351. How condescension benefits terrorism

Comment #90423 by Vinelectric on November 25, 2007 at 4:53 am

I'm not sure how he can be certain that Hirsi Ali has no influence. How does he know what seeds she is planting in the minds of Muslim women?

I don't know if Hirsi Ali may not have been aware of feminist movements within Islam itself. The veil, genital mutilation, participation in politics...etc have been targeted by reformers since the 1960s. In Iran, Shiite feminists call for those obsessed by preserving virginity to remember that only one of Muhammad's wives was virgin at marriage (the famous nine year old Aisha) and that many women in early Islam were scholars, fighters and ran their own business. That can be done whilst still conforming to Islamic principles and thus Hirsi Ali's work is alien to the Middle Eastern mindset. Her claim that Islamic reform is impossible can only appeal to those who know the middle east through second hand informants.

I think that explains why the British government seeks to listen to semi-fundamentalists such as Tariq Ramadan. They know that the muslim community is unlikely to embrace secularism through the shock tactics of "Enlightment Fundamentalists" and their ill thought efforts to reform the community by undermining it completely. For the time being what is desperately needed is to reverse the recent sprout of fundamentalist ideology and for that you need to cooperate with those who understand that mindset better. Commons sense, really.

352. Taking Science on Faith

Comment #90415 by Vinelectric on November 25, 2007 at 4:19 am

All science proceeds on the assumption that nature is ordered in a rational and intelligible way

This is not factual and I hope Quantum physicists will write back to criticize this article. The building blocks of matter appear to interact with their environment in a way that is neither linear nor certain. There is no presumption that they will and that contrasts with theological belief systems.

Einstein rules when Newton fails and thus we accept that the models of material behaviour that we call the "Physical Laws" are but more like 'useful approximations' than set laws.

353. URGENT APPEAL: Please Help Protect Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Comment #90294 by Vinelectric on November 24, 2007 at 4:17 am

You have criticised me personally by asserting that I "know nothing" about the efforts made by people other than Ayaan Hirsi Ali to change Islamic societies.

So now you claim that you do know something about secular writers in the Islamic world and yet you still you support her cause with such fervor. I'm baffled.

You've extrapolated my harsh criticsm on Van Gogh's statements into defending Boyeuri. It is not my problem that you were not careful on reading my posts. I've reiterated what I think of murder but you don't seem to care. You've decided to slander me irrespective of what I said.

I repeat: murder is wrong, bigotry is wrong. I wouldn't change my mind on Hitler or Jerry Fallwell if they'd been murdered by someone else. Do you really believe that Van Gogh wanted to reach out to the muslim community? By inciting hatred against the whole community through misrepresenting them on his film and calling them goatfuckers?

You've misrepresented me once again on saying that I think Van Gogh wrote dehumanising statements just because he attacked the muslim community. Did you not read what I said about his vulgar attacks on the Jewish people?

OK I will not persuade you to apologise for your slander (in the NHS you could lose your job for crap like that) and you will not be able to persuade me to respect your views on Hirsi Ali. I'll leave it at that. Better donate to the red cross or do something mroe useful to humanity. Who cares if you're right or wrong or if Hirsi Ali deserves the obscene amount of money she needs to live in the US and work for the neo cons.

354. Romney's Mormonism is fair game

Comment #90291 by Vinelectric on November 24, 2007 at 3:21 am

Trouble is, the creed is often inseparable from the person.

Is that true?

Ideally that would be true but not in the real world, apparently.
Millions of people pretend to follow christianity or Islam but a few seem to live by the rules of their medieval texts.

And by the way Goldy I don't know how it is possible to criticize the statement "most mormons are good people" by saying that a certain mormon bloke committed underage sex.

355. You can't be moral without God!

Comment #90191 by Vinelectric on November 23, 2007 at 11:21 am

I don't have evidence that books have pages either.

And even if you did then you wouldn't have evidence that such evidence is evidential of that proposition.

356. You can't be moral without God!

Comment #89993 by Vinelectric on November 22, 2007 at 10:45 am

God must have said: "let there be disease" and "it was".

There are many acts of God that do not conform to our understanding of morality. It is as if humans have evolved a sense of morality that transcend's Gods' own.

No two would disagree that torture is immoral but God seems to promote it sometimes and abhor it other times. His sense of morality is neither consistent nor non-arbitrary. It is simply unreliable.

On the other hand modern humanist values seem to possess a sense of integrity and uniformity that the theistic God desperately lacks. Even if we accept the more peaceful messages of Jesus one would be struck at the sudden change of direction that God must have taken at the point when he decided to reveal his earthly presence. This God has no moral stability and his character can not be relied upon as a guidance for anything meaningful in life.

His moral sense seems to be evolving.

You can't say that goodness is integral to his character because that meant different things at different times.

357. URGENT APPEAL: Please Help Protect Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Comment #88985 by Vinelectric on November 19, 2007 at 12:23 pm

Goatboy

Madness! In a world where famine and disease claim thousands we sit here debating whether some person is right to opt for the more expensive of two options to keep their personal security.

The problem with Ayaanis that, to the muslim world, her target community, she is completely useless. Secular thinkers such as Miss Sultan and Mr Arkon are doing a pretty good job at selling the secular cause to the masses. They are as forceful and upfront as you'd hope but they don't resort to the services of a foul mouthed scum to hurt the feelings of a community that's struggling to find it's direction after the wounds it inflicted on itself by allowing fundamentalism to flourish within completely unchecked.

But what do you know of the efforts of those who forsake the expensive spotlight to make a genuine difference in the middle east? Nothing. Absoloutely nothing. You simply don't know what you're talking about.

The only hope for the middle east to progress is to get it to secularise. I feel proud when friends find Arkon's books stimulating their thoughts on the validity of religion but feel terribly let down by Hiris Ali's shock tactics on her silly little film: "Submission". She sure knows that her misfortunate story would shock most women in the middle east (save Saudi Arabia) but yet she's selling it as a normal practice within the community.

If it weren't for the book sales why else is she doing that? Freedom of speech? Learn from those authors who know how to really make a difference. She is not doing the community any service. She's only feeding the shortsighted ultra-Islamophobes like yourself and that psychologically challenged Fanusi.

And about that holy martyr Van Gogh.

Forget about the muslim community, they're subhuman and might as well be goatfuckers for all that Van Gogh could see. What sick and petrid psychology would prompt anyone to talk about the caramel taste of burning diabetic Jews?

By the way I never said I supported Boyeuri. You've simply made that up so please retract that comment immediately and apologise for the slander. You see I'm not Jewish and no longer Muslim yet I still feel outraged everytime I read some of those sordid articles of his. How can you not?

I am a secular humanist. To me, murder is wrong, bigotry is wrong and the abuse of free speech in that way is a fraud. Tragic deaths do not absolve people from the crimes they have committed against humanity whether it be physical crimes or dehumanising speech.

358. URGENT APPEAL: Please Help Protect Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Comment #88720 by Vinelectric on November 18, 2007 at 4:56 pm

Goatboy wrote

Think about living such a limited life, for just a moment. Would you do it? More to the point: should you *have* to do it?

If her security difficulties weren't so well publicized maybe she'd be a bit safer anyway.


To answer your question, I personally wouldn't. But neither did she have to collaborate with the man who kept on referring to a whole community of muslims as "goatfuckers" and said that Jews climax on the mention of Auschwitz. Sometimes people wind up as heroes of free speech by following the footsteps of the scum of the earth. How ironic.

Why not follow the examples of Wafa Sultan and Muhammad Arkon (especially the latter) whose efforts on secularising the muslim world have found an audience among those who see no need for Hirsi Ali's disgusting "submission" film project. You'll find Arkon's works on public libraries while none of Hirsi Ali's books are ever likely to reach out to the community that concerns her most.

If she stays in the Netherlands and take a few years leave from the spotlight she has the option to resurface with a less poignant and more effective approach as opposed to the direct provocation that neither she nor her country's government is able to cope with (financially). And dare I say of no consequence outside Alice Harris's and Alice Hitchens' wonderland.

Too late to turn back now but if she's come all the way from Somalia, sure she'd find the patience to stay low for a little while.

359. Saudi gang-rape victim is jailed

Comment #88401 by Vinelectric on November 16, 2007 at 1:35 pm

Bloody hell!

We're not going tabloid now. Or are we, Josh?

360. Mind your manners

Comment #88227 by Vinelectric on November 15, 2007 at 1:17 pm

Henri is oblivious to the actual content of the different competing ideologies he referred to but that is misleading.

The current political climate/ideology owes itself to those who argue best in its favour. In a democracy such ideologies come to power not through the incessant threat of eternal damnation and emotional blackmailing as religion has done but through dialogue and the rallying of public opinion towards a desired direction.

The other difference is that, in contrast to fascism or pre-enlightment christianity, democratic/secular systems do not automatically seek to brutally exclude competing ideologies except through public and rational discourse. Sadly this seems to apply to relatively stable (and affluent-Western) societies only.

Still the current air of secular humanism is incomparable to the days when marxism, socialism or christianity prevailed. You'd have to try hard to ignore the difference.

361. Why Science Will Triumph Only When Theory Becomes Law

Comment #88057 by Vinelectric on November 14, 2007 at 12:29 pm

Alternatively, educate the public about the difference between 'theory' and 'hypothesis'.

Evolutionary change lacks the overall uniformity and predictability that the effect of gravity has on accelerating masses. The word 'Law' thus sounds inappropriate.

362. Dr Bari: Government stoking Muslim tension

Comment #87317 by Vinelectric on November 11, 2007 at 7:46 pm

Muslims have got to learn a few things....

Their religion doesn't make them special,
they're not liked because of the very words this so called leader of Muslims has just spoke.
That they are the problem, not us.

I should add: "and that's for their own sake before anyone else's".

363. Allan Gregg interviews Richard Dawkins

Comment #87313 by Vinelectric on November 11, 2007 at 7:30 pm

A carzy old man wrote

As Hitchens has put it so succinctly: "The world looks as it would look if there were no God."

Hitchens was echoing Stegner.

364. The Transcendental Argument for God

Comment #87284 by Vinelectric on November 11, 2007 at 4:48 pm

The distinction between those two types of reality comes across as superfluous to me.

Or it could just be that the example of Light vs waves is confusing. The bottom line is that that form of energy is demonstrably real as long as one accepts that different observers will perceive it differently.

365. Allan Gregg interviews Richard Dawkins

Comment #87229 by Vinelectric on November 11, 2007 at 2:35 pm

Appliedmootist

The Judaeo-Christian-Muslim god apparently has a comprehensive list of attribtues that one may ascribe to a deity including the creation of existence itself.

It makes no sense to limit Stegner's work to the Abrahamic god as a special case because that figure is all inclusive. If you think you can disprove that deity then there's little else to do but uphold the Atheistic position.

In fact the most interesting chapters of Stegner's are those dealing with the question of how something can arise out of nothing. What else is there to worry about if you can figure that out?

366. The truth in religion

Comment #84899 by Vinelectric on November 4, 2007 at 5:35 am

Muhammed (circa: 570 to 632 CE) is known to have drawn on Christian theology and Judeo theology in making up his own theological teachings

Muslims view their religion as a continuation of an evolving but consistent theme of revelation, several installmnets of a single message handed down to all cultures throughout history. They claim that the theolgoy was corrupted by successive generations and that is why a new wise man was sent to renew the message every so often.

Thus the "plagiarism" charge will not work. Any concordance with eariler religious systems is further evidence that these teachings originate from a single source. See what I mean? If you point out that theologies vary wildly between cultures they'll say: but of course, that's why several attempts were made to correct that through Jesus, Moses...etc.

And by the way another argument that won't work is the "How can a merciful God does this and does that". They don't believe in a nice god. They believe in a god that "can" and "will" if you don't follow and doesn't mind feeding his evil masterpiece (hell) with some unsuspecting humans. In fact the Quran suggests that that has to happen anyway as this is the main source of fuel for Hell.

Twisted and wicked, don't you think?

A pure charlatan and an megalomaniac to boot with his overweening impression of his place in the (any) scheme of things.

Excessive grandiosity definitely indicates some form of mental dysfunction. As a combatant and leader he definitely had skills, otherwise who would have thought that a backwardly desert tribe would swerve past Africa and into Europe and the far East?
That all happened against a background of torture and persecution of (his followers) by the surrounding tribes. That kind of determination would outsize your description of a "pure charlatan".

367. Huge Black Holes May Hold Keys to Galaxy Formation

Comment #84581 by Vinelectric on November 2, 2007 at 3:21 pm

OK you seem much more informed on the subject than I am so I withdraw my last comment!!

368. Huge Black Holes May Hold Keys to Galaxy Formation

Comment #84579 by Vinelectric on November 2, 2007 at 3:16 pm

I get you this time. I just find the concept of "nothingness" unfathomable and thus I can't persuade myself to appeal to its non-existent properties to help me understand anything about the observable universe. If I do then I'm automatically assuming that "nothing" is a "thing" which bears some form of meaning, which of course it doesn't by definition.

Why not write to Vic Stegner? His "Comprehensible Cosmos" and its discussion of the independence of material properties (including time) to the materials themselves is relevant to your reasoning.

369. Huge Black Holes May Hold Keys to Galaxy Formation

Comment #84565 by Vinelectric on November 2, 2007 at 1:31 pm

By the way, if "nothingness" has no scale then you can't even begin to say universes and atoms are the same even if we try to imagine a point of view independent of reality itself as you were trying to demonstrate. If you let go of the scales of comparison, you lose the right to compare anything whatsoever and at any level.

Thus the statement: "nothingness is indifferent to scale" is valid but you can't use this to drive any conclusions to the only observable universe we have where size, for example, does matter.

With "nothing" being such a useless and absurd concept you may want to take your last paragraph to the drawing board and try to refine the argument as to why existence would be timeless.

370. Huge Black Holes May Hold Keys to Galaxy Formation

Comment #84563 by Vinelectric on November 2, 2007 at 1:20 pm

Aquilacane, if time were an illusion then what are we referring to when we talk about increasing entropy? Furthermore, untill the space-time fabric model of Einstein is superceeded by a reliable model then we should accept time as an aspect of reality.


However the concept of time being an illusion is definitely not new and dare I say not all that counter intuitive, certainly not to those without scientific training. I remember my father pointing out a (believe it or not) religious text where a man asks a certain Imam to explain how come people will be rewarded or punished for eternity with no bounding limit.

The Imam (the founder of the Shia sect) responded by saying that if the sun didn't rise and fall every day we would have no concept of time. I seemed to accept the logic instantly and for many years later.

The story is retold slightly differently when some anonymous figure asks the same Imam how God can know the past and the future and the reply being that all existence is one instant and time was a 'creation' of God.

So you see my dear Aquilacane, challenging the concept of time seems to be more philosophy and idle conjecture than true science!

371. What the New Atheists Don't See

Comment #84502 by Vinelectric on November 2, 2007 at 7:32 am

(Michel Onfray) says on its second page that religion prevents mankind from facing up to "reality in all its naked cruelty." But how can reality have any moral quality without having an immanent or transcendent purpose?

I've always thought that the reason why such language is used is to argue against the morality of whatever transcendent being there is. That being can not be the source of morality for, even if we assumed its presence (e.g Nature), then the fact that we find ourselves constantly struggling against the odds of death and destruction is a point to be taken against theism.

372. Lessons in hate found at leading mosques

Comment #83808 by Vinelectric on October 31, 2007 at 10:57 am

It's actually a minor law of sociology. Ever collection of incompetent tosspots has always had it in for the jews. Dunno why. It's just the way things seem to turn out.l

The Lebanese were probably referring to their neighbours the Israelis and they have every right to despise them.

C'mon, do you expect to rape the geography of an already turbulent region with a racist Jewish state AND claim the two million or so refugees who were torn off their homelands never existed and expect to be loved and respected?

No. These are the guys that killed 90% of the Jewish population of that region during the Second World War, allied with Hitler via the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, and formed the Handscharr SS division.

What is wrong with your head? Did they all individually pledge allegiance to the grand mufti? Did they all individually participate in killing the Jews in that area?

373. Why do we ignore the plight of ex-Muslims?

Comment #83608 by Vinelectric on October 30, 2007 at 3:57 pm

Annabanana

Brian's doing a good job by engaging the morbidly agitated Fanusi. It's good to see the latter refrain from articulating his genocidal fantasies.

Anyhow the same report that Fanusi often misquotes (overall 28% of British muslims prefer to live under sharia law) also says the following:

59% feel they have as much, if not more, in common with non-Muslims in the UK as with Muslims abroad.

21% have consumed alcohol. 65% have paid interest on a normal mortgage. 19 % have gambled. 9 % have admitted to taking drugs.

Do you expect that mouthful but practically watered down version of Islam to pose a serious threat to Europe? Maybe Sam Harris has a point, the danger is that the moderate majority would continue to foster extremists. But have you seen the Muslim Council of Britain's recent newspaper statements condeming terrorism or have you witnessed ex-Hizbut Tahrir activistis sharing information on public television in the UK?

Lend no ears to the twisted right wing propaganda.

http://www.eukn.org/eukn/themes/Urban_Policy/Social_inclusion_and_integration/Integration_of_social_groups/living-apart-together_1115.html

374. Why do we ignore the plight of ex-Muslims?

Comment #83286 by Vinelectric on October 29, 2007 at 2:00 pm

He merely points out how the Qur'an has been traditionally interpreted with the aid of the Hadith and Sira

Of course you should. How else would you understand the context of the passages? That Spencer is an outrage.

375. Why do we ignore the plight of ex-Muslims?

Comment #83277 by Vinelectric on October 29, 2007 at 1:40 pm

What is the 'best' in Islam? What is there of conceivable value that we could gain from this culture?

Book yourself a holiday in the Emirates, Tunisia or Egypt. Enjoy the hospitality.


.

376. Why do we ignore the plight of ex-Muslims?

Comment #83274 by Vinelectric on October 29, 2007 at 1:36 pm

Second of all, if you read Ibn Warraq on this subject, you find that the treatment of women in pre-Islamic Arabia was alot better.

True, babygirls were buried alive.

.

377. AAI 07

Comment #83232 by Vinelectric on October 29, 2007 at 11:19 am

steve

I lost the thread where you talked about Vic Stegner's book. If you haven't read it then please do. It is reasonably well referrenced. I don't know what Martin Reece has to say about the man's ideas but he'd better be as skilled as Stegner at presenting his case!

378. Don't write off religion - it can be the key to a stable family

Comment #82638 by Vinelectric on October 27, 2007 at 4:19 am

On family ties:

The author has a valid point here and I have consistently oberved that the more religious members of my family tend to encourage stronger family ties more often than the non religious.

However I also note that these values and traditions seem to be applicable only within the confines of one's community of faithful believers and not necessarily to the 'others'. Remember that even the Mafia gangsters seem to revere their family ties. This is where it all goes wrong. Despite its success in engendeing a well-knit subcommunity, religion also serves to drive rifts among society in general.

379. Don't write off religion - it can be the key to a stable family

Comment #82633 by Vinelectric on October 27, 2007 at 3:46 am

Anne Karpf on Dawkins:

Where does the fellow live?

Believers living in the West tend to follow milder and more humanistic versions of their belief systems. This contrasts with the practises of faithfull communities in the world at large (especially the developing world/middle east). It's for this reason that Dawkins' views are very much relevant.

380. Arguments From Design, First Cause, Something Rather Than Nothing, Fundamental Constants

Comment #82012 by Vinelectric on October 25, 2007 at 2:27 pm

According to many models of physical reality, the constants DO vary.

Good, so it is incorrect to talk about 'constants' to begin with if they do (?can) vary. Did I read you correctly?

381. Why do we ignore the plight of ex-Muslims?

Comment #81921 by Vinelectric on October 25, 2007 at 11:56 am

All a woman needs to do is carry a gun. Then shoot the next fanatic who assaults her

Take the law into your own hands and you end up where Iraq has. No sane person would discourage people from defending themselves but the reason laws exist is that people tend to have varying definitions of what constitues a retaliable "assault". This is espcially true of those with volatile tempers.

Sorry mate, but better keep your hollywood style justice to yourselves.

382. Arguments From Design, First Cause, Something Rather Than Nothing, Fundamental Constants

Comment #81915 by Vinelectric on October 25, 2007 at 11:41 am

Argument from design

Compares apples with oranges.

383. Arguments From Design, First Cause, Something Rather Than Nothing, Fundamental Constants

Comment #81912 by Vinelectric on October 25, 2007 at 11:35 am

Fine tuning:

Unless it could be demonstrated that the universal constants can be varied in any way then the suggestion that they can is pure metaphysics.

384. Arguments From Design, First Cause, Something Rather Than Nothing, Fundamental Constants

Comment #81908 by Vinelectric on October 25, 2007 at 11:33 am

Something rather than nothing:

The presmuption is that nothingness is the default position. This comes not from observation but from claims made by religious holy books.

Stegner writes well on the topic. What do you mean by "Nothing"? Any description to nothingness makes it "something". However if nothing is meant to describe an absolute vaccum (something not observed in the universe) then Stegner explains how such a vaccum would be too unstable not to break its own symmetry and disintegrate into some form of energy.

385. You can't be moral without God!

Comment #81283 by Vinelectric on October 24, 2007 at 2:30 pm

Secular humanism tanscends biblical/Koranic morality judged against the standard of morality of the books themselves.

Bible condones slavery and inferior rights to women, which contradicts "all men are equal". The Koran prescribes eternal punishment for those who choose non belirf which contradicts "God is the most merciful being/Humans are free to choose what to believe"...etc.

386. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc. were atheists, and they were terrible! Answer that!

Comment #81274 by Vinelectric on October 24, 2007 at 2:21 pm

Atheism is too narrow a context to include Totalitarians-psychopaths and humanists in the same bowl.

Atheists have nothing to answer for.

387. Debate between Michael Shermer and Dinesh D'Souza

Comment #80393 by Vinelectric on October 21, 2007 at 3:56 pm

Good debate. Both men well spoken. Worlds apart from the cheap show put up by Lennox, don't you think?

388. Interview with Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Comment #80388 by Vinelectric on October 21, 2007 at 3:36 pm

why so many people who wanted UN resolutions to support the invasion and now complaining about an occupation that is supported by just such resolutions

It's because we now know that the political temper back then was the result of an overestimation of Saddam's military threat and that the likes of Hitchens have nothing but short-sightedness to justify their arrogance.

Furthermore a state of anarchy was induced by the almost instantaneous dissolution of the local law enforcement establishments. I don't know if that was supported by the UN.

389. Christopher Hitchens at AAI 07

Comment #80200 by Vinelectric on October 20, 2007 at 4:26 pm

Further to Riley's criticism I may add that Hitchens' challenge is unlikely to raise any eyebrows among the followers of Islam.

The Qur'an talks about non-believers who do all sorts of good and virteous deeds. According to the book, God even gives them an appropriate reward on Earth only to 'KICK THE SHIT OUT OF THEM' (to paraphrase a famous sketch) in the hereafter.

So that effectively narrows Hitchen's audience to theists who insist that God is the source of all morality. It seems that the majority of Christians do.

390. Muslims tell Christians: 'Make peace with us or survival of world is at stake'

Comment #78906 by Vinelectric on October 15, 2007 at 10:44 am

Fanusi Khiyal wrote

I will not say that Christianity and Christians today are an evil on a par with that of Islam. That is a monstrous injustice, and I will have no part of it.

Nice and sweet aren't they? Well according to them you'll burn forever in a masterpiece of sheer evil.

... and then they can enjoy visiting a radioactive crater where Mecca used to be.

Group punishment is wrong, for obvious reasons. I would like to imagine that the modern Atheist movement in the West is twinned to secular Humanistic values. Mass genocide is out of the question.

391. Muslims tell Christians: 'Make peace with us or survival of world is at stake'

Comment #78296 by Vinelectric on October 12, 2007 at 11:34 am

Fanusi

all this bull about talking to Islam aside, has only gotten us more and more radicals, more and more oppression, more and more jihadis, more and more subjugation, misery, and evil.

What is the clever alternative that you suggest? Give it a clear thought before your next bout of silly explosive rants.

392. If Muslim doctors are intolerant, let them go

Comment #78005 by Vinelectric on October 11, 2007 at 1:03 pm

Underpants

Thanks for the clarification.

393. If Muslim doctors are intolerant, let them go

Comment #77764 by Vinelectric on October 10, 2007 at 12:31 pm

Underpants:

Experience has shown that being extra-nice to muslims in the hope that they won't blow us up is not a useful approach.

Shocking !!

No sir, you werent' been nice to the muslim terrorists. You were just acting responsibly and in a prinicpled and civilized manner to the majority of the law abiding community.

Can't think of an easy way out of Islamic fundamentalism but the only way through to the terrorists is through the community that fosters them. Common sense, really. What are you trying to achieve by lumping them all together? Irresponsible and foolish comment.

Tell you what, why not just try a Holocuast next. If lumping together is the moral level at which your policy operates.

394. If Muslim doctors are intolerant, let them go

Comment #77696 by Vinelectric on October 10, 2007 at 7:50 am

Jonathan Dore: look up paragraph 7 of the GMC's good medical practise. This was last updated in2006:

http://www.gmc-uk.org/guidance/good_medical_practice/index.asp

Here's an excerpt:

You must treat your patients with respect whatever their life choices and beliefs. You must not unfairly discriminate against them by allowing your personal views* to affect adversely your professional relationship with them or the treatment you provide or arrange. You should challenge colleagues if their behaviour does not comply with this guidance.

Philip 1978: I was refferring to the public opinion against the overwhelming majority of decent law abiding muslims. The national front are growing strong round where I live. I've seen and heard with my own eyes patients threatening to kill and refuse treatment by foreigner/black/muslim doctors. That was before Glasgow and 7/7. It seems that the BNP and the terrorists are coming from the same direction. I don't think we should be complacent on either.

395. If Muslim doctors are intolerant, let them go

Comment #77692 by Vinelectric on October 10, 2007 at 7:29 am

Maybe the Times are following in the Telegraph's line and making things up. Or maybe they learned of the GMC and BMA's positions by sheer intuition.

Keep Googling my friend.

396. If Muslim doctors are intolerant, let them go

Comment #77687 by Vinelectric on October 10, 2007 at 7:07 am

Junklight

So what - we just turn a blind eye....

No, just suck up to the paranoia. Here's an excerpt from the story as it appeared on the Times:

The religious objections by students have been confirmed by the British Medical Association (BMA) and General Medical Council (GMC), which both stressed that they did not approve of such actions.

The regulating bodies are aware of these rarities and have issued the appropriate policy statements. You'd think the Telegraph would mention that or, better still, MOVE ON..!

But of course the cheap frauds can't get their hands of agitating public opinion with their nifty little piece on the angelic muslim doctor from long ago or whatever the writer was on about. Still don't know where I'm coming from? Just read the comments that followed. Nick started compiling an international list of muslim trained doctors-turned-terrorists (yeah, maybe it's not a limited phoenomenon afterall). Someone else started a full blown attack on muslims in general (nickthelight: Muslims are intolerant full stop.)

Aha, there you go, in a country troubled by muslim terrorism what can be better than fuelling up public tension?

397. If Muslim doctors are intolerant, let them go

Comment #77493 by Vinelectric on October 9, 2007 at 12:22 pm

that this is not a large group.....

A friend of mine recently went to a wine warehouse......

Other Muslim students are refusing to examine female bodies and still more, working in high street pharmacies, refuse....

This man sounds like he did some serious research on the sources before he farted out this masterpiece of journalism.

But I'm afraid the actions of this small group of Muslim medics are playing right into the hands of those who want to see Islam as a fundamentally life-hating, reality-hating theocracy.

Journalists alway give themselves away when they 'emphasize' that it is only a 'small group of Muslims' who are causing all the trouble. As employees of the NHS we hear about these oddities like other people do: fromt the loud mouths of the well meaning journalists.

Typical Daily Telegraph scum.

398. Debate between Richard Dawkins and John Lennox

Comment #76836 by Vinelectric on October 7, 2007 at 12:34 pm

Thanks for your reply, but I think you're addressing a point I never made.


I am in total agreement with you and Sam Harris on the apparently peaceful nature of the Amish community. I specifically boxed your second comment (on the greed for power) instead. Then I gave two examples on how the community organizes itself in a manner that serves nothing but its own interests. Of course I forgot to mention the racial segregation.

I would even suggest that denying their children full education and the backwardly ways in which they raise them amounts to child abuse. However that's much more subtle than murderous tendencies but you seem only impressed when the damage gets to that level.

399. Debate between Richard Dawkins and John Lennox

Comment #76758 by Vinelectric on October 7, 2007 at 6:06 am

How many people do you know who were successfully raised in the Amish religion and are now after power?

How many Amish do you know anyway?

It's still an ideology constructed on a morally corrupt book and secludes itself from interacting with manistream society. Now that is worrying in itself. They don't even join the army. Even muslims join the British and American armies. The emergence of psycopathic traits within this community is a matter of time. There just arent' enough of them yet.

I know what you're getting at but I just have little respect for the Amish.

400. Debate between Richard Dawkins and John Lennox

Comment #76757 by Vinelectric on October 7, 2007 at 5:48 am

Teratornis wrote:

We've seen what atheism can do, or rather, what atheism by itself failed to prevent.

Buddhism is strictly non theistic too. However its consequences are drastically different.

Sam Harris makes sense to me now. Atheism is such a useless tag. It says very little about one's worldview. Once you clear your mind of all supernatural persuasions you suddenly realise that, since the concept of a deity makes little sense, the term 'atheism' itself becomes something of an absurdity. Worse still, every time the term is used we automatically pay respect to to theism by characterising our worldview in its light.

So what is it exactly that atheists have in common with Stalin or Pol Pot to allow for any comparison whatsoever? Very little. RD made the point when Lennox asked him whether he 'believed in Atheism'. I hope the theists among the audience understood where RD was coming from.

Isn't it our adherence to secular humanistic values that clearly and consistently defines our moral standards? This should help keep the theists in check whenever they feel the urge to invoke the irrelevant Pol Pot/Stalin stories.