401. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #212259 by Bonzai on July 16, 2008 at 11:27 pm

Mitchell

I should also point out that if people are looking for definitives from philosophy, then you are asking for something unreasonable. No such knowledge exists when talking about the world and reality, including preceptions, and logical, semantic, conceptual abstractions of reality.

Actually, I think only philosophers think that philosophy has absolute and definitive answers, or at least pretend that absolute knowledge is attainable. A big problem I have with philosophers is that they have a tendency to take some provisional answers, some tentative knowledge and spin them into some over-arching "-isms". Their confident pronouncements almost always turn out to be wrong. I think the quest for knowledge is always open ended and our "truth" is always tentative. It often happens that by the time philosophers work out their systems of everything, the knowledge on which they build the systems is already obsolete.

402. Let's Get Rid of Darwinism

Comment #212232 by Bonzai on July 16, 2008 at 9:31 pm

So are you Newtonian or a Hamiltonian? Or, Heisenbergism and Schrodingerism turned out to be just different languages of saying the same thing and they were hence forth united and became Diracism,--boy this is a hard one.

403. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #212225 by Bonzai on July 16, 2008 at 9:01 pm

CD

when someone uses violent means be it knife, bat, brick, gun (or Taser even) to take something from a person with no regard for that person's life, they are placing their needs above their victim's and are thereby trivializing that person's life.

I agree with Steve. His point, if I understand correctly, is that a handgun simply makes taking a life too easy, too efficient and too "convenient", so convenient that it makes killing an almost detached and thoughtless act,--at least one has the option of being detached and thoughtless about it. On the other hand, if you kill with a knife, you would have to wrestle down your victim, having his blood gushed out on you.. it is messy and you can't escape the awareness of what taking a life really means.

Much have been written about the impersonal nature of modern warfare. You can push a button from what looks like a game console and kill a whole bunch of people. "User friendly" killing machines have a way of turning the taking of life into an abstraction. When war was carried out with spears and swords, killing was a much more intimate experience, you had to look into the eyes of your victim and slowly drain his life away, it was a powerful shock that one could not escape from or block out by just thinking of the working of mechanical devices.

404. VOICES OF SCIENCE - Available Now on DVD

Comment #212219 by Bonzai on July 16, 2008 at 8:47 pm

Layla

While I myself bristle at the idea that I wouldn't be able to "understand" or "get into" science (for example) simply because so many scientists happen to be males, I can understand that it can be a bit off-putting to have few people who "look like" you in the field. I guess the only way out is to continue to encourage women and "POC" to pursue careers and interest in science -- something that won't happen if it is claimed, per some misguided "feminist" scholars, that science is "inherently male" and "phallocentric" and not a part of "women's ways of knowing" and all that garbage.

Believing or not, I do agree with you. I was not making accusations like maybe utsusemia was,--though I can be wrong on that too. I was only relating my feeling, which I cannot control. It is like a picture that catches your eye because there is something odd about it. In pop culture science is identified with geekdom and boring people in lab coats and here "the voice of science" appear to be the voices of a bunch of old white guys in suit. I just can't help noticing it.

No, I never had "role models' that look like me, and I think the idea of role model is kind of lame anyway.

405. VOICES OF SCIENCE - Available Now on DVD

Comment #212171 by Bonzai on July 16, 2008 at 6:33 pm

When I saw the picture it struke me that they are all stuffy looking straight white males in suits who are middle aged or older. I kind of hope "the voice of science" would be more diverse, youthful and universal.

406. 'Condoms won't change HIV rates'

Comment #212169 by Bonzai on July 16, 2008 at 6:31 pm

In context the SA government doesn't even believe HIV causes AIDs and that apparently has nothing to do with religion, just bad science and conspiracy theory.

407. Anti-Darwinists turned away by Israeli academia

Comment #212168 by Bonzai on July 16, 2008 at 6:28 pm

Good job Hebrew U!

408. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #212154 by Bonzai on July 16, 2008 at 5:43 pm

Steve

I consider philosophy, when rigorous, to be close to mathematics. Mathematics is sometimes called the Queen of Sciences.

I beg to differ. I will grant that for logic, but that's about it.

Wigner spoke of the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics in physics, Weinberg played on that and mentioned the unreasonable ineffectiveness of philosophy.

The requirement of proofs and careful definitions keeps the mathematican honest. Mathematics does not over reach by making bold claims about the nature of reality, knowledge and so on.Instead it has specific and detail questions. Philosophy makes bold and broad claims, the generality and ambiguity of these questions almost garantee intellectual flabbiness for disciplines which attempt to "know" at such a high level, there is really very little constraint to what they can talk about and what they do talk about. I think the questions raised by philosophers are usually more interesting than the answers they offer. The Greeks probably had already asked most of the interesting questions.

"Philosophy" is a very broad term which means many things. Not all of it is arcane, pretentious and aweful. I in particular think that philosophy should stick to reflecting on what a good life is,--that would include fields such as ethics,-- as Socrates would have it. But nowadays "serious" philosophy, "academic" philosophy does strike me more often than not as obfiscations.

You mentioned scientists not being able to refute theists because of a lack of knowledge in philosophy, I think that is only because the scientist (or any atheist for that matter) allows himself to be dragged into playing that game while he doesn't have to. I seriously think that an argument for God's existence that would required special knowledge of philosophy,--an oxymoron IMO,--to refute is probably a bogus argument to begin with once you strip away the verbal smokescreen. By "bogus" I don't mean just invalid, but of the kind which is so pathetic that one would be ashamed to make it without the profound sounding verbal packaging.

Edited for clarity and typos.

409. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #211836 by Bonzai on July 16, 2008 at 10:30 am

Al

As for your "crimes of Passion" do you have any data, or shall we just keep taking your word on shit you simply make up.

2 out of 3 guns deaths are suicides or drug related. What % of murders are "crimes of passion" nationwide in the US? Care to weigh in, or shall we just mark your comment as "made up"?

Well, I don't have the numbers but I doubt that you do because that depends on how you classify things. Categories do overlap as anyone who has worked with social statistics would know,--and I have.

Are you saying all drug deals gone bad involve premeditated murder? I highly doubt that but maybe you have information about all the circumstances of the shootings, in that case please share with us.

While suicide may not be technically a "crime",but a lot of suicide deaths involving guns might have been avoided if guns are not so easily available.

Of course a determined suicidal person will always find a way to kill himself/herself, but very often suicide is an impulsive act rather than the result of deliberate planning. We know that through, for example, interviewing attempted suicide survivors. Many suicide victims suffer from some kind of mental disorders such as depression, it is not far fetched to think that many suicide deaths would have been avoided if there weren't guns conveniently laying around.

410. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211823 by Bonzai on July 16, 2008 at 10:21 am

Mitchell

I take philosophy as the study of knowledge, and the discussion of it's applications, implications, and meaning.

In my last post I said I didn't bother to be precise about what it means by "philosophy'. I am having in mind in particular metaphysics and the like, which does claim to generate knowledge. I think Kant and Hegal would have disagreed that they were not trying to discover anything new.

411. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #211806 by Bonzai on July 16, 2008 at 10:06 am

I have repeatedly advocated government involvement in poverty reduction

Oh is that right? Sorry that I miss them since they must be deeply drowned in the bottom of your "malodorous flood of emotive" "socialist" and commie bashing posts somewhere.. "Government involvement" means "state involvement", hence "socialism" which goes down the slippery slope of Stalin according to you, in case you miss that.

412. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #211798 by Bonzai on July 16, 2008 at 10:01 am

The focus so far has been on street crime and the like. But a lot of gun related deaths are crime of passion: guys going postal, man shooting estranged girlfriend, people get into fights over trivial things and some guy pull out a gun etc.

These people use a gun simply because there is one sitting around, If guns are outlawed they won't go through great length to buy a gun from the mafia. They probably don't even know where to find the mafia just like your everyday citizen wouldn't know where to find a hitman.

413. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #211781 by Bonzai on July 16, 2008 at 9:53 am

Gregg

I know you won't like this but I support government research into possible education and social programs to address poverty, domestic violence, women's rights, immigration, alternatives to incarceration, legalizing drugs and using the tax revenue to combat addiction, ith the aim at reducing the reasons for violent crime.

Well said so you will be joining Al's ass clown ledger soon.

414. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211749 by Bonzai on July 16, 2008 at 9:35 am

Mitchell

maybe I'm reading too much, or not enough into the meaning of "material". Maybe there is no reason to call anything else "non-material".

My problem too, except I will say this is a problem with philosophy in general. When you look carefully it is almost a castle build up only with words and not much else.

Religion is the deification of ignorance, philosophy,--I won't bother to be precise here,-- is counterfeit wisdom that involves dressing up our intellectual prejudice in big words and jargons. It is as though that we can actually discover anything by playing word games. Ignorance is ignorance no matter how you slice it, ingenious packaging and repackaging of ignorance with words is not going to create knowledge.

I was lying to say that I never cared about philosophy, I read quite a bit in my late teen. I even thought I wanted to be a philosopher, then I found out more and slapped myself senseless.

P.S What happen to your avatar? I like the dopey looking girl you had yesterday.

415. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #211735 by Bonzai on July 16, 2008 at 9:22 am

Bonzai claims Americans are idiots to fear state power, yet state power (when increased) has led to the most disgusting regimes. And funny, they were all out to "help people" and create a "just society", noble intentions gave us Stalin

See what I meant in post424.

416. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #211727 by Bonzai on July 16, 2008 at 9:17 am

Al

I will ignore your ass clownery and mark you down as uninterested in preventing violent crime.

I will return the courtesy to ignore you until you have other things more meaningful to say other than verbal abuse, commie baiting and paranoid drooling about the big frightening state and black helicopters.

417. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #211703 by Bonzai on July 16, 2008 at 8:59 am

You have just made your entry into my "fucktard ledger". Congratulations on your arrival, you get a monthly newsletter that updates you on all the new hot items in the world of being a fucktard irrationalist.

Who wouldn't anyway? Judging by your recent performance may be it is an honour roll of sort.

You have it right man MORE state control is the answer.

Well outside the U.S. "state" is not a dirty word. It has it roles. Would you want state regulations on health and safety. To dismiss something simply because the state is involved is a (almost) uniquely American idiocy.

418. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #211683 by Bonzai on July 16, 2008 at 8:48 am

Ian

The overwhelming majority of gun related deaths in America are criminals killing other criminals.

Then why do you need a gun for self defence, assumming that you are not a criminal? What was the deal with the frothing in the mouth joker yesterday who cited some numbers claiming that an average American (whatever that is) has to defend himself with a gun 100 times a day or something so he needs a gun to protect his pet gold fish?

419. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #211676 by Bonzai on July 16, 2008 at 8:42 am

Sciros

Gregg, strawman alert on comment #396 there. No-one's asking to live completely without fear

Ironic isn't it? Almost every pro gun argument here is based on fear and paranoia, what if some guy breaks into my house...what if some hobo tries to rape by poodle, what if some teenager trying to take a joy ride on my truck,--you truck is like your wife in redneck land..,-- etc..Well with the exception of macho Al who argues that it is his inalienable right as an American to kill stuffs for fun on weekends (you don't need to a real gun for target shooting and you don't have to own one)

I think the pro gun people are by and large the most frightened lot. If you live in a society that generates so much fear, you'd better find out why that is and address the root causes. Sleeping with a loaded gun under your pillow wouldn't make you rest easy.

420. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #211667 by Bonzai on July 16, 2008 at 8:28 am

tyler

"Gun control? We need bullet control! I think every bullet should cost 5,000 dollars..."

I heard it costs 70 cents (Chinese currency)in China. You've to pay for the bullet if you are executed by the state so everyone knows they should not spend the last 70 cents, just in case... It is the old price, I am sure the price of bullets has gone up because of inflation after a decade of "miracle growth".

421. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #211663 by Bonzai on July 16, 2008 at 8:23 am

Steve

And as for being a non-gun owner wanting to dictate gun policy (assuming I could dictate policy). I don't think what matters so much is not having owned a gun. What matters is having a body that is succeptible to bullets.

That is brilliant. Can I quote it in future debates?

422. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #210917 by Bonzai on July 15, 2008 at 8:55 am

Did you ever chance upon the notion that perhaps firearms are an enjoyable sport. Target shooting, trap, skeet, sporting clays?

I don't know why would anyone want to carry a concealed handgun to go for "target shooting, skeet trap and sporting clays." Maybe I am not a good sport and should go out more.

423. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #210909 by Bonzai on July 15, 2008 at 8:41 am

Hungarianelephant,

You are of course correct that there are other factors such as peer pressure and the cool factor to make a criminal wants a gun, but then the motive would not just be to commit a crime if the person chooses to go through the more costly and difficult route to acquire a gun while a base ball bat would do the job nicely.

In the same way, peer pressure and the machismo factor other than just "protection" may equally explain why some people insist on owning guns.

424. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #210898 by Bonzai on July 15, 2008 at 8:15 am

Hungarainelephent

I'd be sceptical about assuming that criminals apply some sort of business analysis in their decision as to whether to carry a gun, or as to whether to shoot you or not.

You don't need to go through conscious planning to do the kind of 'business analysis' that I described. We make them all the time without second thought.

When the price of spinach goes up, you may eat more lettuce instead, that is an economical decision. If someone offers you a job with minimal pay for 3 hours a day but it will cost you 2 hours of travel plus transportation cost you will likely turn it down. This is "business analysis"

You don't have to be working on a 5 year plan to be a business person. :)

425. Taking a Cue From Ants on Evolution of Humans

Comment #210818 by Bonzai on July 15, 2008 at 5:42 am

I predict Wooter will show up with his psychobables to laugh at us for 'having respect' for ants .

426. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #210812 by Bonzai on July 15, 2008 at 5:23 am

CD

I won't argue that gun violence wouldn't go down if ownership of personal firearms were outlawed (although I can imagine a few counter-intuitive scenarios where this might not be the case, at least in some area of the U.S.).

I think any gun ban would have to be consistent and comprehensive in order to work.

Illegal guns come from legal sources and the origin of the guns are important. Frothing in the mouth Broshiesq is obviously too dense to understand it.

If your county bans gun and makes a big point advertising it, while guns are easily available in the neighbouring jurisdictions, then not surprisingly you may attract a lot of gun toting criminals. In such a partial ban gun availability hasn't changed for criminals because there is no visa requirement or border check for an American to go from a gun free for all jurisdiction to a gun free one. Given that the criminals can get guns just as easily,--business overhead unchanged,-- but you have declared yourself disarmed why should anyone be surprised if gun crimes go up?.

We don't need the NRA to tell us that.

427. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #210726 by Bonzai on July 15, 2008 at 2:56 am

This is simply not true. How in the shit can you call stealing or a "black market" deal, getting a gun from a legal source??

Where do you think the black market guns come from? Do the make them themselves?

This is absolutely not true. In statistics compiled from interviews with prison inmates, time and again, they admit they targeted victims who seemed the most vulnerable and this included targeting areas that they knew were so-called "gun-free" zones, for example. You really should read Something on criminology. Go online and try to educate yourself regarding criminal behavior, personal protection, and the law, before you keep getting things so wrong.

Did these inmate shoot their victims? Where did they get their guns from? I bet from the gun free for all zones in the neighbouring states. It goes without saying that if you want an effective gun ban it has to be done consistently across the board.

It is a waste of time if you read all the literature,--or NRA propaganda,--without asking basic questions.

Yes, the business major by day, criminal by night, duly applying the principles learned in the classroom. As Christopher Walken put it: You're a cantaloupe.

Do you have to be a business major to try to get the job done in the cheapest way? If you are crackhead in need for a fix I would think that you probably wouldn't bother getting a gun if you have to go through a lot of troubles and pay a lot of cash to get it. Instead you would probably make do with a knife or something. Do you have to be a business major to understand this?

You would do nothing of the sort. If you intended to rob me, I would stick a non-sequitur up your ass and beat you about the head with your own poorly constructed attempts at logic, but that wouldn't prevent me from also putting one between your eyes, and then I could say, "Gee, that's funny, I don't Feel less safe."

Your violent and abusive tendency, paranoid and irrational mindset are amply displayed here. You are the walking exhibition of why some people should not be allowed to own guns.

428. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #210719 by Bonzai on July 15, 2008 at 2:38 am

I am assuming that usually the police in Hong Kong do not carry firearms.

They do. But they are not nearly as trigger happy as cops in North America. Police shootings are also rare.

429. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #210712 by Bonzai on July 15, 2008 at 2:24 am

Broshiesq

Judging from your emotional response I would think that you are exactly the kind of people who should not be allowed to own guns because of clearly demonstrated mental instability.

Check out the shooting that happened in 2002 at Appalachian School of Law in Virginia and the role that guns in the hands of lawful citizens played in stopping the killer,

Where did the killer get his guns in the first place? Did he create them in his basement?

You didn't address my point. This kind of shootings are rare events, unless you live in a war zone.

430. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #210697 by Bonzai on July 15, 2008 at 1:56 am

CD

What I do know is that if you outlaw guns, criminals will still have them. Furthermore even if you were able to do away with all firearms, violent criminals will still prey on those weaker than them.

That is debatable.

Criminals get their guns directly or indirectly through legal sources, either through legal purchases or stealing from lawful gun owners,-including guns on sale in the black market. I would think that it is very improbable for your run of the mill crack head to make his own guns.

This has been pointed out many times.

Also, there is an arm race effect going on as well. The criminal probably wouldn't need to find a gun to commit a robbery if he knows his intended victim isn't armed. A gun is an overhead cost if you are a criminal, and the cost is high if you have to get it when there is a strict prohibition,--few guns available and very stiff penalty if caught with one. I have no reason to expect a criminal would behave differently than any business person in his preference for lower operating costs.

Looking at it this way, owning a gun may actually make you less safe. If I intend to rob you and expecting that you have a gun, I will probably shoot you first. Otherwise I may just take your cash and run.

I grow up in Hong Kong, which has very strict gun control law. Gun crimes are rare. Most people don't own guns and neither do the criminals. Arm robberies and gang fighting are commonly carried out with sharp objects such as long knives or sharpened screw drivers.

431. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #210671 by Bonzai on July 15, 2008 at 12:57 am

Besides, guns are often used against burglars...isn't that overly accessive? A burglar is just trying to steal from you, there is no risk to your life. Yet people using guns against them all the time. A couple years ago, the nephew of a guy I know was shot and killed attempted to steal a guys truck.

An excellent point that has not been brought up. A person reached for his gun based on perceived threats, the perception may not be realistic, and even if the threat is real, responding with a deadly weapon may still be way out of proportion as in the case you describe.

I heard in the 1980's some Japanese exchange student in the U.S. went trick or treating on Halloween. It was a bit late for trick or treating, he approached a door, the guy in the house saw him coming from the window and told him to freeze. The Japanese student didn't understand the meaning of "freeze" and continued walking towards the door. The guy thought he was a robber and shot him through the door. I heard that for many years afterwards the Japanese government gave out pamphlets to students visiting the U.S. containing English words that they were advised to remember because knowing these words might save their lives. The word "freeze" was top on the list.

432. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #210653 by Bonzai on July 15, 2008 at 12:16 am

Speaking of Va tech the serial killer got all his guns legally.

433. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #210647 by Bonzai on July 14, 2008 at 11:54 pm

CD

Not if they are properly trained. That's how you know whether or not you should be carrying a firearm in public. If your first reaction when you "feel" threatened is to go for your gun, you shouldn't be carrying it. You go for your gun (and use it) when you ARE threatened, not just because you're scared.

You are talking about some imaginary world. I am sure your description is valid in the arm force where everyone has gone through intensive training,--but even that doesn't prevent panic shootings of civilians on a few highly publicized occasions,-- but that is quite irrelevant to the topic at hand. The pro right to bear arm crowd are arguing that Joe public should be able to get a gun at Walmart. They are against gun control.

It is not cheap to get the proper training unless you are in the army or police. As someone said earlier, it would cost a couple of thousand euros to have a good psychological assessment just to find out who is fit to own a gun and the tax payers shouldn't be footing the bill.

Now you may want to talk about gun ownership as an expensive hobby for the enthusiasts that can afford it, but it is a completely different topic.

434. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #210646 by Bonzai on July 14, 2008 at 11:45 pm

Mitchell

The big picture is what matters. In a single scenerio it could very well be better to have guns, but the cost to lose ratio of making guns accessible is what matters. Over all, not individual cases. If over all this results in more harm than good than it is not the favorable option.

Well put. That is exactly what I was trying to say in post#157 regarding CD's example of Va tech shooting.

I am sorry that you are in ill health, hope you get better soon.

435. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #210625 by Bonzai on July 14, 2008 at 10:59 pm

CD

I can't help but believe that if I had been sitting in one of those Va Tech classrooms with a concealed Glock, the final body count would have been less.

Well if every student and professor carries a concealed handgun I can imagine shoot outs on a regular basis, You'd better duck and cover every
time when angry students confront their profs over failed exams or their TAs over a few marks on homework assignments,when frat boys overloaded with booze and hormone fighting over girls, or when budding intellectuals having passionate debates over politics and "-isms". And then there will probably be a few accidental shootings when kids are just horsing around with their guns on frosh night.

Va Tech is an extremely rare event,--in the sense of statistics and common sense-- you are basically suggesting that we should massively increase the risk of being shot in order to only marginally increase the chance of survival in a very unlikely event, I must question the soundness of that kind of thinking. Moreover, as Brian pointed out, you may not stand a better chance of survival even if you get a gun in the Va Tech scenario because someone or the police, for that matter, may shoot you by mistake when there is a massive confusion and everyone kind of looks like the shooter.

436. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #210621 by Bonzai on July 14, 2008 at 10:42 pm

Save them time to reload? Or may be they like to caress them and have orgies with them?

I think gun is a fetish for some people, period.

437. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #210609 by Bonzai on July 14, 2008 at 10:26 pm

Instead of arguing so passionately that they need guns for protections, perhaps the gun supporters here should consider why they always feel so threatened.

Most of us who don't live in the U.S. find this paranoid mindset difficult to comprehend. If there is really so much threat lurking in every corner, so many bogymen waiting to get you that you can't feel safe without arming yourself to the teeth, you live in a dysfunctional society, period.

It will take a lot more than a gun for every man woman and child to build a society where everyone feels safe and secure.Genuine efforts to create a safe and secure environment must involve maintenance of the civil society and investments in public good. But in the U.S. of A this is called "socialism" and would be rejected by freedom loving Americans, who would rather be imprisoned in their own fear.

438. Dalai Lama defends Islam as peaceful religion

Comment #210445 by Bonzai on July 14, 2008 at 2:49 pm

Ian,

You shouldn't confuse your dislike of the Dalai Lama with the legitimate grievances of the Tibetans. I find your way of implying that the Tibetans should be grateful to their Chinese conquerors rather disturbing, You are saying that they don't deserve any better and should be thankful what they have as it could have been worse.

I don't know what Tibet was like before 1953, you hear conflicting stories from both sides and the truth was probably somewhere in between.

I don't believe in the Richard Geer version of Tibet being heaven on earth governed by wise, philosopher monks; but I don't believe in the Chinese propaganda that it was living hell either. I heard that in Lasha there is a museum where they put torturing equipment on display, claiming that these were used by the Tibetan monks and landlords to torture the peasants. But according to an archaeologist who was a former employee, these devices were actually brought into Tibet by the Manchus when they conquered the place. The Manchurian conquest, oddly, was used by the Chinese government as proof that Tibet has been "an integral part of China". Even more ironic, the Manchus themselves were considered barbarian invaders by the Han all the way until the republican revolution.

Regardless what Tibet was like under the theocratic monks, the abuse by China is pretty well documented.

439. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #210338 by Bonzai on July 14, 2008 at 9:27 am

As Last Greek Standing is unable to condemn Hezbollah for saying Jews spread AIDS, you are unable to condemn Chavez for his misdeeds

More diversions.

You sound as though the Columbian government is an innocent victim of Chavez's, little do you mention that it is fascist government which uses U.S funded and trained death squads to terrorize its own people. You also fail to mention that the U.S. is using the Columbian arm force as a proxy to stirred up conflict with Venezuela.

Why so one sided, eh?

P.S. As a lowly wage earner I do have to work at working hours, unlike the capitalists who can post on rd.net during the entire work day (and only during the work day apparently), so have to sign off for now. Will be back tonight.

440. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #210335 by Bonzai on July 14, 2008 at 9:20 am

Phil,

Edited it. Sounds better, or worse?

441. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #210328 by Bonzai on July 14, 2008 at 9:13 am

Mord

Due to the U.S.'s economic interests, it is actually better to have peace throughout the world.

Of course that goes without saying, But what kind of peace, peace in whose terms? I think in that sense even Hitler would prefer peace.(not that I am saying the U.S. is like Nazi Germany)

442. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #210326 by Bonzai on July 14, 2008 at 9:08 am

Al

I won't fall for your distraction tactics... the "Look other people do it worse."

Except we are not talking about 'other people', we are talking about the very people who make those accusations and who are by far the worst offenders of the kind of things they complain about, and you are bending backward and twisting into a pretzel to make excuses for them. Does the word hypocrite mean anything to you? Why don't you have have a bit of consistency and apply the same standard?

Let's face it. The U.S. hates Chavez because he shows the people of South Central America that they can live with dignity instead of slaving for the their American corporate overloads.

443. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #210295 by Bonzai on July 14, 2008 at 8:18 am

And based on the Columbian action, you see an interesting difference. Columbia sought to rid itself of these narco-terrorists (FARC). And what does Venezuela do? That's right it SUPPORTS FARC and allows this terrorist group to use Venezuelan territory to launch raids and other attacks inside Columbia, then the arch narcissist Chavez threatens Columbia when Columbia demands an end to aid to the terrorists.

When it come to arming and funding insurrections and terrorists no one can top the U.S, especially in South America. It's a bit rich to accuse Chevaz for things that the U.S. is by far the worst offender.

As for nacro terrorism, most of the drug trade in Columbia is run by rightwing criminal cartels with links to the government, which is a terrorist government for most parts of its existence.

Laurie

Good posts.

444. Conversation between Richard Dawkins and John Lennox

Comment #210222 by Bonzai on July 14, 2008 at 5:44 am

beliefs about what reality contains should always be formed on the basis of evidence or rational argument; so that "faith" is inherently an unethical way to form your beliefs

Do you believe that when people say they believe in God they always commit 100% with all their beings?

I think many believers are actually more hesitant and agnostic in their "beliefs" than the words faith and "believe" suggest.

It is missing the point then to insist that their "beliefs" must be based on evidence and water tight rational arguments.

We do many things, hold many tentative opinions without throughly examining them in light of logic and evidence. If we have to be always using the scientific method on all our thoughts and actions then we wouldn't even be able to carry out the most elementary functions in everyday life, we would be too consumed with doubts and confusions even for taking a small step.

In the real world we are often, no, almost always, required to take actions and form opinions without all the evidence. In most cases, all the evidence is simply unavailable. Do you know how expensive it is to create a simple data set in studying even the most mundane kind of social phenomena?

In the vast bulk of our lives, we rely on instincts and heuristics rather than rationally, carefully examining evidence in the way scientists
formulate and test hypothesis.

For many folks a belief in god is not so much a metaphysical and intellectual commitment, it stays at that vague, instinctual level. It is a visualizing device, a set of cultural vocabularies and a clutch that they use to cope when in need. In my experience many nominal believers are not particularly interested in the kind of debates we do here. They don't really care about logic, and probably not that much about god either.

EDIT

I see that Steve is not happy because he wants to define god in a way that he can pin down in a debate. I think it is a fair expectation if someone attempts to invoke God as an explanation for some specific phenomenon, or to otherwise stake out a metaphysical position. But other than that, I have no problem with people 'believing' in some slippery God. The function such a God serves is rather slippery and flexible anyway.

445. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #210214 by Bonzai on July 14, 2008 at 5:19 am

Laurie

Great point highlighting the difference between 'training' and 'education'.This is a difference often lost to governments and the media.

A French mathematician wrote rather dryly that the U.S.A, was a strange place where people talked about teacher training and driver education. That observation probably applies in most of the English speaking world to varying degrees.

446. Man Sues Church Over 'God Injury'

Comment #209918 by Bonzai on July 13, 2008 at 2:01 pm

I think he should sue God instead of the church.

447. When too much Rapture is barely enough

Comment #209913 by Bonzai on July 13, 2008 at 1:50 pm

The scatologists?

448. Children Are Naturally Prone To Be Empathic And Moral

Comment #209904 by Bonzai on July 13, 2008 at 1:43 pm

We can't get precise predictions, but we can get some idea of statistical ranges.

But if Taratonis wants to scan someone's brain and label him as a psychopath based on the outcome, he'd better do a lot better than just getting some ideas of statistical range.

EDIT: Getting a statistical range is not 'tracking'. This refers to the distribution in time of a swarm of trajectories, tracking means you want to follow a single trajectory. .

449. Children Are Naturally Prone To Be Empathic And Moral

Comment #209891 by Bonzai on July 13, 2008 at 1:28 pm

Steve

I would not be surprised if one could model a brain fully, and run simulations of behaviour resulting from different inputs.

Being able to run simulations with controlled inputs are quite different from being able to make predictions about a real brain,-- of a real person living in the real world.

We can already run simulations of chaotic systems, just look at any book in dynamical systems with beautiful pictures of attractors, etc. but they are still chaotic and you still can't make any prediction in the sense of tracking a trajectory,--not even about the simulated system. Making predictions in this sense is not the point of these exercises, you want to see how chaos unfolds.

I don't think brain activity is chaotic in the same way the weather is.

Probably not, it would be a lot more complex and likely even less tractable.

In any case I think your time line that within one hundred years we will finally be done with the illusion of freedom and choice is highly optimistic, or rather, pessimistic. Just glad that I won't be around to experience the glory of the machine.

450. Children Are Naturally Prone To Be Empathic And Moral

Comment #209768 by Bonzai on July 13, 2008 at 9:35 am

In the real world, chaotic systems have constraints.

That is true. But I don't think we are even able to figure out what the relevant constraints are for something like trying to predict psychopathic crimes based on brain scans even if behaviour is "deterministic". This is not only nonlinear, but also strongly coupled to the external world. Same is probably true with anything pertaining to human behaviour. This is the original point. The thing about chaos is not even necessary since we don't even have any equation here even for an isolated brain, let alone a coupled brain environment system. I just use that to highlight the fallacy of eqauting determinism with predictability.