Refugee Crisis: Richard Dawkins Slams Saudi Arabia’s Offer To Build 200 Mosques In Germany

Sep 11, 2015

By Kathryn Snowdon

Richard Dawkins has lambasted Saudi Arabia’s “sick” offer to build 200 mosques for refugees in Germany, as the Gulf state still refuses to shelter those fleeing war-stricken Syria.

Dawkins, 74, branded the news “either a sick joke or sick insult to German generosity” on Thursday after reports emerged that the wealthy Arab state offered to build the mosques in the European country, which is expecting to take 800,000 refugees this year.

While thousands of refugees make the perilous journey across continents to European countries, Saudi Arabia and five other Gulf states have offered zero resettlement places.


Read the full article by clicking the name of the source below.

92 comments on “Refugee Crisis: Richard Dawkins Slams Saudi Arabia’s Offer To Build 200 Mosques In Germany

  • Judging by tweets at the bottom, the title should have said people slammed it. But every opinion Professor Dawkins states, no matter how popular, gets reported as one of his whacky antics, by a media that can’t be bothered to actually make a case against anything else he’s ever said.
    Report abuse

  • @OP – Richard Dawkins has lambasted Saudi Arabia’s “sick” offer to build 200 mosques for refugees in Germany, as the Gulf state still refuses to shelter those fleeing war-stricken Syria. It makes Islamic sense!
    Having armed the rebels who have made life intolerable causing the people to flee for their lives. . . . .

    It’s all part of the political ideologists’ propagandist term, “The Arab Spring”! – providing the sort of “benefits” provided by applying “faith-thinking” to international politics.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/too-late-the-sponsors-of-ideology-find-they-have-made-a-monster-9687723.html

    * . . the international community decided against air strikes on the Assad regime.

    Instead we encouraged two oil-rich Arab states, Qatar and Saudi Arabia, to continue arming rebel groups to oust the ruthless dictator in Damascus. Now, thanks to those weapons, one of the groups has grown into the Frankenstein’s monster of the so-called Islamic State whose brutal fighters have swept through Syria and Iraq, crucifying and beheading like a deadly inhuman tide.

    .Saudi Arabia has been a major source of financing to rebel and terrorist organisations since the 1970s, thanks to the amount it has spent on spreading its puritan version of Islam, developed by Mohammed Abdul Wahhab in the 18th century. The US State Department has estimated that over the past four decades Riyadh has invested more than $10bn (£6bn) into charitable foundations in an attempt to replace mainstream Sunni Islam with the harsh intolerance of its Wahhabism. EU intelligence experts estimate that 15 to 20 per cent of this has been diverted to al-Qa’ida and other violent jihadists.

    The refugees may have been made homeless and stateless by Saudi armed and funded jihadists, – but obviously their greatest need is for mosques to convert them to the TROOOOO form of ISLAM!! – According to faith-head thinking that is!
    Report abuse

  • if Saudi Arabia really intend to help the refuges then taking in the refuges is the best way to do it, since the Syrian refuges are closer to Saudi Arabia than Germany , this opening mosques is just not going to help , in fact it might bring with it loads of problems to Germany .
    Report abuse

  • And suddenly the truth is accidentally revealed. It’s more important for there to be more practicing muslims in western countries than to have more live muslims in muslim countries.
    Report abuse

  • According to one source, a number of migrants are converting to Christianity to facilitate entrance.

    If true, 200 mosques may be moot – a sort of religious arms race.
    Report abuse

  • What we are witnessing is Episode Two in the 21st century saga of The Great Demographic Shift of growing young populations in the European hinterland moving into the European vacuum where populations are aging and declining. Behind the myopia of an immediate humanitarian crisis ostensibly caused by the flare up of civil war in Syria aggravated by the Shia-Sunni war-of-all-against-all in the ISIS Caliphate, lies the resolution of hundreds of millions, mostly under thirty, who will be damned if they are going to live in those sweltering stinking sewers anymore -dirt poor, uneducated, and unemployed.

    It’s no surprise that Germany with one of the lowest sub-replacement fertility rates in Europe is going to accept the largest contingent of “asylum seekers” graciously tipping their hat to immediate gratification of praise for their patronage in exchange for the longer term decline in ethnic European populations. After the trickle, the flood.
    Report abuse

  • Bonnie: According to one source, a number of migrants are converting to Christianity to facilitate entrance.
    If true, 200 mosques may be moot – a sort of religious arms race.

    The Catholic church may have to reinstate the Inquisition. Curiously one of the main motivations for the original Spanish edition, was to “test” the faith of converted Jews many of whom were found wanting and treated …er…harshly.
    Report abuse

  • bonnie
    Sep 11, 2015 at 9:05 pm

    According to one source, a number of migrants are converting to Christianity to facilitate entrance.

    It is understandable that many of those fleeing from ISIS might be Christians!
    Has the Greek Orthodox Church made any offers?
    Report abuse

  • There are considerable responsibilities for this crisis in the actions of Western powers and their Arab allies – as we discussed on RDFS last year and earlier!

    https://www.richarddawkins.net/2014/06/govt-announces-campaign-to-save-youth-from-atheism/#li-comment-146534
    It is unfortunate that meddling foreign powers, fermenting unrest, launching ill-thought out military adventures, and supplying modern weapons, did not recognise this fairly obvious fact, BEFORE they destabilised or overthrew governments and started civil wars!

    https://www.richarddawkins.net/2014/06/govt-announces-campaign-to-save-youth-from-atheism/#li-comment-146543
    President Barack Obama asks Congress to approve $500m (£294m) to train and equip members of the “moderate Syrian armed opposition”
    Report abuse

  • 14
    NearlyNakedApe says:

    Meanwhile in Saudi Arabia, a huge construction crane falls on the Great Mosque of Mecca… If they plan on buiding those mosques following the same standards of work safety as they do for their own, then Allah help those poor workers…

    Worst country in the world. In so many ways.
    Report abuse

  • “As you sow so shall you reap.”

    So, perhaps the secret stitch-ups of the 1916 Sykes Picot Agreement and the 1917 Balfour Declaration, the 1953 illegal overthrow by Britain of the democratically elected President of Iran Mohammad Mosaddegh, the 1956 illegal invasion of Egypt, the bombing of Tripoli in 1986, the two invasions of Iraq in 1997, and again, illegaly, in 2003, and the recent bombing of Libya, didn’t help after all!

    Oh, I almost forgot to include the putting in place by the American and British Governments of the two dictarorial maniacs Saddam Hussein and Muammar Gaddafi.

    But at least we can be proud to have done our bit towards helping to spread the worldwide caliphate; and none more so than the UK’s own Anthony Blair.
    Report abuse

  • The stage is set for mass migration from hinterland regions to Europe. The actors have put the drama in motion. From here on out, the stage props- this civil war here that genocide there -will vary but the plot will remain the same. Subsequent to the declaration of a humanitarian crisis, millions of refugees fleeing blood-letting and atrocity at home will wash up on European shores, some drowned, but most alive and kicking their way through the shabbier countries of the EU, seeking a better life for themselves and their families.

    Most of us forget historical precedents combined with the irreversible power of operant conditioning. We are living in the second decade of the 21st century. Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, -other countries too many to list here in the Middle East, Africa, Central Asia have been fighting a medieval Thirty-Years War exacerbated by the modern demographic paradox of youthful populations breeding like rabbits. Refugees have learned decisively that the odds of Europe taking them in have shifted, perhaps permanently in their favor. More ominously the migrants realize that a precedent will be set for future waves of immigrants with plausible asylum claims validated by the horror and displacement of endless wars. The nail in the European coffin will be hammered by a growing non-European, mostly Muslim ethnic base resettled in the manicured gated communities that comprise the EU. They will advocate for ever higher immigration numbers with an irrefutable argument: “You did it for me, why can’t you do it for the others.”
    Report abuse

  • NearlyNakedApe
    Sep 12, 2015 at 9:47 am
    .
    Meanwhile in Saudi Arabia, a huge construction crane falls on the Great Mosque of Mecca…

    . . . . Probably an example of Quoranic science and engineering – Confirmed as valid by using faith-thinking! 🙂
    Report abuse

  • @OP – While thousands of refugees make the perilous journey across continents to European countries,

    If Europe really wanted to fix the problem, they could reverse the stupid policies of overt and clandestine “regime change”, join the Russians in supporting and arming the Assad government and the Syrian army, so they can impose martial law, put down various rebellions, and restore law and order.
    Then the various refugees could return to their homes in Syria and resume their earlier peaceful lives! They could also get the US to join them in stopping and embargoing arms sales to Saudi Arabia, which would help to reduce the flow of refugees from Africa!

    Tackling causes, deals with problems far more effectively than chasing after symptoms! Idealistic notions of setting up puppet pseudo-democracies, don’t work in the proximity of fundamentalist Islamic populations!
    Report abuse

  • If Europe really wanted to fix the problem, they could reverse the stupid policies of overt and clandestine “regime change”, join the Russians in supporting and arming the Assad government and the Syrian army, so they can impose martial law, put down various rebellions, and restore law and order.

    We’re all frustrated with the intractable internecine wars in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. etc. and I couldn’t be more of one mind with those who advocate keeping the U.S. from meddling. But really. Let Putin’s Russia sort out the mess with military force? Do you feel all right today, Alan?

    I just finished watching somewhat belatedly the great BBC series House of Cards. I can picture Putin a la Francis Urquhart (Ian Richardson) saying to Europe… You do trust me…DON’T YOU?

    By the way, Saudi Arabia need not bother worrying about Mosque building in Europe. Nations which so generously welcome and support refugees will surely build houses of worship to accommodate religious needs -feeding the spirit as well as the body so to speak.

    A more sensible solution would be to set up refugee camps in safe areas in the region supported, subsidized and protected by the international community in cooperation with responsible indigenous populations, led by the EU and the U.S. The alternative is not pretty. Once settled in the EU, refugees will wave on over their family, relatives, neighbors and friends -the whole Shia or Sunni theocratic congregation. Once set up on the largess of European welfare states, their residency will become permanent. Like concrete.
    Report abuse

  • Melvin
    Sep 12, 2015 at 9:59 pm

    We’re all frustrated with the intractable internecine wars in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. etc. and I couldn’t be more of one mind with those who advocate keeping the U.S. from meddling.

    Syria was one of the more civilised Islamic states where Muslims, Xtians etc could live together, while the Assad regime used the necessary force to keep the jihadists at bay! It is only because of the active undermining of the Syrian army and the Assad regime along with the arming of assorted rebel groups by incompetent manipulative foreign powers that the humanitarian crisis has been caused. The civil wars were started to try to facilitate regime change and the installation of puppet governments of various conflicting political flavours. The resulting refugee crises have been the similar in Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, parts of Africa, and Syria!
    The war OF terror – dressed up as the war ON terror, has been instigated all over the world.

    But really. Let Putin’s Russia sort out the mess with military force? Do you feel all right today, Alan?

    I did not say that. I said Europe and Russia should jointly arm and support the Syrian army and its law enforcement agencies (reversing the policy of undermining them and arming rebel terrorists), so that law and order can be restored and the refugees can return safely to their own homes.

    There will still be plenty of refugees from the other countries where foreign initiated civil wars have more effectively destroyed any semblance of law and policing.

    It is noteworthy, that after decades of threats to Iran, the West has suddenly wakened up to the possible alternatives they have created in its neighbours!

    The likes of Cameron regularly shout about the “right” of Israel (with all its Zionist abuses) to exist, yet when it comes to the “rights” of Arab states (apart from oil-stooges) to exist, there is an immediate about face.

    If the Turks don’t cool down their conflicts with the Kurds, there will be yet another country in a state of overt civil war!
    Report abuse

  • I said Europe and Russia should jointly arm and support the Syrian army and its law enforcement agencies (reversing the policy of undermining them and arming rebel terrorists), so that law and order can be restored and the refugees can return safely to their own homes.

    Wishful thinking? I don’t think the European contribution to arming the rebels is significant. And anyway, having the weaponry does not guarantee victory – the Iraqi army was very well armed when it collapsed against IS.

    Your policy is to pacify the violent with the existing government big stick (Hobbes Leviathan). But would that be fighting another big stick (Sunni Islam). Syria is a Sunni majority country with an Alawite-led (Shia) Assad regime. Assad has lost a lot of men and may not have survived to now without Iranian/Hezbollah intervention.

    The civil war in Syria is to a large extent a proxy war between Iran (Shia) and Saudi (Sunni). Tension between Sunni and Shia Islam has been increasing since the Islamic revolution in Iran. More recently stirred up greatly by the removal of Saddam Hussein to introduce another Shia government in the region. Europe and Russia would be seen as intervening on the side of Shia Islam, possibly resulting in an increased movement of Sunni Jihadists into Syria to fight against the western and Shia infidels.

    Not that I have an answer to the problem.
    Report abuse

  • Marktony
    Sep 13, 2015 at 7:44 am

    Not that I have an answer to the problem.

    I think we are looking for best options, not perfect solutions!

    The US and Europe are already involved in air-strikes, and are at present playing silly-sods with Russia and at the UN, rather than fostering international cooperation.
    The issue is: “How can the damage be repaired and further stupidity avoided?”

    Instigating drawn out civil wars, was never a beneficial option for the resident population, where the alleged “Arab Spring” was started by manipulative foreign powers!
    Report abuse

  • Without the machinary of democratic government and the disciplines and traditions which go with it, the Arab Spring was never going to succeed.

    Added to which the emnities and divisions inherent in theocracies would have put paid to it in any case.

    Those of us who live in mature liberal parliamentary democracies too easily loose sight of just how fortunate we are; and we do so at our peril, because there are those who would deprive us of them given half a chance.

    It seems that Fascism is always on heat.
    Report abuse

  • The so-called Arab Spring started in Tunisia, where a western-backed government was seen by the people as a crony dictatorship. In fact there were a number of western backed ageing crony dictators in the region, such as Mubarak and Qadaffi. Unsurprisingly, the people in these countries were rather cynical about the legitimacy of their governments. Tunisia may have been seen by the West as a role model Arab country at the time, but it suffered from high youth unemployment and corrupt rulers kept in power by police repression. The protests leading up to the revolution were led by pro-democracy groups, trade unions and thousands of other ordinary people. Following on from Tunisia, the unrest spread (encouraged by social media) to other Arab countries.

    The international community should be using it’s influence to support (where it exits) and push for the introduction of the “machinary of democratic government and the disciplines and traditions which go with it”. The people of our own western countries no longer seem to support an international policy of “keeping a lid on it”, and anyway it doesn’t seem to be working these days.
    Report abuse

  • Marktony
    Sep 13, 2015 at 9:58 am

    The international community should be using it’s influence to support (where it exits) and push for the introduction of the “machinary of democratic government and the disciplines and traditions which go with it”.

    I seem to recall they tried that in Egypt, but then needed the army to restore order and effective government!
    Report abuse

  • That is, Saudi Arabia refuses to accept Muslim refugees on its territory but suggests the construction of 200 mosques in Germany, and perhaps the building of more mosques in Europe later on. If I were a cynic, I would say that what Saudi Arabia intends to do is to colonize Europe with Muslim settlers. The UNO requires Europe to comply with its Charter by accepting the refugees, why not do the same with Saudi Arabia and the Gulf Emirates? I think it’s time to tell the Saudis that they are just a bunch of hypocrites.
    Report abuse

  • Marktony
    Sep 13, 2015 at 11:24 am

    I take your point, but it’s quite a stretch to say they have restored order and effective government.

    Very much so. Perhaps I should have said slowed or stopped the degeneration!
    It is probably too much to expect interfering foreign politicians to take responsibility for the chaos they create, or to learn from their mistakes!

    It is indeed, much easier and quicker, to make a disruptive mess, than to tidy it up and restore stability!

    Ideological wish-thinking, and real outcomes are usually a very large distance apart!

    What is very obvious, is that despite the shortcomings of their governments, the vast majority of the native populations were better off before the civil wars were started!
    Report abuse

  • Odalrich
    Sep 13, 2015 at 10:48 am

    That is, Saudi Arabia refuses to accept Muslim refugees on its territory but suggests the construction of 200 mosques in Germany, and perhaps the building of more mosques in Europe later on. If I were a cynic, I would say that what Saudi Arabia intends to do is to colonize Europe with Muslim settlers.

    I think that for any refugees fleeing the abuses of Wahabi / Sunni jihad, Saudi Arabia is the last place they would consider going to!
    Report abuse

  • In medieval times from 700 to around 1200 and beyond, if the Ottoman empire is taken into account, the various dynasties in the Muslim world served as high-functioning central governments, disrupted by the usual series of violent power struggles, and embedded in civilizations far in advance of Europe. With the development of superior, scientific, technological, military and commercial civilizations in Europe combined with corresponding declines in the Arab world of the Middle east and North Africa (including conquered territories within Europe), the latter became a third-world backwater whose people became blighted with poverty, ignorance and the oppression of oligarchy at home and colonial exploitation from abroad.

    Skipping a few centuries, fast forward to the end of WWI, around 1920. It was then that the British and French drew the artificial borders of the ersatz “nations” of Syria, Iraq, Lebanon and other “countries” in the region in order to divvy up proprietay areas of colonial “influence;” i.e. exploitation of natural, economic and geopolitical resources. It’s naive to blame the U.S., a late actor to arrive on the scene in the mid 1950s, for “everything” that’s gone south in the region.

    Historical evidence suggests that Alan places too much blame on western “foreign powers,” for current conflicts and dysfunction. From its dynamic preeminence off-and-running in the 7th and 8th centuries under the unifying power of Islam, the Arab world has slipped back into its insular tribal roots, fragmenting into an ethnic-sectarian checkerboard of internecine political conflict and warfare. There is much more to the current eruptions than regime change and the search for legitimate government responsive to public needs. Peoples in the region are setting about the task of nation building, drawing sensible boundaries for those seeking national identity based on a common ethnic-sectarian heritage. The west can help in the negotiating process, intervening with military force as a last resort, or preferably enforcing agreements with international peace-keeping forces. The west should offer humanitarian aid to the hundreds of thousands or millions displaced in refugee camps or asylum countries located in the region for the duration. These people must understand that they must live in their own countries. Attempting to solve the crisis piecemeal by inviting refugees to settle permanently in Europe or the U.S. after each new outbreak of violence, will only end in ultimate disaster for everyone affected.
    Report abuse

  • The west can help in the negotiating process, intervening with
    military force as a last resort

    So why don’t they ?

    Syria's rationale for rejecting the Qatar proposal was said to be "to protect the interests of [its] Russian ally,

    Report abuse

  • We’re starting to get bogged down in geopolitical punditry that can go nowhere because no one knows who the good guys are and who the bad guys are. We all know how to say “Shia” and “Sunni” and and try our luck at picking out which countries are rooting with shifting allegiances for one side or the other. The war itself is like the blur of a dog fight in an animated cartoon.

    As for the “refugee crisis” and its implications, I’ve stated my views.
    Report abuse

  • This site requires fact and reason. Lets have some.

    Population 80.62 million (2013)

    Projected population here.
    (Falling)

    Germany may be Europe’s economic growth engine, but there’s one thing that the country is failing to produce in big numbers: Germans.

    Turkish people in Germany (Muslims) are in the region of 2.5 million.

    80,000 or even 100,000 seems to me a drop in the ocean compared to the numbers above. Germany’s need for new blood is obvious as was the UKs, who made half hearted attempts to stop immigration, immigration they desperately needed but would not admit to the native population. (Hence half hearted attempt) Germany’s dilemma is the same.
    Report abuse

  • And lets just remind ourselves of what exactly these people are running from. The years and years it will take for their country to be reassembled while we expect them to live in camps, in suspended animation, while we discuss what to do with them.

    RD’s question was about a comment that came out of Saudi Arabia. He used the words “German generosity”. I think that should be changed to humanity (if we take nothing from my two previous posts) and for the rest of us, a little humility.
    Report abuse

  • We westerners have humanitarian duties to support those who wind up on the short end of the stick in internecine wars. Europeans must look beyond a desperate myopic pseudo- solution of resettling 300,00 Syrians et. al. in her borders today and start to calculate what these people multiplying naturally -and with each new crisis- will do to European culture over 10, 20, 40, 80 years. Panic humanitarianism should give way to foreseeing the day when future media punditry will say,…”any candidate who loses the Muslim vote is beaten!”
    Report abuse

  • Olgun. This is what Melvin is relating.

    what these people multiplying naturally -and with each new crisis- will do to European culture over 10, 20, 40, 80 years.

    It’s a common internet meme. Muslims breed like rabbits and in a few years, they will out number us in Europe and take over the countries, one by one. Breed little democratic voters.
    Report abuse

  • Thank you David. I get that on a daily basis from Greek Cypriots. We even eat their babies apparently.

    German, British, Spanish (etc) culture turns to european culture and gets threatened. Perceived unity where there is none. If the EU takes in Turkey tomorrow, all of a sudden that becomes the new frontier. Europeans rushing to piss on trees to mark their territory.
    Report abuse

  • There’s no need to be cynical to reach that conclusion Alan; I think it’s true to say that all religions tend to produce idealogues who want to colonies the entire world; that includes Fascism and Communism of course.
    Report abuse

  • As an American I’m content-often pleased- to live in a high-immigration country. In California Latinos have surpassed whites to become the official majority. By 2050 Latinos, Blacks and Asians will represent the majority population in the entire United States. We use an oxymoron term to describe the shift: majority-minority (or) minority-majority. Everyone must understand that discussing population numbers in no way implies antipathy to any human being based on race, ethnicity, ancestry religion, national origin, or any other accident of birth. Unfortunately the race card or its nasty equivalent will always be played in the immigration debate justifiably to marginalize racist anti-immigrant forces, while inadvertently silencing serious concerns about demographic issues.

    The urgent empathy evoked by migrant suffering has been folded into the myopic illusion that the influx of 300,000 to 400,000 refugees may be perceived as a one-off event due principally to the civil war in Syria. After befuddled delays by European nations traditionally opposed to immigration from non-EU countries, leaders have cleared their throats (notably Germany) and done an about-face. Europeans seem relieved that their progressive humanitarianism backed “legally” by generous asylum policies will take care of this disturbing yet limited unpleasantness.

    I argued in my first comment that the flood of migrants may actually signal a demographic shift of young growing populations from Africa, the Arab Middle East, and Central Asia (along with continuing immigration from India, Pakistan and China et. al.) to displace the aging and declining ethnic populations of Europe. The civil war in Syria is just a place marker for the endless series of crises that will swell the flood of endless migration from the poor, filthy, starving nations of the European hinterland into the redemptive residency of prosperous, peaceful European welfare states.

    Europeans like people everywhere think of the demographic-ethnic “realities” they grew up with as immutable and speak proudly of their traditional identity. In Europe, the foundations of that identity have quivered. Over the coming decades the changes that can’t happen here will happen. After all, it is mathematical.
    Report abuse

  • 49
    archsceptic says:

    What’s not to like about declining birth rates? The rate at which the human race is growing in numbers is unsustainable. Future, catastrophic wars fought over a ever dwindling amount of natural resources are inevitable at this rate. Naturally enough, people in the developing world are looking at the lifestyles of people in the first world and deciding they would like that lifestyle too. This is going to be impossible to manage with current population growth.

    It is critical at this time, during this technological enlightenment that we are now living through, that civilization survives long enough to develop the technologies required to negate the need, and dependency, forever on natural resources. Only then can we entertain the idea of massive and indefinite population growth.

    There are always the same questions perpetually asked about the space sciences on this topic. Should we go into space? Can we justify the expense? Is it morally right to spend $300m on a space probe when children are starving in the world? The fact of the matter is, we already are in space – there is never any chance of us not being in space. We are in space aboard an organic spacecraft we call planet Earth. This ‘spacecraft’ has a finite amount of resources that are being depleted to exhaustion.

    It’s tragic yet true that we would probably be, by now, out amongst the stars already if so much human time had not been squandered in churches, mosques and the like, worshipping a god that isn’t there. Who, in all likelihood would not be vain enough to need or want worshipping anyway. If only a fraction of that cumulative time had been spent by the masses reading something like “Asimov’s new guide to science” instead of medieval,
    outmoded texts, we would be living in a world of true magic and wonder, full of miracles of science with no need or want for anything.

    Isaac Asimov: How People Can Save The Earth for Humans.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQfYKbKdlBM
    Report abuse

  • archskeptic: What’s not to like about declining birth rates? The rate at which the human race is growing in numbers is unsustainable.

    I’m with you, brother. I’m addressing what’s going on, not what I’d like to see going on. When the nations of the world are forced to stabilize then reduce population growth, economies must suffer dysfunctions in order to cope with the challenges of aging workforces, lopsided dependency ratios -smaller cohorts of younger people supporting larger cohorts of older people. There is no alternative except to let populations grow infinitely into extinction.
    Report abuse

  • “Workers have no country”. Karl Marx, Communist Manifesto. They go wherever they have to in order to survive. From Germany’s point of view the influx of desperate people willing to undercut the local workers in the wages dept, is likely to provide a sudden source of cheap labour for the German capitalists, – as long as they can be profitably employed ! Profit is, of course, the driving force of capitalism. As to where the newcomers will stay, the German ingenuity for building mass labour camps is a matter of history. Perhaps providing something of a counterweight against the cheap labour of China and India ?

    Maybe there’s some profit to be made in building mosques, even if the punters aren’t interested. Turn them into beer cellars in the truly Germanic tradition ?
    Report abuse

  • Mr DArcy
    Sep 14, 2015 at 4:26 pm

    From Germany’s point of view the influx of desperate people willing to undercut the local workers in the wages dept, is likely to provide a sudden source of cheap labour for the German capitalists,

    Germany has been importing cheap seasonal labour from Yugoslavia and Greece etc. for decades!

    In essence, labour migrants into highly skilled occupations are generally admitted on a permanent track (even though virtually all get initially a temporary but renewable permit), whereas labour migrants into lesser-skilled occupations are generally only admitted for a clearly limited stay (temporary track), with the exception of those from high-income OECD countries.
    http://www.baltic-sea-network.net/fileadmin/pdf/Laender/OECD-LabourMigrationGermany.pdf
    Report abuse

  • Mr DArcy: From Germany’s point of view the influx of desperate people willing to undercut the local workers in the wages dept, is likely to provide a sudden source of cheap labour for the German capitalists, – as long as they can be profitably employed ! Profit is, of course, the driving force of capitalism. As to where the newcomers will stay, the German ingenuity for building mass labour camps is a matter of history. Perhaps providing something of a counterweight against the cheap labour of China and India ?

    Dreadful ideology aside, there is some truth here. The great dilemma for the developed countries of western and northern Europe is balancing the cost of supporting refugees against the benefits of putting them to work profitably. Welfare state budgets have already been strained doling payouts to citizens during the difficult times of the Great Recession since 2008. Governments have been forced to cut back on entitlements and pensions, while young people have struggled with higher unemployment. Britain, France, Germany and other western nations have had to tread carefully around the fiscal consequences of taking in refugees for settlement because they simply cannot afford to support thousands of unexpected foreign “guests” in idleness. The preeminent success of the German economy combined with a genius for productive human resource management likely suggests the Germans have a plan for putting the refugees to work as soon as possible. All European host nations must also hedge their costly investments in refugee resettlement against a future filled with ghettos and civil strife. No one can foresee how well the Syrians, conditioned with Muslim resentment toward the infidel west, will assimilate or how much host populations will accommodate them.
    Report abuse

  • Alan4discussion
    Sep 12, 2015 at 3:32 pm

    If Europe really wanted to fix the problem, they could reverse the stupid policies of overt and clandestine “regime change”, join the Russians in supporting and arming the Assad government and the Syrian army, so they can impose martial law, put down various rebellions, and restore law and order.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34252810
    Russia’s recent movements near Syria’s city of Latakia suggest that Moscow plans to establish a “forward air operating base” there, the US has said.

    Russia says military equipment is being sent to Syria to help the government combat the so-called Islamic State.

    While Russia has backed the Syrian government and provided it with arms, the US wants to see President Assad removed.

    The war between President Assad’s regime and various rebel groups has so far killed at least 240,000 people and displaced millions.

    So the suffering and refugee crisis continues, while politicians play at funding and arming rebellions, to try to achieve “regime changes” to boost their power-blocks, alliances, religions, and ideologies!

    The causes need to be looked at. Putting sticking plasters on the refugee crisis is not the answer!

    If everyone is fighting against Islamic state, there should be no conflict in cooperating with the Russians.

    If dishonest hidden agendas are also operating and being promoted, there will be problems and further suffering!
    Report abuse

  • Further news is coming in!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34256389

    Russian President Vladimir Putin has pledged continued military support for Syria’s Bashar al-Assad despite growing concerns over Moscow’s role in the war.

    Mr Putin urged other countries to join Russia in sending “military-technical assistance”.

    President Putin said on Tuesday: “We support the government of Syria… in countering the terrorist aggression.

    *”We provide and will continue to provide it with the necessary military technical assistance. And we urge other countries to join us.”
    *He said the influx refugees to Europe would have been “even bigger” without Russian support for Syria’s government.**

    Which is probably the best option available now in the interests of the Syrian people, although avoiding starting a stupid civil war in the first place would have been a better option.

    The US and its Western allies oppose President Assad, and say that backing him risks prolonging the conflict.

    It certainly does – if they keep arming and supporting rebel groups, and with the wishful propaganda claims that bringing down Assad will benefit the Syrians in any way!
    That claim looks like straightforward psychological projection of their own reckless mischief-making, and denial of their responsibilities for generating the humanitarian crisis!
    Of course historically, military adventurers, clandestine agencies, arms salesmen, along with associated political and religious ideologists, never did care about the human suffering they cause!
    Report abuse

  • JimJFox
    Sep 15, 2015 at 10:57 am

    Yes- the West is at fault for every evil in the world…
    except that done by the Jews!

    Nope! The academic study of historical records makes it clear who is responsible for what – and the actual evidence has no resemblance to Hollywood or Faux News versions, sold to the population in the USA!

    You sound EXACTlY like an Islamic terrorist.

    Really?? You seem to have got it backwards! Perhaps you should take off the blinkers!
    I just suggested international cooperation in defeating the Saudi-sponsored ISIS terrorists and restoring law and order in Syria, so the refugees can return home to live in peace, while Stafford Gordon quoted text-book history.

    There are links on this thread which make matters clear for those who bother to read them.
    Report abuse

  • 60
    inkthink says:

    I wonder if the Saudi “help” is more a help to spread Islam. Bomb the potential missionairs out of the most tolerant country in that part of world and make them do the Saudi wish come true, more islam in Europ. I hope Germany can stop this gift or do something better with it.
    Report abuse

  • I don’t think I have a “dreadful ideology” as stated by Melvin, but the fact is that the British government actively encouraged immigration into Britain in the 50s and 60s, sourcing the new labour force from places where the Brits had had an empire like the Caribbean, India and Pakistan. No-one complains when rich immigrants arrive, like Madonna, Mittal or Abramovich, it’s always the poor ones who are “taking our jobs”, “getting our housing”, etc. Do the Americans complain every time Carlos Slim arrives from Mexico ? No he’s rich, indeed among the 80 odd people who own the same amount of wealth as half the world’s population. He could probably pay for the 200 mosques out of his petty cash every week. Indeed where would the Californian agricultural industry be without the ready supply of illegal immigrants from Mexico ? As for all the other jobs those people do, I can think of gardeners, cleaners, car washers and a multitude of other occupations that support the largely comfortable (materially) Californian lifestyle.

    Whilst “workers have no country”, the capitalists are the most unpatriotic, as they have to be, sourcing the cheapest places for industry to try to cut out the competition by using cheaper labour.
    Report abuse

  • 63
    voiceofarabi says:

    Hi Alan4Discussion,

    A while ago, I wanted to stay away from posting on this website, as I was the odd voice, and was attacked by many, who mean well, but have surface knowledge of topics…

    I am reassured by posts like yours that is closer to reality, and away from the propaganda dished out by mainstream western media.. Have the European people learnt nothing from the threat of propaganda as was demonstrated by the propaganda minister in Nazi Germany??

    The Americans (and I don’t mean the American people, but the American administrations) have learnt a lot from the propaganda minister of Nazi Germany, and they have been using the same tactics since the 50’s.

    If anyone claims to be an open minded atheist here… they should ensure they listen to both sides of the story, so they can make a correct sensible judgement. Watch tv like Russia Today, PressTV, China TV, as well as BBC, Fox News, Sky News etc.. and use your mind, as you think it is the most important tool you have, which also lead you to believe there is no god.

    Finally, in summary, the reason there is so many immigrants, and so much bloodshed is very simple… It is regime change enforced by USA, and supported by European countries that wants to achieve a single leader for the whole planet. This would have been a great system if (a-power did not corrupt.. and b- the USA was force for good..) but if you go to USA history for the last 100 years, you will see it is bloodier than Great Britain in its blood thirsty days. I still recall how many people got killed by Great Britain in Kenya on my birthday..
    Report abuse

  • 64
    voiceofarabi says:

    Hi Stafford Gordon,

    I live in this part of the world… and I am sad to confirm that Alan4Discussion is 100% correct in saying that people fleeing from ISIS, would never go to Saudi as it is exactly the same minus the killing by knifes… In Saudi, they use swards on Friday’s in public places to execute men… but lucky women, only get stoned (using an earth mover)… if this was not so sad, it would be a sketch by the Monty pythons.
    Report abuse

  • 65
    voiceofarabi says:

    Hi Melvin,

    I am sure you mean well, but you are either low on knowledge or paid to help the propaganda machine…

    It is not a Shia’a vrs Sunni fight….

    There are not Shia’as in Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Nigeria, Sudan, etc etc….

    It is a regime change operation.. and if you bother yourself to go read about the last 100 years, you will see that’s super powers have been doing this very often…

    Wake up and smell the humos.
    Report abuse

  • Alan4discussion
    Sep 12, 2015 at 5:52 am

    President Barack Obama asks Congress to approve $500m (£294m) to train and equip members of the “moderate Syrian armed opposition”

    With hindsight, I see this is in keeping with the normal standard of “NATO planning” in these wars!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34278233
    A US scheme to train Syrian rebels to fight Islamic State (IS) militants has been branded a total failure after a US general admitted only four or five were still fighting.

    Congress approved $500m (£323m) to train and equip around 5,000 rebels as a key plank of US strategy against IS.

    But the first 54 graduates were routed by an al-Qaeda affiliate, Gen Lloyd Austin told lawmakers.

    Republican Senator Kelly Ayotte said the number remaining was a “joke”.

    Appearing alongside him, Christine Wormuth, Undersecretary of Defence for Policy, said around 100 more rebels were currently in training.

    She said the reason for the low numbers was the vetting process used, with the US only recruiting rebels wanting to fight IS rather than Syrian government forces.

    It is not clear what happened to all of the initial group attacked in northern Syria – some were killed, others captured, while the rest scattered.

    Gen Austin also promised “appropriate actions” if an investigation found than senior defence officials doctored intelligence to downplay IS and al-Qaeda strength in Syria.
    Report abuse

  • Alan4discussion
    Sep 12, 2015 at 3:32 pm

    If Europe really wanted to fix the problem, they could reverse the stupid policies of overt and clandestine “regime change”, join the Russians in supporting and arming the Assad government and the Syrian army, so they can impose martial law, put down various rebellions, and restore law and order.
    Then the various refugees could return to their homes in Syria and resume their earlier peaceful lives!

    I see John Kerry is starting to think along similar lines to my comment!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34294640
    President Obama would like to hold military talks with Russia on Syria, and hopes they could take place “very shortly”, his Secretary of State John Kerry has said.

    The US has been concerned about Russia’s increased military presence in Syria.

    .“We’re looking for ways in which to find a common ground,” said Mr Kerry.

    Moscow has meanwhile said that any request from Syria to send troops would be “discussed and considered”.

    Alan4discussion
    Sep 15, 2015 at 6:04 am

    If everyone is fighting against Islamic state, there should be no conflict in cooperating with the Russians.

    Report abuse

  • Alan4discussion
    Sep 15, 2015 at 6:04 am

    If everyone is fighting against Islamic state, there should be no conflict in cooperating with the Russians.

    Perhaps there is some hope that sense is starting to prevail!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34294640
    Top US and Russian defence officials have held their first talks in more than a year to discuss the Syrian conflict, the Pentagon says.

    Secretary of Defence Ashton Carter spoke with Russia’s Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu on areas where “perspectives overlap and areas of divergence”, a statement said.

    Russia said the talks proved the sides had common ground, state media said.
    Report abuse

  • “and use your mind, as you think it is the most important tool you have, which also lead you to believe there is no god.”

    These types of comments are not needed and insulting.
    Report abuse

  • Oh not again! Sick Baddddd….
    I have a friend who is a Doctor. He got a big laugh when I exclaimed, “its tough living on a planet where eighty percent of the occupants are insane”.
    Report abuse

  • alf1200
    Sep 18, 2015 at 12:59 pm

    “and use your mind, as you think it is the most important tool you have, which also lead you to believe there is no god.”

    These types of comments are not needed and insulting.

    Hi Alf!

    I must admit I did not find this comment insulting, – rather it advocated a clear thinking mind, while avoiding to knee-jerk reactions prevalent in some of the US media!
    Report abuse

  • It is not a Shia’a vrs Sunni fight….

    There are not Shia’as in Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Nigeria, Sudan, etc etc….

    A significant number of the refugees are escaping the civil war in Syria. And many of the posts above were discussing the causes and possible solutions to that civil war. I imagine most people assumed Melvin was referring to the Syrian war and the violence in the general region.

    Not sure why you refer to those countries in Africa, however it’s unlikely that there are no Shia Muslims in those countries. Perhaps you meant no significant number of Shia. You may find the following article enlightening:

    Nigeria Shias in Potiskum hit by ‘suicide attack’
    Report abuse

  • 77
    voiceofarabi says:

    Hi Marktony,

    You have a valid point, and I meant exactly that.. the Sunni vs Shia’a is not the real issue…. It is certainly what people want you to believe it is, as it is more palatable than saying… I want to change regime because they want to be independent from me, and will not do what I say.

    Apologies, as my English is rather poor, and I might not be explaining myself in clear or polite way, for that I am sorry.

    The bottom line is… Just like everyone on this site can see that there is no GOD, and the whole thing is just one big lie… what is happening in Syria is also a huge lie…

    Yes, the regime in Syria is dictatorship, and awful towards its people… But certainly 100 times better than Saudi… Why are we not saving Saudi people from their dictator ruler..?? or Bahrain, or Kuwait, or etc etc….
    Report abuse

  • 78
    voiceofarabi says:

    You can’t be a true American.. American are normally loud and impolite.. opps.. that’s stereo typing. hahaahahaha

    I did not mean it to be an accusation.. it was just the conclusion I came to….
    Report abuse

  • As you will be well aware Olgun, after WW2, as a consequence of the mass slaughter that had occured between nineteen fourteen and forty-five, all European nations were desperately dependent on migrant labour, hence the Turkish community in Germany, the Moroccans in France, the Surinamese and Moluccans in the Netherlands, the West Indians in the UK etc.

    But now, tragically, the situation is entirely different, in that there are those among the influx whose sole intent is to do the greatest harm they can.

    And to a great extent, it’s because of those that the suffereing of all the innocent, genuine refugees is being added to so terribly.

    In the twenty first century, we are engaged in an asymmetrical holy war; “Religion poisons everything.”

    But, it could go either way, the tide of events could take a turn for the best if the internet informs sufficient people about how life can be lived happily and to the full without woo; and I think that reason will indeed prevail.
    Report abuse

  • Hi Alf! I must admit I did not find this comment insulting, – rather it advocated a clear thinking mind, while avoiding to knee-jerk reactions prevalent in some of the US media!

    And what about the preceding comment:

    If anyone claims to be an open minded atheist here… they should ensure they listen to both sides of the story, so they can make a correct sensible judgement. Watch tv like Russia Today, PressTV, China TV, as well as BBC, Fox News, Sky News etc

    Best not to rely on only one news source but I don’t think BBC News belongs in the list above. Sky News? – in danger of heading in the Fox direction but a long way off as yet.

    How about Reuters, Wiki News, The Independent, CSPAN, ……., RDFRS, Christian Science Monitor, Al Jazeera?
    Report abuse

  • Marktony
    Sep 19, 2015 at 9:15 am

    Best not to rely on only one news source but I don’t think BBC News belongs in the list above.

    The obvious first discard, is those who offer their own opinions from their own agendas as “news”, rather than verbatim quotes from recognised or reputable sources.
    Report abuse

  • Marktony
    Sep 19, 2015 at 9:15 am

    Best not to rely on only one news source

    Quite often before pasting links, I bring up 3 or 4 tabs on the same story – often to find they have all taken the news from one source (eg. Reuters BBC etc.) and then put their own slant on it a few hours later.
    Report abuse

  • voiceofarabi is correct in saying that it is not a shia-sunni problem that caused the problems in North Africa. There are for all intents and purposes no shia in that region. It was a fundamentalist vs secular government problem from Morocco all the way across to Egypt.
    Report abuse

  • Put their own slant on it/their own spin on it. That from their own reporters. Reuters, short sharp sweet. No room to spin a cat.
    Report abuse

  • Put their own slant on it/their own spin on it. That from their own reporters.

    Did you see her interview Corbyn for Newsnight? I thought she did pretty good – predictable questions but not as combative as Paxman might have been and gave him time to answer.
    Report abuse

  • There now are a few more US trained rebels entering Syria.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-20/75-us-trained-rebels-enter-syria-monitoring-group-says/6790300

    Seventy-five Syrian rebels trained to fight jihadists under a beleaguered US program have crossed from Turkey into northern Syria, a US-backed rebel faction and a monitoring group said.

    “Seventy-five new fighters trained in a camp near the Turkish capital entered Aleppo province between Friday night and Saturday morning,” Rami Abdel Rahman, director of the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, said.

    Hassan Mustafa, spokesman for the US-backed Division 30 unit to which some of the rebels were deployed, confirmed the group had entered Syria.

    “Their training in Turkey lasted two months and they went directly to the front lines with Daesh. They are now in the town of Tal Rifaat,” Mr Mustafa said, using the Arabic name for the Islamic State group.

    He said he could not comment on what sort of weapons or supplies the rebels had brought with them.

    According to Mr Abdel Rahman, the group had entered in a convoy of a dozen cars with light weapons and ammunition, under air cover from the US-led coalition that has been carrying out strikes against IS in Iraq and Syria.

    US officials have also expressed fears Russia may strike Western-backed rebels fighting Syrian president Bashar al-Assad and ultimately risk a confrontation with forces fighting IS.

    Moscow has been pushing for a broader coalition of forces to take on the jihadists

    . . . . But Western powers are still aiming at removing the Assad government as an exercise in “Regime change”!
    This will prolong the fighting which the actions against the Syrian army and police, generated in the first place – thus creating the opening for ISIS, as did the chaos caused by attempts at regime-change in Iraq! !
    Report abuse

  • Alan4discussion
    Sep 20, 2015 at 9:03 am

    According to Mr Abdel Rahman, the group had entered in a convoy of a dozen cars with light weapons and ammunition, under air cover from the US-led coalition that has been carrying out strikes against IS in Iraq and Syria.

    US officials have also expressed fears Russia may strike Western-backed rebels fighting Syrian president Bashar al-Assad and ultimately risk a confrontation with forces fighting IS.

    There now are a few more US trained rebels entering Syria.

    It seems the usual levels of ineptitude continue to cause further deterioration, making identification of groups with enemy vehicles and weapons more difficult!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34368073
    A group of US-trained Syrian rebels has handed over their vehicles and ammunition to fighters linked to al-Qaeda, the US military has admitted.

    .It said one rebel unit had surrendered six pick-up trucks and ammunition to the al-Nusra Front this week – apparently to gain safe passage.

    Congress has approved $500m (£323m) to train and equip about 5,000 rebels to fight against Islamic State militants.

    But the first 54 graduates were routed by al-Nusra Front, the military said.

    Gen Lloyd Austin told US lawmakers last week that only “four or five” US-trained rebels were still fighting.

    “Unfortunately, we learned late today that the NSF (New Syrian Forces) unit now says it did in fact provide six pick-up trucks and a portion of their ammunition to a suspected al-Nusra Front (group),” Pentagon spokesman Cpt Jeff Davis said on Friday.

    Meanwhile, Col Patrick Ryder, a spokesman for US Central Command (Centcom), said this happened on 21-22 September.

    He added that the surrendered vehicles and ammunition amounted to roughly 25% of the equipment issued to the unit.

    “If accurate, the report of NSF members providing equipment to al-Nusra Front is very concerning and a violation of Syria train-and-equip programme guidelines,” Col Ryder said.

    .The unit was part of some 70 rebel fighters who participated in the second US training course.

    So the first group were routed, and the second group gave away a quarter of their equipment to the enemy!!! The US really needs to stop incompetently interfering and making matters worse in Syria!
    Report abuse

  • Stafford Gordon
    Sep 12, 2015 at 1:35 pm

    “As you sow so shall you reap.”

    Yes! Wishful thinking and incompetent interference, has caused much suffering and a refugee crisis!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34425146
    UK policy in Syria has been hampered by “wishful thinking”, says a former top military adviser in the Middle East.

    Lt Gen Sir Simon Mayall said the UK had underestimated the staying power of President Bashar al-Assad.

    In an interview with BBC Newsnight, he painted a picture of a UK being in a strategic muddle over Syria and described Russia’s intervention as “hugely significant”.

    On Iraq, he described the UK’s commitment as “frankly inadequate”.

    The general’s remarks, in his first interview since stepping down, reflect wider frustration among senior officers about the lack of a coherent strategic approach to the Middle East, and risk-aversion among political leaders in the UK as well as the United States.

    It has emerged recently that during discussions in 2012 of possible plans to hit Syrian President Bashar al-Assad’s forces, General David Richards, now Lord Richards, chief of the general staff asked rhetorically whether the prime minister was sure Britain was about to bomb the right people.

    Lt Gen Mayall says he argued at that time, “that the Assad regime would fight to the last”, but that policy makers had got caught up in the excitement of the Arab spring and hoped the Syrian leader would be swiftly overthrown.

    The Russians, he believes were, “in many ways more realistic about the staying power of Assad”.

    Russian President Vladimir Putin has argued in recent weeks that his country’s operation in Syria is designed to prevent the type of state implosion that took place in Libya after Nato’s intervention there in 2011.

    The Russians seem to bombing all terrorists in Syria to put an end to the civil war, – not just ones whose politics the US, and Europe don’t like!
    Report abuse

Leave a Reply

View our comment policy.