Islamicide: How the Mullah Mafia Is Destroying Pakistan

Feb 4, 2016

Photo credit: Akhtar Soomro/Reuters

By Maajid Nawaz

Somewhere in the world there is a Muslim-majority country in which a 15-year-old boy accidentally raised his hand to answer the wrong question at a religious sermon. The boy said yes, when he meant to say no.

His religious instructor, his mullah, had been asking, “Who among you loves their prophet?” All present raised their hands. The mullah then followed with another question: “Who among you doesn’t believe in the teachings of the Holy Prophet? Raise your hands!”

The boy thought he was answering the first question again. He stuck his right hand up in pride. Yes. Yes, I love my prophet, he thought. But to the poor boy’s horror, the mullah had asked the question in the negative. Upon realizing his mistake, which I remind you was raising his hand too quickly, the boy was told before 100 worshippers that he had committed blasphemy. He was mortified.

The boy promptly departed that day and walked home. All along the way he must have been thinking about his mistake. Had his hand exposed him as an apostate by bearing false witness against his soul? How could he ever regain his lost status as a believer?

In his utter depression, perhaps the boy recalled the passage of the Quran that describes the Day of Reckoning in which believers’ own limbs will testify against them, betraying their misdeeds.

He may even have recalled a traditional saying ascribed to the Prophet Muhammad, “Even if my own daughter Fatima stole, by God I would cut off her hand.”

In this spirit, hadn’t a member of ISIS just executed his own mother for apostasy? Whatever was on his mind, this boy, who wanted so much to be considered a true, fearful believer, decided that he must take action to fix his terrible mistake. What happened next has alternately shocked, embarrassed, infuriated, and depressed me. It has come to symbolize the collective suicide—let’s call it Islamicide—of this boy’s country.

The boy went into his father’s workshop, placed his right hand inside the grass-cutting machine, and chopped it clean off.

That’s right. He cut off his own hand in the name of the prophet. “When I raised my right hand unwittingly, I realized I had committed blasphemy and needed to atone for this,” he told the BBC. “I came back home… but found the place dark, so I took my uncle’s phone to point some light at my hand. I placed it under the machine and chopped it off in a single swirl.”


Continue reading by clicking the name of the source below.

95 comments on “Islamicide: How the Mullah Mafia Is Destroying Pakistan

  • 1
    NearlyNakedApe says:

    What a powerful, thought provoking article. And to think that the author, this brilliant and courageous man, was once referred to as “Sam Harris’ talking monkey” is just shocking.

    I’ve never doubted about the power of religious indoctrination and the things it can make people do but I still cringe whenever I read stories as horrific and sad as this one.



    Report abuse

  • yeh, it’s a tragedy, terrible tragedy

    but

    it’s anecdotal – it’s just like cherry picking anything that helps us hate Islam – it’s no different to the Muslim hating Israelis who flood Israeli news sites with their “proofs” that Islam is utterly evil. it’s statistically irrelevant – people, and especially kids, do stupid things for stupid reasons all the time – using their stupidity to score points is pretty sickening.
    “Islamacide” is a word better suited to what happens when Islamaphobia becomes institutionalised such that Islamic peoples, their lives, homes, businesses, institutions and culture are subject to endless war and murder. What Israel is doing to the Palestinians – that is Islamacide.

    How we bring backwards people and their ingrained beliefs into the modern world I do not know. I do not think that reinforcing in our own minds a black and white judgmental attitude to them all because of their pitiful situation and its consequences is the way to go.

    I’m an atheist not because i reject gods – I’m an atheist because gods play no part of my life or the lives of most of the people around me – without god.

    I’m not an atheist such that i seek to bring down everyone else’s gods or beliefs – Nietzsche and other’s have tried it and it’s obviously a very long path. Some have taken on the role of anti-theist – and that’s commendable up to a point – that point is when what is done contributes to the harm of others.

    I don’t claim it’s easy.

    pop



    Report abuse

  • Peak Oil Poet Feb 4, 2016 at 3:42 pm

    yeh, it’s a tragedy, terrible tragedy

    but

    it’s anecdotal – it’s just like cherry picking anything that helps us
    hate Islam – it’s no different to the Muslim hating Israelis who flood
    Israeli news sites with their “proofs” that Islam is utterly evil.
    it’s statistically irrelevant – people, and especially kids, do stupid
    things for stupid reasons all the time – using their stupidity to
    score points is pretty sickening.

    Certainly some of Maajid’s illustrations are anecdotal but the main point he is making with this elegy for lost civilisation is political; the power of these primitive aging male ideologues to distort humanity through fear and ignorance. Mullahs who are more powerful than the State.



    Report abuse

  • Dear Geof 21
    As much as I appreciate your humanity, first of all ,not all Palestinians are Moslems,those of whom are Moslems as believers , not just by what their passport calls them, now have been poisoned by Islamic ideology. Secondly I am amazed as to why you cose Palestinians and Israel and not islamocide of Kurds, Chechens, Bosnians, Dufares Iraqis , Syrians etc. Islam as per text is one of the most violent inhumane ideologies. Millions so called Muslims outside Arabia ( Arabian penninsula) practice what their humanity dictates them to do and attribute it to Islam yet Islamic texts are diametrically against what they do. “True” per Quran Sune and Hadith is now spreading like fire among Muslims backed by petrodollars of Arabia with mosque imams the emissaries. We can not look away and do nothing

    Bajalan ( brought up in Islamic society but never submitted to its doctrine)



    Report abuse

  • Islam evolved from Judahism, and like Islam, Judahism was a brutal cruel religion. Fortunately Judahism moderated since then as did Christianity over the coming centuries.

    Unfortunately Islam did not and is still stuck in that cruel and vile ideology.

    It seems it is more about maintaining control than anything.

    Imagine there’s no countries
    It isn’t hard to do
    Nothing to kill or die for
    And no religion too
    Imagine all the people
    Living life in peace…



    Report abuse

  • my gosh what sweeping statements, what over-simplification.

    most of all – what aggressive (brutal, violent, cruel and vile (your words)) dehumanisation

    Islam has a very long and amazingly varied history – some of it quite beautiful and inspiring. Centuries of peace, learning, growth.

    By attacking “Islam” as if it is some very easy to define and diagnose disease that can be eradicated by suitable policy you are doing nothing less horrid than what the least educated, least worldly and least open minded Muslims do.

    It is people that exhibit behaviour – and behaviour is always a consequence of the degree of stress to which a population is put.

    The history of human brutality is not a history of any particular belief system – the belief system is like the suit of clothes you wear when you go out to shoot and kill a bunch of people. It’s got nothing to do with why you shoot and kill them.

    I commend you for recognising that there is something wrong in the world – but it is not Islam (or Christianity, or Judaism or Buddhism etc).

    So what is it? What is at the core of it? How might we do something about it?

    Some people think that by removing people’s clothing and replacing it with some other clothing all that is wrong with the world can be healed.

    really?

    pop

    Edited by moderator to bring within Terms of Use. Please don’t make personal or insulting remarks about other users. See Section 14 of the Terms, Conditions & Privacy document linked to at the foot of each page.



    Report abuse

  • The problem is indeed the power of the shamans to continuously incite folk in their own personal favour. There is nothing spookey powerful in the texts. They are a little more focused to their nation building purpose than the committee edited ragbag of the Bible, but something all the easier to put into a historical metaphorical mode as a lucky few get to do.

    It is exactly the Mullah Mafia, the patriarchal psychopath bullies that so block the slide back into a comparative innocuousness. Most where real rights and education for women have been fought for, say by the Kurds, Iranian and Turkish middle classes, etc. these bullies have less traction. Left more in peace folk get back to their lives and families. The psychopath bullies job is to fight this, form a wound through daily irritation and keep it fresh…

    Targeting “Islam” per se is entirely to miss a tractable, human, guilty party.



    Report abuse

  • Peak Oil Poet Feb 5, 2016 at 2:23 pm

    my gosh what sweeping statements, what over-simplification………..
    Islam has a very long and amazingly varied history – some of it quite
    beautiful and inspiring. Centuries of peace, learning, growth.

    This sounds like the old apologia for the British Empire – how it brought peace and democracy to the ‘fuzzy wuzzies’ (to quote Corporal Jones!).

    Let’s be clear: the advance of Islam was a project of Arab imperialism that exploited the decline of the Roman Empire in the west and the Persian Empire to the east by the time of the 7th century. The ‘peace’ of Islam was more often than not the peace of occupation and cultural annihalation. Why else do we have communities of ethnic Hindus (viz. Pakistanis) who speak an Arabic-influenced language and worship a pagan Arab god based on ‘revealed’ text attributed to an Arab ‘prophet’.



    Report abuse

  • It seems the traditionalists have been making threats in Scotland!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-35484187

    Police are investigating allegations that prominent Muslims at Scotland’s largest mosque have been threatened amid an ongoing internal dispute.

    Seven members of Glasgow Central Mosque executive committee resigned, saying their efforts to make reforms had been opposed by traditionalists.

    They also said they and their families were subjected to threats and abuse.

    The statement said: “A number of people have been undermining day-to-day operations, meetings and even sabotaging mosque property, alongside threatening physical harm to executive members including their wives and children.

    “The following people are protesting against the backwardness displayed by a minority of people by resigning from the executive committee.”

    Commenting on the resignations, Glasgow-based lawyer Aamer Anwar said: “It is a real tragedy that those who bravely led the calls for equality and diversity at Scotland’s largest mosque have resigned.

    “The fact that they did so because of alleged threats of violence towards their families is abhorrent and criminal.”

    He said the committee had “the decency and courage to expose corruption, misogyny and racism” but certain people at the mosque had “tried to destroy them”.



    Report abuse

  • “Why else do we have communities of ethnic Hindus (viz. Pakistanis) who speak an Arabic-influenced language and worship a pagan Arab god based on ‘revealed’ text attributed to an Arab ‘prophet’”

    ah, maybe because, an ethnic group (Indus) was overtaken and subjugated by another ethnic group to form the lowest echelon of a nasty caste system that allowed them to be thoroughly dehumanized

    Then, during partition, that same group of people were expelled from their heritage lands to the peripheries – the poorest regions of the land they once owned

    pop



    Report abuse

  • Peak Oil Poet
    Feb 5, 2016 at 2:23 pm

    Islam has a very long and amazingly varied history – some of it quite beautiful and inspiring. Centuries of peace, learning, growth.

    Would that be “peace” under the terms of caliphates’, Sharia Law, slavery and jihad?

    http://www.australianislamistmonitor.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3235:-islams-european-slave-trade-by-muslim-turks-eg-ottoman-and-tartars-part-g-in-islams-genocidal-slavery

    The conquest of Asia Minor occurred over 4 centuries. It took the Turks about 2 centuries to conquer the Balkans (today’s Slovenia, Serbia, Croatia, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, Greece, European part of Turkey, Bosnia-Herzegovina) with incalculable ruin of material goods, massacre, enslavement, exile, destruction of farming, destruction of trade, depopulation, reduced productivity, and destruction of the normal exchange of knowledge around the Mediterranean and through Christian and Jewish societies, plus colonisation by Muslims—as also occurred in the conquest of Asia Minor. The states of Byzantium, Bulgaria, Serbia…had reached a high level of economic and cultural development before the Muslim attacks. The conquest of the Balkan peoples was disastrous and for centuries trammelled their normal economic and social development (Angelov p 463) Yet it’s described as a blessing for the population (they had the chance to become Muslim) and we are fed lies of ‘peace’ and economic unity.



    Report abuse

  • Peak Oil Poet Feb 5, 2016 at 3:25 pm

    “Why else do we have communities of ethnic Hindus (viz. Pakistanis)
    who speak an Arabic-influenced language and worship a pagan Arab god
    based on ‘revealed’ text attributed to an Arab ‘prophet’”

    ah, maybe because, an ethnic group (Indus) was overtaken and
    subjugated by another ethnic group to form the lowest echelon of a
    nasty caste system that allowed them to be thoroughly dehumanized…

    No, they were invaded, subjugated and thus forcibly converted to Islam in a campaign of expansionism that stretched at one point from southern Spain in the west to the borders of China in the east.

    I have to say your evasiveness and repeated attempts here to deflect scrutiny of Islam’s adverse influence is beginning to sound like special pleading.



    Report abuse

  • “evasiveness” “repeated attempts here to deflect scrutiny of Islam’s adverse influence”

    “special pleading”

    no, in my opinion, just exposing an undercurrent of the same old thing

    very loaded words

    i’m not pleading – (seems somewhat insulting Mod – how come you let such a subtle turn of phrase through but jump on anything honestly open?)

    I have been reading this site for years. I was on here before. I don’t see a site dedicated to knowledge and science and the education of theists/ex-theists towards knowledge.

    I see the same thing i see in people like Trump

    Only cloaked in shiftier garb

    maybe you should try getting your history from the lions instead of the lion hunters

    pop



    Report abuse

  • Peak Oil Poet
    Feb 5, 2016 at 10:30 pm

    “special pleading”

    no, in my opinion, just exposing an undercurrent of the same old thing
    very loaded words

    I think that comment might come under “psychological projection”!

    i’m not pleading – (seems somewhat insulting Mod – how come you let such a subtle turn of phrase through but jump on anything honestly open?)

    Technical terminology!

    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special_pleading

    I have been reading this site for years. I was on here before. I don’t see a site dedicated to knowledge and science and the education of theists/ex-theists towards knowledge.

    If you are not learning science and history here, you are either looking at the wrong discussions or wearing blinkers!
    Lots of ex-theists bring cultural, fanciful, theistic versions of history with them, which they have previously accepted and never critically examined.



    Report abuse

  • PoP’s invocation the Golden Age of Islam entirely makes the point of this perceptive piece (rather than confound it). Great cultural richness was preserved and cultivated at this time (10th to 13th centuries). Broad accommodations of of beliefs became possible in the Fatimid Caliphates. Beautiful atheist poetry and science, healthcare, universities…

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age

    Reason flourished more here than in the Dark Ages of Christianity.

    There is no spooky power in texts. It is the Shamans, the gate keepers, who control what is understood. It was entirely they who shut down this Golden Age declaring that all that can be known is now known, disbanding education, reasserting control and mirroring that earlier Christian “Closing of the Western Mind”.

    (Incidentally, James Hannam’s hatchet job on this excellent book contains the seeds its own refutation in its closing paragraphs. For an intellectual culture to thrive it must have a breadth of take-up and a disputatious dynamic. The Islamic Golden Age may well have been fueled by Christian (Greek etc.) scholars, but they went where the ideas could flourish until long after its initial seeding. THIS is the point, finding a nurturing and substantial culture.)



    Report abuse

  • so is that what you are Alan? Ex-theist?

    bit of a burden

    or are you just making a shotgun approach accusation?

    very hard to tell – i don’t proselytize so i don’t necessarily grasp other’s doing it unless it’s very blatant

    i always come back to the underlying ideas in the first commandment (and not the way Christians perceive it)

    there is no other truth but the whole truth – and what puny being on this planet has any inkling as to what the whole truth is?

    not me and not you that’s for sure – or do you think you have a grasp of it?

    pop



    Report abuse

  • Peak Oil Poet
    Feb 6, 2016 at 6:29 pm

    so is that what you are Alan? Ex-theist?

    I suppose so but I have been an atheist since my teens when I grew out of childish beliefs and developed rational thinking. I had always been brought up with science anyway from even earlier as my father was a scientist and an atheist.

    My reference to “ex-theists” was about my experience with various people in debates.

    there is no other truth but the whole truth – and what puny being on this planet has any inkling as to what the whole truth is?

    I don’t go much for “truths”, but do place confidence in scientific conclusions according to the strength of the evidence and the quality of the thought processes.

    I also look to build the big-picture, as far as possible.

    It is simply wishful thinking to pretend all views are equal, or no confidence in anything is valid.



    Report abuse

  • “or no confidence in anything is valid”

    interesting

    you need confidence in things eh?

    so, when a theist gives up hir belief they do little less than shift the need to believe to something else

    i think that’s called grasping at straws?

    science is not about belief (and incidentally, neither is Judaism or Islam, or for that matter anything but Christianity)

    that’s pretty intrinsic

    standing on a pile of sculls with a blaster in each hand firing off at anything that looks scary while screaming “i believe in science” is a good cover pic for a sci-fi book (from the 50’s)

    but it aint science

    pop



    Report abuse

  • Peak Oil Poet Feb 6, 2016 at 6:29 pm

    there is no other truth but the whole truth – and what puny being on
    this planet has any inkling as to what the whole truth is?

    Are we talking about Life The Universe and Everything here or is it permissible to speak of individual cases where facts have been established? Why do you say ‘there is no other truth’ in this sweeping generalisation when there are both scientific and multiply confirmed accounts? You deny what is quite easily demonstrable.

    Peak Oil Poet Feb 6, 2016 at 7:45 pm “or no confidence in anything is
    valid” interesting you need confidence in things eh?

    In accordance with evidence; repeatable experimentally; as a theory allowing accurate prediction; susceptible to disproof by experiment. It’s a scientific-method thing…, the development of scientific ‘knowledge’ is one of increasing probability, not certainty. Science looks at probabilities and defines the ‘confidence levels’ of data by which we arrive at our conclusions. By the same principle, in everyday life people generally estimate well when crossing a familiar road. If taken from, say, a village in Samaria and suddenly put by a busy motorway a person could likely come to grief through lack of data. Generally, the larger the data-set the more robust the conclusions.

    so, when a theist gives up hir belief they do little less than shift
    the need to believe to something else i think that’s called grasping
    at straws?

    No, it’s called ‘a straw-man argument’
    You misconstrue apostasy here as a search for beliefs when clearly it only abandons them.

    The legitimate search for beliefs arrived at by Reason and Science, and thus meeting good criteria, continues to be the reason our species is so appallingly successful, when one takes into account the chasm between power and accountability (or, indeed intelligence) which was our original subject. It is a fantastically successful way of understanding the world but its fruits are controlled in many places by amoral bigots with one book.

    science is not about belief (and incidentally, neither is Judaism or
    Islam, or for that matter anything but Christianity) that’s pretty
    intrinsic

    Sorry, don’t understand this.

    standing on a pile of sculls with a blaster in each hand firing off at
    anything that looks scary while screaming “i believe in science” is a
    good cover pic for a sci-fi book (from the 50’s) but it aint science

    No, that’s engineering. I like the image. Nearest author I can think of is E.E. ‘Doc’ Smith who really was a scientist (and knew Heinlein and Asimov) and wrote the incredible Lensman series, though he was old school paradigm and never accepted Einstein (which allowed his heroes to travel the galaxy at trans-photonic speeds).



    Report abuse

  • Peak Oil Poet
    Feb 6, 2016 at 7:45 pm

    “or no confidence in anything is valid”

    interesting you need confidence in things eh?

    Yep! When making competent decisions on engineering, medicines, finance, relationships, or life, justifiable confidence in evidence, deductions, and calculations, is necessary if major foul-ups are to be avoided.

    When I cross abridge, I need confidence it has been competently built!
    When I travel in an aeroplane, I need confidence, it has been competently built and serviced.
    When I switch on an electrical device, I need confidence it will not blow-up, catch fire, or electrocute me.

    so, when a theist gives up hir belief they do little less than shift the need to believe to something else

    Theist beliefs are based on “faith”.
    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/faith
    faithstrong or unshakeable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence

    (Theology) a conviction of the truth of certain doctrines of religion, esp when this is not based on reason

    i think that’s called grasping at straws?

    I don’t think you thought it through at all!
    You just produced a knee-jerk denial and a strawman diversion!

    science is not about belief

    Correct! It is about well tested evidence explaining the workings of the real world!

    (and incidentally, neither is Judaism or Islam, or for that matter anything but Christianity)

    Wrong!
    These are all based on “faith” – which has NOTHING to do with scientific methodology or evidence based conclusions. The technologies of the world run on science, which is proved to work every time we successfully use them – millions of times a day.
    Let me know when you or anyone else, can make reliably working technology by sitting praying!

    That’s pretty intrinsic

    It may be intrinsic to confused circular thinking and self deception, but that is a psychological issue.



    Report abuse

  • 23
    Pinball1970 says:

    Peak oil poet

    “there is no other truth but the whole truth – and what puny being on this planet has any inkling as to what the whole truth is?”

    We don’t know everything yet but what we have found so far about life on earth, the universe and how the universe works, has been discovered in spite of Genesis or anything in the Koran.

    Man formed from a clot, sun sets in a puddle, not mixing different, cloths or salt and fresh water, global flood, hares chewing the cud, jinn living in rocks trees, mental illness caused by demons, flat earth, geocentric universe all revelation and all wrong.



    Report abuse

  • Alan –

    “Wrong!
    These are all based on “faith” – which has NOTHING to do with scientific methodology…”

    why are you arguing science at me? I’m a scientist (post grad and multiple science majors) – who are you trying to convince? Yourself?

    and i’m not wrong – ONLY Christianity is based on “faith” (actually “belief”, not faith) – Islam is based on obedience, Judaism is based on something akin to negotiation (except for those sects decedent from the Baal Shem Tov which are basically Judaic version of Christianity).

    Interesting how Christians and ex-Christians and even atheists who grew up in Christian nations seem to piant all other religions in terms of Christian ideas.

    Pinball –

    “We don’t know everything yet”

    we will never know – can never know – everything – that’s kindof a fundamental of physics

    and frankly, the very idea that we might be able to know everything should be kindof terrifying

    and, the idea that we might be able to know everything is quite a Christian idea – it’s like revelation – through some process we gain knowledge of everything – weird too when you think about it – both the seeking to know everything and the kidding ourselves that we think we can know everything are very intrinsic principles in biblical study (think serpents on the one hand and “accepting Jesus” on the other). And, as is true of most Christians, it completely misconstrues the principles of the first commandments.

    back to Alan

    your confidence in flying in a plane or crossing a bridge etc

    well, here’s the thing – i did the engineering studies to understand how a bridge stands up and how a plane stays in the air and how circuits work – and to quite a senior level of math

    but that i cross a bridge or fly in a plane has nothing to do with any of those studies – nothing at all

    i cross a bridge because i can see or not if it is rickety or solid – and i bet any Christian would cross a bridge based on the same preceptions

    i fly in planes not because of my faith in science but only because of my faith in the fact airplanes don’t regularly fall out of the sky

    you do these things based on faith or habit – and nothing at all to do with science and math else you’d be out there measuring the bridge or plane and doing thorough calculations before you went anywhere near them

    stop arguing science with me – it’s a pointless direction – a waste of effort and a constant “strawman”

    pop



    Report abuse

  • I am truly surprised at how things exaggerated; the writer wanted to implies that this is the teaching of Islam. Unfortunately, this is very weak and really what an imagination of assuming what a person might said in his-self, just for the purpose of forming deluding and misleading and painting the religion of dark color.

    Rather than promoting the negative acts of some individuals based on their wants and wish, have the writer highlight the true teaching of Islam, which is beyond the doubt can’t be reached in any other religion nor a thought defenders like atheists in matter of peaceful teachings and true preserving the right of human-being. If the writer is truthful on his intention and approach, he would highlight the countless virtuous teachings and Sharia of Islam rather than talking from the source of ignorance.

    Not the writer nor Richard Dawkins have a proper knowledge of Islam; it is just searching and filtering the dust bin instead of desk.

    Part of any subject or one side of it will never give nor will be sufficient to give the right explanation, especially out of context that is always used by these guys.

    Saif



    Report abuse

  • Saif Al Mazrooei
    Feb 8, 2016 at 3:50 am

    Rather than promoting the negative acts of some individuals based on their wants and wish, have the writer highlight the true teaching of Islam,

    Ah! The classic “No True Scotsman fallacy”! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman – which denies and excludes, all those inconvenient historical negative features which are an embarrassment to ethical individuals!

    which is beyond the doubt can’t be reached in any other religion nor a thought defenders like atheists in matter of peaceful teachings and true preserving the right of human-being.

    To the strongly indoctrinated faithful, looking through the rosy blinkers of faith, their personal beliefs are “superior” to all the competing religions and philosophies which they can’t understand.



    Report abuse

  • Peak Oil Poet
    Feb 7, 2016 at 6:10 pm

    science is not about belief (and incidentally, neither is Judaism or
    Islam, or for that matter anything but Christianity)

    Alan – “Wrong!
    These are all based on “faith” – which has NOTHING to do with scientific methodology…”

    why are you arguing science at me? I’m a scientist (post grad and multiple science majors) – who are you trying to convince? Yourself?

    It seems you still have not learned the difference between confidence in multiply confirmed evidence-based science, and “faith”, despite these studies.

    and i’m not wrong – ONLY Christianity is based on “faith” (actually “belief”, not faith) – Islam is based on obedience, Judaism is based on something akin to negotiation (except for those sects decedent from the Baal Shem Tov which are basically Judaic version of Christianity).

    All religions based on claims in ancient mythological writings, which cannot be historically confirmed, are based on “faith”. Asserted denial, is evidence of nothing except an unwillingness to address the issues.

    your confidence in flying in a plane or crossing a bridge etc

    well, here’s the thing – i did the engineering studies to understand how a bridge stands up and how a plane stays in the air and how circuits work – and to quite a senior level of math

    Attempts to claim badges of authority, add nothing to poorly presented claims in scientific debates.

    but that i cross a bridge or fly in a plane has nothing to do with any of those studies – nothing at all

    Really? Evaluating the reliability of function of an engineering structure, has nothing to do with understanding the regulatory regime governing it, quality control mechanisms, the qualifications of its designers, understanding the mechanisms, or an objective visual inspection?

    i cross a bridge because i can see or not if it is rickety or solid – and i bet any Christian would cross a bridge based on the same preceptions

    Yes! – You use the objective observations of scientific methodology, and unsurprisingly SOME educated Christians, Mohammedans, and Jews do the same, rather than relying on blind faith! Unqualified persons usually find a structure is rickety, when it, or bits of it, fall down!

    i fly in planes not because of my faith in science but only because of my faith in the fact airplanes don’t regularly fall out of the sky.

    Some African airlines, and their passengers, use “faith in science” in place of scientific methodology and regulated servicing, which is why their time-expired aircraft fall out of the sky on a regular basis!

    If you have justifiable confidence in flying, it is because of a knowledge of regulated scientific methodology being used in servicing and checking of the aircraft.

    you do these things based on faith or habit – and nothing at all to do with science and math else you’d be out there measuring the bridge or plane and doing thorough calculations before you went anywhere near them

    If I was using such facilities in areas where they are not required to be regularly competently checked, or where some natural disaster could have damaged them, I would certainly be enquiring, measuring, and checking before use!

    stop arguing science with me – it’s a pointless direction – a waste of effort

    It is indeed a waste of effort, if you are not open to evidence and reasoning.

    and a constant “strawman”

    . . . and if you are going to use the term “strawman”, you should really check up on its meaning, because trying to stick it onto evidence-based reasoned arguments as an evasive assertion, only diminishes your credibility!

    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Straw_man
    A straw man is logical fallacy that occurs when a debater intentionally misrepresents an opponent’s position to make the opponent’s arguments appear easily defeated.

    Unintentional misrepresentations are also possible, but in this case, the individual is guilty only of simple ignorance. While their argument would still be fallacious, they can be at least excused of malice.



    Report abuse

  • Thank you Alan for your comments.
    Although I like the phrase of No True Scotsman fallacy, it is clearly evident that you could not differentiate between wrong practicing and teachings of Islam.

    If the people are no respecting the rules of a country and crossing the Red signals, it does not mean that the incident resulted form these breakages are attributed wrong laws of the country despite the fact the country consider these crossing are offences that the law. The law is right but it was not followed. likewise saying the science is evil because a result of it the distraction weapons were made; there are some individuals using it for wrong.

    About the superiority of Islam; the clams are proven by evidence. and if you prove to me that you have reasonable knowledge about Islam, I would go with you step by step covering and comparing Islam with another faiths including atheism. It is based on logic and self-honesty when going through that. Like Science studying any/or clarifying any subject should be on the context and on the right order.

    Thanks



    Report abuse

  • Saif Al Mazrooei
    Feb 8, 2016 at 2:06 pm

    About the superiority of Islam; the clams are proven by evidence.

    I think the onus would be on you to present such evidence – which of course would need to be more substantial than a quote from ancient texts.
    Atheists would ask the same of anyone from other religions, if they wished to support their claims.
    You will appreciate that most religions will claim their own is the “one true religion”! – which is why I mentioned the “No True Scotsman”!

    comparing Islam with another faiths including atheism.

    Atheism is not a “faith”. It is an absence of beliefs which are based on faith. Unlike religions atheism has no creeds or dogmas.
    Atheism is an absence of beliefs in gods – all gods!
    Many atheists would hold to Humanist philosophies, or would support scientific methods of understanding the world, but those are separate issues.



    Report abuse

  • alan

    “intentionally misrepresents an opponent’s position”

    this is what you seem to be doing constantly – you keep asserting that i am not being scientific and that i am being theistic

    over and over like a broken record

    you also seem to have not much understanding of other religions – it looks like you paint them all with one brush – the Christian brush

    and your “no true Scotsman” bit

    well, by your application of it to Saif’s words one can then do the same for, say, all Americans. George Bush is a war criminal but if we were to then judge all Americans on George Bush we’d have to agree that all Americans are war criminals. All Americans are murderers, all of them are thieves, all of them are child molesters etc etc

    Saif is correct – you should not judge a billion people on the terrible (and illegal) acts of the few and you certainly should not point to heinous acts of individuals and assert that because they have some attribute that all who have that attribute are likewise guilty. This is a nasty, intellectually dishonest thing to do – made even worse by the cloud of straw you throw up constantly to try to hide what you are saying.

    I see this behaviour repeated in so many places on the net – and it ranges from outright vitriol through to fair words cloaking foul positions.

    One is either for peace or one is for war.

    pop



    Report abuse

  • Peak Oil Poet
    Feb 8, 2016 at 3:24 pm

    alan

    “intentionally misrepresents an opponent’s position”

    this is what you seem to be doing constantly –

    Repeatedly asserting this adds nothing to your claim. I have given clear explanations and links.

    you keep asserting that i am not being scientific and that i am being theistic

    Err no! this is no mere assertion. I keep pointing out your references to “faith” as a thinking process, and the difference between this and evidenced based scientific reasoning in reaching conclusions.

    over and over like a broken record

    Given your failure to actually engage with the arguments and links provided, and your repetitive use of argument by assertion, your psychological projection would be the obvious issue!

    you also seem to have not much understanding of other religions

    This sounds like the use of the Negative Proof fallacy!
    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Negative_proof
    You do not know what X is. Therefore we [I] do.

    You have no basis for that assertion, and it would be begging the question to make such an assertion, simply because I disagree with your opinions.

    – it looks like you paint them all with one brush – the Christian brush

    I have people of various religions in my acquaintance, – and it is decades since I had any involvement with organised Christianity.

    If you wish to assert that Islam and Judaism (or any other religions from the thousands which have existed, and which anthropologists have studied) are based on evidence rather than faith, go ahead and present the evidence.

    BTW: I am already aware of the existence of cultural Christians and secular Jews! Apostasy in Islam, I understand is a problem for moderates!

    I am also aware that Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, come in many diverse forms,, sects and denominations. – Even without looking further at Shinto, Buddhism, Jainism, Hindu cultures, tribal religions, classical gods, or historical religious roots.



    Report abuse

  • @Saif Al Mazrooei

    Feb 8, 2016 at 3:50 am

    Not the writer nor Richard Dawkins have a proper knowledge of Islam; it is just searching and filtering the dust bin instead of desk.

    Part of any subject or one side of it will never give nor will be sufficient to give the right explanation, especially out of context that is always used by these guys.

    Seriously Saif, you are extremely impressed with your self-appointed Islamic scholar in service to the stupid atheists status.

    Do you really think that there are no commenters here or any kaffar in this world who can’t read the Koran and Haddith for themselves? I mean, give me a break, that Koran is written on the level of a ten year old by our standards. It is simple as it was meant to be. The only thing about it that is complicated is the “interpretation” that you and your fellow Muslims engage in when they read something in that cruel book that they just can’t reconcile with what the outside world knows to be just simple human rights. That’s when we see the good Muslim’s mind start leaping and spinning to provide the proper “interpretation”.

    Oh and the context thing is getting old. Do you think you’re the only person who can utilize “context” while reading a book? This is an excuse to stop the conversation from happening. Again, even school children understand “context” while reading.

    This must come as some shock to you but there are many very smart, very nice, good people who can read that book and understand it – context and all – and come to the conclusion that it’s an old Middle Eastern fairy tale full of bad, cruel, nasty ideas that should have been lost in the dust of time. Yes, we read your book and no, we don’t like it. All the condescending explanation in the world won’t change that.

    So please don’t accuse us of lacking the brain power to understand that book. It’s written in a boring, droning idiot level with a thousand repetitions of some very offensive ideas that even a child would understand. I’ve read the book more than once and have yet to find a single idea that is good and useful. If you think that you and other pious Muslims extract the beautiful essence of that book but all of those evil kaffar only understand bad from it then consider that you’re so brainwashed that you’ve lost the ability to make proper judgements.

    and if you prove to me that you have reasonable knowledge about Islam, I would go with you step by step

    Get over yourself!



    Report abuse

  • Peak Oil Poet
    Feb 8, 2016 at 3:24 pm

    One is either for peace or one is for war.

    This at best, demonstrates a black and white polarised view of available options which would be useless in any attempt at a diplomatic settlement!
    It is a classic example of the False Dilemma fallacy!

    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/False_dilemma
    A false dilemma, is a logical fallacy which involves presenting two opposing views, options or outcomes in such a way that they seem to be the only possibilities: that is, if one is true, the other must be false, or, more typically, if you do not accept one then the other must be accepted. The reality in most cases is that there are many in-between or other alternative options, not just two mutually exclusive ones.



    Report abuse

  • Peak Oil Poet
    Feb 8, 2016 at 3:24 pm

    and your

    “no true Scotsman” bit

    well, by your application of it to Saif’s words one can then do the same for, say, all Americans. George Bush is a war criminal but if we were to then judge all Americans on George Bush we’d have to agree that all Americans are war criminals. All Americans are murderers, all of them are thieves, all of them are child molesters etc etc

    As an attempt to address the linked “No True Scotsman” fallacy, of cherry picked rosy beliefs excluding negative features, this response comes under the NOT EVEN WRONG FALLACY!
    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong
    The phrase implies that not only is someone not making a valid point in a discussion, but they don’t even understand the nature of the discussion itself, or the things that need to be understood in order to participate.



    Report abuse

  • PoP above said something interesting (to me):

    Christianity … Faith
    Islam … Coercion
    Judaism … Negotiation

    Sorry, it was Obedience, wasn’t it. Same thing anyway. But the Negotiation bit made me smile, nod, and think “of course”.

    Yes, maybe we’ve been a bit blinkered, those of us from a more-or-less Xtain environment or background. Not all is Faith.

    On “confidence” in things: bridges, planes, other technologies, the engineering and the certification and the teaching and all the associated regulatory processes, and the defenses against corruption thereof. Maybe the bridge I cross regularly is unsafe, how would I know from a superficial glance? Maybe I have confidence that there is a process of inspection that hasn’t been corrupted by bribery. Is that Faith? Faith in my fellow humans? Not all of them, mind you, but enough of them to keep bridges from falling down too often. Or is it more akin to habitual confidence, it didn’t fall down last week, so what’s different about this week?

    Or maybe it’s confidence in statistics, and the underlying data: maybe bridges are falling down everywhere and the media is under-reporting because of some kind of corrupt political control. Certainly we become agitated when news is reported of the latest bridge, plane, ferry, train or other technological failure. We want to know exactly why this was Allowed To Happen, and we’re very much in favour of understanding the event, the better to avoid a similar one in future. This, more than aerodynamics and engineering, is why air travel is so spectacularly safe (most of the time), because of the feedback loop that begins with investigation, and ends with recommendations on how to improve things so this particular failure is less likely to recur.

    But it does all hinge on Faith, I suppose. Faith that enough of the population is decent and honest enough to follow procedure, pay attention, take care, do the Right Thing, and not tell lies, whatever their occupation.

    A Faith that is sometimes shocked, shaken, betrayed. And then “by their fruits ye shall know them” to quote about the only bit of old writing that I recall as ringing true. NASA landed 12 men on the moon, a spectacular success story. And then flew Shuttles with worse than 1.4% percent total catastrophic failure rate, a spectacular failure story, unless that’s an Acceptable Price. (To those following the Gun story, that’s more than 10 times safer than Russian Roulette).

    The big failures are so deeply traumatic that we pay them an enormous amount of attention: Titanic, Hindenberg, Chernobyl, Bhopal, Fukushima (though I must add Bhopal got a lot less attention than it deserved, given the scale of that disaster). And hopefully, change our ways, to reduce the probability of repetition.

    That’s my kind of Faith. It’s an adjustable faith, constantly being tweaked to keep up with observation. Crossing off those individuals and collections of individuals who betray it, be they preachers, teachers, cops, sales people, media people, government people, lobbyists, politicians.



    Report abuse

  • hooligan:

    “Sorry, it was Obedience, wasn’t it. Same thing anyway”

    no it’s not – they are opposite in sense and your use assumes/asserts that all Muslims are being led astray by someone or something. So, coerced by whom?

    i remember when i first flew in aircraft – they were military aircraft and i wanted to prove that i was more brave than my peers. It had little to do with faith and more to do with blind acceptance and testosterone

    ymmv

    pop



    Report abuse

  • OHooligan
    Feb 8, 2016 at 8:59 pm

    PoP above said something interesting (to me):

    Christianity … Faith

    Islam … Coercion – Obedience

    Judaism … Negotiation

    None of these are mutually exclusive, so the “faith” (belief without evidence or proof) issue remains.

    Confidence in scientific evidence is based on at least some supporting evidence, though probably less than 100%, so conflating this with religious or ideological “faith”, is a serious error.

    Judaism clearly has “obedience” in Sabbath requirement and kosher food.

    Christian monks and priests swear obedience. Islam requires constant reaffirmation of faith!

    The suggestion that these additional features substitute for “faith” ,is simply a red-herring!



    Report abuse

  • Peak Oil Poet
    Feb 7, 2016 at 6:10 pm

    “Wrong!
    These are all based on “faith” – which has NOTHING to do with scientific methodology…”

    why are you arguing science at me? I’m a scientist (post grad and multiple science majors) – who are you trying to convince? Yourself?

    When scientists argue, it is to make constructive contributions to the debate, to correct flawed methodology, correct asserted misconceptions, and to correct errors of logic, reasoning, and interpretations.

    stop arguing science with me – it’s a pointless direction – a waste of effort

    As I said earlier, it is a waste of effort, if you do not follow up on correcting mistaken assumptions, in the light of new evidence, do not correct errors of reasoning when these are pointed out, and are not open to evidence based rational argument.

    This is a science site where scientific/historical evidence is used to support claims, and competent inductive and deductive reasoning is valued.

    I debate on many threads with scientists, where we rationally put together and build an accurate evidenced view of working systems.



    Report abuse

  • 40
    Pinball1970 says:

    >peakoilpoet we will never know – can never know – everything – that’s kindof a fundamental of physics
    and frankly, the very idea that we might be able to know everything should be kindof terrifying

    Compared to what was known at the time the bible was written we do now know everything relatively speaking.

    We know why we get infectious diseases (not demons) why we get rainbows (not a gesture from a god) and why there could not have been a global flood (no Noah or ark) or an Adam and Eve (No creation)

    We also know about Heisenberg’s work so we won’t waste time on trying to find out what cannot be known about matter.(I know some physics)

    We don’t know what the universe is mainly made up of or why it is expanding at the rate at what it is.

    We don’t know what gravity is, what time is and or what the vast majority of the universe is made of.

    These are things that will be found out in the next few decades possibly sooner and I for one am keen to know what the answers are, it is not a terrifying prospect.

    Even if jesus was the son of a god then neither jesus or god have made any attempt whatsoever to explain anything regarding the universe.

    In fact they have been part of a huge deception by contributing to a book, that has only led us down blind alleys using made up stories.



    Report abuse

  • @LaurieB

    that Koran is written on the level of a ten year old by our standards.

    and come to the conclusion that it’s an old Middle Eastern fairy tale full of bad, cruel, nasty ideas that should have been lost in the dust of time. Yes, we read your book and no, we don’t like it. All the condescending explanation in the world won’t change that.

    It’s written in a boring, droning idiot level with a thousand repetitions of some very offensive ideas that even a child would understand. I’ve read the book more than once and have yet to find a single idea that is good and useful

    Hi LurieB

    the above are quoted from your comments.
    May I have a date and time from you to spare 10 minutes to be here online and answer one question I have for you?
    if you answer it, I am at your disposal. All the people on this page will be witness.

    waiting for your kind reply

    Saif



    Report abuse

  • As Olgun indicates, you don’t need to make an appointment with me.

    Indeed not.

    And for everyone’s information, any question posted here may be answered by any user. There are no 1:1 discussions here.

    The mods



    Report abuse

  • Peak Oil Poet
    Feb 5, 2016 at 2:23 pm

    Islam has a very long and amazingly varied history – some of it quite beautiful and inspiring. Centuries of peace, learning, growth.

    I’m not sure which version of history you are taking that from but it certainly bears very little resemblance to the truth. Prior to the invention, or “making up”, of Islam by the false prophet Mohammed the middle east actually was a centre of learning and growth. Persia, more or less what we now call Iran, was world famous for its science, medicine, astronomy and maths. Islam put a stop to all of that. Islam spread in a series of waves called the Muslim Expansion which lasted from the 8th through the 11th century and spread through north and east Africa and out through Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan. During this period battalions of armed Muslims enforced conversion to Islam of everyone they encountered and those who refused were executed.

    At a time when the population of the planet was only about 140 million it is estimated that the Muslim Expansion put some 20 million people to death. The equivalent on today’s earth of the death of 1 billion of the 7 billion population.

    The Crusades were Europe’s solution to the Muslim Expansion heading their way too after which the Muslim world more or less stagnated. No more learning and definitely very little growth. If you look at the total output of the Muslim world in terms of Nobel prizes, scientific papers, new inventions it’s vanishingly small. With 50% of the population of most Muslim countries reduced to the status of chattels (women), economic output was too low to pay for learning and research institutions. Only the world’s recent reliance on oil has brought any wealth to the region.

    Islam is a barbaric, medieval, misogynistic cult that has doomed its adherents to remain in the dark ages.



    Report abuse

  • 49
    Pinball1970 says:

    Islam is a barbaric, medieval, misogynistic cult that has doomed its adherents to remain in the dark ages.

    How do we keep it away from children? I don’t think we can, we have already lost that battle, to win the war we have to promote progressive Islam and support people Maajid Nawaz.
    Also do we are trying to do every day, promote secularism and keep this religion and others like restricted to churches mosques and synagogues.



    Report abuse

  • Peak Oil Poet
    Feb 9, 2016 at 4:49 pm

    sandwitch

    I’m not sure which version of history you are taking that from but it certainly bears very little resemblance to the truth.

    drivel

    No links to any historical references?

    Israeliesque drivel

    . . . and no referenced explanation of Babylonian / Persian / Greek / Arab links to knowledge since lost, long before the state of Israel was established?

    It’s beginning to look like gratuitous asserted contradictions again!

    Some here actually discuss researched evidence based history and archaeology. – Including caliphates!

    https://www.richarddawkins.net/2016/01/signs-of-modern-astronomy-seen-in-ancient-babylon/



    Report abuse

  • I should add that Islam is of course not the only religion to stifle, or try to stifle science and learning. The Catholic church has fought science every inch of the way for centuries, persecuting anyone who disagreed with its dogma, executing great minds like Giordano Bruno and subjecting Galileo to house arrest.

    Knowledge is anathema to all religions because it invariably contradicts and disproves the primitive waffle that religions thrive on. It removes the mantle of superiority that church leaders cloak themselves in when they claim that only their own divine inspiration leads to the truth.

    Over the centuries every single tenet of both the catholic church and Islam has been disproved. The earth is not 6000 years old, salt and fresh water do of course mix as any fule do know except when they’ve been brainwashed into believing drivel, we evolved from animal precursors over millions of years not from Adam and Eve in a single supernatural event. There was no global flood nor enough water on the planet to create one, rainbows are scientific phenomena caused by water droplets in the atmosphere not supernatural evidence of some divine pact.

    Religion is the single greatest source of human misery that has ever existed and it continues to do its dirty work by fostering the spread of AIDS in Africa and the pitting of sect against sect such as Catholics and Protestants and Sunni versus Shiite muslims. It accumulates trillions of (insert currency of choice) and puts only a tiny fraction of that back into charitable works. The vast majority goes into self gratification and expansion of the religion itself.

    If every religious person devoted the time they spent glorifying their imaginary sky pixie into charitable work and helping others instead the world could be a much better place.



    Report abuse

  • Moderator message

    We have removed a comment that was in breach of our Terms of Use. The aim on this site is thoughtful, constructive discussion, even where there is disagreement.

    Section 14 of the Terms, Conditions and Privacy document linked to at the foot of each page sets out the ethos and rules of the site in more detail. These may differ quite substantially from other sites users may be familiar with, so we do recommend taking a look.

    The mods



    Report abuse

  • Saif Al Mazrooei
    Feb 8, 2016 at 2:06 pm

    Thank you Alan for your comments.
    Although I like the phrase of No True Scotsman fallacy, it is clearly evident that you could not differentiate between wrong practicing and teachings of Islam.

    Which version(s) are the “wrong teachings”? There are so many to choose from! – all claimed to be the right teachings by their followers!

    http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/islamic-sects-schools-branches-movements/

    Peak Oil Poet
    Feb 8, 2016 at 3:24 pm
    you also seem to have not much understanding of other religions – it looks like you paint them all with one brush – the Christian brush

    MMMmmmm – Assumption is the mother of error!



    Report abuse

  • I want to explore one more area where religion has massively hampered progress. Prior to the emergence of both Christianity and Islam medicine was starting to take great leaps forward. The ancient Greeks dissected bodies and started to learn how the parts were interconnected and this was taken further in Persia where quite complex operations including cataract surgery were undertaken.

    Then religion reared its ugly head. The Christian church banned autopsies and this was not reversed until the 14th century. Islam followed suit and medical expertise fell into an abyss that lasted for nearly a thousand years. Without the ability to find the true causes of disease and death medicine fell back on leeches and the teachings of Galen and Hyppocrates. Only in the last 300 or so years has medicine evolved beyond a belief in the 4 humors of black bile, yellow bile, phlegm and blood causing disorders if their balance goes astray. Without religion it is likely that medicine would have been at 17th century levels of expertise back in the dark ages.



    Report abuse

  • LaurieB Feb 8, 2016 at 4:35 pm

    and come to the conclusion that **it’s an old Middle
    Eastern fairy tale full of bad, cruel, nasty ideas that should have
    been lost in the dust of time.

    By the way, your claim is mentioned on the Holy Quraan:

    إِذَا تُتْلَىٰ عَلَيْهِ آيَاتُنَا قَالَ أَسَاطِيرُ الْأَوَّلِينَ

    [83:14] Who, when Our Signs are recited unto him, says: ‘Fables of the ancients!’

    It’s written in a boring, droning idiot level with a thousand
    repetitions of some very offensive ideas that even a child would
    understand.

    I’ve read the book more than once and have yet to find a single idea
    that is good and useful

    I mean, give me a break, that Koran is written on the level of a ten
    year old by our standards
    . It is simple as it was meant to be.

    You said that you have read the Quran and more than once, it is written on a boring, droning idiot level, and on a level of ten year old by your standards. The below is one verse in Holy Quran, that you described, is challenging you. below it is my question.

    قُل لَّئِنِ اجْتَمَعَتِ الْإِنسُ وَالْجِنُّ عَلَىٰ أَن يَأْتُوا بِمِثْلِ هَٰذَا الْقُرْآنِ لَا يَأْتُونَ بِمِثْلِهِ وَلَوْ كَانَ بَعْضُهُمْ لِبَعْضٍ ظَهِيرًا (88)

    [17:88]. Say: “If the mankind and the jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur’an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another.”

    My question

    **You are saying that the Quran is written on the level of ten year old by your standards in addition to the earlier mentioned comments; the Quran has 6236 verses, I am willing to give up my faith if you produce **ONLY one chapter of just 10 verses similar to the Holy Quran? in another word, prove you can defeat the challenge mention on the Quran. ****

    Below is a sample of verses talking about step by step developmental stages of intra-uterine life in Holy Quran, please bear in mind this was before 1400 years:

    وَلَقَدْ خَلَقْنَا الْإِنْسَانَ مِنْ سُلَالَةٍ مِنْ طِينٍ(12) ثُمَّ جَعَلْنَاهُ نُطْفَةً فِي قَرَارٍ مَكِينٍ (13) ثُمَّ خَلَقْنَا النُّطْفَةَ عَلَقَةً فَخَلَقْنَا الْعَلَقَةَ مُضْغَةً فَخَلَقْنَا الْمُضْغَةَ عِظَامًا فَكَسَوْنَا الْعِظَامَ لَحْمًا ثُمَّ أَنْشَأْنَاهُ خَلْقًا آخَرَ ۚ فَتَبَارَكَ اللَّهُ أَحْسَنُ الْخَالِقِينَ (14)

    [23:12] And indeed We created man (Adam) out of an extract of clay (water and earth).

    [23:13] Thereafter We made him (the offspring of Adam) as a Nutfah (mixed drops of the male and female sexual discharge) (and lodged it) in a safe lodging (womb of the woman).

    [23:14] Then We made the Nutfah into a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood), then We made the clot into a little lump of flesh, then We made out of that little lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, and then We brought it forth as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators.

    I sincerely hope the question will be respected and answered.



    Report abuse

  • The reason I cannot allow this incomplete picture of Muslim cultures to stand from Arkrid Sandwich et al, is that Muslims need to see the real flower of their culture’s achievements. This is very far from being the Koran. It was never the religious scholars who cast a scintilla of light upon the world, but those genuine scientific and cultural scholars, keepers and extenders of wisdom when Christianity had all but put out the lights, so impoverished was its intellectual culture.

    Read what Jim Al-Kahlili has to say in Pathfinders and The House of Wisdom



    Report abuse

  • @Saif Al Mazrooei

    Feb 10, 2016 at 3:43 pm

    Fables of the ancients

    Yes Saif, The Koran and the Bible are both fables of the ancients. I stand by that and have seen no evidence that would change my mind. I hope you are aware of the time difference between the writing of the Bible and the writing of the Koran. You know that the Bible was written before the Koran, right? Your prophet Mohammed was no doubt aware of the old stories of the Jews and Christians and stories from other old cultures as well. Many of these stories are included in the Koran and have been changed slightly from the original stories in the holy books of the Jews and of the Christians too.

    The passage that you sent me is really a typical explanation of what must have happened often as Muslims spread their religion aggressively. They came across people who were not interested in converting and decided that they were bad and that they must be threatened with death and suffering in fire. When these non-Muslims explained that they were not impressed with Islam and its ideas (Fables of the ancients!) then the Koran goes on to prompt the threats of pain and suffering as a defense of Islam.

    Saif, Why do think it’s a good thing to threaten the kaffar with threats of burning in hell? If the Koran has/had such great ideas then why wouldn’t everyone be happy to accept it without threats of death and pain? I hear nice ideas every day and If I decide that they’re good then I accept them right away without being threatened to do so.

    Islam, like Christianity is programed with strong defense mechanisms against the non-believer. The quote you presented is just one of them. The Koran is full of these monotonous threats over and over again. People get sick and tired of being threatened. This is just cruelty and that causes the Koran to become absolutely boring after just a few pages. Not the greatest writing really.

    [17:88]. Say: “If the mankind and the jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur’an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another.”

    Saif, Do you believe that there really are such things as Jinns? I have to tell you truthfully that there is no such thing as these fanciful creatures. These are old fairy tale creatures that no adult should be proud of believing in. How can I appreciate your quote when I don’t believe that the Jinn exist? After that, the Koran is saying that the Koran is great. That’s just not very impressive. Sorry, but I just don’t agree that the Koran is great.

    I am willing to give up my faith if you produce **ONLY one chapter of just 10 verses similar to the Holy Quran? in another word, prove you can defeat the challenge mention on the Quran. ****

    Ok, Saif, I don’t care one bit if you give up your religion or not. I gave up my religion because I didn’t like the ideas that they forced me to believe. If you don’t have the guts to think for yourself and say no to bad ideas then just continue following orders from people who want to control you. It’s up to you and doesn’t affect me.
    I read many books and some are good and some are not so good. If you want to compare the Koran to other books then get going and start reading books from all over the world. People who only read one book – the Koran or the Bible, are not well educated. They are simple minded. If you speak English or any other language then try to read books in those languages. There are many wonderful ideas out there in the world that will thrill you and inspire you. Instead of proposing this strange little contest, why not challenge yourself to learn about the subject that we discuss on this website and try to join in?
    I recommend that you start your education with a book on developmental biology. Start with the chapter on embryology.

    [23:12] And indeed We created man (Adam) out of an extract of clay (water and earth).
    Humans are definitely not made out of clay. NO CLAY WHATSOEVER.
    [23:13] Thereafter We made him (the offspring of Adam) as a Nutfah (mixed drops of the male and female sexual discharge) (and lodged it) in a safe lodging (womb of the woman).
    Very primitive thinking. What female discharge? Menstrual blood? What does that have to do with a blastula?
    [23:14] Then We made the Nutfah into a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood), then We made the clot into a little lump of flesh, then We made out of that little lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh,

    Saif, seriously, this is a very simplistic little story that was probably the best that these desert dwellers could manage and all credit to them for trying to understand things but if you would please take one hour to read an actual biology textbook you will be astounded to read about how sperm and ovum combine and begin to multiply. The real story that we know today is very complicated and much more amazing than the awful story that you presented from the Koran.

    If you keep trying and trying to find some scientific knowledge from a book that is a thousand years old just because someone told you that there are miracles hidden there, you will waste your time looking for something that isn’t there. After years of this unfortunate pursuit you will realize that you were looking in the wrong place. Don’t lose time. Move forward not backward.

    I have tried to answer your points with respect for you Saif. I want to respect people if they are good people with good ideas. If someone has bad ideas then I do not have to respect bad ideas. If a person has bad ideas and acts badly because of those bad ideas then I will think that they are a bad person.

    Understand?

    People -> respect,

    Ideas -> Maybe respect or maybe no respect.



    Report abuse

  • @saif

    I don’t really understand what you are asking. Humans are not made from clay for starters. Then a bit of ancient gibberish about how fetuses develop which would have been obvious to anyone who had dissected animal or human remains of pregnant females and knew the basic principles of sex. Do you really think any of this counts as divine knowledge that no one could have worked out for themselves?

    The bible and the quran were written by men. End of. There isn’t a single word or concept in either of them that people of ordinary intelligence couldn’t have known by themselves anyway. No divine inspiration necessary. If you think any of this childish gibberish is wondrous revelation then you are setting a very low bar for human intelligence.



    Report abuse

  • Ok I’ll have a crack at it. Ten verses of gibberish coming up.

    In the beginning there was only the Holy Chocolate Teapot (blessed be its name) and the teapot looked out into the void and thought “f**k this for a game of soldiers, I want someone to play with”.
    And the Teapot extended its magnificent mind out into the void and said “let there be stars and planets and the laws of physics” and so it came to pass.
    And the Teapot looked upon its works and was pleased but there was still a nagging doubt in its mind. “Where all de white women at?” thought the Teapot.
    So the Teapot gathered up a lump of dirt and breathed mightily upon it but the dirt stubbornly refused to be anything other than dirt.
    “Goosnargh” thought the Teapot even though this was eons before the birth of Douglas Adams and the creation of some of the greatest books ever written. The Teapot went back to square one and after much scribbling on bits of paper and the backs of envelopes which come through the post from people trying to sell you double glazing and have no other use than to jot stuff down on before you chuck them in the recycling the Teapot came up with the concept of sexual reproduction. “Have at it guys” thought the Teapot. “You’re gonna enjoy this.”
    Being omnipotent the Teapot dispensed with all the dirt and clay nonsense and just clicked its imaginary fingers and created a man, a woman and a whole bunch of animals and plants.
    And verily did the man and the woman and the various animals take to rogering each other with considerable glee. The man and the woman created little baby humans and the animals created little baby animals, each to their kind, although they evolved a bit too as time went by but this was long before Darwin so no one took much notice.
    “Ok, I’m bored again now” thought the Teapot. “How about some worship given how great and omnipotent and omniscient I am.”
    So the Teapot told the man and woman and all their kids to worship him like there was no tomorrow or face being obliterated. This took away valuable time from the more important and interesting business of rogering each other but hey, what are you gonna do when something omnipotent threatens you with oblivion.
    Over time the offspring of the man and woman spread across the face of the earth and invented agriculture and writing and cooking with garlic and the internet and eventually realised they had no more use for the Teapot which was just a figment of someone’s imagination to start with and so apart from the occasional war, AIDS, the Republican party and a few other nasty things they all lived happily ever after. The End.



    Report abuse

  • Well we can take a vote on it but I reckon my little tale knocks spots off anything in either the bible or the koran so I reckon Saif is now obliged to renounce his religion.

    Seriously though it never ceases to amaze and baffle me how anyone can look at the infantile gibberish in the bible or koran and think that only a god could have written this or that there is even a shred of truth or meaning in bronze age creation myths or factually incorrect rubbish about where babies come from.

    What extraordinary cognitive dissonance must be at work to know that ordinary men have created great symphonies, paintings, sculptures and novels yet still think that none of them could have written some drab fairy tales for five year olds and that it had to be the work of a god. Well what a pitiful god is all I have to say. All that supposed omniscience and the best he could do is write drivel about clay and bodily fluids? Now if there was something in any of these books about General Relativity or Quantum Theory or even a semi cogent description of how evolution through natural selection really works then I could grant that it would have been beyond the ken of ancient men.

    But no, there’s nothing that any semi literate goat herder couldn’t have cobbled together and on a bad night at that. They aren’t even nice fairy tales. They’re full of torture, misogyny, sadism, homophobia, murder, genocide, rape and terror. What extraordinary power these god goggles must have that so many people wear when they can read this filth and be filled with wonder whereas all I feel is the need to go and vomit my guts out in the kitchen sink.



    Report abuse

  • @ Akrid Sandwich

    It goes further when a person asks you an incomprehensible question and offers bible/koran gibberish as evidence convinced that he has won the day before an answer is given.

    Well we can take a vote on it

    I was going to ask Saif who would judge the competition? In his mind……..how can he even come close to judging Lauries words against the words of ‘god’. I mean…..Laurie is brilliant but hardly a god!!! 😉



    Report abuse

  • I’m really not sure why you think these verses you’ve quoted are so knock-down impressive, Saif? Are you suggesting that such astonishing knowledge and insight, written down 1400 years ago, could only have had a divine source?

    If so, I am afraid you are simply unaware of how woefully inadequate the description you quote is, how very far it is from conveying what is now known of the complex processes of conception and gestation; and of the fact that there is nothing in your quote that the Ancient Greeks hadn’t worked out for themselves, not 1400 years ago, but getting on for 2500 years ago.

    The Ancient Greeks had nothing like our present-day understanding of pregnancy, of course, but they certainly understood that it required elements from both the male and female, and that this mixing was achieved through sexual intercourse. They also knew – having performed dissections of dead bodies – about the existence and role of the womb. And they were also well aware of the existence of bones concealed by our flesh. And since they were approximately aware of the elements required for conception (their understanding was not complete, but certainly no less complete than the vague description you’ve quoted from the Koran), and also aware of the baby that resulted, of course they were aware that bones and flesh developed in the course of gestation.

    The Ancient Greeks worked that much out for themselves – no divine revelation required. And there had been getting on for 1100 years for that knowledge to have been carried – by humans! – from Ancient Greece to the Arab world.

    And even if your Allah really had discussed the matter with Mohammed over 1000 years later, why was he limited to passing on only what the Ancient Greeks already knew? Why could he not increase the sum of human knowledge about the process rather than just regurgitate ancient half-information? Why, rather than talking in vague terms about clots and little lumps of flesh, did he not reveal something useful, such as helpful hints on how to minimise the risk of miscarriage or birth defects, or harm to the mother during pregnancy and childbirth?

    The regurgitation of semi-information long known, along with the kind of guess anyone could make if they stopped and thought about it for a few minutes, does not require divine revelation. And had divine revelation on this subject indeed taken place, we could expect it to greatly advance human knowledge, not just echo it. As it is, your Allah appears to have known no more than the Ancient Greeks and considerably less than modern Biology students will learn from their first-year textbooks.

    Far from being proof of the divine origin of the Koran, Saif, the verses you quote are so inadequate, so very UN-earthshattering, that they actually underline the atheists’ contention – that your Koran was the work of humans without any especial insight above and beyond what was commonly known at the time.



    Report abuse

  • BTW Saif.

    [23:13] Thereafter We made him (the offspring of Adam) as a Nutfah (mixed drops of the male and female sexual discharge) (and lodged it) in a safe lodging (womb of the woman).

    My muslim father thought that a baby meant that the male planted an egg in the ‘safe lodging’ and female only looked after it. Interpretation of these texts are the main problem.



    Report abuse

  • Below is a sample of verses talking about step by step developmental stages of intra-uterine life in Holy Quran, please bear in mind this was before 1400 years:

    وَلَقَدْ خَلَقْنَا الْإِنْسَانَ مِنْ سُلَالَةٍ مِنْ طِينٍ(12) ثُمَّ جَعَلْنَاهُ نُطْفَةً فِي قَرَارٍ مَكِينٍ (13) ثُمَّ خَلَقْنَا النُّطْفَةَ عَلَقَةً فَخَلَقْنَا الْعَلَقَةَ مُضْغَةً فَخَلَقْنَا الْمُضْغَةَ عِظَامًا فَكَسَوْنَا الْعِظَامَ لَحْمًا ثُمَّ أَنْشَأْنَاهُ خَلْقًا آخَرَ ۚ فَتَبَارَكَ اللَّهُ أَحْسَنُ الْخَالِقِينَ (14)

    Even if it was writen 5000 years ago or fifty, or whatever: the information is blatently wrong and that´s why we are all here Saif!!
    You don´t need anyone or anygod telling lies. And if this was told by god, why did he not be (more) accurate?
    You just need to stop believing in what your dessert-dweller Mohammed thought he was being told by your god and just start thinking for yourself and either get an education or educate yourself (there´s a lot of neet stuff to be read on the Internet: and clearly you have Internet wherever you are)

    Don´t keep on believing in things which are clearly not true and join us here and be respected for the human-being you are in stead of having to fear for your hand being chopped of if it in any way may have offended you (or your god..).

    welcome to the other side, the side of freedom and science (and not slavery and faith)



    Report abuse

  • Saif Al Mazrooei
    Feb 10, 2016 at 3:43 pm

    Below is a sample of verses talking about step by step developmental stages of intra-uterine life in Holy Quran, please bear in mind this was before 1400 years:

    [23:12] And indeed We created man (Adam) out of an extract of clay (water and earth).

    This is primitive mythology, and totally inconsistent with the history of the Earth, abiogenesis, the evolution of life, and the evolution of humans.

    [23:13] Thereafter We made him (the offspring of Adam) as a Nutfah (mixed drops of the male and female sexual discharge) (and lodged it) in a safe lodging (womb of the woman).

    The author had some slight understanding of sexual processes – hardly surprising in herdsmen breeding animals.

    [23:14] Then We made the Nutfah into a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood), then We made the clot into a little lump of flesh, then We made out of that little lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, and then We brought it forth as another creation.

    Clots of blood are related to menstruation, not zygote / blastocyst implants.

    Zygotes and blastocysts are microscopic, so could not be “clots of blood”, while “little lumps of flesh must refer to some observation of a later stage foetus, embryo, or menstrual discharge – possibly from some butchered animal of murdered woman.

    We clothed the bones with flesh, and then We brought it forth as another creation.

    The bones are not clothed with “flesh” later. The “flesh” bones and organs develop together.

    This may be impressive to those who have a minimal understanding of biology or medicine, but it is no way a coherent description of foetal development as accurately described by modern science.

    https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002398.htm



    Report abuse

  • Olgun

    Laurie is brilliant but hardly a god!!!

    If you mean “brilliant” in the Brit usage then I’ll take the compliment since you all use it so loosely. “Free beer – brilliant!”, “The British Pound is worth ten times the Dollar, brilliant!” and so on.

    But if you mean it in the American sense (and why should you after all?) I’ll have to say that we reserve that compliment for displays of profound genius. Therefore, I humbly decline the compliment. I’m just doing the best I can with the meager brain power that I got (directly a function of my somewhat crappy DNA). We needed to say that clearly, especially on this thread, if you get the drift.

    Right. Hardly a God. But Olgun, if we had met in a disco decades past I’m betting you would have given the possibility of my Goddess status more favorable consideration. And don’t think I wouldn’t have used my goddess superpowers to lead you around by the nose. 😉 Now that’s brilliant on any continent.



    Report abuse

  • 69
    Pinball1970 says:

    @Saif

    Hi Saif and thanks for staying with us!

    Many posters have pointed out the conflict with what we know about biology and what is says in the Quran

    I wont add to that.

    I will take one point and expand a little bit

    The Koran was written down in the 7thC CE and bible is believed to have been written down in 650BCE

    The stories spread throughout the Quran contain a lot of the main prophets and patriarchs of the Jewish and Christian stories including: Adam, Abraham, Noah, Moses, Lot, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph and jesus.

    The stories regarding these characters would have been extremely common since many of those characters and stories were themselves taken from earlier tribal myths from other peoples, Philistines, Egyptians, Babylonians, Hittites and Sumerians to name a few.

    So the stories regarding Moses for example was very likely to be based on an Egyptian tale (Moses is an Egyptian name) and there zero archaeology to support a mass exodus of 600,000 males from Egypt into the desert.

    Academics and scholars are in agreement on this point so the Quran is merely supporting a second or third hand Egyptian myth, no Moses exodus or 10 commandments.

    It is widely recognized that the global flood is based on the Sumerian Gilgamesh myth that predated the Israelites old testament, there is archaeology to support this.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh

    So Noah is another third or fourth hand myth rehashed by the Quran writers.

    Adam and Eve clearly did not exist (Adam eats the apple first in the Quran version?) and Jesus was performing miracles turning clay birds into real birds and speaking from the cradle.

    Same characters just with a twist, none of the canonical NT documents have an event regarding Jesus (who did exist probably) and these accounts were written over 5 centuries before the Quran was put to paper.

    These stories would have been around by then (Book of Thomas) but just did not make final cut to the bible.

    This is why Mohammed was rejected by the Jews (among other things) they recognized their own stories and knew he was just making it up.



    Report abuse

  • @Laurie 8:07 am

    if we had met in a disco decades past I’m betting you would have given
    the possibility of my Goddess status more favorable consideration

    I have no doubt that you would have shone more brilliantly than any disco ball!!!!



    Report abuse

  • The Koran was written down in the 7thC CE and bible is believed to have been written down in 650BCE

    the old testament would have been written before the lord came down to earth, but the parts the Xtians believe in are from after he departed again from us..



    Report abuse

  • Anti-theist preacher
    Feb 11, 2016 at 9:47 am

    The Koran was written down in the 7thC CE and bible is believed to have been written down in 650BCE

    There seem to be some omissions from the stories, when archaeology is examined!

    http://news.discovery.com/history/religion/god-wife-yahweh-asherah-110318.htm
    “After years of research specializing in the history and religion of Israel, however, I have come to a colorful and what could seem, to some, uncomfortable conclusion that God had a wife,” she added.

    Stavrakopoulou bases her theory on ancient texts, amulets and figurines unearthed primarily in the ancient Canaanite coastal city called Ugarit, now modern-day Syria. All of these artifacts reveal that Asherah was a powerful fertility goddess.

    Asherah’s connection to Yahweh, according to Stavrakopoulou, is spelled out in both the Bible and an 8th century B.C. inscription on pottery found in the Sinai desert at a site called Kuntillet Ajrud.

    “The inscription is a petition for a blessing,” she shares. “Crucially, the inscription asks for a blessing from ‘Yahweh and his Asherah.’ Here was evidence that presented Yahweh and Asherah as a divine pair. And now a handful of similar inscriptions have since been found, all of which help to strengthen the case that the God of the Bible once had a wife.



    Report abuse

  • @ alan4discussion:
    Anti-theist preacher
    Feb 11, 2016 at 9:47 am

    The Koran was written down in the 7thC CE and bible is believed to have been written down in 650BCE

    this remark was made by Pinball1970 . I only commented on it.
    but thanx for your further coments..



    Report abuse

  • Anti-theist preacher
    Feb 12, 2016 at 10:29 am

    this remark was made by Pinball1970 . I only commented on it.
    but thanx for your further comments..

    Sorry about the mis-attributation.

    If you type > at the start of quote lines, and leave a double line-space after them, it highlights them and makes them clearer.



    Report abuse

  • 78
    Pinball1970 says:

    @Anti-theist-preacher did I make a glaring error?

    [Edited by moderator to correct the @ reference.

    If using @, then always with the full user name, please – otherwise you risk the wrong user being notified of your comment. To find the user name – which is frequently NOT the same as the display name – let your cursor hover over the name displayed beside any comment by the user in question. A long link like this will appear at the bottom of your screen:

    https://www.richarddawkins.net/members/[USER NAME]/
    

    For the @ function you just need the final bit of the link, i.e. the user name – without the / before and after.

    Please note that you do not have to use the @ function: you can just type the name of the user you’re replying to as normal. In this case they won’t get a notification of your reply.]



    Report abuse

  • LaurieB
    Feb 10, 2016 at 6:54 pm

    @Saif Al Mazrooei

    Feb 10, 2016 at 3:43 pm

    Fables of the ancients

    Yes Saif, The Koran and the Bible are both fables of the ancients. I stand by that and have seen no evidence that would change my mind. I hope you are aware of the time difference between the writing of the Bible and the writing of the Koran. You know that the Bible was written before the Koran, right? Your prophet Mohammed was no doubt aware of the old stories of the Jews and Christians and stories from other old cultures as well. Many of these stories are included in the Koran and have been changed slightly from the original stories in the holy books of the Jews and of the Christians too.

    The passage that you sent me is really a typical explanation of what must have happened often as Muslims spread their religion aggressively. They came across people who were not interested in converting and decided that they were bad and that they must be threatened with death and suffering in fire. When these non-Muslims explained that they were not impressed with Islam and its ideas (Fables of the ancients!) then the Koran goes on to prompt the threats of pain and suffering as a defense of Islam.

    Saif, Why do think it’s a good thing to threaten the kaffar with threats of burning in hell? If the Koran has/had such great ideas then why wouldn’t everyone be happy to accept it without threats of death and pain? I hear nice ideas every day and If I decide that they’re good then I accept them right away without being threatened to do so.

    Islam, like Christianity is programed with strong defense mechanisms against the non-believer. The quote you presented is just one of them. The Koran is full of these monotonous threats over and over again. People get sick and tired of being threatened. This is just cruelty and that causes the Koran to become absolutely boring after just a few pages. Not the greatest writing really.

    [17:88]. Say: “If the mankind and the jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur’an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another.”

    Saif, Do you believe that there really are such things as Jinns? I have to tell you truthfully that there is no such thing as these fanciful creatures. These are old fairy tale creatures that no adult should be proud of believing in. How can I appreciate your quote when I don’t believe that the Jinn exist? After that, the Koran is saying that the Koran is great. That’s just not very impressive. Sorry, but I just don’t agree that the Koran is great.

    I am willing to give up my faith if you produce **ONLY one chapter of just 10 verses similar to the Holy Quran? in another word, prove you can defeat the challenge mention on the Quran. ****

    Ok, Saif, I don’t care one bit if you give up your religion or not. I gave up my religion because I didn’t like the ideas that they forced me to believe. If you don’t have the guts to think for yourself and say no to bad ideas then just continue following orders from people who want to control you. It’s up to you and doesn’t affect me.
    I read many books and some are good and some are not so good. If you want to compare the Koran to other books then get going and start reading books from all over the world. People who only read one book – the Koran or the Bible, are not well educated. They are simple minded. If you speak English or any other language then try to read books in those languages. There are many wonderful ideas out there in the world that will thrill you and inspire you. Instead of proposing this strange little contest, why not challenge yourself to learn about the subject that we discuss on this website and try to join in?
    I recommend that you start your education with a book on developmental biology. Start with the chapter on embryology.

    [23:12] And indeed We created man (Adam) out of an extract of clay (water and earth).
    Humans are definitely not made out of clay. NO CLAY WHATSOEVER.
    [23:13] Thereafter We made him (the offspring of Adam) as a Nutfah (mixed drops of the male and female sexual discharge) (and lodged it) in a safe lodging (womb of the woman).
    Very primitive thinking. What female discharge? Menstrual blood? What does that have to do with a blastula?
    [23:14] Then We made the Nutfah into a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood), then We made the clot into a little lump of flesh, then We made out of that little lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh,

    Saif, seriously, this is a very simplistic little story that was probably the best that these desert dwellers could manage and all credit to them for trying to understand things but if you would please take one hour to read an actual biology textbook you will be astounded to read about how sperm and ovum combine and begin to multiply. The real story that we know today is very complicated and much more amazing than the awful story that you presented from the Koran.

    If you keep trying and trying to find some scientific knowledge from a book that is a thousand years old just because someone told you that there are miracles hidden there, you will waste your time looking for something that isn’t there. After years of this unfortunate pursuit you will realize that you were looking in the wrong place. Don’t lose time. Move forward not backward.

    I have tried to answer your points with respect for you Saif. I want to respect people if they are good people with good ideas. If someone has bad ideas then I do not have to respect bad ideas. If a person has bad ideas and acts badly because of those bad ideas then I will think that they are a bad person.

    Understand?

    People -> respect,

    Ideas -> Maybe respect or maybe no respect.



    Report abuse

  • LaurieB Feb 10, 2016 at 6:54 pm

    I would say thank you for trying to answer my question. But the fact that you did not answer the question and you have commented on everything else.

    I am very capable to comment on all the comments, but will spare them until we finalize my only question, for one reason only, to not deviate from the subject; in all scenarios, I shall revert back to all the points.

    You claim the Quran is written on 10 year boy’s level, but did not see you facing the Quran’s challenge. The challenge of the Quran is to produce another book similar to the Quran, and I have made it easer for you to produce only 10 verses not 6236.

    Or, you maybe accepting Arkrid Sandwich’s writings, which I honestly believe is not serious or I might be wrong and that was his best; please let me know.

    And in answering Olgun’s question, I am not going to be the judge on this. There will be natural party that we can agree on.

    The question is simple; it is to defeat the challenge on the Quran of producing like it.



    Report abuse

  • Pinball1970 Feb 11, 2016 at 8:22 am

    @Saif

    Hi Saif and thanks for staying with us!

    Thank you Pinball.

    Many posters have pointed out the conflict with what we know about
    biology and what is says in the Quran

    I wont add to that.

    The biology was an example of the Quran verses and there are much more, but that was not my point. I was and still keen about the challenge of producing similar to the Quran.
    Anyway, the answer to all the comments will be on the below link below, by Professor Keith L. Moore.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upa4BSH7ua4

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_L._Moore

    I will take one point and expand a little bit

    The Koran was written down in the 7thC CE and bible is believed to
    have been written down in 650BCE

    The source of the Quran, Bible and the Torah are one and to the surprise of many, Muslim do believe in all of them, but believe the bible and Torah was not reserved and many changes made to them by men. That is why you will find many similarities between them. All of the prophets mentioned we believe were delivering the same message to different people across the eras.



    Report abuse

  • @Saif

    I am sure you know full well that you are asking for the preverbal pound of flesh Saif!!!

    As a counter challenge……I ask that you write ten poems and let us judge them to see if the words of another person can be beaten let alone a ‘gods’.



    Report abuse

  • Olgun
    Feb 13, 2016 at 1:43 pm

    Judging works of literature can very much a matter of taste and personal pre-conceptive cognitive biases.

    I would suggest that if we were to compare the intellectual level of the Quoran writers objectively, with let’s say with the standards of “The Hitch-Hikers’ Guide to the Galaxy”, or “The Restaurant at the end of the Universe”, the inadequacies of vision of the Quoran writers, become obvious!



    Report abuse

  • Saif:

    The challenge of the Quran is to produce another book similar to the
    Quran, and I have made it easer for you to produce only 10 verses not
    6236.

    Similar in what way, Saif?

    In being old?

    In being beautifully written?

    In being wrong about embryology?

    In being wrong about embryology in 10 verses?

    I asked you above why you think these verses are so special, but you haven’t replied. But actually, it doesn’t matter. This is why.

    The Quran could be …

    the oldest book in the world. It isn’t, but that doesn’t
    matter, because out of all the millions of books ever written, one
    has to be the oldest. But that doesn’t prove that it was divinely inspired.

    the most beautifully written book in the world. For my money it isn’t
    (as Alan4discussion has pointed out, beauty is subjective), but
    again, it doesn’t matter. Because out of all the millions of books
    ever written, we might all have one that we think is the most beautifully written. Again, it doesn’t prove it was divinely inspired. (And since none of us has read or ever will read every book that’s ever been written, it’s a meaningless claim to make in any case.)

    the only book to display a lack of understanding of embryology in 10
    verses
    , but why should that be any better or worse than displaying a
    lack of understanding of embryology in 10 words or 10 chapters? And
    again, it wouldn’t prove it was divinely inspired.

    the only book ever to write about embryology at all. As I’ve already pointed out, it isn’t (it isn’t even the earliest), and the ’embryology’ in the Quran is no better than that of the Ancient Greeks and considerably worse than any actual biology textbook, but again, even if it were the only one, it would not prove that it was divinely inspired.

    the only book ever written to be exactly the same as the Quran.
    Again, it wouldn’t prove that it was divinely inspired. The Odyssey,
    the speeches of Cicero, Shakespeare’s Hamlet, the Book of Kells, the
    Bhagavad Gita and doubtless countless others could also claim to be
    unique in some respect. So what? It proves absolutely nothing.

    So we can save Laurie B and everyone else the trouble of seeking out chunks of other books that are “similar” to the Quran, whatever you may or may not mean by that. Purely for the sake of argument we could say, ‘Ok, then, Saif. Let’s say that the passage you’ve quoted from the Quran is absolutely unique in every respect’ – you still wouldn’t be one jot closer to proving that it was divinely inspired and that the god you believe in actually exists.

    And if it really had been revealed by a divine creator of the universe, you would surely expect that creator to demonstrate a rather better understanding of his subject. I wouldn’t often link to PZ Myers these days, but this is from back in the day when he was a sound debunker of pseudoscience:

    http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/11/23/islamic-embryology-overblown-b/



    Report abuse

  • I have no intention of playing your sick little contest game like a puppet. I don’t believe you want to exchange ideas in a productive discussion. You can see very well that I won’t engage in this so drop it now.



    Report abuse

  • Saif Al Mazrooei
    Feb 13, 2016 at 1:31 pm

    Anyway, the answer to all the comments will be on the below link below, by Professor Keith L. Moore.

    http://www.skeptical-science.com/religion/daft-claim-proof-allah-apparently-islamic-embryology/
    Dr. Keith L. Moore, Ph.D., F.I.A.C. of the Department of Anatomy, University of Toronto, Canada, has become a favorite of Islamic apologists ever since he accepted an invitation to produce a special edition of his Embryology Text Book specifically for use by Muslim students in Islamic Universities.

    To justify what he wrote, he liberally translates Arabic into terms that no Arabic speaker would consider justified, he also completely ignores the timing of phases dictated by the hadith he pretends is accurate, when in reality it is not.

    Why did he do this? Easy $$$ He was quite well paid by the Saudi government for the use of his name.

    This all has a couple of interesting additional notes …

    Moore is not a Muslim and so this evidence of a miracle did not convince him, so why should it convince us?

    The Acknowledgments for this book recognize a number of “distinguished scholars” who supported the book with time or money.

    And number 6 on the list? Osama bin Laden. (Yikes!!)

    If you buy Moore’s sixth edition University textbook called “The developing human”, he actually directs his readers to read an essay by Basim Musallam, who shows that the Koran merely echoes what Greek doctor “Galen” wrote 450 years earlier. (B. Musallam (Cambridge, 1983) Sex and Society in Islam. p. 54)

    Your pasted quote word for word which I debunked earlier (Alan4discussion- Feb 11, 2016 at 6:51 am) is on the above link in this comment and repeated below!

    We created man from an essence of clay, then We placed him as a drop of fluid in a safe place. Then We made that drop of fluid into a clinging form, and then We made that form into a lump of flesh, and We made that lump into bones, and We clothed those bones with flesh, and later We made him into other forms. Glory be to God the best of creators.

    Seriously, that’s it. You have just mastered all of developmental biology, as taught by Mohammed.

    @ my link – its hilarious, and truly does illustrate how completely decoupled true believers can be from reality, or as PZ puts it …

    Only a blinkered fanatic could turn that mush into an overwrought, overextended, overblown, strained comparison with legitimate modern science. Tzortzis’s paper is risible crackpottery.



    Report abuse

  • Phil

    I believe this is what Nostradamus was all about and used it to con the stupid and make his way up the social ladder. His ability at arithmetic and his understanding of language gave him the skills to put together the best possible chance that his prophesies would be translated to fit the event. Many translation of just one word gave it the odds. Forget the predictions themselves. I don’t think he believed them at all. He was just a genius at this type of particular slight of hand and he used it and that was why he got in trouble with the church. He would have been able to make up the verses Saif is after and he would know that they would be equally unreliable enough to translate in many ways depending on the needs of the translator.



    Report abuse

  • My comment above, 197653 should be addressed to Saif and in my anger I forgot to label it correctly.

    Let Saif’s comments stand as a clear example of how the mind of a fundamentalist works. With all of the atrocities that are racking up daily that can be attributed directly to his perverse religion, including the example in the article above of an innocent child cutting off his own hand as a result of his intense mind crippling indoctrination and all Saif wants to do is play a contest game so that he can experience the personal thrill of tricking one haremia into what he considers a disgrace.

    It’s a pity really, because people like him send the moderates running away in fear and disgust. Saif’s society needs all the help it can get right now before the whole thing goes down in flames. Much of it has already done so in full view of the whole world, and yet, He just wants to play nasty mind games.

    What I want to say is shame on you. Abe inta Saif, abe. I think you’ve lost an important opportunity here but it’s your choice after all.



    Report abuse

  • 92
    Pinball1970 says:

    @saif All of the prophets mentioned we believe were delivering the same message to different people across the eras.

    Yes I was trying to tell you that many of those characters have no historical evidence to support them at all.
    They are made up tribal myths



    Report abuse

  • 93
    Stardusty Psyche says:

    LaurieB – Saif’s comments stand as a clear example of how the mind of a fundamentalist works… It’s a pity really, because people like him send the moderates running away in fear and disgust

    Unless the moderate discovers the factual content of the texts, interprets the Qur’an to be the perfect word of Allah, and seeks to emulate Muhammad as the most exemplary man revealed in the Sunnah and even the LoM. This process is typically mislabeled as “radicalization”. There is nothing radical or extreme about, for example, the Islamic State, relative to a plain reading of the texts. Expansionist conquest, slavery, rape, extortion, killing women and homosexuals and adulterers and apostates, amputations, and theocracy are mainstream Qur’an and Sunnah, just basic Muhammadism.

    There is no such thing as moderate fundamentalist Islam. Moderate Muslims who do not fully practice the Islam of the texts, yes, but not moderate Islam.

    This concern, of driving mass numbers of moderate Muslims into fundamentalism, is part of the “nothing to do with Islam” inanity so often heard from our liberal friends.



    Report abuse

  • Or, you maybe accepting Arkrid Sandwich’s writings, which I honestly believe is not serious or I might be wrong and that was his best; please let me know.

    And in answering Olgun’s question, I am not going to be the judge on this. There will be natural party that we can agree on.

    The question is simple; it is to defeat the challenge on the Quran of producing like it.

    I judge Arkrid’s writings to be far superior to your excerpts from the Quran. Challenge defeated. Perhaps others would like to give their opinion.



    Report abuse

  • @Stardusty Psyche

    Feb 14, 2016 at 6:21 p

    I know more moderate Muslims than I can possibly count. I also know a fair number of fundamentalists as well. Most of the fundamentalists know their book but a few knew less than I do. I never knew any of the moderates to know much of anything from the Koran. Not only that, they also think it’s boring to discuss it at all. They actually like to talk about things that every other person in this world talk about. Family, politics, gossip, entertainment, etc. Moderate Muslims have suffered from the actions of the fundamentalists amongst them for years now. They know very well what is at stake here. Every family has been effected by this disaster including my own. Fundamentalists of all stripes give themselves away immediately in conversation by displaying the exact tactics as you see in the comments above. They have an agenda and have lost all sense of what it means to have a rational productive discussion. This is absolutely not the case with the moderates.



    Report abuse

Leave a Reply

View our comment policy.