy in this state was a woman activist dressed as nun wearing a placard saying: "I was fucked by the Almighty Steel Prick of the Lord", which was a literal translation from the writings of a famous saint (Teresa, from memory)."

See, that was damn funny! ;)

Perhaps we should go around telling people we are atheists who files off our horns every morning, or better still, sew a big red "A" into all our clothing :P

(…sorry, I'll shut up now.)

330. God's Enemies Are More Honest Than His Friends

Comment #15150 by Luthien on December 29, 2006 at 6:29 am

RE: 17. Comment #15147 by Chris Davis

Spot on Chris!

Perhaps we should have "Athiest Pride" parades with floats celebrating scientific discoveries (I'm picturing giant 'double helix' balloons right now) and fancy dress ranging from "Greek philosoper" costumes to people dressed as Darwin ;)

If we are going to be Athiests let's ENJOY it!

Oh, and lighten up JohnC... go on, have a free 'double Helix' balloon and an 'I [heart] Athiests' sticker :P

331. God's Enemies Are More Honest Than His Friends

Comment #15129 by Luthien on December 29, 2006 at 4:10 am

A little while ago I was accused by a friend of calling myself an Athiest because it was 'trendy' to do so. I thought to myself "Wow, we must be getting somewhere at last!" ;)

332. Woman beaten on Jerusalem bus for refusing to move to rear seat

Comment #15126 by Luthien on December 29, 2006 at 3:57 am

It's this idea that women are somehow 'unclean' or 'sinful' that makes my blood boil! The Catholic church still uses this one too, and here in Northern ireland we have seperate schools for males and females IN ADDITION to the seperate schools for the Catholic religion! My (all girls) school even went to great lengths to make sure our school trips were scheduled not meet any school trip from the all boys school!

I guess if you keep the men seperate from the women, they never learn that women are NOT property to be owned, but individuals to be respected. These people are sick!

333. The Blasphemy Challenge

Comment #14940 by Luthien on December 27, 2006 at 2:31 am

RE: 202. Comment #14935 by Rick777 on December 26, 2006 at 11:38 pm

Have you actually watched any of these videos? These young people are giving their "well reasoned line of thought" in their videos (except for Dean the ballooniac and his balloon Jesus who fought back :P).

As for this being viewed as "the work of satan", let me remind you that this site will also be viewed as "the work of satan", so satan is either a web designer (and HTML is the devil's markup) or non existent.

334. The Trouble with Atheism

Comment #14327 by Luthien on December 22, 2006 at 3:27 am

I have put up a thread here in the civic action section of the forum:

http://www.richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4515

335. The Trouble with Atheism

Comment #14311 by Luthien on December 22, 2006 at 2:15 am

Niels, Logicel, Yorker, Jared, Sancus and any other interested person.

I have access to flash and macromedia director, as well as some experience using them from my days as a student. We could pick a topic and I could generate content based around this. Something simple like "what makes astronauts experience weightlessness?", or "Why is the sky blue?", or "Why do we have summer and winter?" I will look into doing this over the holidays.

(I also think we should have a friendly slogan on the main page, like "Don't Panic" :P)

1. A brainstorm of suggestions about content and format from all interested parties.

2. Then a poll to decide upon the best brainstorm points.

3. Decide upon content and who will provide it.

4. Designate people or teams to carry out specifics and make a start.

For point 3 here, I would suggest that we open it up for anyone to upload a content animation containing their explanation (kind of like youtube), and we have a body of people who verify that it is correct before it is linked into the main content (like wikipedia).

If you move this thread, please post the link here for me so I can find it :)

336. 7 monks injured in clash over monastery

Comment #14114 by Luthien on December 21, 2006 at 7:13 am

13. Comment #14110 by Roy_H on December 21, 2006 at 6:53 am

"Not only are women banned from Mount Athos. So are female sheep presumably for fear they would offer too much temptation to frustrated monks"
Puts a whole new slant on the phrase "Lamb of God!"

Hehe, nice one :)

337. The Trouble with Atheism

Comment #14102 by Luthien on December 21, 2006 at 6:14 am

Niels, Yorker, Logicel, and Sancus

The important thing for me as a child was the presentation, not of bald facts, but something that allowed me to directly interact with something to teach MYSELF the concept. That way, a child can spend as long as they need on a concept without feeling that they are 'slow', and can also skip over things that they already understand so they don't get frustrated or bored. Back when I was 7 years old, I had an excellent pop-up book called "The Universe", which taught concepts like 'red shift' and 'how to measure the distance of a star' via very simple push/pull tabs and a little paper engineering. It would be a relatively simple matter to put together a series of interactive 'experiments' to teach a whole range of scientific concepts, using flash or macromedia director, and then tie them together in a website (this could be done like 'Wiki' contributions, and a given concept could have many different animations associated with it, that explain in various levels of detail / complexity). The question is: how do we organise this collection into a 'journey' that can be tailored to each individual that visit's the site?

338. The Trouble with Atheism

Comment #13992 by Luthien on December 20, 2006 at 2:21 pm

104. Comment #13973 by Yorker

I tried to get funding for a PhD to develop the AI part of such an educational tool, but was refused a grant. If I can ever afford it I will try to do it on my own. :)

339. The Trouble with Atheism

Comment #13960 by Luthien on December 20, 2006 at 9:23 am

...Of course, no government would use the above in their education system, as it would create a generation of independant thinkers immune to the techniques used to control them.

340. The Trouble with Atheism

Comment #13955 by Luthien on December 20, 2006 at 9:06 am

Yorker, I am impressed by your insightful comments. Perhaps we should start with getting young people to read and discuss Machiavelli's "The Prince"?

Regarding education, I think that the best way to 'educate' children is to set them on a personal voyage of discovery. It would be possible to write a software package that was 'open source', and allowed children to browse through multimedia content on any subject, taking feedback from their reaction times, and general interest (an "I'm bored" button), and reducing the complexity of the language if it is too advanced, or increasing it if it is too simple. The content could then be provided in an 'open source' format compatable with the software, in a project much like wikipedia.

341. The Trouble with Atheism

Comment #13934 by Luthien on December 20, 2006 at 6:34 am

Interesting article on constructing arguments from the BBC website:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6193691.stm

"Those familiar with internet culture may have heard of Godwin's law. Coined by the American lawyer Mike Godwin in 1990, it states that the greater the length of an internet discussion, the higher the chances of a comparison involving Hitler or the Nazis."

Discussion of Darwin, ends up with the predictible 'Hitler' in record time, another triumph for 'Godwin's Law'. ;)

342. The Trouble with Atheism

Comment #13697 by Luthien on December 19, 2006 at 6:03 am

If I were being kind I would say that he has not understood the nature of scientific progress, but I suspect it is more the case that he set out to deliberately misrepresent it.

One of his 'arguments' was that Darwin predicted "gradual change", but here is a scientist that says evolution can happen in 'sudden leaps' due to the nature of DNA, therefore...

therefore...

erm...

Oh yes, science has moved on in it's understanding since "The Origin of the Species" was written, what with the discovery of DNA and all that. So this means that atheists are...

are...

erm...

343. The Grinch Delusion: An Atheist Can Believe in Christmas

Comment #13539 by Luthien on December 18, 2006 at 6:38 am

Christmas: A great excuse to buy everyone you know a copy of "The God Delusion".

344. Atheist Chic

Comment #13523 by Luthien on December 18, 2006 at 5:00 am

Oh boy, haven't you got the wrong end of the stick!

Tolerance of children being indoctrinated into a religion is directly equivalent to tolerance for slavery. "It's a parent's right to bring up their children that way" (what about a child's right to intellectual independence?). Many people are 'slaves' to their own superstitions, unable to live a full life because they must not do this or that. Many people have been sexually, physically, and / or mentally abused by a religious 'authority' and did not know that they had the right to complain (the abuser played directly on the beliefs that had been instilled in them to ensure their compliance). Many more people have had money extorted from them, or have refused lifesaving treatment for themselves or (worse) for a child in their care on the basis of 'religion' (a relative of mine died because his 'prayer group' decided they could heal him through the 'power of Christ', and made him stop taking medical treatment). The worst case scenarios are the young men (and women) who have been convinced to martyr themselves by flying planes into buildings, or strapping bombs to themselves, killing many innocent people in the process.

We need to speak up on behalf of all these vulnerable children, so they can be allowed to develop intellectually (without being brainwashed by irrational beliefs) and protect themselves from those who would abuse their power.

345. Ministers to ban creationist teaching aids in science lessons

Comment #13063 by Luthien on December 15, 2006 at 8:30 am

I certainly hope that "Truth in Science" have not been awarded 'charitable' status, or given any kind of tax exemption.

We need to go check this out ASAP!

346. Blaming 'The God Delusion'

Comment #13060 by Luthien on December 15, 2006 at 8:12 am

Regarding Comment #12977 by JONATHAN DORE on December 14, 2006 at 6:29 pm

Yorker (#12974):
>>Eagleton does rightfully take Dawkins to task for his political and historical naivety -- he's particularly baffled when Dawkins's suggests that the words "nationalist" and "loyalist" are, in their Northern Irish context, merely euphemisms for "Catholic" and "Protestant," respectively.<<

"I see it Dawkins' way, because that's basically how they're divided."

"Yes Yorker, precisely: whenever I hear someone say the difference isn't religious (because their disagreements are chiefly political rather than theological) I want to ask them why the Northern Irish therefore need to continue being educated in religiously segregated schools? If it was a mere political disagreement, what would be the justification for them maintaining two completely separate and parallel public education systems? Is there any other conflict in the world in which a purely political disagreement has led to the creation of two separate, parallel education systems? Yet in Northern Ireland we are told that is precisely what is happening, even though the segregation, strangely, takes place precisely along the lines of (an of course arbitrary and totally irrelevant) religious identity! Yeah. Right."

I am from Northern Ireland, and I can confirm that Dawkins is correct to say that "the words 'nationalist' and 'loyalist' are, in their Northern Irish context, merely euphemisms for 'Catholic' and 'Protestant,' respectively".

Your point about the schooling system is bang on the mark too.

The divisions in Northern Ireland can be directly traced back to the religious war fought by the Catholic Church (via the Spanish, and other catholic nations) against the nations that had thrown off their control in favour of Protestantism. Unfortunately Ireland was a convenient 'back door' to England, complete with a ready made army of uneducated people who would do whatever their 'priest' told them to do. The divide is still there to this day, although I suspect that the liberal (for his time) William of Orange would be horrified by some of his modern 'supporters'.