351. Fleabytes

Comment #139899 by Richard Morgan on March 6, 2008 at 4:37 pm

Paula :

You're absolutely right that Dawkins' argument on religion and child abuse has been grossly distorted, but I think his objection goes beyond just the segregation and stereotyping that can occur when children are labelled with the religion of their parents: I understood him to have been arguing that it is an abuse of their right to decide for themselves at an appropriate age; that it is something that is deliberately imposed on them by zealous parents who are unwilling to run the risk of letting them reach their own conclusions on the matter. So I think the accusation is a little stronger than you have expressed it here.

You are right to think that his objection goes beyond just the segregation and stereotyping that can occur when children are labelled with the religion of their parents."
In fact we no longer need to "think" or "understand" his argument, as if their might be a problem of interpretation.
In his debate with Madeileine Bunting he said :

Child abuse : One is labelling children when they're too young to know and the second is things like hell fire, which terrify the daylights out of them.
... Most of these people are not nice people, they are telling children they are going to roast forever in hell!. I CALL THAT CHILD ABUSE.

I hope this puts an end to the "What Richard Dawkins calls "child abuse" debate".

352. Fleabytes

Comment #139656 by Richard Morgan on March 6, 2008 at 10:50 am

Vaal

This thread still going on? Must be a record!

Good threads never die, they simply...
Stop!
Strike that!
I never said that.

353. Fleabytes

Comment #139653 by Richard Morgan on March 6, 2008 at 10:41 am

Steve Z

I think religion can encourage the "it is an aberration" attitude.

Can?
Only "can"?
Or was that a Zaratic understatement?

354. Fleabytes

Comment #139650 by Richard Morgan on March 6, 2008 at 10:30 am

Steve Zara

Sorry to be blunt, but I am fed up with that condescending bullshit.

(Not getting at you in any way, Al)

Ah, cultural differences.
No doubt al-rawandi felt good about the "tolerating homosexuals" thing, just like his need to leap to the defence of slighted (in his opinion) ladies, as if they were the weaker sex who needed his virile gallantry.
I do honestly suspect it is a cultural issue.
But it doesn't stop it being condescending bullshit...

355. Fleabytes

Comment #139645 by Richard Morgan on March 6, 2008 at 10:08 am

Paula

So I guess I'm accepting that religion can provide much-needed emotional support, and that, when it does, this is a good thing. But at the same time, I'm arguing that a) this is no excuse for the truth claims that go with it, b) that religion is not the only way of supplying this emotional support, and c) that religion isn't always as good at this as it likes to think.

"Winning hearts and minds."

"Theists win hearts, atheists win minds." Comment.

Mormon missionaries used to promise "being to sealed to one's loved ones for time AND eternity". In the '70s it was a great selling line. Completely irrational, but great for scoring converts, particularly among the recently bereaved.
I am not saying that our "job" is to offer atheist emotional support, but in my thinking, it remains a nigglingly persistent theme.
(Just as an aside - one of the reasons for my frequent presence on this thread is the joy of that feeling of "being with" people like you, Steve Zara, Brian English and lots of others -if only "virtually" and fleetingly.)
Before anyone else says it - Buddhist-style "spiritual" experiences are of little use in the area of unsatisfied or wounded relationships.
Meditation has been called (not by me) "cerebral masturbation". (Sure, Woody Allen said, "Don't knock masturbation - at least I'm having sex with someone I love," but all the same...)

356. Leaving the Faith

Comment #139634 by Richard Morgan on March 6, 2008 at 9:28 am

MaxD

Seriously I thought they were so obvious as to not need pointing out.

Sorry - I misunderstood. You see, religion leaps into the gaps left by damaged relationships (with family and friends) and I suspect that there are lot more people hurting in that area than not.
There's a lot more to be said about that, but at another time.

Worry about Mr.

I'm afraid I don't understand that. Could you explain please?
And THANK YOU for having had the good idea to come and fetch me on the Fleabytes thread to indicate your post here. Good thinking.

357. The Salamander's Tale

Comment #139549 by Richard Morgan on March 6, 2008 at 4:20 am

PBUM

However, one cannot help emotions getting in the way from time to time.

Tell me about it!

358. Fleabytes

Comment #139536 by Richard Morgan on March 6, 2008 at 3:34 am

Oh fuck!
I have just opened this thread, logged in and started typing as if doing so were a conditioned reflex.
Anybody else have that problem?
Fleabytes thread = interesting stuff = the chance to have a say, plus the "This thread cannot die" instinct.
Paula - I think you're going to have to open a local branch of "Fleabytes Anonymous" as a sort of after-sales service.
Over on another thread, people are scared of death. I have the same problem with the thought that this thread might stop unravelling one day.

359. The Salamander's Tale

Comment #139531 by Richard Morgan on March 6, 2008 at 3:23 am

Mitchell Gliks

I am not projecting the fact that I won't exist any more onto death, that is the fact of the matter. When I die, my existence concludes, that is what scares me

I'm sorry I offended you with what I had hoped to be a few kind words.
Perhaps "all these tired old lines of reasoning" just happen to be right, but you haven't seen that yet.
Your comparing them to screaming carrots tends to make me think that you haven't fully understood the idea of projecting into a vacuum.
Rather like the "fear of the unknown" problem - it's what we know that gives us the Foggy Mountain Quick-Step, not what we ignore.
Try taking Corylus's advice - it will be be much more effective than you could imagine!

360. The Salamander's Tale

Comment #139521 by Richard Morgan on March 6, 2008 at 3:05 am

PBUM

It scares the crap out of me from time to time to think of death.

Which one? The long one before you were born, or the one after this life?
Others may have said this to you before, "since Nature abhors a vacuum", and the notion of "death" is just such a vacuum, that which is scaring the crap out of you (thus worrying the All-Bran producers) is what YOUR mind is putting into this vacuum! Or projecting onto a blank screen. Or whatever.
Death can't scare you any more than God can reassure you. Try to take a look at what YOU are projecting into this word "death", and you'll find that most of the scariness will disappear.
"Being dead is OK.Been there. Done that."
I overcame my vertigo problems and at the same time acquired a "healthy" fear of dying when I did a 90 metre bungee-jump a few years back. Try it. Puts lots of things into a more reasonable perspective.
Or if that seems too scary for the time being, you could start with something just a little less traumatic - an evening with my ex-mother-in-law, for example. Just something to provoke some cathartic sensations.

361. Fleabytes

Comment #139515 by Richard Morgan on March 6, 2008 at 2:54 am

Steve Z

"why does it look like THAT? That is weird!"

How old were you when the question became : "Why do I see it like that?"
I was a precocious child too - I started worrying about questions like that around the age of 47/48!

362. Fleabytes

Comment #139506 by Richard Morgan on March 6, 2008 at 2:31 am

clodhopper

I think some of those personal/psychological needs are still relevant though

Damn you, clodhopper! Once again you have just said what I wanted to say, and you said it better than I would have done!
(Might as well just go down to the pub and gossip with some local celebrities.)

In short, we have 'outgrown' religion. Our infancy is over and we can start having toddler tantrums.

A few years ago I read in some New Age book on the Cabala that humanity was just about entering the stroppy, quarrelsome teenage phase.
Having said that, when you talk about "personal/psychological needs" you have put your finger on an essential detail : we all need love!
We need to feel loved and accepted, and we need to be able to love and accept. This was what drew me into evangelical christianity nearly 40 years ago. I will never forget the impact of the preachers words during an evangelical rally on the Wirral : "Jesus did not come to condemn - he came to SAVE."
Well, at the time, that did it for me. I fell for it hook, line and sinker, and dangled, squirming but hopeful, on the end of the line for over five years!
It seems to me that in many areas, religion has given up on social control, and is trying to calm the toddler tantrums with, "There, there, Mummy loves you."
I am sure that for many, feeling loved and accepted completely eclipses issues such as intelligent design, the young Earth theory and logical fallacies.
And when the human suffering is at its most intense, I can imagine that heliocentrism, flat earth societies or "it's turtles all the way down" seem completely irrelevant.
(Recently when I made a similar remark, some(EDIT)body retorted, "But that doesn't make it true!" Please spare me these cheap, obvious comments.)

When you, clodhopper (a misnomer if ever there was one!) talk about personal/psychological needs, I presume that you are referring to what I would call the whole area of human relationships.
As long as Christianity continues to sell love, forgiveness and acceptance, it will stay in business. And if it has to abandon its grotesque, pseudo-scientific posturing, it will not make a shred of difference to the millions who echo the Beatles' "All you need is love."
(And yes, I do realise I am addressing Western, Judeo-Christian cultural attitudes here, and not virgin-hungry,USA-hating part-time pilots.)
This also explains, perhaps, why there is always a feeling, when Christians talk science, that in the last analysis, there is nothing really at stake for them.

363. Leaving the Faith

Comment #139468 by Richard Morgan on March 5, 2008 at 11:23 pm

MaxD

Family and friends will do very nicely too.

How strange that you mention the most vital factors for "happiness" at the end of your list, like a sort of afterthought.
I find this almost worrying

364. Christopher Hitchens on Real Time with Bill Maher

Comment #139383 by Richard Morgan on March 5, 2008 at 5:13 pm

which is mine and which I thought of.

Will you guys please refrain from ending sentences with propositions!!!!!
This sentence should read: "Which is mine, and which I thought of, ass-hole!!!"

365. Fleabytes

Comment #139382 by Richard Morgan on March 5, 2008 at 5:08 pm

G'night all!

366. Christopher Hitchens on Real Time with Bill Maher

Comment #139378 by Richard Morgan on March 5, 2008 at 5:04 pm

Goldy

That's my theory, it is mine and I thought of it.

In my part of the world, this kind of public confession would be described as an "own goal".

Along the way, of course, there will be changes.

Dilutions?

After a few generations your "animus" will die out totally.

Or will rule the world - according to the principles of homeopathy.

367. Christopher Hitchens on Real Time with Bill Maher

Comment #139363 by Richard Morgan on March 5, 2008 at 4:35 pm

Steve Zara

My tired brain can't deal with it right now.

Use the other one then! Or do you have to get permission from your corpus callosum first?

368. Fleabytes

Comment #139358 by Richard Morgan on March 5, 2008 at 4:27 pm

Steve Zara

The experience seems to be a fundamentally different kind of thing from the mapping.

Pinker's "hard problem" again?

369. Christopher Hitchens on Real Time with Bill Maher

Comment #139350 by Richard Morgan on March 5, 2008 at 4:19 pm

Steve Zara - I was not wrong! Since you are clearly wearing a hat in your avatar photo (unless you have a really serious dandruff problem) I was saying that one wouldn't be meeting you on Ilkla Moor. And that we would be unlikely to find recognisable bits of you (at a molecular level) in a canard a l'orange.

370. Fleabytes

Comment #139347 by Richard Morgan on March 5, 2008 at 4:11 pm

Steve Zara

Both theists and materialists are making claims about external objective reality.

Yes, of course.
Perhaps I'd better stick to composing evolutionary tunes while you guys are philosophising each other into the ground.
( I was trying to say something about the personal usefulness or importance or evidence v. drawing conclusions.)

I am just trying to explain what it feels like to be me.

My wife never listens to me when I try to do that. What's your secret?

371. Fleabytes

Comment #139341 by Richard Morgan on March 5, 2008 at 3:57 pm

Steve Zara to MPhil :

That is only for evidence of phenomena that we want to demonstrate to others.

Aye, there's the rub!
The difference between "providing evidence" (for others) and "drawing careful conclusions" (for one's own personal use).
That is at the origin of the ultimate futility of so many debates between theists and materialists.
Isn't it?

372. Christopher Hitchens on Real Time with Bill Maher

Comment #139317 by Richard Morgan on March 5, 2008 at 3:08 pm

Goldy :

On Ilkla Moor baht 'at

OK - so that explains Steve Zara's avatar...
I understand now.

373. Fleabytes

Comment #139255 by Richard Morgan on March 5, 2008 at 11:56 am

Steve Zara

I would be interested if there was a way of exciting areas of one person's brain based on the results of scanning another...

It exists!!!!
It's called "The Art of Seduction".
(Well, what else did you expect from me, huh?)

374. Fleabytes

Comment #139243 by Richard Morgan on March 5, 2008 at 11:10 am

Paula - I certainly wasn't trying to discourage this thread! Sorry if I sounded a bit gloomy.
In fact I am quite sure this thread can never end now.
As Voltaire said, "If this thread didn't exist, PK would have been obliged to invent it."
Like Bach's "Art of Fugue" it seems to go on for ever, but the same theme keeps recurring and it is never boring.
As threads go, it sure beats the hell out of knitting!

375. Fleabytes

Comment #139153 by Richard Morgan on March 5, 2008 at 8:19 am

Does anyone else have the feeling that this thread is never going to lie down and die a decent death?
It seems to have developed an existence of its own which no longer has a great deal to do with Paula's review.
The odd meme here and there goes through a mysterious chance mutation and we have a new species of thread - one of nature's wondr'ous mysteries.
I am in awe.
When I tell my great-grandchildren about Paula Kirby and her never-ending thread, I guess they'll ask me for evidence, but by that time only the legend will linger on, all digital support systems will have evolved beyond recognition. I will drag out ancient print-outs to show them, but they will ask me, "Do you really believe all that? Were you actually present at the time?"
So I will have to explain "Richard Dawkins" to them.
I will say, "He was a great biologist and an ardent atheist."
They will ask, "What's an atheist?"
And I will sink back into my nuclear-powered wheel-chair, switch on another nicotine-,tar-free nano-powered eco-cigarette, and reply:"Once upon a time..."
They will exchange meaningful glances before tele-transporting me back into Geriatrino Paradise.
Who will be able to explain to future generations that one day there were intelligent, civilised human beings who devoted so much time and energy to explaining the non-existence of something that didn't exist?
There are so many things that don't exist, about which we mere humans know nothing at all.

I sit beside the fire(wall) and think
of all that I have seen,
of wooter, WeeFlea, and others
That never should have have been;


....

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood in every spring
there is a different gene.



(Sorry - it's Melancholy Day here in Morganland. Don't worry - I didn't even take my coat off...)

376. Fleabytes

Comment #138703 by Richard Morgan on March 4, 2008 at 5:45 pm

Brian English

Sometimes the best adaptive strategy is to be irrational.

Examples?
(Hm. Reading that helps me to understand your music a little better.)

377. Fleabytes

Comment #138686 by Richard Morgan on March 4, 2008 at 5:29 pm

Goldy

As Bonzai said, it is a ritual.

Rituals, like traditions, avoid the need to think. And sometimes actually block cognitive functions... intentionally, I'm sure. I'm thinking of Evangelical "full-praise" sessions, techno rave parties, candomble and watching Fox News, for example.

378. Fleabytes

Comment #138662 by Richard Morgan on March 4, 2008 at 5:03 pm

MaxD :

I think I have noticed that there seem to be different faith stances practised along socio-economic lines.

Exactly.
You need God a lot less when you're healthy and wealthy than when you're watching your kids die of starvation.

379. Fleas on the Horizon: In Defense of God

Comment #138446 by Richard Morgan on March 4, 2008 at 10:40 am

Yorker :

I'm convinced that debating religion, for or against, is a complete waste of time; it's time for action, we must fight religion wherever we find it

I understand what you're saying, but I feel that not all debates are a waste of time.
You're right - it's time for action, and I feel that one of those actions sometimes could be open debate.
Debate means that at least people are talking about the issue, and there must be many like myself, who needed to hear the arguments in order to be able to be freed from the delusions.
Action, indeed! I think it would be most useful if you could suggest what kind of actions would be most effective in order to "fight religion wherever we find it" - and win.
(Yes, I know we've been there before, but it's always useful to have new input on strategies for giving the Zeitgeist a boot in the pants to move it along a bit more!)

380. God, power and money

Comment #137943 by Richard Morgan on March 3, 2008 at 3:51 pm

"We have proof that God doesn't like money - just look at the people He gives it to."

381. Fleabytes

Comment #137908 by Richard Morgan on March 3, 2008 at 3:12 pm

That's what I love so much about this thread : the world's intellectual elite squabbling over who gets the Post Number 3000.
The scriptures tell us that "the first shall be last, and the last shall be first, but the in-betweeners will always be in-betweeners."

382. Fleabytes

Comment #137881 by Richard Morgan on March 3, 2008 at 2:42 pm

BOOM!

383. Fleabytes

Comment #137856 by Richard Morgan on March 3, 2008 at 2:32 pm

Bad news, Prankster, Post 3000 will herald the beginning of the Rapture! Lock your doors now!

384. Fleabytes

Comment #137845 by Richard Morgan on March 3, 2008 at 2:27 pm

Brian English

That is the definition of an evolutionary advantage. Isn't it?

Yes, of course.
Sorry about that.
What I meant to say was that a characteristic or behaviour could persist, not because of the advantages it procures, but simply because the disadvantages are not costly.
Like for example, men's nipples, or spending hours keeping up-to-date with this thread.

385. Fleabytes

Comment #137824 by Richard Morgan on March 3, 2008 at 2:13 pm

Brian English : Forgive me if I have misunderstood, but sometimes I have the feeling that we are looking for evolutionary explanations and/or evolutionary advantages when, in fact, as long as individuals survive long enough to reproduce, then the species will persist.
Or are you talking about Richard Dawkins' "misfiring" explanation which, to my mind, is an elegant explanation for several behaviours.
Also have you looked into the suggested connections between awareness of 'other' and oxytocin? (I think that's the word...)

386. Fleabytes

Comment #137818 by Richard Morgan on March 3, 2008 at 2:00 pm

al-rawandi :

Why do you, an aged mandolin player, feel the need to subtly insinuate sexual promiscuity in a 20 something year old girl?

That is downright offensive, al-rawandi.
Annabanana is an intelligent adult who laughs at Freudian slips as much as anybody else.
(You might want to check out my comments, as I have done, to see if your accusations are justified.)
I think we are always demanding our theist friends for "evidence". Where's yours?

387. Fleabytes

Comment #137813 by Richard Morgan on March 3, 2008 at 1:52 pm

Brian English

Speaking of Freudian stuff. What is it with Richard and stroking his mandolin? Food for thought...

Hahahahahaha!
I was expecting that one!
ROTFLMAOU
Incidentally, al-rawandi - I've just checked back over all my posts to see if your reproach is justified.
It isn't.

388. Fleabytes

Comment #137796 by Richard Morgan on March 3, 2008 at 1:40 pm

al-rawandi

You have an unsettling habit of getting vulgar with Anna.

Maybe we can treat Anna as an adult and let her defend herself if she feels the need.
You seem like a nice, intelligent guy most of the time. Maybe you need to try to understand why you are unsettled by my remarks.
Let's not spoil a fun thread with atheist in-fighting, defending the lady's honour and all that primitive stuff.

389. Fleabytes

Comment #137773 by Richard Morgan on March 3, 2008 at 1:14 pm

Reason: Nice puppy. Ticket, please.
Theist: Oh, so you like the puppy! That means that deep down, you know I'm right.
Reason:Sure. Great puppy! Tasted like chicken!"

390. Fleabytes

Comment #137766 by Richard Morgan on March 3, 2008 at 1:04 pm

annabanana

... Freudian slip...

annaBANANA?
faithHEAD?
Best not to get too Freudian on this thread!!!

391. Fleabytes

Comment #137572 by Richard Morgan on March 3, 2008 at 7:49 am

Quetzalcoatl :
Thank you for the tip - you're a gentleman.
At least, on Mondays, you're a gentleman.

392. Fleabytes

Comment #137286 by Richard Morgan on March 2, 2008 at 3:45 pm

Brian English

...music stuff to do...

Well, there's one thing that doesn't take up much of your time!

Or in my case, people who aspire to be smart types.

I disagree. I think you're already a smart type. Except for the red eyes.

393. A God blog

Comment #137277 by Richard Morgan on March 2, 2008 at 3:40 pm

There's blood, gore, incitement to genocide, glorification of rape â€" in fact about everything you might find in an 18-rated video game.

And 18-rated video games are very popular with the under-18s!
Saying things like this is going to encourage thousands of unhealthy teenagers to start reading the Old Testament.
And you can bet your booties that someone, somewhere is working on the video game version of Sod'em and Gomorrah!

394. Leaving the Faith

Comment #136811 by Richard Morgan on March 1, 2008 at 6:33 pm

oblige your children to master mathematics and science to the best of their abilities or 17 demons will torture you with hot tongs for eternity after death.

Does anybody else read this as a "shooting himself in the foot" notion?
Children who master maths and science will soon stop believing in demons!
Won't they?

395. Fleabytes

Comment #136529 by Richard Morgan on March 1, 2008 at 11:09 am

hello

know the relationship between the number of atheists and the number of theists who help out at soup kitchens?

Catholic soup kitchens or Medecins sans Frontiers soup kitchens? I believe that in the former there are quite a few Catholics ( though in France half the people claiming to be Catholic also claim to be atheist) and in the latter, mostly non-affiliated people who don't need a God to tell them to help out.
And actually in the soup itself, most of the theists who post here.

396. Fleabytes

Comment #136515 by Richard Morgan on March 1, 2008 at 10:54 am

irate_atheist

I lost a tenner out of my pocket last night. Is this a reverse miracle?

My dear young friend, you need to brush up your theology. This was a miracle for the Christian who found your tenner!

397. Fleabytes

Comment #136502 by Richard Morgan on March 1, 2008 at 10:46 am

David -

As we left the bus some of the parents handed £30. Later that night someone put a cheque for £50 through the door.

I was particularly surprised to see that you quote a "money miracle" as evidence of something.
I wonder if you have leanings towards the "prosperity gospel" movement?
In my life as a "believer" (though not always in the same thing!) I have personally experienced no less than FOUR such miracles.
Yes, FOUR!
And in each case, the exact amount of cash needed appeared "miraculously" from nowhere!
(I will give the details if asked)
The first time was when I was a Mormon, then later as an Evangelical, then twice when I was dabbling in woo-woo Joseph-Murphy positive-thinking stuff.
But, even though I have not made a complete count yet, I have also personally experienced approximately 4,568 situations where a miracle did not happen.
Of course, happy coincidences are God's miracles, and unhappy ones are God saying, "Not this time, Jimmy".

398. Ayaan Hirsi Ali to get EU protection

Comment #136378 by Richard Morgan on March 1, 2008 at 3:32 am

capeslacker

"Enjoyed" in this context merely means to possess and benefit from, as opposed to take delight or pleasure in.

Anybody willing to take turns with me in reposting this from time to time?
I can understand how this use of the verb "to enjoy" can cause problems for people whose mother tongue is not English.

399. Fleabytes

Comment #136360 by Richard Morgan on March 1, 2008 at 1:33 am

Steve Zara

I was trying to see if I could drag this thread back on topic...

Is it possible to get to 2000 posts by staying on topic?
Herding cats and all that...
I still say that this thread has been a mostly nice place these last few days.
Incidentally - how's your cold?
I worry about your recurring colds.

400. Fleabytes

Comment #135743 by Richard Morgan on February 29, 2008 at 8:45 am

Steve Zara :

Apparently English can speak French!

For the first time, Steve, you have posted a flagrant falsehood.
Notre ami Brian l'Anglais sait parler le Français un peu comme moi, je sais être gentil - c'est à dire rarement, au prix des efforts pénibles et avec très peu de succés.