401. Losing Sight of Progress

Comment #215860 by Nairb on July 22, 2008 at 12:46 pm

hey would tell us what a text book says and then go on to explain how it was all B.S. and ask if we would be at chuch on sunday

Wow , I never imagined it could be like this.

I have 15 year old nieces in Atlanta, Georgia. Could it be as bad?
Any hints on how I can subvert them quietly? Their parents are both relaxed christians but they have started going to church again since they moved to bible belt 10 years ago.

Edit: Btw I visited about 3 years ago. I really like the beaches in Alabama and north Florida.

402. Richard Dawkins on Al Jazeera English

Comment #215792 by Nairb on July 22, 2008 at 11:34 am

Why are Athiests?

Comment #215773 by JernJane
"it's not a question of intelligence. It's a question of honesty and willingness to question one's own dearly held beliefs."


I am not sure it is honesty. Athiests are not necessarily more honest with others and can also delude themselves.

I think its more a lack of trust in others.
Maybe we weren't fed properly as babies.

403. Losing Sight of Progress

Comment #215762 by Nairb on July 22, 2008 at 10:19 am

"The interesting question is: How did the 'light-sensitive cells' come to exist in the first place?"


I dont see the sense in Hitch's response. It doesnt repond to why light sensitve cells came about.
He will look like he is dancing around the question with an incomprehensible answer.


Surely there is a simpler straighforward answer that will more effectively and permanently fill Coulter's God gap.

How about, light sensitive cell came from the same or similar mutation that allowed plants be sensitive to light.

Surely someone who knows more (anything) about biology will have a better response then mine.

Edit : In communication sometimes "less is more"

404. Nine face stoning death in Iran

Comment #215271 by Nairb on July 21, 2008 at 2:56 pm

Fanusi

These are some french links. I havent found english equivalents yet

http://www.ined.fr/fichier/t_publication/1242/publi_pdf1_432.pdf
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Démographie_de_la_France#cite_note-68

INED is the french institute of population studies.

405. Nine face stoning death in Iran

Comment #215227 by Nairb on July 21, 2008 at 2:01 pm

Barry Pearson

My pet theory on religious dogma about sex outside marriage is that it was needed for society to look after children.

Poor countries tend to be puritanical and have strong rules against sex
(Ireland, Italy,spain...
While rich countries tend to drop these rules(France, Sweeden etc)

When the economy goes up, hemlines do too :-)

406. Nine face stoning death in Iran

Comment #215205 by Nairb on July 21, 2008 at 1:32 pm

Al

The GIA tried to turn Algeria into a new Afghanistan. They came close in savagery and really did win an election (when most people abstained due to disilluision with the government)

Algeria was in a state of siege for about 10 years due to the GIA as witnessed by many refughees who sought refuge in France and some terrorist attacks in France.

So no its not a blanket reverence.
Some other algerians I know I dont care for much.

But I like the majority.

407. Nine face stoning death in Iran

Comment #215186 by Nairb on July 21, 2008 at 1:16 pm

Weesam

No its not "16% too much"
What are you suggesting? 2/3 of muslims are citizens.

Al,
I like Algerians. They have balls.
They fought a bloody dirty war with france and won their independance.
Then they fought a bloody war with their own islamists. And won.

An ex- colleague - algerian I know, married a jew despite his parents wishes. He was told to choose his wife or his parents. He chose his wife and hasnt seen his parents since.

Btw he is ostracised by some of her family too.

Edit : He is still muslim, despite my best efforts

408. Nine face stoning death in Iran

Comment #215166 by Nairb on July 21, 2008 at 12:39 pm

Dr Doctor, Al-Rawandi

The current data puts muslims at about 7 or 8% of the the total french population.

The growth of the population is based on
1. Fertility Rate (children per couple)
2. Immigration

The strong growth of the musluim population in Europe including France in the past has been due to the influx of immigrants to fill manual jobs. Besides Spain immigration has greatly reduced over the past years.

Muslim immigrants like many other immigrants have more children it is true. But by the second generation their fertility rates drop to 1 more then the national average and to 0,5 above in the 3rd. In other word stheir is convergence over time.

All this has been studied by different researchers including for the European commiosion

The likely future is that immigration will continue to be relatively low and that recent immigrants children and grand children will have only slightly different fertility rates.

Also be awatre that a large number of muslim men marry out of their faith.

The expected result is that muslims will not grow to much more then 16%

Also be aware that the french have beeen having many babies since 2000. They now have the highest number of births per couple in Europe bar Ireland. The muslim population is contributing about 5% to this growth.

409. Fury at funeral songs ban

Comment #211171 by Nairb on July 15, 2008 at 2:39 pm

This is so stupid in so many ways

I can only laugh.
It makes you wonder how much good luck was involved in man becoming the dominant species on this planet.

410. France rejects Muslim woman over radical practice of Islam

Comment #209582 by Nairb on July 12, 2008 at 5:14 pm

8teist
no problem
The french army is a bit like the national team. Occasional brilliance with some spectacular meltdowns but rarely dull! :)

411. France rejects Muslim woman over radical practice of Islam

Comment #209570 by Nairb on July 12, 2008 at 4:15 pm

Whether this is perfectly fair to the individual is impossible to know.

However I think this is excellent ruling for society.
If we are to maintain and extend a secular state then we need to agressively make this happen. If this infringes on dress code so be it.

This is a message to the muslim and any other religous community that the secular state will not tolerate blatant symbols of inequality ( eg the burqa).

Also it prevents the easy introduction of peasant girls from muslim countries to marriages with religous extremists in France. No bad thing in itself.

412. France rejects Muslim woman over radical practice of Islam

Comment #209565 by Nairb on July 12, 2008 at 3:55 pm

Ergaster

5 million muslims is around 8% of the population. It would take along time indeed for this 8% to become a majority.
Also where I live 30 to 40% are muslims. There is no sharia and no muslim specific party or even agenda.

Though immigrants tend to have more children, 2nd generation immigrants have more or less the same , ie there is an alignement over time in behaviour.

Even in the worst possible projections people of muslim origin are not likely to have a majority before 2100. Such "worst case" projections are highly unlikely.

413. France rejects Muslim woman over radical practice of Islam

Comment #209556 by Nairb on July 12, 2008 at 3:26 pm

8teist

Referring to french as "surrender monkeys" I suppose is intended to mean that the French tend to roll over in face of any regression.

Have you read french history? Have you heard of the french revolution and follow on effect on europe? Have you heard of the commune? Have you noticed the way french society defends its "acquis"?

The facts dont fit your insulting and ignorant term.

414. Prayer refusal pupils 'disciplined'

Comment #204635 by Nairb on July 5, 2008 at 12:14 pm

This is great. :)

Children are being educated on how ridiculous religions are. Hopefully it will inspire their skepticism about what religious instruction they get at home and how stupid some adults can be.

I hope this becomes common practice though its probaly too much to hopê for given the fuss about it.

Steve Zara as usual you are spot on.
Bollocks what a good name!

415. Sharia law 'could have UK role'

Comment #204212 by Nairb on July 4, 2008 at 11:57 am

On the other hand I think its time to put some rules and regulations around Mediation and the people acting as mediators.

If Sharia "law" wants to be used as a basis in mediation then it should be British Sharia law

....meaning no 7th century crap.

416. Sharia law 'could have UK role'

Comment #204208 by Nairb on July 4, 2008 at 11:50 am

Its important to read the last 3 paragraphs.

While this "seems" nutty at first they are only talking about mediation not law.
Anybody can be a mediator so long as both parties agree to the mediator.

The legal system is interested in mediators because it allows the legal system to focus on applying justice.
Today everywhere the legal systems are overrun with silly claims and disputes that should be resolved before coming to court.

That doesnt stop anyone changing their mind and going to court afterwards.


3 last paragraphs
=================
Inayat Bunglawala from the Muslim Council of Britain told BBC News that sharia law applied only to civil matters.

He said: "I think it's important to clarify that English common law already allows us to go to mediation to whichever third party we wish. "So that is why you have sharia council, that is why you have Jewish courts. It is a truly voluntary arrangement.

"There is no parallel legal system. This system cannot override English common law system at all."

417. Storm erupts over 'virginity' divorce

Comment #186563 by Nairb on May 30, 2008 at 3:40 pm

If you dont get on with your partner and want out, what do you do?
Hmm, if you get divorced then the wage earner may have to support the non wage earner.

Ahh, but if there was no marriage ....

418. Storm erupts over 'virginity' divorce

Comment #186551 by Nairb on May 30, 2008 at 3:07 pm

Madphatcat

Yes it is a yawn.

So why is it going ballistic in the french press and tv with everyone commenting on "the incredible threat to the republic" ?

Because someone needs to get some secular bonus points in front of the electorate.

On one side the female muslim minister of justice says "the law is there to protect people in marriage". On the other the entire political establishment AND the female muslim minister of cities says "I am scandalised, I thought it was a report from Kandahar"

Really brilliant :-)
Both of them in the same government :-)

I smell staged political event.

All we need now is the film - Fitna 2 anyone?

419. Storm erupts over 'virginity' divorce

Comment #186520 by Nairb on May 30, 2008 at 1:36 pm

There are quite a number of reasons for annulation in the Article 180 of the civil code _ sterilitité, impotence, or even if he had lied about a previous relationship.

The juge explained that the mariage was annulled because she had lied about virginity and not because she was not a virgin. If the ruling was based on her virginity then the law would probably be revised.

There has apparently been a fairly political reaction. Socialist saying the laicity of the republic is threatened. The right governing UMP party - female muslim Minister of Justice and judge Rachida Dati said the law protects people by giving opportunities for parties to get out of their marriage. She is a tough cookie so it is not because she is being nice to the husband.

I think if the 2 had been atheist, it would not have gotten in the paper but Sarkozy has a reputation of being ready to accomodate very slightly the communautarian approach ( non existant in France - no data can even be collected about religion by the government). He has encouraged the different muslim currents to create a central muslim authority in France even publicly considering govt funding such an organisation ( illegal for religous cults) to avoid wahabii money causing extremism.
So the socialists are shooting at anything that can be interpreted as communautarian in this area as they know it is very unpopular.

Lefebure may either have not understood or spoke too soon or wanted to preempt the socialist potshots.

http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/actualites/societe/20080530.OBS6276/epouse_nonvierge__dati_defend_lannulation_du_mariage.html

420. On Fitna, the Movie

Comment #178898 by Nairb on May 12, 2008 at 7:58 am

ClintonJason,

I looked at your film.

The film gives an impression that this violence is mulim religion based. It isn't. It feels like a propaganda film rather then a factual view of events or an ivestigartion of causes.

In reality there were a number of issues, social, economic, gang pride, hatred of the CRS police.
The rioting began after 2 youths escaped from police by climbing an electric pylon and were electrocuted. The 2 policemen involved were accused and convicted of "non assistance to persons in danger of death".


Also the number of cars burnt (30,000) are for a typical 9 months in France. The actual no. of cars burnt during the rioting over about 1 month was 9,000.

This film does not really represent accurately what happened then.

Also these car burning sprees occur to a lesser extent every year in certain ghettoes as a gangland thing at christmas and new year.

EDIT : There are 30 million cars in France. So burning 30,000 of them in a year is not that significant. Its 1 tenth of 1 percent.

421. 'My daughter deserved to die for falling in love'

Comment #178584 by Nairb on May 11, 2008 at 4:19 pm

SickofGod

I am pretty SickofGod too! :-)
Immigrants usually make a strenuous and sustained effort to adapt.1st generation immigrants in France did that but were poor and uneducated.

Their children (2nd generation) are of course french citizens. Many grow up in areas that are full of unemployment and violence. In some cases they are descriminated against for their poor education, accents and location. But they feel french and are not going to take this! They want respect! Intro your friendly Wahabi Imam spotting a need...

This is a social issue. Anyway these 2nd generation people cant be deported.

However we can do other things to discourage those that take part in unacceptable behaviour.
An Imam was deported for hate speech recently.
2nd generation immigrants must request French citizenship when they are adult (they have an automatic right to it)
As Sarkozy (the president) said "If you don't like France, you can leave"

Nairb (Sick of BadAim and CollateralDamage and TitforTat)

422. 'My daughter deserved to die for falling in love'

Comment #178540 by Nairb on May 11, 2008 at 2:59 pm

Some stats for those who like that.

United Nations reports 5000 Honour Killings (http://www.amnesty.be/doc/article4309.html)
The vast majoority are in Muslim countries. Officialy this is rare ( a couple) in France and Germany.Bangladesh , Pakistan, Jordan appear to be the main culprits.

To put these numbers in perspective for europe.

0.0014 per 100,000 murders or around 750 deaths by murder in Britain. About 800 in France.
Source : http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

107 Deaths of women due to domestic violence in France
Source http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/EUR21/001/2008/en/EUR210012008en.html

"Between 1993 and 2001, there were 109 "honour killings" in Britain, after relatives of the victims decided that the women had brought dishonour on their family. In 2004, Scotland Yard detectives began to re-examine 81 cases in London that they suspected could have been "honour killings"."
From Epeists source

In other words honour killings are 10% of all domestic murder and bit more then 1% of all murder in UK. According to probably currently unreliable stats for Germany and France it is about 0,1% of all murders.

Whatever the numbers this is a sick attitude to women and daughters.

Lets go after the tiny minority who cherry pick violent parts in the Koran rather then the majority of muslims who who cherry pick the good parts.

Perhaps someone here can say to what extent this is local culture and to what extent it is religion based. UN stats seem to indicate both.

423. 'My daughter deserved to die for falling in love'

Comment #178470 by Nairb on May 11, 2008 at 1:21 pm

mordacious1
I think muslims in europe behave and actually are more civilised then many muslims in dysfunctional countries.I am sure it is not just fear of jail.

That said I wouldnt say there are none. I just found stats on Belgium. The federal police have studied the phenomenon and found 18 Honour Killings over the past five years. I haven't found any yet in France but no doubt it exists.

But we need to differentiate between the average person and these extremists and between the muslim religion (contradictory and violent) and muslim people (who in the overwhelming majority cherry pick the good bits).

424. 'My daughter deserved to die for falling in love'

Comment #178451 by Nairb on May 11, 2008 at 12:56 pm

I live in France. In a neighbourhood close by there is an good swimming and other sports amenity It is a poorish neighbourhood with mostly emigrants. These immigrants come from west africa and the maghreb. They are nearly all muslim.
I went there today with my 2 sons. The dressing rooms are unisex. The showers are unisex and of course the pool was unisex.The mostly women there were attractively dressed. The people male and female here were friendly and polite.

The point I want to make here is that the view of muslims expressed in the articles above is an extremist case. I have not heard ever of an honour killing in France (with 5 million muslims).

Muslim practice and behaviour is represented by the article above like Christian behavior is represented by the Waco texas incident.

For sure the muslim religion has a greater attraction to young people of muslim origin then in christanity. They are asserting their difference.
For sure the Quaran has many many things that are unacceptable. For sure the muslim religion is growing quickly ( though only 3 milion practiciing muslims are predicted for 2050). And in some countries Islam becoming radicalised.

As an athiest I want too deal directly with this tendancy. For this we need to analyse it and deal with it effectively through precision actions.

The first important step is to Perceive muslim behaviour in society AS IT IS.

The above article is factual but not representative.

425. Atheists are nice people who will roast in hell, says Cardinal

Comment #177956 by Nairb on May 10, 2008 at 4:03 am

Spinoza

"Hell would be an afterlife full of these assholes. "

Brilliant. I couldn't agree more!

426. Losing Our Spines to Save Our Necks

Comment #176134 by Nairb on May 6, 2008 at 4:46 pm

Al Rawandi

I agree that there is not alot to be said for Islam as a doctrine. At best its contradictory.At worst ...

But as with Christianity people see what they want to see in it. One of the people I mentioned was probably one of the most courageous and straight thinking and acting person I know. He ate pork, drank and attended the mosque. Other muslims I know come in all variations down to slimebag.

I think young people will attach themselves to whatever gets them respect. I think there is some problems now but I think it will be gone in 20 years. I think its more of a 2nd generation immigrant problem.

Their behaviour in council estates/suburbs to women is unspeakable. (A french girl becme a national feminist figure after her siser was raped and burnt alive). But often so is behaviour of non muslims. I see it more as a social issue exacerbated by intolerant (wahabi) preachers preying on social outcasts for a power base.

Agreed UK's comunatarian policies haven't helped. Its not the same accross europe and I think this has contributed to british muslims poor opinion of the west compared to muslims elsewhere where a strong National integration education system exists.

Also British muslims are largely Pakistanis (radicalised since Afghanistan war). In europe with Algerian, Moroccon or Turkish muslims, religion is more low key and easy going. Some french muslims I know were scared by the radicalisation they saw in London.

427. Losing Our Spines to Save Our Necks

Comment #176130 by Nairb on May 6, 2008 at 4:29 pm

Goldy

Agreed on the idea that their names are a give away in the UK. Above all it is sad for our society.
I am more concerned about the work we need to do to build a strong open society here then caring about the stupid rules and ideas some people have in Saudi.

For me there seems to be a vicious cycle of overreaction from fear of the other to aggressivity (all the way back to the Nazis and before). Hitler exploited german fears in hyperinflation economy. Bush exploited american fear after 911. His overeaction in Iraq has inflamed muslim opinion ( even he is right in the long run).

For me Muslims are not the enemy. Fear (of other communities) is the enemy.

If we can control/reduce that fear then their will be less issues for the slimebags to exploit.

428. Losing Our Spines to Save Our Necks

Comment #176095 by Nairb on May 6, 2008 at 2:29 pm

Fanusi,
You should think of other things too.

My freinds willingly included themselves in western society because they had a high regard for it relative to their own. They were opposed to and kept a long distance from the many extremist muslims in UK.

They would have continued to wave off the petty insults of little englanders except the discrimination they felt was not from the guy selling papers but highly educated people in the workplace and this affected them financially.


This is not a good thing for our western society. Forget the muslims for a second. This says something about the functioning of our society.

429. Losing Our Spines to Save Our Necks

Comment #176076 by Nairb on May 6, 2008 at 1:59 pm

Comment #175824 by mossie23
"wilders does more damage than good"
"all he does is shouting that islam is bad."

I would pretty much agree with that.I think its not the message but the way the message is sent also.

Good post.

Obviously that dosn't give anyone the ok to make violent threats though.

430. Losing Our Spines to Save Our Necks

Comment #176073 by Nairb on May 6, 2008 at 1:52 pm

I like Sam Harris and most of the insightful things he is saying:
1. Muslim Community Leaders are more concerned about defending their community then denouncing extermism
2.The "free" press is not really behaving as a free press denouncing threats to freedom and double language
3. if you dont face up to issues and speak your mind you may end up with a fait accomplit wher we have ceded our rights
4. there is obviously a double standard applied to religions

However as with aerial bombing creating "collateral damage" hardening the populations resistance we need to think carefully about the way we send the message to the middle ground.

Is criticism phrased in the following way going to win hearts and minds
"The connection between the doctrine of Islam and Islamist violence is simply not open to dispute."
"The lesson we should draw from the Fitna controversy is that we need more criticism of Islam, not less."

Many muslims feel somewhat excluded from society due to the 9/11 terrorists and even before. Two highly educated peopl I know have given up looking for jobs in UK and gone to Dubai due to the discrimination they felt. Both have high regard or worked in USA and are very open minded and rational. One is Shia - hardly close to the 911 terrorists.
One is married to a christian american.

Both would only feel the above document was anti the muslim community so Sam's good arguments would probably be wasted.

While I believe there is a place for some verbal shock therapy (perhaps in one to one discussion or in books) but we need to find alternative complementary methods of communication then this (particularly in mass market channels).

Otherwise we are going to make this (secularising the muslim community) more difficult and slower then it needs to be.

431. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #154013 by Nairb on April 2, 2008 at 11:41 am

Yesterday the debate was pretty acrimonious. I am glad to see things are abit more calm now. Here is a few observations


1. we are a group of athiests with an appreciation for Dawkins style and content and general attitude toward religion

2. we get into a heated and sometimes personalised debate where some of us are feel horrified or misrepresented by the statements of the other (strawmen, lies etc)

3. Many of us are left deeply disappointed by the experience.

4. Many of us feel our views were pigeonholed


Imagine if we did not have such common views on religion.

I think this should give us some pause on how communications are Perceived by others and how these perceptions and our reactions can change when we feel we are being attacked.

My conclusion is that we need to use high precision and measured communication if we want to get the majority on our side. i.e. we condemn a point while recognising and showing respect for other aspects of the individuals. If our communications are not very carefully measured and balanced we may win our battles and lose the war (figurative) to change minds.




Also for any feeling offended by my posting on leading causes of death , my data came from 1 year for the USA, 2004 I think. It is not intended to belittle 9/11 or deny that trerrorist deaths have a bigger impact on society due to the terror they create. It does give a fact based sense of perspective though on the realised threats in USA as opposed to potential threats.

432. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153435 by Nairb on April 1, 2008 at 1:16 pm

Muslim Terrorism in UsA (Wahhabis) 0
Muslim Terrorism in UsA (Qutbism) 0
Muslim Terrorism in UsA (Harbis) 0
Muslim Terrorism in UsA (Radical Sufis) 0
Muslim Terrorism in UsA (Extra Radical Sufis) 0
Muslim Terrorism in UsA (Shias) 0
Muslim Terrorism in UsA (Shias practicing taqiya) 0
Muslim Terrorism in UsA (esoteric groups to worry about) 0


Wow , I'm really worried now!

433. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153413 by Nairb on April 1, 2008 at 1:01 pm

Number of deaths for leading causes of death in 2004

Heart disease: 652,486
Cancer: 553,888
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 150,074
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 121,987
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 112,012
Diabetes: 73,138
Alzheimer's disease: 65,965
Influenza/Pneumonia: 59,664
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 42,480
Septicemia: 33,373

Muslim Terrorism in UK 0
Muslim Terrorism in USA 0


Apologies if the last two lines cause alarm.

434. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #152751 by Nairb on March 31, 2008 at 1:06 pm

The approach I mentioned is not naive and has been used effectively around the world Basques and Irish terorists and their support organisations being the most recent to come to the centre moderate ground.
I am talking about engaging terrorists firmly not handing out lollipops.But I would not alienate the moderates.
It isnt simple and it doesnt happen over night.
But its the only way of doing it.

Thinking that associating the Koran with violence of this kind in a film will suddenly cause all muslims to suddenly wake up as if out of a trance is laughable. What you get is outrage and a sense of alienation.

As for the idea that european countries like France or England would be majority muslim in 20 years be aware the the muslim population is around 10% now.

I leave the math to those who are interested.

As an athiest european I think I have a greater vested interest in deradicalising muslims and ideally turning the moderates to atheism than commentators further away. And I am not worried.

435. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #152715 by Nairb on March 31, 2008 at 11:56 am

A film which implies that all muslims are somehow following the cited verses in the koran is as ridiculous as if all christians believed we should stone adulterers.

This is why I am not happy with film.

My proposed solution for Radical Muslims is to cut them off from their power base, the vast majority of tolerant and healthy minded muslims.
I would cut them off by focusing very clearly on the extremists and extending a hand of friendship to moderates until they no longer feel the need to support the extremists and identify more with the population of the country or area.
I would never allow muslims in general to feel alienated by my attacks on extremists.
I would not exagerate the danger of muslim terrorists nor contribute to a psychosis (muslims terrorists under the bed syndrome).

This is an effective way to undermine extremist organisations and encourage integration of immigrants. Our society in the west needs to learn how to do this systematically if we hope to remain a model for developing countries and not create useless intercommunal strife.


George Bush took a very direct approach in his War on Terror. At the time of 9/11 most people around the world including the muslim world felt support for America. His ham handed approach has now alienated most of the Muslim world and this alienation is providing support to the people he was fighting in his "war on terror".

436. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #152688 by Nairb on March 31, 2008 at 10:58 am

Al Rawandi

I appreciate your "tolerance of my ignorant apologetics"
My approach is not softly softly. It is targeted more precicely at the problem and therefore more likely to create the right results.

I have reservations on alternative approaches not because they are too loud but because they dont work. George Bush's approach in attacking Iraq to eliminate Al Queda immediately comes to mind.

I have already said that the west is generally more advanced then most muslim countries in its society by about 30 years.

Lets not try to emulate their intolerance.

437. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #152603 by Nairb on March 31, 2008 at 8:51 am

Al-rawandi


By singling out muslims as hypocritical bigots you only achieve alienation of muslims and you miss a more useful objective of getting people to question religion. Many people who do object to Religion do so in a balanced way to avoid alienating people of a particular religion.


"How many Muslims have threatened me? 19"
By this measure how many christians have treatened Iraqis? Did you feel treatened by christians at the time of the unabomber, the white powder sent in the mail after 9/11, when the church settles a pedophile case out of court etc.


"You have no idea what your intelligence services are defending against."
And neither do you. You are scaremongering.

"When was the last time someone called the Jews "Apes and Monkeys"? "
I think I have been called worse and heard muslims and jews and other nationalities called worse (another fine example of freedom of speech)

To be clear I am not against freedom of speech, I am saying we should at least consider that limits may not be a bad thing particularly when it incites hatred of minorities through unbalanced commentaries like this video.

In reality these limits exist in most countries (slander, obscenity!, product defamation). Yes product defamation!

My issue is with the extreme focus on muslims here when in reality their influence on western society is minimal.

I think it is more courageous and appropriate for us to go after the hypocrisy of established churches in the west then bashing a minority european religion for their fellows behaviour in failed states like afghanistan, somalia and saudia arabia.

Europe is not under threat from Islam any more then it is from Toyota cars.

438. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #152504 by Nairb on March 31, 2008 at 7:00 am

Seems to me this kind of video is going to have 2 effects.
1. Make mid stream christians discriminate against muslims and make midstream muslims feel alienated.
2. Make some muslims and christians question the role of religion in society.


Which of these is more likely to happen? I am convinced it is the first. In other words this video and associated message is only counterproductive.

The problem is that this film mixes up two issues , muslims or people of muslim origin feeling excluded and Islam's ridiculous rules.
When you try to eliminate the second you exacerbate the first (causing more muslims to turn inwards to their culture and faith).

So as a convinced atheist since 13 years old in an silly christian world I am a little annoyed at all this jumping up and down about muslim religion. This thread feels a little hysterical at times.

How many muslims have threatened you lately? When I take a train home from work early in the morning or late at night the majority of people are muslims. I have never once been threatened in over 10 years. I know many muslims and I never had them stuffing their religion at me like some christians do.

If you lived in Morocco or Tunisia for economic reasons would you feel integrated if a film like this comes out with the symbols switched to christianity or atheism.

While I fully support the idea of freedom of speech there are times when we should at least pause to consider that its effects are aligned with our objectives. Shouting "fire" in a crowded cinema comes to mind.

Also lets not forget that the west despite its economic advance is only about 20/30 years more enlightened then many muslim countries (Saudia Arabia aside). Alan Turing comitted suicide for being convicted of homosexual behaviour not too long ago in the UK. Look at the behaviour of catholic priests and hierarchy in Ireland and USA and how they escaped investigation.
Look at the rules around religous affiliation in many monarchies in europe.

Finally some basic views that I am sure most people here would agree with :
1. By a vast majority muslims do not threaten their neighbours (in europe).
2. Muslims are not well integrated in europe and are often excluded from society
3. All religions are myths and occasionally violent (we in the west have been the best at it)

Given the above, you would think we could now come up with a slightly more effective approach to consciousness raising then the muslim bashing that appears in a few comments here.

The majority of people in the west are christians, lets convert this big and powerful group to our side by starting with these "moderates" first.

Here's an idea... lets make a film portraying them as little Hitler's trying to take over the world with supporting photos from other countries around the world and liberal quotes from the bible.

I think its fair to say that this video is a misuse of freedom of speech.

439. How to abandon your God

Comment #140472 by Nairb on March 7, 2008 at 12:57 pm

To bring a European perspective on Religous attitudes- see below the results of the Eurobarometer poll done in 2005.

Four in five EU citizens have religious or spiritual beliefs. In fact, over one in two EU citizens believe there is a God (52%) and over one in four (27%) believe there is some sort of spirit or life force. Only 18% declares that they don't believe that is any sort of spirit, God or life force.

In 5 european countries less then a third of people have a belief in a God . In another 5 coountries over 25% of the population believe there is no God. In France this was 33% !

Reason for cheer !


For those who want all the data - click here - http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_225_report_en.pdf

440. Lords Approve Abolition Of Blasphemy

Comment #140455 by Nairb on March 7, 2008 at 11:56 am

Response to Rod -the -farmer in comment #86:

"But if you allow Hamas or others to launch dozens of rockets into Israel every day, you have to expect the Israeli military will defend their country by attacking the launch areas in Gaza"

The attacks by Hamas or Hezbollah are to be condemned. However you cannot compare their rockets to Israeli attacks. There maybe hundreds of these rocket attacks but the power of these attacks is extremely limited. Hezbollah rockets are dangerous if they land next to you but they are merely firecrackers compared to the clusterbombs used by the Israeli army in Lebannon.

The heavy handed retaliatory behaviour by Israel only causes an extremely assymetric conflict to continu by recruiting outraged people who would otherwise advocate mediation with Israel in order to improve their lot.

Try to obtain detailed data on the amount of explosives dropped by Israel in the last lebanese war and compare it to the firepower 1000s of Hezbollah rockets.The comparison of facts will perhaps change your mind on who is "threatening" in the region. You could start here http://www.international.ucla.edu/article.asp?parentid=56096

When you see a large muscular kid beating the hell out of a puny one, we don't say its ok because the puny one did to something to provoke/deserve it.

This is nothing new. In northern Ireland when Thatcher took a heavy handed approach with the Maze IRA prisoners, so they went on hunger strike. This was an incredible media boost for the IRA and their political party jumped from 4% to 20%. Guess what happened to Nasrallah and Hesbollah after Israel bombed southern Lebannon? Before that, guess what Israeli invasion led to the creation and growth of Hezbollah?

It seems to me that the "bulldozing for 30 miles" has been done and redone and is in fact one of the main sources of the problem. I think you would agree if you looked more closely behind the headlines to see things as they really are.

By the way I am not a supporter of pseudo social/religous Hamas and Hesbollah. They are possibly exploiting their own population for their own politico religous ends.
Unfortunately Western media help in this by not comparing clearly and fairly the 2 sides leaving many reasonable and middle of the road palestinians and Lebanese feeling that the religous parties are the only ones defending them.

441. Dispatches: Holy Offensive

Comment #136254 by Nairb on February 29, 2008 at 3:16 pm

JuxtaMonkey

Also, and completely off the subject...I am visiting Europe this Summer (1st time woo hoo!),

Definitley as one of the first things take a boat ride up the Seine. Its very great during the day and fantastic during the night with all the buildings lit up. You can get on the Bateaux Mouches at the Eiffel Tower. I think you can get off at Notre Dame and the Ile St Louis. This is the old heart of the city. You cand descend down to the level of the seine here and take a nice walk away from the bustle of the city. Take a baguette some cheese and a bottle of wine and ahave a picnic while watching the boats go by.
Near here is also is the old Marais and Latin Quarter. They are definitely worth a walk around with lots of old bookshops. Dont eat its a tourist trap. Other good places is the Rue de Rivoli with the Louvre ( dont try to do it all), Tuilleries and the famous Angeloina 's Cafe for the best hot chocolate.


France unlike Italy is very secular.
I havent met more then 2 or 3 religous people in 15 years.Once my wife (broight up an atheist) organised a parents meeting for sunday morning . When one mother (in some weird cult) said "people dont realise that some people have religous events on sunday" my wife replied "You can go far like this and what about people who play golf" . My wife couldn't see why she was so annoyed afterwards. That attitude made my day.

Btw In Paris speak french

442. Why do we believe in God? 2m study prays for answer

Comment #129740 by Nairb on February 19, 2008 at 2:20 pm

Steve

I liked your comment on the Anthropic Principle. However I think your final comments concedes too much by taking seriously the current version of an old argument.
Other people also seem to fall into a similar defensive position on the "right laws of physics".

"
So, the real problem may not be the existence of life, but the existence of a universe with the right laws of physics to allow the physical and chemical complexity required for life to arise."


But this argument is to be just a modern rerun of :
The earth is just the right size and distance from the sun required for people to live
The meadows and trees are just the right colour required to soothe and rest our eyes
History has created the right conditions required to enable our benevelent empire to rule the world
My nose is just the right size to facilitate the wearing of glasses

I presume nobody knows what variability the laws of physics have and what is the distribution of this variability.

Its just an argument posed to hide behind the wholly outer limits of current scientific understanding. I think this argument merits ridicule rather then a reasoned answer.